[fsimms]

It makes me sad that you can't enjoy some of your favorite music anymore.

I also can't enjoy some of the stuff that I used to enjoy too.  I think it is because my standards have gone up.  My parents weren't good cooks so that made me able to eat and enjoy everything.  I have friends that have eaten great food and so they are miserable when they eat out at most restaurants.  The food is just not up to their standards.

That being said, I am retired and watch a lot of TV with my HT1's and enjoy the sound on all the programs.  Sometimes, even on TV, I am thrilled with the sound.

Bob

PS.  Martyo, I think that was a great report that you gave.  Thank you.

[Carl V]

I had read some negative feed back on THAT DAMN Seas midrange driver like thin, metallic, clinical..........

Whatever the weaknesses of the HT3 (or HT1), I'm pretty sure they're not due to the midrange cone material.  I designed an alternative version of the HT3 using the W18 Nextel (coated paper) cone instead of the magnesium (the two drivers are otherwise identical in construction and price).  I wanted to make sure the metal cone wasn't introducing spurious "detail" or other kinds of distortion, and if it was, I wanted to be able to offer Jim an alternative.  I didn't have any vested interest in the outcome.  Paper? Magnesium?  Whatever.  I was pleased with the outcome, but it was basically the same speaker.  I couldn't pick up on any real differences in either the final measurements or the sound.   It was an HT3.

I heard the nextel speaker at RMAF, they seemd the equal of the W18...hard to say.

If they are nearly equal or equivalent why not switch over & avoid all notion of
the ringing?  Or is there some reverse projudice going on...where people will
percieve less detail in the paper cones....jst as some seem to feel that SS slit
cones aren't the euqual of metal cones.

[JP78]

martyo,

when i was reading your excellent posting, i felt complete empathy and very strong memories coming back.  i went through a very, very similar quest that you did with vmps speakers (rm-40) that i had purchased some years back when vmps was getting a lot of praise and notoriety here on audiocircle.  i did purchase them secondhand, but they were mint and there was no evidence of damage or tampering.

specifically, the ribbons were crystal clear, and the midrange was utterly transparent, but i just couldn't seem to have warmth and life into the music that i loved so much.  truthful to the recording or not, i still needed to be able to love the music and feel that connection. 
and like you've done with the ava / salk reported synergy, so did i start with vmps and the spectron musician iii.  i was underwhelmed to say the least.  i think the best analogy i can make is that of older hardened glass...clear, but very brittle.  at the time i had a wadia 861 se -> spectron musican iii -> vmps rm40, with nordost wiring, bpt 3.5 signature power supply etc...everything that is considered state of the art and neutral.
 
at that point i realized i could hang up my ego and admit that i do not need a 100% accurately, neutral, system...i just wanted the music to sound so damn good i'd want to keep listening (sober!). i enjoy some bass bloom, and some warmth, and i'll be damned if keeping true to audiophilisms was going to ruin music for me.

so i got rid of my wadia cd player, popped in a modwright tubed output, added a dehavilland preamplifier.

one day, on a whim, i passively biamped my speakers with a gryphon callisto integrated for the bass, since i was missing the warmth and richness from the bottom. 

BAM!

the integrated did it.  i had excellent warmth and bloom in my room, the dehavilland and modwright tubes did wonders, and steve nugents cables cured any previous hyper-sensitivity i had to the air ribbon tweeter.  i was in heaven.  my system now measured noticably worse (+/- 12db range in my room, versus +/- d6b before), but now i could fall into radiohead albums, miles davis, and my favorite yo-yo ma bach cello suites once again.  i could close my eyes and fall in love with shirley horn, portishead, and yes the greatful dead.

i wouldn't give up on the speakers...the potential is probably there.  but i think you had a great idea when you started fooling with the ava gear...maybe you can try biamping passively with an integrated amplifier, so you can adjust the lower frequency response?  i think i am fortunate the vmps crossover was at 166hz, so i could really make use of that volume knob on the integrated.  i believe the salk crosses over at a fairly low octave as well.

good luck...i'm sure you'll get there.

best,

jp

[rajacat]

It seems that few like so-called nuetral speakers which are supposively true to the source. Does that mean that few really like live music? After all live music would be considered neutral because it is what it is. Perhaps the specs. used to evaluate speakers don' present the entire picture and there are aspects of sound that haven't, at the present SOTA, been able to be reduced to numbers.

-Roy

[DMurphy]

I heard the nextel speaker at RMAF, they seemd the equal of the W18...hard to say.

