AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Enclosures => Topic started by: shahed on 26 Feb 2012, 07:55 am
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I'm planning to purchase a new speaker with a budget around ~4k. I live in NYC apartment and monitors seems to work well but I'm open to floorstanders that doesn't take up large space and image well.
In my price range most speakers that having a good buzz are internet direct and hence can't audition. I currently have a pair of PMC AML-1, they are great - very detailed, revealing and dynamic, albeit little dry sounding because of their dead on neutrality I might say. I'm actually happy with them. My past speaker was NHT XD - another excellent speaker. I want to get a passive speaker for a change. =) I need a high value speaker with my budget to get more what the PMC AML-1 has to offer.
I'm hearing a lot about Selah Tempesta and Vapor Audio Cirrus speakers. They do look like a very high value speaker. The Salk HT-1/2 looks very promising too. I auditioned a Devore 3XL at Stereo Exchange in NYC and loved them. But I do not think 3XLs are better than my PMC AML-1.
I would be spending around 2k for an amp. I do not require the speakers to go down very low but I do like bass slam and body. I want a high resolution, detailed speaker but very musical. I can't place them more than 2 feet from the side and back wall. I listen to mostly indie rock and some classic rock. How good are RAAL tweeters for rock music? Any suggestion/recommendation will be much appreciated.
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I have not heard the Vapor design, but both of my pairs of Selah monitors are neutral, natural-sounding and coherent. They both have huge sweetspots and the sound doesn't change at all when you move around the room. They are quite neutral, and if they have any character it would be just a tiny bit laid back. They sound very musical when paired with tube amps. The Tempestas should reach 35hz easily in room. My SA-2s have the fountek ribbon tweeter but it sounds well-defined without being bright. It sounds great on rock, electronica, and jazz.
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Yesterday, I ordered the Selah Tempesta in gloss piano black. Expect to take delivery in about 4 weeks. A generous 45 day return policy makes the purchase very low risk.
If I were spending roughly $2K on an amplifier right now, I'd probably get this one:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=103404.0
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I don't know that you are going to 'beat' the AML-1 active PMC, you may only go sideways.
the Vapor Cirrus, Selah Tempesta and Salk are greeat choices and the Devore 3XL is supposed to be outstanding too.
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Out of those I'd go vapor cirrus or something from Gedlee. The Cirrus has intrigued me for a while but I love my Abbeys.
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Those are all fine speakers, and it's tough to predict how any one would work in your world. I have the Tempesta, and like your PMC they are monitor-like in sound, that is, no euphonic coloration. Bass is deep for the size, and very tight. The use of the RAAL in combination with the 2" Accuton is what makes them special- the transparency, speed, and coherence of the mid to high range is pure magic- very rare for a conventional speaker- the type of sound I usually associate with 'stats or full range ribbons. I'm listening to Dire Straits now- the dynamics and power is all there, without any glare or hardness. I think the Tempestas are very high value indeed. The cheapest speaker I've heard that I MIGHT prefer is the $11000 Daedalus Athena that a friend owns. He has $20K Shindo amps up front, so I don't think the speakers are solely responsible for the great sound he gets. Good luck!
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Yesterday, I ordered the Selah Tempesta in gloss piano black.
Congratulations. I hope you like them as much as I do.
In my experience, they sounded "tight" and a bit polite, particularly in the mids, out of the box. Although more neutral than the planar mids in my VMPS RM30s, I was a bit disappointed in that aspect at first, but between 80-100 hours they really opened up, and I think they only got better for another 100 hours or more. (Accuton says their drivers take 300 hours to stabilize).
Have fun!
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Yesterday, I ordered the Selah Tempesta in gloss piano black. Expect to take delivery in about 4 weeks. A generous 45 day return policy makes the purchase very low risk.
If I were spending roughly $2K on an amplifier right now, I'd probably get this one:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=103404.0
Thank you for your suggestion. But LFD won't do it for me as I definitely need a remote. What amp you are planning to use with the Tempesta? Their sensitivity is listed as 84.5db - which is a concern for me. I've Ming Da MD-75, Ekco EV55, EE M88 in my shortlist. Not sure if these tube integrated have the horsepower to drive the tempesta. How about W4S amps? Is SS class D amp is a good pairing with Tempesta?
Thanks everyone for their helpful replies so far. :)
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Thank you for your suggestion. But LFD won't do it for me as I definitely need a remote. What amp you are planning to use with the Tempesta? Their sensitivity is listed as 84.5db - which is a concern for me. I've Ming Da MD-75, Ekco EV55, EE M88 in my shortlist. Not sure if these tube integrated have the horsepower to drive the tempesta. How about W4S amps? Is SS class D amp is a good pairing with Tempesta?
Thanks everyone for their helpful replies so far. :)
How large is your room? If it's on the small side you can get buy with 75-100 watts per channel. I get by with 38wpc on my SA-2s but they are sealed and actively crossed to a subwoofer. Rick's sensitivity ratings are on the conservative side. I think IcePower would be a good match, pair it up with a tube preamp perhaps.
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I like small tower speakers because 1) they have their "stands" built in, 2), usually more/better bass, 3) more aestetically pleasing to look at in a room.
