Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)

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skunark

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Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« on: 17 Apr 2011, 07:40 am »
James,

Any thoughts on creating a fully balanced, dual mono pre-amp?  Something with Nap's tone controls, input trim, HT passthru, rs-232, several 12v triggers?  Also with a volume control that uses at least 1/2 the dial for speakers at a 90db sensitive level?  Skip the phono pre-amp and digital inputs.. 

Jim
« Last Edit: 17 Apr 2011, 08:56 am by skunark »

James Tanner

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Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #1 on: 17 Apr 2011, 11:18 am »
James,

Any thoughts on creating a fully balanced, dual mono pre-amp?  Something with Nap's tone controls, input trim, HT passthru, rs-232, several 12v triggers?  Also with a volume control that uses at least 1/2 the dial for speakers at a 90db sensitive level?  Skip the phono pre-amp and digital inputs.. 

Jim

hi Jim,

No sorry no thoughts of a product in that direction. 

james

Alpha10

Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #2 on: 1 May 2011, 03:39 pm »
hi Jim,

No sorry no thoughts of a product in that direction. 

james

James,

Is the idea of a future BP-30 completely no, or just the ideas above?

As to me, you do have a hole in your portfolio, many people these days do have to combine home cinema with their music rig. Given that we all have some wonderful Bryston power amps at our disposal, the easiest way to do that is obviously have a processor which can hold it head up in high-end stereo (which I suppose you hope the SP3 to be..) however the next best (possibly best 2Ch solution) is to have a really good pre-amp with a good quality HT-bypass, instantly ruling out the BP-26.

Given Bryston’s usual philosophy in design, what you should end up with is a simple true balanced design, with a great volume pot, you only need a couple of inputs as the BDA can do most of your switching for you, you do not need to have all the hooks in place for phono stages (buy a BP-1.5), or an optional DAC (buy a BDA), no tone controls or displays – just the best quality 2Ch path possible with by-pass.

I was a little disappointed to see in another thread you were talking about a digital pre-amp, to me that goes against the principles you usually hold so dear of keeping the box to do just one thing as best it can? In many ways is the SP3 not a digital pre-amp already, with some added HDMI switching?

Sorry for the ramblings, but as the proud owner of the BDP/BDA combo, I just think it would be great to have the opportunity to get best possible music from it.

Cheers

James Tanner

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Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #3 on: 1 May 2011, 04:35 pm »
Hi,

Ramblings are good :thumb:

The SP3 is a digital preamp as you say but it is optimized in Digital for surround formats.

My feeling was that the world is moving towards mutiple digital sources (many Stereo and high resolution capable) and a few Analog sources (ex - Phono, Tuner, etc.) so my idea was to provide a preamp that would have - pass-through - as you say but would really be more of a combination of the BDA-1 DAC and the BP-26 in one chassis providing the best of both worlds?

Dual mono is certainly something to consider as well :thumb:

james

Alpha10

Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #4 on: 1 May 2011, 05:05 pm »
Hi,

Ramblings are good :thumb:

The SP3 is a digital preamp as you say but it is optimized in Digital for surround formats.

My feeling was that the world is moving towards mutiple digital sources (many Stereo and high resolution capable) and a few Analog sources (ex - Phono, Tuner, etc.) so my idea was to provide a preamp that would have - pass-through - as you say but would really be more of a combination of the BDA-1 DAC and the BP-26 in one chassis providing the best of both worlds?

Dual mono is certainly something to consider as well :thumb:

james

Thanks James, this "the world is moving towards mutiple digital sources (many Stereo and high resolution capable) and a few Analog sources " is my point entirely, we are on the same page there! So just a damn fine, simple (basic?), 2ch pre-amp with the BDA doing the switching  and out to the big power boys....

The bit I do not understand, given the way Bryston normally think is this " but would really be more of a combination of the BDA-1 DAC and the BP-26 in one chassis" I still feel, one box one job, was the answer? Also is this combination not already available in the BP-16 with optional DAC board fitted?

Cheers

srb

Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #5 on: 1 May 2011, 05:38 pm »
Also is this combination not already available in the BP-16 with optional DAC board fitted?

The BP-16 DAC option accepts up to 96KHz input (192KHz on the BDA-1) and does not have AES/EBU or USB digital inputs.  It also does not have balanced analog inputs or outputs like the BP-26.
 
Steve
 
 

larevoj

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Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #6 on: 4 May 2011, 02:37 am »

Dual mono is certainly something to consider as well :thumb:

james

Hi James...can you elaborate a little??  :?

James Tanner

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Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #7 on: 4 May 2011, 02:41 am »
Hi James...can you elaborate a little??  :?

