AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => VMPS Speakers => Topic started by: Brian Cheney on 26 May 2011, 08:40 pm
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The RM30 has been our most popular model since its introduction in 2004.
Newport is our first consumer show in several years, and I wondered what I could do to improve system performance, now that the second generation of CDWG's is standard on all our planar speakers.
As it turned out, all that was necessary was a small change from dual 6" slot-loaded passive radiators to a single side-firing, vitrified cone 10" PR with double the Xmax of the old ones. The system looks the same as the RM 30M, but its active 10" is replaced by the new passive, with suitable retuning and xover adjustments. Intro price will be $3500pr in piano black with inboard analog crossovers. The outboard analog OXO adds $450, and if you want to biamp and go digital, as we will in Newport, two versions of the DCX 2496 are available at $900 and $1600. The highly modded costlier version will be on display, biamped through Ampzilla electronics and Nuforce/Wyred4Sound DACS.
I think audiophiles will be amazed by the sonic performance of this setup. Visit us in Rm 411 and hear for yourself.
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So, let's see.... step 1 - replace the woofer with the PR, step 2, replace the previous PRs with blank plates??
Hmmm, sounds like a doable field upgrade. So, Brian, any possibilities?
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Yes, new 10" PR's are $66ea plus shipping, and we will throw in some plugs for the PR cutouts in the bottom.
Do this with the new add on CDWG's ($160 for full set) and you have a substantial upgrade in performance for small bux.
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Brian,
Can you include an extra pair of 10" PRs + plugs in your show load? I can pre-pay for them or we can settle up at the Show. Thanks.
I'm a few miles away from the Show hotel and will be there all weekend, so if you need any help pre, during, or post show, let me know.
You are also welcome to come by and hear my freaked-out RM30s while you're in town.
Russ
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Be happy to do so. We set up Thursday starting 1:30 at the Hilton, you're welcome to join the party.
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Brian--Thanks for keeping your old customers in mind when you make these developments!
Is there any relationship between the new PRs and the new CDWG, other than they are both coming out at the same time? In other words, are the new PRs designed to complement the sound of the new CDWGs, or are they discrete improvements, both good separately on their own?
Also, the first post makes it sound like a change to the crossover is necessary for the new PR, but the later post makes it sound like all you have to do is take out the old drivers and put in the new one. Which is correct?
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If you have the RM30C with a plugged side-firing 10" cutout, no xover change is necessary. Knock out the plug for the 10", install the PR, remove the 6" PR's and plug their cutouts, and install the CDWG's.
If you have the RM30M you must remove the 10" active, shorten the wiring (from a series/parallel to straight parallel connections for the remaining active 6.5"), add 10uF to the mid crossover ($12 to $45 per side depending on cap quality), install the 10" PR, remove the 6" PR's and plug their cutouts, install the CDWG's, and you're done.
If you have the RM30C with no side cutouts, surgery to the cabinets will be necessary. Not pleasant, but doable, since the material is only 3/4" MDF.
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If you are going from a series parallel to parallel circuit, you are doing more than just shortening the wiring (mentioned for those that are not electrically literate.) So what's the wiring? I'm thinking positive feed to parallel 6.5" woofers, then off the negative to the 10" positive with the negative going to the negative post.
The next question would be how is the additional 10uF changing the filter? It's still a first order, so how much does it raise the high-pass?
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Based on what's in my older RM30Cs, the 10uF capacitor would be added to the 2nd order midpanel high pass filter to lower the filter frequency from 280 hz to around 225 hz.
The woofer's LPF is a single coil so that filter will not change. With the 10" in place, the 6" drivers are wired in series then paralleled to the 10" for about a 6 ohm total load for the woofers. Removing the 10" driver would require rewiring the twin 6" drivers from series to parallel. This would drop the total woofer impedance to 4 ohms.
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Russ, if you have the RM30C, there is no active 10". That's the 30M, and you add the 10uF cap to compensate for the lower impedance of the circuit when the active 10" is taken out. The xover frequency does not change.
Bob, the active 6.5" are now in parallel, for a 4 Ohm load. That's plus to plus and neg to neg and both woofers.