Having said that, the Salk's are awesome, just make sure to get the ones with the upgraded ribbons, like the ones I heard at RMAF last year:
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/fb86dda6.jpg)
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Yesterday, I ordered the Selah Tempesta in gloss piano black. Expect to take delivery in about 4 weeks. A generous 45 day return policy makes the purchase very low risk.
If I were spending roughly $2K on an amplifier right now, I'd probably get this one:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=103404.0
I thought you were going with Cirrus? What made you change your mind?
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What amp you are planning to use with the Tempesta? Their sensitivity is listed as 84.5db - which is a concern for me. How about W4S amps? Is SS class D amp is a good pairing with Tempesta?
I found Rick is VERY conservative in the sensitivity spec. The Tempestas are louder than my Volent VL-2s, which are rated 87db, and nearly as loud as my VMPS RM30s, which were 89db. Depending on room size and volume requirements, you should not need a huge amp. That said, I use a Cullen modded PS Audio GCC-500, a 1000 wpc Icepower amp, very similar to the big W4S amp. The sound is terrific. Whenever I get the urge to trade amps I listen again, and quickly lose the urge.
They aren't that difficult to drive. I think most good, clean, neutral amps of at least moderate power should sound good with them.
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Personally pinching my pennies towards the Vapor Audio Cirrus with custom stands and the upgraded crossover. I think Vapor and Selah use the best drivers but without question Vapor really has the cabinet and crossover side of their speakers perfected. Between the Tempesta and the Cirrus the Revelator vs the Audiotech is a push matchup to be sure, but implementation, (cabinet, crossover) I would have to give to vapor.
I would stack the Cirrus up against every monitor I have ever heard and most towers. Personally I couldn't see how a three way, (using great drivers mind you) thrown together in a PE cabinet could hold a candle to the engineering and voicing that went into the Cirrus and its bomb shelter of a cabinet.
Plus to me a three way design kind of defeats the purpose of a monitor to me. I want my monitor to have sweet uncomplicated sound with great resolution, imaging, and speed, I would have to let my ears completely rule them out but on paper they don't look close.
Thats just me though so as always, YMMV.
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thrown together in a PE cabinet could hold a candle to the engineering and voicing that went into the Cirrus and its bomb shelter of a cabinet.
Thats just me though so as always, YMMV.
Have you ever even seen a PE cabinet? The curved ones are very very heavy and very well braced. Part of the reason selah is able to have such low prices is the prebuilt cabinets. If you don't like them, buy from Salk or Vapor and pay more.
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I think a Tempesta vs Cirrus audition in the same room would be awesome... I could only imagine Rick had good reasons to go with a 3 way and Ryan with a 2 way, both have been reviewed and compared with speakers that are much more expensive. I suppose no one hear has heard both?
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I thought you were going with Cirrus? What made you change your mind?
Both speakers are very well regarded and considered bargains but I went with Selah because:
1. Selah has been around longer. Many happy customers over the long term.
2. Only 4-5 weeks wait for a standard finish speaker, and most important of all, an incredible 45 day return policy.
The Selah isn't a custom cabinet, and it doesn't have options for premium parts in the crossover, but I've decided I'm okay with something well designed and a bit more oriented toward higher volume production.
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I'm planning to purchase a new speaker with a budget around ~4k. I live in NYC apartment and monitors seems to work well but I'm open to floorstanders that doesn't take up large space and image well.
In my price range most speakers that having a good buzz are internet direct and hence can't audition. I currently have a pair of PMC AML-1, they are great - very detailed, revealing and dynamic, albeit little dry sounding because of their dead on neutrality I might say. I'm actually happy with them. My past speaker was NHT XD - another excellent speaker. I want to get a passive speaker for a change. =) I need a high value speaker with my budget to get more what the PMC AML-1 has to offer.
I'm hearing a lot about Selah Tempesta and Vapor Audio Cirrus speakers. They do look like a very high value speaker. The Salk HT-1/2 looks very promising too. I auditioned a Devore 3XL at Stereo Exchange in NYC and loved them. But I do not think 3XLs are better than my PMC AML-1.
I would be spending around 2k for an amp. I do not require the speakers to go down very low but I do like bass slam and body. I want a high resolution, detailed speaker but very musical. I can't place them more than 2 feet from the side and back wall. I listen to mostly indie rock and some classic rock. How good are RAAL tweeters for rock music? Any suggestion/recommendation will be much appreciated.
I will let know what I think of the Cirrus once I get it in my system. The Ming you have should be a giant killer and better nos tubes would just add to the enjoyment. I have done some serious tube rolling with a top of the line Ming pre and the results were awesome. Very hard to beat for the money.
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The Selah isn't a custom cabinet, and it doesn't have options for premium parts in the crossover, but I've decided I'm okay with something well designed and a bit more oriented toward higher volume production.
Rick will substitute any caps you like. He can even modify the voicing of the speaker to suit your tastes.
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Also, check out the new Gallo Classico IV's at $3495 a pair. These have great bass slam, a tiny footprint(35"x7"x14"), and will totally disappear in any room placed. They are great for rock and classic rock if the recording is great. These are revealing, so bad recordings will sound bad.
With no crossovers, these are quick like ESL's, and vocals are as good as it gets. These are very easy to drive, efficiency is 92db/1 watt. I have played them very loud with the 25 watt Ampino, 32 watt TBI class D amp, and the 40 watt Jolida 202RC integrated. All of these amps are less than 1K and they all sound fantastic with these Classico speakers.
Watch for a lot of upcoming rave reviews on these loudspeakers. 6moons already have one, giving the Classico III's a Blue Moon Award.
http://www.roundsound.com/classico-cl-4.php
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The only experience I've had with any of the speakers you mention is hearing them at shows, which I'd consider to be little or no experience. I do however have experience with Wyred4Sound amps. Prior to the LFD (and now Aaron), I had an STI-500 and ran it with Lenehan Audio ML1s and Harbeth Compact 7ES-3s. While it is feature laden and decent sound for the money, to my ears, in my room, with my gear, it wasn't even close to the LFD in terms of transparency, texture, PRaT or overall musicality. It's at a lower pricepoint, so that shouldn't come as too much of a surprise. I'd recommend settling on the speaker based on your room and tastes, then focus on the right partner amp. You can probably get something very good on the used market at $2K if you're patient. I'm selling the LFD for the same reason you're not interested in it - no remote. Being patient allowed me to score the Aaron No.1.a for a great price - it has all of the great elements of the LFD and builds on them, with a remote - a great amp.
Good luck in your search - it can be daunting.
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Personally I couldn't see how a three way, (using great drivers mind you) thrown together in a PE cabinet could hold a candle to the engineering and voicing that went into the Cirrus and its bomb shelter of a cabinet.
Plus to me a three way design kind of defeats the purpose of a monitor to me. I want my monitor to have sweet uncomplicated sound with great resolution, imaging, and speed.
The PE is a very fine cabinet as Rick uses it, and these are definitely not "thrown together". Rick has far more experience "voicing" a speaker than the Cirrus designer. The comment about 2 way vs. 3 way is a non-starter- the Tempesta is one of the fastest, highest resolution and most coherent speakers anyone has made, and I've heard more speakers than just about anyone. I'm sure the Cirrus is very good, but in the end, it's the SOUND that counts, not theory and speculation. Without hearing both speakers, in comparable environments, there is no argument.
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Fortunately for those of us in the Midwest (or who are hankering to travel to a small audiofest from wherever they live), Selah, Vapor and Salk will all be at AKFest in April (4/28-29). Link: http://akfest.com/ So come one, come all to hear these different companies. Stop in Fritz Speakers room as well. An unexpected highlight of my last AKFest.
And I think more exhibitors have signed on than on the site. Bid Red Machine from AC is involved and has posted lists of exhibitors here.
Not having heard the Cirrus, I can state that I loved the Vapor Auroras I heard in Chicago. Wow. Pretty floored by them. Incredible cabinets. Dead, dead, dead and beautiful.
As for the Salks, I don't recall which models I heard, but some I liked more than others. I believe it was the SongTower that I liked most.
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I think a Tempesta vs Cirrus audition in the same room would be awesome... I could only imagine Rick had good reasons to go with a 3 way and Ryan with a 2 way, both have been reviewed and compared with speakers that are much more expensive. I suppose no one hear has heard both?
I'd be very interested to hear the impression from someone who has heard both Tempesta and Cirrus in a domestic setup. Unfortunately, it seems no one has so far.
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Not many Cirrus speakers out there in the world just yet. Rave reviews but not a company that has been here long.
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Also, check out the new Gallo Classico IV's at $3495 a pair. These have great bass slam, a tiny footprint(35"x7"x14"), and will totally disappear in any room placed. They are great for rock and classic rock if the recording is great. These are revealing, so bad recordings will sound bad.
With no crossovers, these are quick like ESL's, and vocals are as good as it gets. These are very easy to drive, efficiency is 92db/1 watt. I have played them very loud with the 25 watt Ampino, 32 watt TBI class D amp, and the 40 watt Jolida 202RC integrated. All of these amps are less than 1K and they all sound fantastic with these Classico speakers.
Classico IV certainly seems interesting. I've never heard a gallo speaker, but they do have solid reputation. I've heard they've thin lower midrange which make them not ideal for rock music. Although 6moons review on C3 has stated that they've more body and flesh in the new design. I'll check if C4s are in any nearby dealer for a listen.
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Both speakers are very well regarded and considered bargains but I went with Selah because:
1. Selah has been around longer. Many happy customers over the long term.
2. Only 4-5 weeks wait for a standard finish speaker, and most important of all, an incredible 45 day return policy.
The Selah isn't a custom cabinet, and it doesn't have options for premium parts in the crossover, but I've decided I'm okay with something well designed and a bit more oriented toward higher volume production.
Those are some strong points regarding Selah speaker I must say. To me, Cirrus looks more attention grabbing on paper. But 12-16 weeks wait time requires one to be really patient. I emailed Ryan few weeks ago with some questions regarding Cirrus and haven't heard back from him. I think Vapor Audio is an one man operation which understandably creates all these delay. Anyone knows the return policy on Vapor Audio speakers?
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Ryan is an AC member, though I can't recall his ID. If you haven't heard back from him, maybe shoot him a PM or give him a ring.
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The only experience I've had with any of the speakers you mention is hearing them at shows, which I'd consider to be little or no experience. I do however have experience with Wyred4Sound amps. Prior to the LFD (and now Aaron), I had an STI-500 and ran it with Lenehan Audio ML1s and Harbeth Compact 7ES-3s. While it is feature laden and decent sound for the money, to my ears, in my room, with my gear, it wasn't even close to the LFD in terms of transparency, texture, PRaT or overall musicality. It's at a lower pricepoint, so that shouldn't come as too much of a surprise. I'd recommend settling on the speaker based on your room and tastes, then focus on the right partner amp. You can probably get something very good on the used market at $2K if you're patient. I'm selling the LFD for the same reason you're not interested in it - no remote. Being patient allowed me to score the Aaron No.1.a for a great price - it has all of the great elements of the LFD and builds on them, with a remote - a great amp.
Good luck in your search - it can be daunting.
Thanks for sharing your impression on W4S amp. Do you think this shortcoming of W4S is due to the technology at the given price point? I understand no SS amp will sound like tubes. But I've a good tube preamp - a modded Vincent SA-T8 with RCA nos tube which brought excellent musicality to my setup. I'm wondering using a tube preamp with SS amp would help in terms of PRaT and musicality with the aforementioned speakers.
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[...] the Tempesta is one of the fastest, highest resolution and most coherent speakers anyone has made, and I've heard more speakers than just about anyone.
I have to confess that one of the best reasons that I had to buy the Tempesta was Jonbee's super strong endorsement. He's had more than 200 pairs of speakers through his system, and, well, that's gotta count for something.
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3 speakers i have never heard. 3 speakers i would love to hear. 3 speakers that have gotten rave rewiews.
which would i buy, w/o having heard them? hands down, i would buy the wapor cirrus' w/o even hesitating a minute. why? well besides the good rewiews, i love the cabinets. i love the shape, and the construction. intuitively, it seems these cabinets are the best shape & construction for quality sound. the fact that they look nice, is icing on the cake. and, i think they'd be fabulous to actively cross to subs. and i will always be using subs, actively crossed over to mains, regardless of the what the main speakers are.
and, there's the fact that they were snuck in to an incredibly well set up room at rmaf, that featured $40k speakers, and everyone there was pretty-much floored by the wapor's. my post referencing comments, especially those of steve nugent, of empirical audio, who was sharing the room:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=78629.msg1011228#msg1011228
(and yes - TurboFC3S is the owner/designer of the wapors.)
from this post:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99651.msg1003977#msg1003977
(steve):
"...IMO, your speakers crush practically everything without really low bass. Ill bet the TAD ref2 only has bass extension to beat it. There is no way the tweeter can compete IMO.
We played LZ Stairway to Heaven for TAS reviewer and the vocalist was so clear and defined that I heard new nuances and detail inthe lyrics for the first time. Ive only heard this track maybe 10,000 times or so....."
and later in the same thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99651.msg1004490#msg1004490
...Quote from: Tyson on 18 Oct 2011, 02:57 PM:
"BTW Steve, I only did a Top 3 at show this year, but your room was in the top 5, IMO. Best I've ever heard a YG Acoustic speaker sound. Wish I could have heard the Vapors, seems like they took it up another level."
(reply from steve):
"Duh, I should have had your cell phone. We played them both Sat. and Sun. after show hours....
I felt myself grabbing for my wallet and wanting to open it." :P
i am sure the cirrus' are something special...
ymmv,
doug s.
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Classico IV certainly seems interesting. I've never heard a gallo speaker, but they do have solid reputation. I've heard they've thin lower midrange which make them not ideal for rock music. Although 6moons review on C3 has stated that they've more body and flesh in the new design. I'll check if C4s are in any nearby dealer for a listen.
C4 is even fuller than the C3. The C4's are very full bidied since they are using 4 of those drivers in each speaker. I listen to rock also. 15 watts will work.
Listen to how these speakers image. I have them about 6 feet apart on a 25 foot wall. On many recordings, like Steely Dan, they image out all 25 feet, Sometimes beyond, like Roger Walter's Amused to Death. These speakers are very holographic, depending on the recording.
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I suspect Ryan has more orders than he knows what to do with, but if you're patient, the Cirrus may be the speaker for you.
For me, for this particular purchase, and for what's going on in my life right now: I didn't want to be particularly patient, I wanted the purchase experience to be more transactional, I liked what I heard about Selah, and I liked some of things Selah could do as a more established business.
Having said all that, I suspect I may end up buying a Cirrus one day. Would love to give Ryan my business in the future.
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Fortunately for those of us in the Midwest (or who are hankering to travel to a small audiofest from wherever they live), Selah, Vapor and Salk will all be at AKFest in April (4/28-29). Link: http://akfest.com/ So come one, come all to hear these different companies. Stop in Fritz Speakers room as well. An unexpected highlight of my last AKFest.
And I think more exhibitors have signed on than on the site. Bid Red Machine from AC is involved and has posted lists of exhibitors here.
Not having heard the Cirrus, I can state that I loved the Vapor Auroras I heard in Chicago. Wow. Pretty floored by them. Incredible cabinets. Dead, dead, dead and beautiful.
As for the Salks, I don't recall which models I heard, but some I liked more than others. I believe it was the SongTower that I liked most.
Now there is a shootout I think everyone on this forum would love to hear.
Not to be combative but someone earlier stated the the PE cabinet is well braced, for a normal sub 3K speaker I may agree. Compared to boxes used in the Cirrus and the ST it is a cardboard box. To me speakers in the tempesta, Song tower, and Cirrus price range the cabinet needs to be something engineered however this price shaving move has allowed Rick to use 3 world class drivers and certainly have a faster turnaround for the customer, certainly for some people these are not things to overlook.
I am willing to wait the extra time to ensure everything is engineered to produce the best possible sound quality in that price range. Vapor makes a speaker using the PE cabinet as well but it appropriately priced at under 2k.
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I think it should be reinforced that of these speakers are well regarded, and at this level of implementation, I think matters of taste trump all else. Hearing a Selah three way design in comparison to a two way was enlightening for me. There can be a lot said for a well desinged three way, with a dedicated mid throwing a huge soundstage. On the other hand the Vapor Cirrus is stunning, I have not seen anyone at AC commit to such an advanced enclosure. I would absolutely love to hear the Cirrus. In the end the approaches are just different, and I have no idea what I would pickup if I was shopping right now. I can say as one of Rick's customers, is that he does everything possible to make sure his cutomers are satisfied. If you know what you want, and are clear about it, Rick will get you to where you want to be. It seems the vapor owner is like that too. I have just not had the pleasure of owning one of his creations. In the end I just wish I could own way more speakers than is sensible!
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Shahed,
As far as I know there is no return policy for the Cirrus. Ryan builds each pair custom for every client.
If you buy them and don't like them (hard to imagine) ,you would need to resell them.
I bought a pair of the Breeze in custom finish with matching stands. Yeah the wait is a bit of a slog, but the pay out will be well worth it. :thumb:
You may try to PM Ryan here to answer your questions, or call him in the late afternoon. He may be a bit difficult to reach by phone, but he is most gracious with his time and knowledge when you do speak with him.
There is a good thread on Audiogon on the Cirrus speakers as well.
Todd
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shahed:
I don't know if the W4S sound in endemic to the technology or not and have never tried it with a tube front-end, so can't help there. For me, it had a very ordered, mechanical sound, that didn't freely communicate the emotion of a performance. Imagine playing a piece of music strictly to the beat produced by a metronome - every note is in its place and on the beat. However, music gets its drive and emotion not from playing on the beat, but with subtle timing and phrasing cues that create tension as they're slightly behind or ahead of the beat. To me, the LFD (and Aaron) capture this subtlety the W4S couldn't - music just sounds more like it's being played by musicians than a machine with the LFD (and Aaron). Having said all this, without having another amp side-by-side that captures this, the W4S will sound great, but as soon as you hear it side-by-side with a more nuanced amp, the difference becomes obvious. Hope this helps.
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Regarding amplifiers. I don't know of many top shelf amplifiers for around $2000 that would adequately drive a 4-6 ohm load and have enough power to deal with 85/86 db efficient speakers. Of course one person's "best amplifier ever" is someone else's "sounds like cardboard."
Having said that, I have no doubt that the W4S amplifiers sound good, they just might not be entirely competitive with a LFD or an Aaron.
Some other options to consider:
There is a Music Reference RM-200 on Audiogon right now for an asking price of $2150. It should be able to comfortably drive any of these speakers and has a long history of being well regarded.
If you're a DIY guy, there is an awful lot of buzz around the Hypex Ncore amplifiers. 2 x NC400 amplifier modules, 2 x SMPS600 power supplies, enclosures and miscellaneous parts would still weigh in at less than $2000.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=95588.0
Finally, I also see a Modwright KWA100 on Audiogon for an asking price of $1700.
I'd probably get the Modwright given how happy I've been with Modwright gear in the past. I've owned the Modwright SWL 9.0SE and Modwright LS-100 preamps. The KWA100 produces 100 watts into 8 ohms and 200 watts into 4 ohms. There's a lot of headroom here, the KWA100 has been very well reviewed, and Modwright customer service is, from personal experience, second to none.
Wilson
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The Gallo Classico CL-4 does look pretty interesting. And at 92db efficient and a 4 ohm load, it seems like a high quality, high current amplifier of modest power output should easily drive them.
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Hey Wilson,
Just wondering about your Zu Soul Superfly speakers. Have you, or are you planning on moving on from this model?
I have sold my Superflys and committed to the Harbeth SHL 5's as my main music making "squeeze". In fact I've seriously been considering an LFD Zero Mk III due to it's know synergy with Harbeth, however I'm presently running an Allnic T1500 300b integrated which sounds fantastic with the HL's (within their power limit).
Since you've already purchased the Selah's, I won't go on about Harbeth but I was going to advise that you not discount the line due to the negative experience with that one dealer.
Regards,
Dave
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one good thing about the Vapor is the inexpensive veneer upgrades at only $200. anyone know why the Selah are $1000 for an upgraded veneer? I don't even think the Salk floorstanders are that much with double the surface area and I would imagine their work is probably considered the best of the three also.
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Why swap out the PMC AML-1's with any of these? Seems like a sideways step at best to me. :scratch:
Is your system too simple for audiophile tastes? Is the hunter instinct kicking in?
(I'm a big believer in active designs.)
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anyone know why the Selah are $1000 for an upgraded veneer? I don't even think the Salk floorstanders are that much with double the surface area and I would imagine their work is probably considered the best of the three also.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58660)
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Oh Nice......LOL....How about a pair of each?? ....LOL....what an interesting shootout it would be!!! Good luck however you choose and Welcome aboard 8)
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Hard to say Whether the tempesta are better or the cirrus. Both have their qualities. But i gotta say i love the looks of the cirrus. Also, if there were standard in measuring sensitivity, the cirrus has some advantage being 3 db more sensitive. The cirrus also dig deeper within its -3db. The woofer from AT is made of polypropylen , not sure how they compared to scanspeak aluminum cone in terms of detail.
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One thing that was drawing me to the Tempestas is the fact you can buy it as a kit and save some money. Not sure how much the cabinets are now, but it seems that you could have a pair of tempestas for less than 3k.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58660)
oh I get it, you're trying to be funny. so cute!
well, it's a legitimate question and I'm not criticizing Selah. I'm seriously considering the Tempesta, but I don't want a standard finish and the only thing stopping me is the 30% addition to the cost for an upgrade.
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well, it's a legitimate question and I'm not criticizing Selah. I'm seriously considering the Tempesta, but I don't want a standard finish and the only thing stopping me is the 30% addition to the cost for an upgrade.
Does it matter if it's 30% more if the final price still represents good value?
My guess is that Vapor's final price with upgraded veneer is only marginally more money because Vapor is building the cabinet by hand and it is only marginally more dollars to pick a different veneer versus a standard veneer. Same amount of work, just different material.
I believe the Selah Tempesta cabinet is a Dayton cabinet, also sold by Parts Express. The Dayton cabinet comes in cherry, maple, gloss piano black, etc. In fact, the standard veneers offered by Selah. Where the standard veneers are applied at a lower cost geographic location, a custom veneer may have the additional cost of stripping the cabinet of its original veneer and then applying the custom veneer. So it's sort of double work.
So the Tempesta has 3 drivers versus the Vapor Cirrus and its 2 drivers. The 3 drivers make the Tempesta more expensive than the Cirrus, but the Cirrus's bespoke cabinet makes it more expensive than the Tempesta, unless you want a custom veneer for the Tempesta, in which case things start to equalize.
Value for dollars? Couldn't say. Would have to listen to both speakers which it seems no one has actually done as of yet.
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Hard to say Whether the tempesta are better or the cirrus. Both have their qualities. But i gotta say i love the looks of the cirrus. Also, if there were standard in measuring sensitivity, the cirrus has some advantage being 3 db more sensitive. The cirrus also dig deeper within its -3db. The woofer from AT is made of polypropylen , not sure how they compared to scanspeak aluminum cone in terms of detail.
Speaker designers all have a preferences, altho' they seek neutrality
if such a thing really exisited.
Speaker drivers are all unique....and it's mostly a matter of taste,
not always "best". And there has always been the Flavor of the
month, year or season with respect to drivers i.e.,tweeters, mids or
Woofers...we all seem to suffer audio-nervosa at times.
Back in the day Ryan had considered the SS
Illuminator, he showed it at RMAF. Salk sound has stuck with SEAS
mostly, with some variations, albeit never SS drivers. Selah has
used all those drivers & yet only occasionally used the AT driver.
Ryan could use anything he wants & yet has stuck with AT for the
most part. Curious if he ever thought about a Dannish speaker/
driver company Raidho. Ceramic mid-woofer & wonderful planar magnetic
tweeter. And their Cabinetry is incredible. Their sound is killer. imho
It's much like Choosing strings, tone wood, reeds, bows or Piano styles.
We all have preferences.
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Does it matter if it's 30% more if the final price still represents good value?
Where the standard veneers are applied at a lower cost geographic location, a custom veneer may have the additional cost of stripping the cabinet of its original veneer and then applying the custom veneer. So it's sort of double work.
of course it does, unless you don't mind paying 30% more just because it is still a decent price.
I guess I can understand the double work argument, but if it costs that much to strip the stock veneer it seems like it would be a LOT cheaper to just build a new enclosure.
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of course it does, unless you don't mind paying 30% more just because it is still a decent price.
I guess I can understand the double work argument, but if it costs that much to strip the stock veneer it seems like it would be a LOT cheaper to just build a new enclosure.
You have obviously NEVER built an enclosure from scratch. I have. 30% is faaaaaarrrrrr less that I would charge to build it. And stripping the existing veneer is NOT a good option.
Or, you could save ALL that money by building the cabinets yourself and you can see for yourself what exactly is involved. Seems simple and easy. It's not.
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Just wondering about your Zu Soul Superfly speakers. Have you, or are you planning on moving on from this model?
Yes, I'm likely to sell the Zu speakers. Probably for a steal. There just isn't room in here for two sets of speakers.
Since you've already purchased the Selah's, I won't go on about Harbeth but I was going to advise that you not discount the line due to the negative experience with that one dealer.
I know you and I have often had similar thoughts on gear, so the recommendation of Harbeth is very much appreciated. I may re-visit Harbeth at some point, although I'm not in a hurry to do so. I wonder if the SHL5 also does well in a smaller room -- there seem to be conflicting reports on whether it really does well in such an environment or not.
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of course it does, unless you don't mind paying 30% more just because it is still a decent price.
Maybe Selah should have priced the standard veneer models at 15% more just so you could feel good about paying less incremental dollars for the custom veneer. But that wouldn't represent good value to the customers who don't want a custom veneer.
Would it make you feel better if everyone paid more so that you could incrementally pay less, even though you're still paying the same amount in absolute dollars?
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Why swap out the PMC AML-1's with any of these? Seems like a sideways step at best to me.
I had no idea. Those PMC AML1 speakers were $8,500 new, and have integrated Bryston amplifier modules.
I would imagine that yes, it would likely be a sideways move. Really a matter of taste rather than better or worse in absolute, irrefutable terms.
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Maybe Selah should have priced the standard veneer models at 15% more just so you could feel good about paying less incremental dollars for the custom veneer. But that wouldn't represent good value to the customers who don't want a custom veneer.
Would it make you feel better if everyone paid more so that you could incrementally pay less, even though you're still paying the same amount in absolute dollars?
the upcharge for salk & cirrus is less, cuz they have to build a veneer on to a cabinet anyway - all you are paying for is the added material cost. saleh doesn't have to do that; it's included in the p/e cabinet. so, if you get a special finish on the tempesta, you are paying for the material cost of the stock finish, the added upgrade material cost, and the labor cost to remove the stock finish and apply the upgrade finish.
i am surprised this is surprising to anyone. :lol:
doug s.
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i am surprised this is surprising to anyone.
Not me. Totally agree with you.
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I had no idea. Those PMC AML1 speakers were $8,500 new, and have integrated Bryston amplifier modules.
I would imagine that yes, it would likely be a sideways move. Really a matter of taste rather than better or worse in absolute, irrefutable terms.
unless all the gushing over the wapor cirrus is not hyperbole. seems quite a few folks at the rmaf show thought them as good or better than $30k-$40k offerings...
doug s.
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Maybe Selah should have priced the standard veneer models at 15% more just so you could feel good about paying less incremental dollars for the custom veneer. But that wouldn't represent good value to the customers who don't want a custom veneer.
Would it make you feel better if everyone paid more so that you could incrementally pay less, even though you're still paying the same amount in absolute dollars?
now you're just being silly. my question of why a Selah veneer is so much more expensive than similar vendors is the question.
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if you get a special finish on the tempesta, you are paying for the material cost of the stock finish
that makes no sense at all. I'm strictly talking about the $1k custom veneer and not what is included in the base price. the base price includes the price of the stock finish.
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now you're just being silly. my question of why a Selah veneer is so much more expensive than similar vendors is the question.
Are you being purposely dense? They have to get a cabinetmaker involved and pay them. With prebuilt cabinets then you just drill holes. Note that unlike Salk this INCLUDES the cost of the veneer.
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You have obviously NEVER built an enclosure from scratch. I have. 30% is faaaaaarrrrrr less that I would charge to build it. And stripping the existing veneer is NOT a good option.
Or, you could save ALL that money by building the cabinets yourself and you can see for yourself what exactly is involved. Seems simple and easy. It's not.
the enclosures from PE are like $200 retail, which means they are probably made for less than half that cost so there is profit being made for everyone involved. if indeed all the $ for the Selah custom veneer is because of the time/effort to strip the old off, then why not just build cabinets from scratch for far less? does anyone even know for sure of the standard veneer is being removed? maybe he is just veneering over the existing or getting boxes already which are bare.
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Are you being purposely dense? They have to get a cabinetmaker involved and pay them. With prebuilt cabinets then you just drill holes. Note that unlike Salk this INCLUDES the cost of the veneer.
that's not very nice of you to say.
I'm sure he has cabinet makers, I don't think he buys prebuilt cabinets for every speaker he has in his stable. again, if cabinets of that size/shape are $200 retail, that pretty much says how much they cost to make. of course the number will be a little higher in lower quantities, but still.
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I believe the 1k surcharge on the custom tempesta includes wood trim and full front bafle veneered. Rick had listed the cost on other model with just veneer on the cabinet with the standard black bafle and it was around 500 +/-more.
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that's not very nice of you to say.
I'm sure he has cabinet makers, I don't think he buys prebuilt cabinets for every speaker he has in his stable. again, if cabinets of that size/shape are $200 retail, that pretty much says how much they cost to make. of course the number will be a little higher in lower quantities, but still.
sorry, vortrex, not meaning to be rude, or "not nice", but, to be frank, my reaction was the same as kip's. when a cabinet maker gets inwolved, the costs go way up. if you look at the cost to "upgrade" a finish on a custom cabinet, it won't be as much as upgrading a finish on an off-the shelf cabinet that is awreddy finished. it is excruciatingly simple...
doug s.
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I'm sure he has cabinet makers, I don't think he buys prebuilt cabinets for every speaker he has in his stable. again, if cabinets of that size/shape are $200 retail, that pretty much says how much they cost to make. of course the number will be a little higher in lower quantities, but still.
His floorstanders and line arrays are nearly all in custom cabinets. The one floorstander exception is the Texas revelator tower. Same goes for his low profile center channels.
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This whole discussion has degenerated into idiocy. This is very simple:
At $3300 in the basic finish, the Tempesta is undoubtedly the best vale in a true high end performer. There's nothing close. The cabinets are very well made. Based on the utter cleanliness of the bass and midbass, whatever the cabinets are contributing to the sound is very limited. I've had many very experienced 'philes over the hear them, and they have been universal in their unconditional praise. As I said before : IT IS ABOUT THE SOUND OF THE SPEAKERS, not the BS from those who've not even heard them! That's why I've owned over 250 pairs of hi-end speakers- it's my ears that count, not theories!
If you want better looks, and can afford it, as I can, at $4300 they are still a screaming bargain, with looks to match their sound quality. I can attest that attaining the quality of the upgraded finish is not a trivial matter.
When you pay up for leather seats in your Buick, GM makes a higher profit margin overall. That's the nature of luxury goods pricing.
Considering what we're getting for the $, if Rick or Ryan or Jim or whomever actually can make a living from this, I'm happy. I've got the value I want, and they stay in business to bring this quality to more people who can appreciate it. These are not public utilities!
If you think you can do better for the $, buy the Tempesta kit and build your own cabinets.
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I'm not really sure what the argument is.
- Selah does not list a separate price for custom versus standard veneers for floor standing models. Presumably, the up charge for custom veneers on a floor stander may be less as a percentage of total cost than it is for a monitor.
- Selah does list a $1000 up charge for their monitor line. All of them, not just the Tempesta.
If the question is, why does it cost more for a custom veneer from Selah versus other manufactures for their monitor line, the answer is:
- For the monitor line only, Selah buys pre-fabricated, high volume production cabinets. Likely from Parts Express. Selah probably pays list price from Parts Express given that Selah does not move sufficient volume of monitors to get a better price than what Parts Express would charge.
- It costs way, way more to strip the stock veneer (maple or cherry) and then apply a custom veneer than it would cost to simply have applied the custom veneer on an unfinished cabinet.
Would Selah be better off constructing the cabinet from scratch to begin with?
Maybe. Presumably Selah did a cost benefit analysis and decided to ship a stock cabinet and re-finish the cabinet if a custom veneer is desired by the customer.
Constructing a bespoke cabinet may very well cost north of $800. If you factor in margin and markup to the customer, it may cost more than $1200, which is the price of the Parts Express cabinet plus the $1000 up charge for a custom veneer.
While perhaps Selah might be better off doing this, that's really a question that can only be answered if we look deep into what Selah is trying to optimize for, what production, R&D, and tooling costs exist, whether time to market is important, whether transformation costs and time are important, whether they expected more people to buy the standard veneer or more people to buy a custom veneer.
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This whole discussion has degenerated into idiocy. This is very simple:
At $3300 in the basic finish, the Tempesta is undoubtedly the best vale in a true high end performer. There's nothing close.
hey jon, didn't you say you have never heard the wapor cirrus'? they start at $3700. i am not trying to take anything away from the tempestas - i am sure they're as good as you say. but saying "there's nothing close" sounds like more than a little bit of hyperbole to me. and, as i have stated prewiously, i haven't heard any of these... and, who knows - there may be countless others as good or better than any of these in this price range...
ymmv,
doug s.
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This whole discussion has degenerated into idiocy. This is very simple:
At $3300 in the basic finish, the Tempesta is undoubtedly the best vale in a true high end performer. There's nothing close. .
Jonbee, I appreciate your enthusiasm for Selah but how can you make this statement if you haven't heard the speakers under discussion? And I fail to believe that there would even be an across-the-board winner. Speaker designs all involve tradeoffs and all of us also have different tastes in what types of music we listen to and what aspects of musical reproduction are most important to us.
Selah, Vapor and Salk are all very well thought of by a decent number of ACers.
And to the OP, I will also suggest looking into some other options by other speaker builders who have solid followings: The Odyssey Kismet Reference Monitor, and the speakers from Aether Audio (formerly SP Tech). As I think I mentioned earlier, Fritz Speakers is another company well worth looking into.
For me, I went with SP Tech Minis because they suited my priorities and the price was right. Happy to elaborate on why I chose these speakers if folks would like.
What led me to their waveguide design? Listening to an early version of the Vapor Aurora, a speaker I still lust after.
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When you pay up for leather seats in your Buick, GM makes a higher profit margin overall. That's the nature of luxury goods pricing.
I hate to keep beating a dead horse here, but if Buick has optional $1k leather seats and Ford has optional $200 leather seats of the same size and quality, I would question the markup of Buick.
for the $800 price difference in veneers, I highly doubt it is $800 worth of labor to remove old veneer on two relatively small boxes.
thanks for being the voice of reason on AC for us all, we are forever indebted to your ears. let us know when you hear the Cirrus.
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I hate to keep beating a dead horse here, but if Buick has optional $1k leather seats and Ford has optional $200 leather seats of the same size and quality, I would question the markup of Buick.
for the $800 price difference in veneers, I highly doubt it is $800 worth of labor to remove old veneer on two relatively small boxes.
thanks for being the voice of reason on AC for us all, we are forever indebted to your ears. let us know when you hear the Cirrus.
I think it would be a good idea if you can ask Ryan how much he charge to custom veneer the breeze instead. It is better compare to selah that way. Dont forget full front baffle veneer.
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I think it is generally unfair to compare two manufacturers who have radically different business models and business maturity.
I really like what Ryan is doing with Vapor, but Vapor is very early yet. The wait time for a Vapor Cirrus is between 4-7 months. