Kind Of Sad

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catluck

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Kind Of Sad
« on: 25 Apr 2023, 03:02 pm »
Some time ago, I recall Clayton expressing that he didn't want to design/sell expensive speakers just for rich guys.  Sadly, it now appears that SA's "cheapest" speaker is almost $8,000.  Perhaps it's more a statement on my personal financial condition but $8,000, well, seems like out-of-reach for many. Makes me all the more grateful to own the Sapphire which continues to amaze.  I realize the tweet may no longer be available but is SA unable to design and build a $5,000 speaker comparable to the Sapphire?

DaveWin88

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #1 on: 25 Apr 2023, 04:51 pm »
Unfortunately Clayton can only offer the flagship speaker at this time? hence the price tag. Thanks to the powers to be (bums running the joint world wide) Other speakers I would imagine are in the works. I would like to see the grills easy to take off :) maybe magnetic. Maybe a renewed M6ish with an dipole tweeter like the mundorf. Not cheap though. Btw I'm absolutely loving my M6's at the moment.



Audiosaurusrex

Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #2 on: 26 Apr 2023, 12:06 am »
After reading this I went back to see my invoice from 2019 for my M3's in Sepele. They were $4390 delivered. While I am in love with them and won't sell anytime soon, I'm not sure I would pull the trigger again. They are totally worth more, but everything else in the world is so much more expensive. Now that I have a grandson, I guess my perspective has changed. :scratch:

kd4ylq

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #3 on: 26 Apr 2023, 12:44 am »
The value of your money has gone down the toilet - no need to guess why - so don't be shocked when the dollar cost to buy things goes to the moon. It's not rocket science!

AllanS

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #4 on: 26 Apr 2023, 02:09 am »
Pure speculation but I wouldn’t be surprised if prolonged supply chain problems and Clayton’s illness and recuperation has them focusing on two closely related models they can predictably build while sorting out the future.  I’m thankful I got my M4s when I did.

Rocket

Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #5 on: 26 Apr 2023, 07:40 am »
Hi Guys,

Same here in Australia. Everything is so much more expensive and my salary hasn't gone up either lol. I have a really nice system including Spread Spectrum Technologies SOA and Ambrosia components. I could never afford to buy them again...

Cheers Rod

Mr. Big

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #6 on: 26 Apr 2023, 01:52 pm »
Any business has to work with what they can secure. If at the moment due to illness and all that caused for Spatial Audio, this may be how they get back up with the parts they have secured. I would imagine that down the road the models will expand again to cover more price ranges that is just good business.

I had a friend who was traveling and an audiophile with an extensive $$$$$ system and he sat and listened to my M3's Sapphires, and he said these are really good, they are not bright but every open like a panel speaker. The openness would take adjustment from anyone who owned box speakers only and the openness would sound brighter to them. He did agree that they make music sound present in the room. His head was bopping and his foot was tapping as he was enjoying what he heard. he said the size of my loft is 12' wide only he said they work very well and without me having a wall behind where I sit he said no wall bounce to affect the sound or imaging. Bass he said was really good and said it be even stronger if I was in a normal room with a wall behind me, but he said it is so defined and impactful when on the recording, he did notice if a recording had less bottom end the speaker was not adding it, he said that is excellent speaker design. So what I paid for them they were certainly a good value, his speakers are $30,000, so for him to enjoy them says a lot about Spatial Audio Loudspeakers.

RonN5

Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #7 on: 26 Apr 2023, 03:18 pm »
Just as a general comment, it appears that speakers overall have gone up 20-40% since the beginning of covid...especially those that are still made in the USA.....and the strong demand post covid may have allowed some to tilt their offerings to the higher price, more profitable models...especially if they were short on labor to keep volumes up.

As for the M3 Sapphire (which I own), it was listed at $5500 for at least 9 months...and then no longer offered.  I suspect that one of the issues may have been that Peerless increased the minimum order quantity....maybe because their costs went up and maybe because Canton and some other big speaker makers decided to use them.

What made the Sapphire unique was the low crossover to the mid/tweet while still maintaining top end detail without harshness.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Spatial come out with a $5k or under model but with a 3 way design...time will tell.

Given the all around excellent reviews of the speaker, it has been surprising to see them being offered on the resale market for $3500 or less...on the other hand, if you didn't save the box and packaging, which would cost at least $500 to replace and if your speakers aren't in 9/10 condition...it's gonna hurt when if you decide to try something else.

As for the openess/brightness...I've found that you can easily dial in the sound you prefer by adjusting the tilt as well as the toe in.


kenreau

Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #8 on: 26 Apr 2023, 04:33 pm »
Just as a general comment, it appears that speakers overall have gone up 20-40% since the beginning of covid...especially those that are still made in the USA.....and the strong demand post covid may have allowed some to tilt their offerings to the higher price, more profitable models...especially if they were short on labor to keep volumes up.


The annual composite inflation rates have been close to ~10% per year the past few years, so that's in line.  Some things like gasoline/energy have doubled since the current administration has curtailed domestic energy production.  Meat, eggs and other main staples have gone up significantly higher than the average as well.  It's unfortunate, but still first world problems.

lazbisme

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #9 on: 26 Apr 2023, 06:15 pm »
"current administration has curtailed domestic energy production"

So, you would increase that in order to increase the rate of temperature/climate change? I prefer to leave a habitable planet for the future, even if it means paying more for material things.

Tangram

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #10 on: 26 Apr 2023, 08:01 pm »
If you think Spatials are expensive in the U.S., do a quick Canadian dollar price conversion. Those $8K speakers are C$11K. Our dollar is pretty low right now, thanks to the profligate spending of the current government.

lazbisme

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #11 on: 26 Apr 2023, 08:07 pm »
This could turn into a political platform at this rate. Let's let it be a Spatial audio platform and leave off the allusions to political leanings. Please.

VinceT

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #12 on: 26 Apr 2023, 08:23 pm »
How much petroleum products are used in speaker componet manufacturing...LOL  Sorry could not resist  :lol:

Jazzman53

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #13 on: 26 Apr 2023, 09:41 pm »
Being a long-time designer and builder of world class hybrid ESL's, I pondered starting my own speaker company but I decided against if for various reasons.

Aside from my age (70), I came to realize how overhead, warranty, product liability, employee pensions, etc... would quickly balloon the selling pricing to 5X the actual material and touch labor costs. 

Unlike my ESLs, Spatial speakers are relatively simple and the materials not so expensive.  With moderate woodworking skills and a parts list, you could build a pair for 1/5 the commercial price. 

Just a thought... 

Daryl Zero

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #14 on: 26 Apr 2023, 09:44 pm »
At the risk of trying to be neutral here, I think the biggest problems with the supply chains started during the pandemic. I've heard that the Covid-19 virus considers itself an independent.

adminRH

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #15 on: 27 Apr 2023, 01:38 pm »
Let's let it be a Spatial audio platform and leave off the allusions to political leanings. Please.

Well said, thanks!  :thumb:

mrotino332

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #16 on: 27 Apr 2023, 01:52 pm »
I honestly feel the X5s when I purchased them three years ago were an excellent value.  They were $6000 at the time and if you look at the retail cost of the parts alone would be over $3000 just in parts alone which is unheard of.  The Beyma AMT tweeters cost about 600 each x 2, each 12 inch driver costs about 250 each x 4, the plate amps probably 300 each x 2.  Then add the crossover parts, imported ultralam baffle, woodworking, other parts, assembly, overhead, etc. and no dealer mark up.

I believe most high end speakers parts to retail price is around 1:5 and maybe even less.  Claytons X5 at that time was probably a little more than 1:2.
 
I honestly don't know how Clayton even made money on those speakers at that time and on the phone he alluded to that as well.  That is why he probably had to increase the prices shortly after as they were priced too low to make money.
That's just my opinion and he probably gets the parts a little cheaper but maybe not much cheaper if ordered in volume.

Mr. Big

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #17 on: 27 Apr 2023, 02:19 pm »
This is got zip to do with politics so let's not stain this great site as sadly happens in today's world.

But it does have everything to do with Clayton being in business, staying in business, and making a fair profit. In this day and age when $15,000 speakers are called a bargain, Clayton's prices of today are still more affordable and offer better sound quality in many cases. I would guess when things get back to normal for them there will be a lower-priced version.

mick wolfe

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #18 on: 27 Apr 2023, 04:27 pm »
I agree with most that's been said in this thread. Manufacturer's who sell direct to customer have to come up a formula or ratio that keeps them in business. But it's important to note that the 5:1 ratio mentioned would only seem to apply to manufacturers who still go through a dealer network on the way to the consumer. So on the face of it, yes, the direct to customer approach should offer a much better value at least in theory. Only time will tell if Clayton is able to offer a product at more of an entry level price point. Maybe it just isn't in the cards at this point  :scratch:

Tyson

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Re: Kind Of Sad
« Reply #19 on: 27 Apr 2023, 05:01 pm »
I agree with most that's been said in this thread. Manufacturer's who sell direct to customer have to come up a formula or ratio that keeps them in business. But it's important to note that the 5:1 ratio mentioned would only seem to apply to manufacturers who still go through a dealer network on the way to the consumer. So on the face of it, yes, the direct to customer approach should offer a much better value at least in theory. Only time will tell if Clayton is able to offer a product at more of an entry level price point. Maybe it just isn't in the cards at this point  :scratch:

Correct, but I would point out that going through a dealer gets you closer to 10:1 parts cost to final cost.