[richidoo]

In the early 50s when bebop was the new teenage rebellion music, cool jazz was the easy drinking alternative to the white lightning of NY bebop. Stan Kenton was the biggest name, having been on the hit parade over the previous decade, and many great jazz players came out of his stable. By then he was exploring the new harmonies with abandon, ever hear City of Glass? Gerry Mulligan started a combo with Chet Baker that went to the top of the popular charts with My Funny Valentine and turned the jazz world upside down. Brubeck and Desmond took full advantage and followed Mulligan to the top. Soon there was a cool jazz revolution underway across the country. Andre Previn Trio's My Fair Lady was a huge hit. Some were quick flashes like Herb Geller and Chris Connor, some were ground breaking stylists like Ferguson and Rosolino, some were tragic stories like Bud Brisbois and Chet Baker.

I have a bunch on vinyl because my father liked it when he was a teenager. He told me a lot of stories about seeing various west coast acts in NY/CT area in mid 50/60s. I studied with a former lead trumpeter with Kenton, Pete Rugolo and Boyd Rayburn who also had many great stories about those days. I learned Chet Baker solos when I was starting to play jazz, they are like the Bach 2 part inventions for jazz trumpet. And many hours listening to Brubeck, Mulligan, Manne, early Ferguson bands, Shorty Rogers, Brownie's Pacific LP, Baker Quartet, and other bands. I think it is an influence that is missing in a lot of new generation jazz musicians that came up knowing only New York traditions. In my music school everyone dismissed Brubeck as a weak pianist and few ever heard anything by Mulligan so I enjoyed it on my own. None had ever heard any early Brubeck.

I found that the music has a different kind of soul, easier for the listener to participate, while sometimes (not always) just as deep and fulfilling as NY jazz.

If you don't like west coast jazz go ahead and unload, but please stay on topic.
Rich

[jimdgoulding]

I do.  Like jazz from every continent not just coast but West Coast jazz where I began and my affection is strong.  Saw Chris Conner in Chicago and some dude in the audience says "How about Something Cool", and Ms. Conner has to remind this guy, "Uh, that was June Christy".  That probably happened more than once.  So she sang All About Ronnie and I positively melted.  Man, I love that song!  Even if it is about another woman.

[CSI]

What's not to like? Of course, I've spent nearly all my life in Southern California and spent the summer of my High School Sr. year hanging out at the Lighthouse in Hermosa Beach (they'd let underage fans in as long as you sat in the back and didn't try to order alcohol). So I have it in my DNA. I remember our integrated jazz club in H.S. (rare for the Fifties but no big deal to us). I have a vivid memory of a young black girl from our club seeking me out in a crowd of me and my other white surfer buddies to tell me that Bird had died. What a sad day. Funny thing was, the West Coast vs. East Coast controversy was alive even then. But not for us in the Poly High Jazz Club. We listened to and loved it all. I still do.

[jimdgoulding]

Nice trip, CSI.  I'm almost there.

[neobop]

I think the east vs west thing is more of an approach and feel than a fundamental difference. West tends to be looser, more relaxed. East tends to be more structured and disciplined. This is most evident in the rhythm section and resulting horn solos on top of that. Piano-less Lee Konitz is a good example.

Nothing drives like a tight rhythm section. East coasters feel that soloists  have plenty of freedom with the piano only comping behind them. If the soloist gets lost or misses a change, everybody knows. A west coast horn player, sans piano can go beyond the boundaries of cord structure or conventional tonality. I think there's a difference between out and wrong. This is not to say that Konitz was a second rate player. Each musician can only be evaluated within the framework he or she is playing. It's not at all surprising that Berkeley students would be critical of west coast playing in general. Take Five wasn't exactly revolutionary. It was akin to having a hit movie. That's also not necessarily a bad thing imo. In the dance band I used to double on french horn. I had to stop cause I couldn't just switch from trumpet. The intervals are tougher on horn and I'd start stinking up the place. So the horn stayed in the orchestra and the trumpet or alto horn was ok for the jazz band. We didn't have a valve trombone, and I probably couldn't play it anyway. The point is, I would have stunk on either coast. That's why I'm not a musician.