Dual mono in a preamp is more marketing than performance. Our preamps operate in Class A so there is constant power delivery to both channels. You do not have the fluctuating current and voltage draw like you do in an amplifier but I do understand the appeal.

James

larevoj

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Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #8 on: 4 May 2011, 02:47 am »
Dual mono in a preamp is more marketing than performance. Our preamps operate in Class A so there is constant power delivery to both channels. You do not have the fluctuating current and voltage draw like you do in an amplifier but I do understand the appeal.

James

I understand the market demand on DAC+PRE combo or Swiss knife approach. However, folks whom pursue separates would demand a higher quality and performance returns. If the combo has a better specs/features won't it make the BP26 an obsolete?

James Tanner

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Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #9 on: 4 May 2011, 03:23 am »
I understand the market demand on DAC+PRE combo or Swiss knife approach. However, folks whom pursue separates would demand a higher quality and performance returns. If the combo has a better specs/features won't it make the BP26 an obsolete?

The BP 26 is analog only whereas the new preamp would offer some analog sources and some digital sources. I was also thinking that a nice A to D input might be nice to allow LP recording?

James

larevoj

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Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #10 on: 4 May 2011, 04:59 am »
The BP 26 is analog only whereas the new preamp would offer some analog sources and some digital sources. I was also thinking that a nice A to D input might be nice to allow LP recording?

James

Won't it make sense to move towards a DA/AD device as a upgrade from BDA-1? Just a thought...

Alpha10

Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #11 on: 4 May 2011, 06:31 pm »
I understand the market demand on DAC+PRE combo or Swiss knife approach. However, folks whom pursue separates would demand a higher quality and performance returns. If the combo has a better specs/features won't it make the BP26 an obsolete?

That was also my thoughts, except I would add Cannibalising sales of the BDA as well. I am just not sure what you are adding to your portfolio with this approach, why do you not just improve/upgrade the add-in DAC board already available for the bp26 if the combo package is what people want (adding ADC maybe, but I am not sure I see that either)? Giving you not only a better existing product with minimal work, but also an upgrade path for existing BP26 customers?

Interesting stuff this  :D

Cheers

werd

Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #12 on: 4 May 2011, 07:08 pm »
James,

Any thoughts on creating a fully balanced, dual mono pre-amp?  Something with Nap's tone controls, input trim, HT passthru, rs-232, several 12v triggers?  Also with a volume control that uses at least 1/2 the dial for speakers at a 90db sensitive level?  Skip the phono pre-amp and digital inputs.. 

Jim

If you want a dual mono just go get two bp26s and one mps2. Use both with the balance pushed to each side. Start the remote from zero and use the br2 remote to adjust.
 :icon_lol:


I would be more interested in a battery pre using lithium. :thumb:. Its the way to go in SS and digital imo..... and especially hi rez beats.

skunark

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Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #13 on: 4 May 2011, 10:57 pm »
If you want a dual mono just go get two bp26s and one mps2. Use both with the balance pushed to each side. Start the remote from zero and use the br2 remote to adjust.
 :icon_lol:


I would be more interested in a battery pre using lithium. :thumb:. Its the way to go in SS and digital imo..... and especially hi rez beats.

So add that to the list.. MPS2-B  --battery version.   Not sure what you would do about the source and amps though, maybe a large UPS? 

skunark

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Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #14 on: 4 May 2011, 11:09 pm »
A few more thoughts....

Dual-Mono: For those that have done circuit designs do understand that matching the trace length is important for critical analog signals and source synchronous digital signals.  A common rule of thumb is that a trace of six inches in length delays a signal by a nanosecond (for kHz-mHz), and just four 90 degree turns will also add one nanosecond of delay. Poor board designs can skew the two channels that can essentially have the same impact as jitter.    So a dual mono design reduces the complexity of the board design and since you have two identical, smaller boards, with matching trace lengths.    Dual-mono design is not rocket science here, and it could even lower the overall costs.   You can still do a proper balanced layout for any design, but there's always a tradeoff.

As for the balanced vs unbalanced, it's just an improvement of the noise floor.  Using a differential signal in the entire chain from the source to the amplification seems like the best route.   Is one leg more important than the other?

Volume control.. During my demo of the BP26 it was less than useful and tried balanced and unbalanced connections along with flipping from 1v to 2v,  the volume control never did more than a quarter turn.    The lack HT pass-through and source selection is also disappointing.   Once dialed in correctly, the BP26 is clearly a preamp worth twice it's price in sound, but damn that remote and volume knobs are annoying.   Since the BDP doesn't do auto volume leveling, the remote is never far from my hand when a song ends.