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You're right I have the M's not the C's (doh!). Thanks for the clarification.
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It sounds like the upgrade to the RM30M will be easy to do for anyone with a soldering iron and a screwdriver, but some folks (meaning, ahem, me), might need second grade level instruction to figure out the wiring and cap mod.
Russ, do you think you can post pictures of your work when you get around to doing the upgrade?
Thanks!
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Russ, if you have the RM30C, there is no active 10". That's the 30M, and you add the 10uF cap to compensate for the lower impedance of the circuit when the active 10" is taken out. The xover frequency does not change.
Bob, the active 6.5" are now in parallel, for a 4 Ohm load. That's plus to plus and neg to neg and both woofers.
RE the cap, since it's for impedance compensation, I assume it's in series?
I'm not quite following on the woofer wiring. I get that the 6.5 inchers are parallelled, but how is the 10" (think M here) wired in? Since you mentioned series parallel, I thought the 10" was in series with the conjugate 6.5"., which would mean 6.5 neg to 10 pos. Is that not the case?
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The RM30 has been our most popular model since its introduction in 2004.
Newport is our first consumer show in several years, and I wondered what I could do to improve system performance, now that the second generation of CDWG's is standard on all our planar speakers.
As it turned out, all that was necessary was a small change from dual 6" slot-loaded passive radiators to a single side-firing, vitrified cone 10" PR with double the Xmax of the old ones. The system looks the same as the RM 30M, but its active 10" is replaced by the new passive, with suitable retuning and xover adjustments. Intro price will be $3500pr in piano black with inboard analog crossovers. The outboard analog OXO adds $450, and if you want to biamp and go digital, as we will in Newport, two versions of the DCX 2496 are available at $900 and $1600. The highly modded costlier version will be on display, biamped through Ampzilla electronics and Nuforce/Wyred4Sound DACS.
I think audiophiles will be amazed by the sonic performance of this setup. Visit us in Rm 411 and hear for yourself.
Brian is at it again.
No grass growing beneath his feet.
:thumb:
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Am I correctly following this mod? Replace an ACTIVE 10" with a 10" PR improves the performance?
I must be missing something.....
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I would be willing to convert my RM30M to the upgraded version, but I would want photographic step by step instructions. Monsterbill does, too. I suspect many RM30 owners would appreciate this bit of extra effort on Brian's part. After all, he has now made us less than perfectly satisfied with our previously wonderful speakers! :?
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I would be willing to convert my RM30M to the upgraded version, but I would want photographic step by step instructions. Monsterbill does, too. I suspect many RM30 owners would appreciate this bit of extra effort on Brian's part. After all, he has now made us less than perfectly satisfied with our previously wonderful speakers! :?
Hilarious! At least it's an inexpensive upgrade :lol:
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Am I correctly following this mod? Replace an ACTIVE 10" with a 10" PR improves the performance?
I must be missing something.....
No, it replaces the two six inch downfiring passives.
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Am I correctly following this mod? Replace an ACTIVE 10" with a 10" PR improves the performance?
I must be missing something.....
No, it replaces the two six inch downfiring passives.
cliffy has it right.
As it turned out, all that was necessary was a small change from dual 6" slot-loaded passive radiators to a single side-firing, vitrified cone 10" PR with double the Xmax of the old ones. The system looks the same as the RM 30M, but its active 10" is replaced by the new passive, with suitable retuning and xover adjustments.
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I'm not quite following on the woofer wiring. I get that the 6.5 inchers are parallelled, but how is the 10" (think M here) wired in? Since you mentioned series parallel, I thought the 10" was in series with the conjugate 6.5"., which would mean 6.5 neg to 10 pos. Is that not the case?
The active 10" is replaced by a 10" passive radiator, which obviously is not wired to anything.
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The active 10" is replaced by a 10" passive radiator, which obviously is not wired to anything.
You're missing my point. In the current 30M, the 10" is wired in some series parallel configuration. Now if the 10" is the series part, then removing it and NOT taking care of the wiring means that there is no circuit, and therefore no bass. Since Brian mentioned "shortening" the woofer wires, from a series parallel to parallel configuration" (as per an earlier response), it is logical to consider the 10" as part of the series configuration. If it were the parallel part, well then removing would just leave a series config.