Over the years I've had a few friends who are prof musicians. Some are music school grads, others were guys who could play. My opinions are probably influenced by theirs. I'm not going to repeat their particular opinions. They pointed out things that would have taken me much longer to figure out on my own, if at all. Guys in music school are honing their skills and are starting to hear like a pro. I rarely listen to anything more than a quartet. All those horns make the piano player feel important, but trios and quartets are where it's at for me. We all have our likes and dislikes. That's why I tried to avoid saying X is better than Y. Critics try to tell you what to think and musicians are tooting their own horn.
neo

[jimdgoulding]

One of my desert island recordings is Checkmate by Shelly Manne and His Men and I think member Richie Kamuka is just a wonderful player of the tenor sax.  You can hear samples of this album at Amazon on page three, I believe, under Shelly Manne if you would like.  I've have always liked West Coast jazz.  Early Miles' Birth of the Cool should be considered West Coast jazz.  Ornette was located in LA when he began.  It has been a very fertile place thru the years.

[AVnerdguy]

West Coast cool for me is Teddy Edwards. Sunset Eyes says it all. I was fortunate to see him before he passed. Had heard his records for years but seeing him perform was amazing. Perhaps not as well known as some of the others but extremely talented and highly influential player and arranger.

[R_burke]

Would the CTI releases be considered latter day West Coast Jazz

[richidoo]

I agree neo, that west coast is really just another take on the same concept of "modern jazz." They all loved the same heros and strived for success in the same market. MJQ is a good example of NY's very finest cashing in on the West Coast formula.

Take Five wasn't exactly revolutionary.

It was revolutionary in time signature, audio quality, cultural popularity, and commercial success for the genre. Take Five still earns $100k/year in publishing income alone.

Would the CTI releases be considered latter day West Coast Jazz

Some of the artists of from West Coast, I think that's what matters. What do you like on CTI R_burke? They made some great records.

[blutto]

...was going to make this a tongue-in-cheek response but then I got thinking...

...so here goes...the whole idea of West Coast vs East Coast as opposed to west coast vs east coast has for me the a bit of marketing thrown into the mix....and since I'm kinda clue-less about musical theory/technique ( as in, I  may not know much about art but I know what I like kinda way ) I recognize differences but can't draw much more from it save that they are different and I either like it or not....but I do know a bit about recording technique and know a smattering of history....

....so here was the question I was originally going to pose....is Way Out West an example of what coast sound?....is it West Coast because it was done out west?....or was it so because of the players?...or was it so because of the way the session was run?....and  I ask the question in that way because way back in my memory banks is a recollection of an interview with a player ( whose name, unfortunately, escapes me ) who spoke about the differences between Blue Note and Prestige recording sessions....apparently, one of the major differences was how the session was organized....Blue Note had the money to do several run-thru sessions where the recording program was pre-edited into a tight performance ( and apparently Rudy Van Gelder prefered this approach )...Prestige, on the other hand would just get the players into the studio and just let them blow and then edit the results ( which can be a cheaper way to do things...though it also produces some subpar records which the Prestige catalog is littered with...)....

...so I guess the question is...is West/East Coast also a function of the way things were recorded? ( really don't have much knowledge of the major West Coast record/recording groups to comment intelligently )....and where does the Prestige house sound place it on the West/East axis?....

Cheers

blutto

[R_burke]

Some of the artists of from West Coast, I think that's what matters. What do you like on CTI R_burke? They made some great records.

Red Clay, Sunflower and Prelude are among my favorites, but I like almost all of them.

[jimdgoulding]

...was going to make this a tongue-in-cheek response but then I got thinking...

...so here goes...the whole idea of West Coast vs East Coast as opposed to west coast vs east coast has for me the a bit of marketing thrown into the mix....and since I'm kinda clue-less about musical theory/technique ( as in, I  may not know much about art but I know what I like kinda way ) I recognize differences but can't draw much more from it save that they are different and I either like it or not....but I do know a bit about recording technique and know a smattering of history....