If they are nearly equal or equivalent why not switch over & avoid all notion of
the ringing?  Or is there some reverse projudice going on...where people will
percieve less detail in the paper cones....jst as some seem to feel that SS slit
cones aren't the euqual of metal cones.
[/quote]


Well--actually those weren't the equal of the regular HT3's, although it might have been hard to hear in that room.  Those speakers were done in a rush, and when I first listened I had the sinking feeling that maybe whatever crossover skills I had were disappearing faster than my hair.  The midrange just wasn't there.  By the end of the morning we knew there were problems and took some measurements--there was a switcharoo in the midrange padding resistors that caused about a 15 dB depression in the mid response.  We ran the regular HT3's for the rest of the show.  Jim hasn't offered the Nextel as an alternative because he doesn't think they have any audible advantage (and may not be quite as good), and therefore doesn't want to pretend to be fixing problems that don't exist. Besides, the mere act of offering them would send a signal that there are legitimate reasons why you might not like the magnesium W18.  And it complicates an already quite full product line.  Give me a couple of minutes, and I'll think of another reason.   Oh yeah--they don't look as cool.   

[PMAT]

Nice review. Sometimes the biggest problem of all is our own expectations. It's hard to spend large and not have expectations. Psycho-acoustic mind-crap is a mental disease. Sometimes it works for us and sometimes against us. The opinion of a revered person can change another person's own opinion. I'm sure the Salks are perfectly capable of truly amazing sound. Thats the only necessary fact.
On another plane, all the talk about reproduction vs the live event pains me. One of the reasons I love 2 channel is that it sounds so much better than the majority of live events. It's a rare concert that sounds great. I do love live recordings, and often they sound way better than the actual event I attended. I go to live events less and less often because my listening room sounds good. The live magic and the pulse of the crowd is missing but the sound is very good. Unless, of course, the recording sucks!

[BrianM]

My first listen to the Seas W18 midwoofer created an instant hunch that it was way better than my room.  No matter how much I fiddled with placement it wasn't right until I started taming reflections big time.  By "right" I mean non-fatiguing; the superior resolution was always evident and impressive in its way.  (Later I switched rooms so I could go more all out with treatments.)  I never really doubted my instinct that this was a neutral driver, not "metallic sounding" which was clearly just psychological - whereas my room was not neutral enough.  IMO it either needs a big space (in which case the bass will then suffer) or a very well damped space.

Great writeup martyo.  Your comments about strong preexisting biases are spot on.  There's a lot more to be learned from someone's honest agonizing than from a hundred rave reviews.

[Kris]

Nice review. Sometimes the biggest problem of all is our own expectations. It's hard to spend large and not have expectations. Psycho-acoustic mind-crap is a mental disease. Sometimes it works for us and sometimes against us. The opinion of a revered person can change another person's own opinion. I'm sure the Salks are perfectly capable of truly amazing sound. Thats the only necessary fact.
On another plane, all the talk about reproduction vs the live event pains me. One of the reasons I love 2 channel is that it sounds so much better than the majority of live events. It's a rare concert that sounds great. I do love live recordings, and often they sound way better than the actual event I attended. I go to live events less and less often because my listening room sounds good. The live magic and the pulse of the crowd is missing but the sound is very good. Unless, of course, the recording sucks!

That's why i never upgrade, unless the technology has taken a quantum leap, and that's every 15-20 years in Audio. 

[BikeWNC]

I've had my HT3 speakers for about 2 months now.  This weekend I finally put my better gear back in the system which replaced the Denon receiver I had been using.  So now I need to work on placement and room treatment and though it sounds pretty good right now I'm sure there is room for improvement.

Andy

[gjs_cds]

It seems that there could be a few issues here.  First off--it may be an unfair comparison to contrast a traditional box speaker design (monkey coffins) with a ribbon, planar, or electrostatic design.  Two totally separate animals, each with their own advantages and flaws.  Neither replaces the live experience. 

Another issue that stands out to me was in a previous post.  Live music can suck too.  Why yes--yes it can.  I can't remember when I've been to a "plugged-in" live event that didn't suck.  If there's amplification involved, the sound gets screwed up.  (Or--that has been my experience, at least.)  I'll attend as many unplugged or acoustic live events as I can...but I'll pass on most amplified concerts and the like. 

So if "Live" may or may not be the gold standard... because amplification can suck, and room acoustics (even in an acoustic live performance) can suck... then what's the reference?  I used to be quite strict in my interpretation... nothing less than pure accuracy.  However, I'm beginning to reassess this view over the past years.  Our reference may not be all that good of a reference, so at some point--what is the point?  Just pick the contaminated style of speakers that one is drawn to--and stick with it.  Save the hassles of tinkering and just enjoy the music.

All this from someone who used to build speakers as a hobby.  (And would like to pick it up again--once my kids get older...)

[avahifi]

Hey gjs_cds, maybe you should forward Marty your observations posted at our circle this week.  I suspect that he can get more out of his HT3s and on all kinds of music, well recorded or not, than he has realized so far.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[sts9fan]

I can't remember when I've been to a "plugged-in" live event that didn't suck.

Wow!  I am sorry for you!