[vettett15]

I agree with Jack, even better would be if Selah and Vapor would bring each others speakers to the same room so they could be A-B'd better.  Wish these guys were able to come to more shows (Axpona in Jacksonville, cough cough), the more people that hear them, the more great reviews there will be...

[kip_]

I agree with Jack, even better would be if Selah and Vapor would bring each others speakers to the same room so they could be A-B'd better.  Wish these guys were able to come to more shows (Axpona in Jacksonville, cough cough), the more people that hear them, the more great reviews there will be...

Rick tried a couple of years ago to get an Audiocircle shootout together, but it wasn't very well received. Talked about getting Salk, Selah, Daedalus, and GR Together. I believe Vapor was still operating under the BPT auspices.

One of the issues is declaring winners or losers so it's kind of a lose-lose proposition for the manufacturers. I think this type of thing is better organized by [hopefully] impartial private members.

[rklein]

One of the issues is declaring winners or losers so it's kind of a lose-lose proposition for the manufacturers. I think this type of thing is better organized by [hopefully] impartial private members.

+1

Regards,

Randy

[Tyson]

Just look at the 'Best of Show" reports you see on the audio shows - there is little to no consensus.  Because audio is subjective, and people have different preferences.  This makes "shootouts" inherently biased and unfair. 

[vettett15]

I understand, there may not be a clear winner but you would still get some opinions (hopefully from respected people).  Really that is the only thing a lot of us have to go on, so the more shootouts done, the more data there is out there (making everyone's decision harder....).

The majority, if not all of the manufacturers, seem to be saying their speakers are the best at anywhere near the price, so they can't complain that it would be a lose lose situation.  Especially since all of them are most likely extremely good designs and peoples decisions would be based off of very subtle things in the sound or looks/construction/cost/availability, etc.

[rklein]

I fully understand why AC rules prohibit vendors from participating in these types of threads and why Rick from Selah got his "hand slapped" by the facilitator.  On the other hand, if you are going to police vendors/manufacturers, you need to police posts that gives opinions on or worse yet, bashes a vendor's product while NEVER actually hearing or seeing in person the said product. (Which by the way, induces the affected vendor having to defend themselves)

Yes, I have built a kit offered by Selah audio.  This does not preclude me from looking at other manufacturers that offer kits or fully built speakers.  That's what makes this hobby so enjoyable to me. 

I fully plan and am looking forward to hearing Jim Salk's speakers, Ryan's speakers and Rick's speakers at AKFest in Novi, MI. in a couple of months.

Regards,

Randy

[pslate]

Shootouts just tend to divide us. I can see theoretically how this could be avoided, but in practice it never seems to lack contentiousness. I received a BA in Philosophy, and sometimes it's funny how audio positions can mimic those of philosophy. I think sometimes in philosophy people can become so enamored of a thought on an issue, it becomes hard to be neutral. People can remain fixed on one axiom of thought, and maneuver from that position. I think it can be the same with audio. In the end the part I most enjoy is having a few good drinks with people who share my passion.

[vettett15]

Understood, nothing seems to go as easy or pain free as it should.  Maybe calling it a shootout is bad terminology, as it gives the sense that there will be a clear winner.  It would just be nice to have a group of people listen to the speakers in the same exact environments and give their opinions on the strengths/weaknesses.  Since everyone prefers different things from speakers, it would be nice to know if one is a little brighter than the other, or one had better dynamics, so people could use that to help make their decision.

[sts9fan]

Shootouts can be fun and good reads but are still subjective.
If I was a manufacturer I would avoid them no matter how good my product. 

[jackman]

I agree there is no perfect way to do this, but I'd rather base an opinion on an in-person audition versus the alternative (internet conjecture, specs, pictures, etc.).  Having manufacturers submit speakers for a "shoot-out" is not something I'm interested in seeing.  I'd rather listen to a room set up by each manufacturer with the proper gear, setup, etc., and the speakers sounding as good as each respective manufacturer feels they should sound.  It would be nice if we could listen to at least one or two of the same songs on each system, played at the same SPL level as well. 

Official show reports (professional) and "Best of Show" awards are not things I place a lot of trust in.  I am also sceptical of the opinions of people who are close friends of manufacturers or vocal owners.  Not that they are not honest, but I sometimes question their objectivity.  Also, this is a test to which there are no "right" answers. 

Everyone has an opinion to which they are entitled.  I've heard some exotic, high $$$ systems (and some popular speakers/components) that left me underwhelmed and some modest systems with little known components that sounded very good.  Then again, this is just my opinion.  I could be wrong!

I hope people who provide their comments after the AK fest do so with the understanding that they only represent one person, and that other people coluld easily come away with a different conclusion regarding which system sounded best.  I expect to hear some great stuff from all three and (if I get to go to the show) will be happy to share the experience with people on this site.  I may even bring my fancy camera!  Will need my wife's permission because it's technically her camera/birthday present...

Cheers,

J

PS - If Roscoe attends the show with me, I may have to swap name tags with him in case one of the many people I have offended decide to punch me in the nose.  For the record, I am tall with dark brown hair.

[wilsynet]

By formally entering your product in a shootout, you are implying that to some extent you endorse the results.  But given how subjective all of this is, given that there are matters of system differences, system synergy, personal preferences, room differences, etc., I think it would be suicide for a manufacturer to formally support or endorse such a competition.

Agree, it's a lose-lose proposition.

[jackman]

By formally entering your product in a shootout, you are implying that to some extent you endorse the results.  But given how subjective all of this is, given that there are matters of system differences, system synergy, personal preferences, room differences, etc., I think it would be suicide for a manufacturer to formally support or endorse such a competition.

Agree, it's a lose-lose proposition.

Agreed.  Plus, I only like shoot-outs when products I like win.  Otherwise, I think they are crap!

J

[vettett15]

Seems a little slippery slope for one to be worried about a shootout (and all of the variables involved) on one hand and then on the other claim your speaker can blow all its competitors away.  It create the excitement/craziness that we see in this and other threads where really the only true solution is for everyone to audition the speakers in their room, listening to their music.

[jackman]

Seems a little slippery slope for one to be worried about a shootout (and all of the variables involved) on one hand and then on the other claim your speaker can blow all its competitors away.  It create the excitement/craziness that we see in this and other threads where really the only true solution is for everyone to audition the speakers in their room, listening to their music.

I haven't read through the entire thread but don't recall seeing any manufacturer shying away from a shootout.  I just questioned the value of a shootout.  IMO, again just one person's opinion, I'd rather hear a room set up by each manufacturer with the proper gear driving the speakers and decide which one sounds best.  It's not a perfect solution because you can't hear them side by side, but swapping speakers in and out of a single system that is not optimized is problematic and potentially unfair to a manufacturer whose speaker does not mesh with the associated gear. 

I'm only the judge of what I like, but I'm usually able to hear a couple different systems and decide what I like and don't like, and ultimately pick a favorite.  Not 100% sure about that picking a favorite part, especially if all of the systems sound good or, conversely, if I don't like any of them. 

[wilsynet]

Seems a little slippery slope for one to be worried about a shootout (and all of the variables involved) on one hand and then on the other claim your speaker can blow all its competitors away.

This is an exaggeration.  I do not recall any manufacturer claiming that their speakers were better than all other speakers.

[roscoeiii]

I'd rather listen to a room set up by each manufacturer with the proper gear, setup, etc., and the speakers sounding as good as each respective manufacturer feels they should sound.  It would be nice if we could listen to at least one or two of the same songs on each system, played at the same SPL level as well. 

I really like jackman's suggestion here. A couple key tracks in a room set up by the manufacturer with ancillary equipment of their choosing, at matched SPLs sounds super.

PS - If Roscoe attends the show with me, I may have to swap name tags with him in case one of the many people I have offended decide to punch me in the nose.  For the record, I am tall with dark brown hair.

 

[vortrex]

maybe they can have a veneer shootout?

[vettett15]

Wilsynet, I didn't say all other speakers (sorry if it came across like that), I said it's competitors.  I define competitors by those in the price range (as most people have a max price point), again my opinion/definition. 

Quotes from the respective websites:

Selah:
The Tempesta is a state-of-the-art monitor that offers unparalled performance for the dollar.

We know of no other 7" woofer that performs as well in bass quality and extension; in fact, we invite you to compare with any other speaker using a woofer of this size.

Vapor:

The Vapor Audio Cirrus is made to compete with and beat any stand-mount speaker in the World no matter price.

I agree with jackman's idea, think it would be a fair compromise, as you can never make it perfect. 

Even if one did beat the other "badly" (unlikely), perhaps that would force the other to better his design, thus making an even better speaker.

[ecramer]

Would be a very interesting to get together after hours at  RMAF and go between the three rooms with a small group of people and and some music agreed upon by the three designers.

I heard the pair of Cirrus? TurboFC3S brought to RMAF.  Don't know how many changes there been since then. I own two pair of Rick's speakers tanzanites and RC-5s. Ive heard Salk at RMAF and ht3 at jos b's song towers at Evans. Now which one is best  I think my Tanzanites are as good as vapor cirrus and that's not a bad thing for the Cirruses

between the  floor standers  with the right pre / amp there both fantastic speakers.
I haven't heard the Tempesta  but i would replace my tanzanites in a flash with them if i could after a couple of chats with Rick.

ED




From L to R: Oska Aulos, Focal Audio FS-6, Mark & Daniel Maximus, Epos, GR Research and Selah Audio Tanzanite speakers.
 i got the nod at  a 2008 ny rave for best sounding speaker

[OzarkTom]

How about three judges reviewing two sets of speakers on the shoot-outs, and the winner wins both sets of speakers.