....so here was the question I was originally going to pose....is Way Out West an example of what coast sound?....is it West Coast because it was done out west?....or was it so because of the players?...or was it so because of the way the session was run?....and  I ask the question in that way because way back in my memory banks is a recollection of an interview with a player ( whose name, unfortunately, escapes me ) who spoke about the differences between Blue Note and Prestige recording sessions....apparently, one of the major differences was how the session was organized....Blue Note had the money to do several run-thru sessions where the recording program was pre-edited into a tight performance ( and apparently Rudy Van Gelder prefered this approach )...Prestige, on the other hand would just get the players into the studio and just let them blow and then edit the results ( which can be a cheaper way to do things...though it also produces some subpar records which the Prestige catalog is littered with...)....

...so I guess the question is...is West/East Coast also a function of the way things were recorded? ( really don't have much knowledge of the major West Coast record/recording groups to comment intelligently )....and where does the Prestige house sound place it on the West/East axis?....

Cheers

blutto

I would say so.  If you listen to albums from Contemporary and Concord Jazz, for example, the sound is mellower and more refined than Blue Note's which lean more toward brash and vivid.

[lonewolfny42]

Good intro about West Coast Jazz....on YouTube...

[richidoo]

The original record labels for west coast jazz were Fantasy, Pacific Jazz, EmArcy (Mercury), Capital, and later Columbia for mid and late period Brubeck. Richard Bock founded Pacific Jazz Records and make a lot of the important records in the genre. He had a successful career with pop and legit artists later, but it all started with Mulligan '53. By then Brubeck was well recorded on half dozen records and had been touring for 4 years. But, as most melodious jazz soloists do, Desmond idolized Baker and quoted Mulligan tunes in his solos frequently. The spiritual power in the music of early Mulligan Quartet is intense.

Concord Jazz was started in the 80s. My, have they grown since those early days! They are based in California, but did not really specialize in west coast style jazz which was long dead when the label started. They had artists of all types from all over the country. Pablo was another west coast based label that recorded mostly big name east coast names in the 70s. 

CTI's Freddie Hubbard recordings were not west coast jazz style. But CTI did record Chet Baker and Paul Desmond with NY musicians and modern, isolated recording style in the 70s. I wouldn't say that these are west coast style music either, but they are some of the best recordings of those west coast heros, musically and sonically.

[lonewolfny42]

With the mention of CTI.....a very good recording from 1971...."California Concert: The Hollywood Palladium (CTI Records 40th Anniversary Edition)"

[jimdgoulding]

Tuning up The Artist Selects- Gerald Wilson big band with Harold Land, Joe Pass, Carmel Jones, Richard 'Groove' Holmes, Teddy Edwards and others (EMI).  Speaking of which, Buddy Collette, Bud Shank and Curtis Amy.  West Coast enough for ya?  Had one of GW's albums on which some of these tunes originally appeared in the sixties when I was in the service.  Good times.

[hifitommy]

i was at a michael franks (he does honor some of the greatsin his songs) concert and someone yelled out: "play 'my attorney bernie' " which of course was done by dave frishberg. 

<"Saw Chris Conner in Chicago and some dude in the audience says "How about Something Cool">

i have been fortunate here in  LA to have seen some of the greats at the jazz bakery and other venues.  ahmad jamal, oscar browne jr., bobby dorough, frishberg, and blossom dearie among others. 

chuck niles, one of our jazz best disc jockeys (now deceased) was MCing a gig at the lighthouse and in the line to see the group playing was stan kenton. 

i went down and volunteered at KKJZ, then KLON, and met chuck, sam fields, and the others.  while i was there one day, i got to meet and shake hands with stanley turrentine when he dropped in.  pretty cool.

[richidoo]

I used to enjoy listening to Chuck on KLON. He still had the old west coast jazz spirit in him. Remember Back to Balboa reunion concert, I guess that was 1991?

[jimdgoulding]

Just remembered a favorite west coast album from jr high days, My Fair Lady.  You westies know who was on it, right?  On Contemporary, I believe.

[jjc1]

You have to give Brubeck and Desmond credit for spreading the West Coast sound by touring so much. My first exposure to jazz was at Gergetown U. in D.C. when the  Brubeck Quartet performed there in 1959 or 60. A magical night! It's been jazz,jazz, more jazz ever since.