As for integrating a DAC, I'm guessing we will be swapping between various DACs over the years as designs improve.   As I don't mind having an integrated DAC, like I don't mind having a phono preamp integrated, it will only be for convenience.    Emotiva's XDA digital pre-amp turned a lot of heads when it was released as it was definitely an intersting idea.   A digital pre-amp seems more like a marketing trend and might be that next debate like tube vs solid state, cd vs vinyl....

« Last Edit: 5 May 2011, 03:05 am by skunark »

werd

Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #15 on: 4 May 2011, 11:47 pm »
What you get with a dual mono pre is no cross talk. This is good but since Bryston amps are dual mono or mono - what you have is a full mono system. To do this you need one hell of a nice front end source. I am talking a full out vinyl setup with a heavy platter and some major isolation and a great tracking tone arm with a beautiful cartridge.  :lol:. Other wise you are just going to hear the phase off the source and its just going sound off.

skunark

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Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #16 on: 5 May 2011, 02:23 am »
What you get with a dual mono pre is no cross talk. This is good but since Bryston amps are dual mono or mono - what you have is a full mono system. To do this you need one hell of a nice front end source. I am talking a full out vinyl setup with a heavy platter and some major isolation and a great tracking tone arm with a beautiful cartridge.  :lol:. Other wise you are just going to hear the phase off the source and its just going sound off.

You can still get cross-talk from various inputs (yes, do turn them off), but cross-talk is still a problem, but can reduce congestion.    Of course, i do try to aspire to get the best gear possible, but... money doesn't grow on trees for me.

werd

Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #17 on: 5 May 2011, 03:02 am »
You can still get cross-talk from various inputs (yes, do turn them off), but cross-talk is still a problem, but can reduce congestion.    Of course, i do try to aspire to get the best gear possible, but... money doesn't grow on trees for me.

I am talking about channel cross talk from a stereo signal input and not noise induced from closed unshielded inputs picking up crap from other sources . I would actually like to try a bdp/bda with a dual mono pre and monos and revisit it.

If you want to mimic a good dual mono pre just move your speaks further apart.

I like my pre amps non mono with zero feedback using my 14B. And yes i keep my speakers far apart. This helps with phase and gives you a better center image.

BrysTony

Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #18 on: 5 May 2011, 03:53 am »
A few more thoughts....

Dual-Mono: For those that have done circuit designs do understand that matching the trace length is important for critical analog signals and source synchronous digital signals.  A common rule of thumb is that a trace of six inches in length delays a signal by a nanosecond (for kHz-mHz), and just four 90 degree turns will also add one nanosecond of delay. Poor board designs can skew the two channels that can essentially have the same impact as jitter.    So a dual mono design reduces the complexity of the board design and since you have two identical, smaller boards, with matching trace lengths.    Dual-mono design is not rocket science here, and it could even lower the overall costs.   You can still do a proper balanced layout for any design, but there's always a tradeoff.

As for the balanced vs unbalanced, it's just an improvement of the noise floor.  Using a differential signal in the entire chain from the source to the amplification seems like the best route.   Is one leg more important than the other?

Volume control.. During my demo of the BP26 it was less than useful and tried balanced and unbalanced connections along with flipping from 1v to 2v,  the volume control never did more than a quarter turn.    The lack HT pass-through and source selection is also disappointing.   Once dialed in correctly, the BP26 is clearly a preamp worth twice it's price in sound, but damn that remote and volume knobs are annoying.   Since the BDP doesn't do auto volume leveling, the remote is never far from my hand when a song ends.

As for integrating a DAC, I'm guessing we will be swapping between various DACs over the years as designs improve.   As I don't mind having an integrated DAC, like I don't mind having a phono preamp integrated, it will only be for convenience.    Emotiva's XDA digital pre-amp turned a lot of heads when it was released as it was definitely an intersting idea.   A digital pre-amp seems more like a marketing trend and might be that next debate like tube vs solid state, cd vs vinyl....

Excellent post Skunark!  As much as I like my BP-26, the lack of HT bypass, no remote source selection and the limited volume control range are significant issues that will be solved in my next pre-amp.  I hope it is by Bryston...

Tony

werd

Re: Looking for the BP30 preamp -- :)
« Reply #19 on: 5 May 2011, 04:33 am »
Excellent post Skunark!  As much as I like my BP-26, the lack of HT bypass, no remote source selection and the limited volume control range are significant issues that will be solved in my next pre-amp.  I hope it is by Bryston...

Tony

Dude

If you want more range and better performance out of your volume control get a dual phase Torus or Bryston bit. If you look back, i posted about this a long time ago. Really not interested in looking for it. The torus fixed a lot what was wrong with the volume in the bp26. It gave me really good range and excellent low volume control. Its not the bp26 but your AC thats fixes your volume control issues amplified.

As far as HT well........  :scratch:

If