I'm just trying to figure out the wiring without having to pull woofers out of my speakers.
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To answer cliffy, the single 10" PR vents the two active 6.5" more efficiently than the dual 6"PR vented the two active 6.5" PLUS the active 10". It's a case of less equals more.
It was merely a matter of determining the proper compliance of suspension and moving mass of the new PR while keeping moving mass realatively low. The new 10" PR also features increased Xmax. Try it, you'll like it.
The RM30 still does not produce first octave bass (16Hz-32Hz), but it was never designed to do so. That's where the subwoofer comes in. Most users won't feel it's necessary unless they are organ buffs. Bass drum comes through clearly on the new version, for example. Bass quality is outstanding, and the CDWG's provide excellent soundstage depth and width, with precise imaging.
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To answer Bob, in the old circuit the two 6.5" were in series with each other, and the 10" was in parallel with them for a 5.3 Ohm nominal load.
When rewired, the 10" active is gone, and the two 6.5" are in parallel with each other for a nominal 4 Ohm load Since the 6.5" each have 1.5" 4 layer voicecoils and a metal phase plug, they still have about 400W of power handling with excellent extension and dynamics.
A DVD showing installation steps, theoretical underpinnings of the change, and a musical score featuring full symphony orchestra conducted by yours truly, is packed with each upgrade kit (small extra charge, of course).
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Mhnnn...the RM1s has a 10" p/r, would this be superior in this model also?
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I was thinking along these same lines, but I was wondering what it would sound like if you replaced the two 6-1/2" PRs with drivers rather than plugging them.
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To answer cliffy, the single 10" PR vents the two active 6.5" more efficiently than the dual 6"PR vented the two active 6.5" PLUS the active 10". It's a case of less equals more.
Thank you Brian. I understand now.
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We will be making the "show" pair of RM30 Series II ($3500 retail) available to anyone to be taken home after the show. Please check with me for "special" show pricing.
They will be available in one of three versions:
ANALOG OXO = Outboard X-OVER ($450 retail) can be cap upgraded
DIGITAL OXO = Set up and tuned for the speaker and your room($900 retail)
MODDED DIGITAL OXO = ($1600 retail)
So make sure and bring your pick up or SUV on Sunday.
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Well, I have tuned and tweaked the Show pair of Series II RM30 to the best of my ability, and marvel at its performance. I don't think there will be better sound anywhere else at the Newport Hilton, just perhaps a lot of more expensive gear.
But that's the whole point. High end should be affordable, or it does no one any good. How many billionaire music lovers do you know? In 35 years I have yet to meet a one. Manufacturing very expensive gear to meet a demand that doesn't exist just exhausts your resources and makes audiophiles unhappy. It's not a syndrome I want to perpetuate.
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We will be making the "show" pair of RM30 Series II ($3500 retail) available to anyone to be taken home after the show. Please check with me for "special" show pricing.
They will be available in one of three versions:
ANALOG OXO = Outboard X-OVER ($450 retail) can be cap upgraded
DIGITAL OXO = Set up and tuned for the speaker and your room($900 retail)
MODDED DIGITAL OXO = ($1600 retail)
So make sure and bring your pick up or SUV on Sunday.
Brian has informed me that the Show Pair are Piano Black, so these will not only sound like $15k speakers, they will look like it too.
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To answer Brax, substituting active drivers for the PR's (which are the system vents) would drastically raise fundamental resonance frequency of the speaker and lower its Qt. The result is weaker bass, not stronger.
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Brian,
I was talking about replacing the 10" woofer with the PR as your new upgrade suggests, but instead of plugging the 6-1/2" PR holes, adding 2 more active drivers for a total of four 6-1/2" woofers in a double parallel wiring setup creating an 8 ohm load. Just a thought since I planned on upgrading to the 40 oz mega woofers in my RM30s leaving me with a set of extra 28oz woofers.
I do have to wait until the funds build back up a little, since I just bought another set of RM2's to fill out my 7.1 system. Looking forward to the feedback from owners that do this latest upgrade.
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To answer Bob, in the old circuit the two 6.5" were in series with each other, and the 10" was in parallel with them for a 5.3 Ohm nominal load.
When rewired, the 10" active is gone, and the two 6.5" are in parallel with each other for a nominal 4 Ohm load Since the 6.5" each have 1.5" 4 layer voicecoils and a metal phase plug, they still have about 400W of power handling with excellent extension and dynamics.
A DVD showing installation steps, theoretical underpinnings of the change, and a musical score featuring full symphony orchestra conducted by yours truly, is packed with each upgrade kit (small extra charge, of course).
OK, I got it now....
BTW - regarding first octave response, using the Rives test CD and my trusty Rat Shack meter (analog version, of course!), I can measure (and hear/ feel, for that matter) 25Hz. No, it's not flat, maybe 6dB down from memory, but that's damned good, all things considered.
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Hi Bob,
Such is the ability of some of B's designs. The 6" MegaWoofer with 40oz magnet is one of the wonders of the Audio world. I could almost use it to pump my biceps :lol: :lol:
I remember measuring "some" 25hz response from a pair of 626R's!!! :o in my room.
I also remember in Vegas a few years ago with the RM30C's. We had a LARGER in the room (at Alexis Park) but we went part of the morning one day with forgetting to turn it on and not missing "anything" in the bass region.
While we often mention that the RM30 has no 1st octave bass, that doesn't mean in the right room and on most material it will drop like a stone below 30. If your room and listening geometry is supportive, it can be quite satisfying.
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Mhnnn...the RM1s has a 10" p/r, would this be superior in this model also?
Is the PR for the RM1 10" or 8"? I have a pair, but they've been sitting in the basement, unused, for a while so I don't recall. Is there an upgrade for the RM1 PR?
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The RM 1 uses a 10" PR, but there is no upgrade available for it.
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Brian & John, I'll see you tomorrow.
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Be good to meet you.
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If you have the RM30C with a plugged side-firing 10" cutout, no xover change is necessary. Knock out the plug for the 10", install the PR, remove the 6" PR's and plug their cutouts, and install the CDWG's.
If you have the RM30M you must remove the 10" active, shorten the wiring (from a series/parallel to straight parallel connections for the remaining active 6.5"), add 10uF to the mid crossover ($12 to $45 per side depending on cap quality), install the 10" PR, remove the 6" PR's and plug their cutouts, install the CDWG's, and you're done.
If you have the RM30C with no side cutouts, surgery to the cabinets will be necessary. Not pleasant, but doable, since the material is only 3/4" MDF.
So, I realize I'm late to this thread, but what does the future hold for the RM30C? Still available as a Gen II with the new CDWGs, or does it just go away?
Lou
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So, I realize I'm late to this thread, but what does the future hold for the RM30C? Still available as a Gen II with the new CDWGs, or does it just go away?
Lou
It is still available as a choice.
Actually it is STILL a good choice for those who intend to use a SUB in their systems, especially for HT use.
Also some placement issues might make it the more attractive option.
That is, now you have a choice between the following:
RM30c with dual 6.5" megas and PR's
RM30m with dual 6.5" megas & PR's, and the "active" 10"
and the new
RM30 II with dual 6.5" megas and the "passive" 10".
The actual issue will be between the "m" and "Series II", and which will be best for an application.
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RM30 II with dual 6.5" megas & 10" PR (no 6.5" PRs) correct?
That is correct; my copy and paste added a couple PR's. I will edit the original post :duh:
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It is still available as a choice.
Actually it is STILL a good choice for those who intend to use a SUB in their systems, especially for HT use.
I was thinking precisely that -- with subs already part of the system, I might go for the "c" version (when my ship comes in).
Thanks, John.
Lou
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I was thinking precisely that -- with subs already part of the system, I might go for the "c" version (when my ship comes in).
Thanks, John.
Lou
Hey Lou,
No problem. When you're getting close give me a "holler" and maybe I can help that ship a bit. :wink: