[James Tanner]

I think I'm confusing what the role of the regional dealer (US) theoretically will be.

Will there only be one dealer per state/region?

Or will there be a similar number of dealers, but one designated dealer in the region that carries the entire line, and will allow in home demos?

If there is only one dealer per state or region, I think that approach is seriously flawed.



I like the Audio Advisor approach, but only if they don't sell to customers within a certain radius of an authorized dealer.

I also think in order to be an authorized dealer, the dealer should be required to have a certain amount of gear on their floor to demo.  This doesn't mean they have to have anything in stock, they just have to be able to properly demo it and order it for customers.

Merely being an authorized dealer without any equipment to demo hardly does anyone any good IMO.

Hi Stu,

The requirement now and we instituted it about 3 months ago is that a Bryston dealer must have a minimum working system to be a dealer. We have cut back on the number of US dealers about 25% to make sure this is the case.

The region idea was more for Canada not the USA as I feel that Audio Advisors would handle the demo function for the USA in areas where we do not have an authorized dealer. Remember I am just asking for input here. 

james

[mclsound]

hi James.....i am about 1yr into hi-end audio and am currently working on my HT room,in this one yr i have had several dealings with both USA and CANADA dealers on and offline..oh yes also Britain.I think that you guys at Bryston need to rethink your stratagy..WHY??.. because the days of old have changed as of right now..the climate is changing,the gas prices are changing,everything is about change,but most of all it is WE as consumers,our change in our pockets,we are about to have much less of it and if the big companies don't start to think about us ,I am sure we will not think about them!!! This is not intended as a rude reply,just my foresight on the next few years.There is not one person out there that will pay some person $4000 more for a product,when the same product is on sale right here,or Audiogon,or Canuck..even your dealers sell there used products online.    Things are about to CHANGE,so buckle up for the ride.....This is my opinion only James,no disrespect intended.
thanks John

Hi John,

No disrespect taken and I have 3 rules in life.  One of the them is "People always act in their best own interest". I do not blame customers for searching out the lowest price and you should be able to purchase what you want where you want.

My concern is that Hi-end Stereo Hi-Fi - and especially sophisticated home theater - takes a lot of expertice to get right. I think a quality dealer offers that experience and knowledge. I can not tell you how many times I have gone to someones home and listened to their recently installed HI-End theater system and it sounds terrible.  Even the basic setup and speaker placement is wrong.

So if price becomes the only criteria for choosing a product my fear is that quality dealers (and companies) offering quality products will simply disappear because audio/video will become a commodity like fridges and stoves - A sad day but John you may be right - its over and we just don't know it yet.

james

PS -if I remember correctly John you and I and a few of the tech guys at Bryston spent many hours on the phone with you over the past year assisting you with the assembling of your system - I assume you see that as having little value?.

James,i do not see this as having anything but great value,besides not even a salesman on a dealers floor would have understood those card values........i love Bryston electronics,it was the PMC deal i have a problem with,so i will go my own way and live and learn..as will Bryston
john

[NewBuyer]

...I have 3 rules in life.  One of the them is "People always act in their best own interest"...

Ok I'll bite - what are the other two rules?

[Napalm]

[...]
Then along came the Custom Home Theater frenzy and everything changed. Now we had people in the audio business where it was more important to know how to run cables and install speakers in wall cavities than assess a quality audio setup. Many of them (no fault of their own) had no idea about quality audio or how important it is to a great audio/video presentation so most audio gear was ‘good enough’. Most speakers were there just to fill a hole. 

The result of this shift in our business though was that dedicated audio brick and mortar stores started to be left behind and the buying habits of most people shifted. [...]

Mhhh what am I doing replying to such an old posting?

Well, 2 years later I think that we might be assisting to a renewal of interest in stereo equipment, as once the HT novelty factor has faded away, we can see that it rather failed to deliver to its initial promises. Yes, it will definitely enhance your experience in watching the hockey game or the latest horror/action/sci-fi movie, but that's about all of it.

Music is a joke unless you're ready to spend $15000 for the audio part alone (for us Canucks I think the least expensive way of getting there in a HT environment would be Anthem Statement D2 and P5 plus a forest of Paradigm Studio speakers). Add a good TV/projector, a blu-ray source and you're close to $20,000. Oops I forgot the subwoofers. Obviously way beyond most people would like to spend.

So what did we get instead? El-crapo receivers with matching speakers. We debated 5.1 vs. 7.1 or maybe even 11.2. We mentally calculated how many watts per dollar we get and ordered from the internet site with the best deal. How do we do now? Great hockey game thrills, but no music to our ears.

Not to mention the idiocy of the speaker placement in HT setups. Yes sir, we have a smaller center channel that you can place horizontally under the TV so it doesn't sit in your nose. Doesn't matter it's different than the main channels and will sit at different height. "Enhances dialogue clarity", "anchors the voice to the screen" - lame excuses to the fact that the crappy main speakers and receiver weren't able to form a stereo image at all so you needed a center channel.

Then comes the IEEE recommendation for speaker placement for 5.1 music reproduction. Of course it's different than the HT one, and it wants similar speakers on all channels. Time to lug a tower speaker in front of your TV screen so you can listen to "surround music" as it was designed. (LOL @ Kal Rubinson from Stereophile). And move the other speakers around to get the right angles. And recalibrate the room eq. And whatnot.

For what? The industry has failed to deliver any meaningful quantity of records in this format. Oh, Deutsche Gramophon has issued a couple of blu ray discs with outstanding opera recordings. They're really good, let's watch them. But let's move the speakers first as this is in the HT sound format. Bwahahaha what a joke.

How about leaving your HT system "as is" without any further attempt to fix it, and getting a really good stereo setup in a different room?

Sorry guys for the rant.

Nap. 

[Stu Pitt]

Music is a joke unless you're ready to spend $15000 for the audio part alone...

No good music under $15k worth of equipment?  I think a lot of people will disagree.

I understand what I think you're getting at and what is your main point.  HTIBs and the like are pretty much all crap.  But so is 99% of everything in big box stores.  There are some great home theater products that do music very well.  Arcam, Cambridge and NAD come to mind.  There's a lot more.

I'm not a fan of surround sound.  My movie and TV program tastes don't benefit much.  If I was an action, war movie, or sci-fi fan I'd probably feel differently.

I have a 2 channel rig that costs well under $15k.  I can tell you that the music coming out of it is pretty far from being a joke.  My current system is the most expensive I've ever owned.  I've had full systems that cost less than my B60 alone.  Noone of those sounded like a joke either.

[Phil A]

That was quite a rant   I do feel you can get good 2-channel or multi-channel for less than $15k.  A good Blu-Ray source and projector has come way down in price

[Napalm]

No good music under $15k worth of equipment?

Sorry folks, my fault, I should had been more precise: No good *surround* *music* system under $15k. And you'll still have to live with a tower speaker right in front of you (according to the IEEE folks). And you'll be listening to one of the few surround SACDs that the "industry" has produced. Why bother.

Stereo is indeed affordable and non room-invasive and that's my main interest these days.

I gave up "upgrading" and "tuning" the HT. The Maple Leafs won't play any better if I add a second subwoofer 

Nap. 

[95Dyna]

I gave up "upgrading" and "tuning" the HT. The Maple Leafs won't play any better if I add a second subwoofer 

Nap. 

I don't know napalm.  If you come down to Pittsburgh you'll find everybody has a second subwoofer.

[ralph1950]

Napalm,  I do believe GOOD sound is in the ear of the beholder.  HT will not pass and is not a gimic!  I work with many systems from different companys (Bryston being my personal favorite) and yes there are cheapies out there, but to an average person, it is fantastic.  It's not how much a systen costs, but how well it is put together.  Now, would a 7500. dollar amp sound better than a 15000. dollar amp?   It depends on what the manafacture puts into the amp, how it is set up and the room.   It also depends on the type of music you listen to.  But then again, every one has their own opinion on the mattter!

[Napalm]

I don't know napalm.  If you come down to Pittsburgh you'll find everybody has a second subwoofer.

Mhhh I see, how do you guys deal with it, do you divide your basement into two insulated sections? Or will it work using a single large cavity?

BTW I'm using these plans:

http://home.comcast.net/~klone-audio/page13-12Shiva1.html

Thanks,
Nap. 

[1ZIP]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all this feedback it is very helpful.

I am liking the idea of fewer dealers and appointing 'regional' dealers that we work closer with to offer our customers better accessibility to our products.

james

That depends upon the size of the "Region".  A quick check of your web site says there are no dealers in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming. one in Oregon, one in Utah and four listed  in WA.  I would doubt if any of those in WA have a full system or even sell retail for that matter.  That all amounts to a very large part of the U.S.   Even with the current representation it's far from acceptable accessibility to the customer, and now a "Regional" approach??   

Bryston is looking more and more like a California and East coast market.

[Phil A]

Idaho and Montana do of course border Canada and other states.  It is a geographic fact that the population in many western states is not the same density as California or the East Coast.  Several years back when I visited Arizona, I could not believe the space between populated areas in many parts (nothing for miles and miles and miles).  It's not only audio equipment that is not as readily available, there are other commodities as well.  I know people who even live in the eastern part of West Virginia, who in order to get any decent shopping for anything need to drive 35 minutes to Winchester, VA (which although it has been built up in recent years is hardly a shopping mecca) to be able to get virtually anything and that area of West Virginia is certainly not even remotely like areas out west.  Where they live, it is about 15 minutes to a small grocery store and there is not much else available.

[Phil A]

Any business needs a certain populaton/income per capita combination to survive - i.e.  - http://www.thefinanceresource.com/free_business_plans/free_car_audio_store_business_plan.aspx

Opening a high end audio store, maintaining inventory and paying commercial rents is not cheap.  I remember reading about 10 years back that the average high end shop has net profit margins of 3-8% and that was long before some things were not as readily available online and the recession.  If someone is putting in the kind of hours that retail, delivery and set-up of equipment involve, they need to be in an area that can support them making the business a going concern.  There's probably less high end retailers today than there was 10 years ago and there's also probably not a ton of people willing to invest in something like that vs. other businesses that have higher profit margins and are less susceptible to recession problems.

[droht]

Napalm,  I do believe GOOD sound is in the ear of the beholder.  HT will not pass and is not a gimic!

I agree that HT is not a fad, rather I think it is still in it's infancy.  I think manufacturers and retailers need to kind of reverse engineer the 2 channel part of the hobby.  Sell the 5.1 (or whatever) set up but then highlight how it can be used as a good old-fashioned 2.0 stereo as well.  Work to optimize the MP3 player as a source.  Then hope that if you can get people started on better sound than computer speakers or car stereo you may see the 2 channel part of the hobby bounce back a little.

[1ZIP]

Phil;
I hear everything your saying and yes MT and ID border other states, like ND-none, SD-1, WY-none, Utah-1 then there is NV-1.  NV is interesting since there is a lot of disposable income in Vegas, yet no dealer.  Then there is Canada, Saskatchewan-1, Alberta-7, BC-6.  The latter two are somewhat of a mystery considering the population density is probably the same as the upper Western states.

True the population density of the upper west and PNW are far less the the East, but it is is not as thinly populated as one would think, and I can guarantee you that the folks living in mid-eastern MT and other remote areas are just as appreciative of fine audio and music a those East of the Mississippi.

The upshot of all this is that it's okay to do away with one quarter of your dealers and go to a regional approach as long as it makes coverage sense.  Part of the reason there may be low sales in some areas is because nobody has heard of Bryston, people will buy what's good and available.  Almost all the high end gear seems to represented out here except Bryston.  I have a lot of people ask me about my gear and want to know where to get it and the answer is, drive 4 hours to Portland, go up to Vancouver and deal with duty etc. or book a flight to Salt Lake. Frankly, Bryston is doing a disservice to existing and potential customers by not having some customer oriented coverage in place. 

If I had it to do all over again, based upon availability, I would not have gone down the Bryston path.  It would have been far easier and less irritating to go with other available high end gear.   Even a West coast service center would be an improvement!

[Phil A]

It is a combination of income as well as population density.  While, this does not tell the whole story, as it is by state vs. county for example, Idaho and Montana ranked 41 and 42 - http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/290.html

The other issue is beyond the control of a company.  There are only so many dealers and some have been squeezed out and those that remain may be loyal to a particular brand and may not wish to expand with an additional brand or carry more of it.  I know of a dealer who probably has 60-65% of what is on his floor belonging to a particular brand (not Bryston) and was even approached that audio company a one point of opening another store exclusive to that brand.  From the dealer's point of view, he is making a living that satisfies him from what he has and he has limited floor space.  I'm sure Bryston as well as other companies have stores which they would like to become dealers but the matter is not their choice.  The trend also has been with retail outlets failing more home theater installers with locations in industrial parks and more geared towards installation and packaging of systems both with existing homeowners and builders.  That's why you see companies like Bryston having products geared towards those businesses.

[Phil A]

Incidentally, if you go to stereo411.com and look a Nevada, they list 5 dealers in the while state and apparently 4 in the Vegas area - http://www.stereo411.com/dealer/locator.xml?objectID=6364d3f0f495b6ab9dcf8d3b5c6e0b0132&open=region

While, it may not be all inclusive, it does show a finite amount of places for a company to place their product, and, as noted, it is not something the company has a choice in.  Some dealers don't like Bryston due to the 20 yr. warranty.  They think the warranty should be shorter and only transferred when you buy used equipment through them.  They don't like the fact used Bryston with a warranty can be purchased at prices that they can't afford to match and pay their bills

[1ZIP]

All probably true.  But if finding dealers who will just represent Bryston (HT or otherwise), gear on the floor or not, is an issue then why eliminate 25% those who apparently did just that!  I would much rather drive 2 hours to an Authorized Dealer that, gear on the floor or not, at least speaks Bryston and is someone I know and can work with, than drive several more hours to a Regional Bryston Center.  A center that does a fair amount of Bryston and other business and probably couldn't care less about the individual.  You know the, "I have a lot of customers so I don't need, nor have a lot of time to deal with you", attitude.

[Phil A]

All probably true.  But if finding dealers who will just represent Bryston (HT or otherwise), gear on the floor or not, is an issue then why eliminate 25% those who apparently did just that!  I would much rather drive 2 hours to an Authorized Dealer that, gear on the floor or not, at least speaks Bryston and is someone I know and can work with, than drive several more hours to a Regional Bryston Center.  A center that does a fair amount of Bryston and other business and probably couldn't care less about the individual.  You know the, "I have a lot of customers so I don't need, nor have a lot of time to deal with you", attitude.

I can't speak about every dealer but if a dealer is only carrying a very limited amount of product and much more of a competitive product one has to wonder from the manufacturers standpoint how good they are representing the product.  I've walked into dealers who have a couple of pieces from a particular manufacturer and upon asking why you get told something to the effect that the other stuff from other manufacturers they carry at the same price points are better.  Sometimes they don't put it that nicely either.  They often do that as they may get more profit on another line or have established the other line is their store more and get incentives from that manufacturer and are looking to keep praising and selling their bread and butter vs. a real comparison.  If they sell a piece here or there and they don't have to stock much they don't care.

I know dealers who would not carry $1k CD/SACD players from a brand they carried afraid of hurting sales of more expensive things.  I have seen others who wouldn't carry similar cheaper items from brands they have (not that the items are cheap) as it takes away from what they can make more money on.  I guess the point is if you are Bryston in one of these situations do you want your product shed in a bad light for a very small amount of sales?

 I bought both of my Bryston amps lightly used for reasons as I could not hear them in a reasonable distance.  I bought the 6BSST 1st and traveled about 2 hours to pick it up from a seller on Audiogon and then decided to get the 14BSST.  One dealer would not get one in stock for me to hear, but had extra amps from his main brand which were more expensive literally sitting on a coffee table in the store not hooked up.  I was offered a discount but bought a used one on Audiogon (less than a year old several years back) for about 75% of the dealers offer.  If  I'm going to be a guinea pig then I figured I might as well get one and if some reason I decided it was not for me I can turn around and sell it for not tons different than what I paid (with price increases since I bought my amps 6-7 years back I would probably get around what I paid for them today).  I understand the dealer's capital is at risk by putting things on the floor but my capital is at risk buying something blind. 

I have no problem paying someone for their time and expenses.  The particular dealer probably carried what I would term the bare bones - e.g. preamp/ processor, at times multi-channel amp (no 3BSST), 4BSST and at times the BP26.  Never even had a Bryston surround sound set-up in the store.  The preamp/ processor would be used most often as a 2-channel preamp set-up.  If one is going to do less than that, why even keep them as a dealer.  The last time I was in the store they were at least carrying the CD player and the DAC which was an improvement.  As it is, people going into the store don't think the Bryston is set-up in a surround system as it is not as good as what is set-up.  I can't imagine them leaving with a more positive impression of Bryston for surround than when they walked in.

[Napalm]

Hmmm you guys are basically complaining that a Canadian made product is more difficult to buy in the U.S. than in Canada? Even when you have a reputable U.S. on-line shop (audio advisor)?

Let's try something new. Like getting our hands on this:

http://www.taelektroakustik.de/index.php?id=45&L=0&P=2&webgruppe=10&sorting=2048

The first successful one please report to the group 

Nap.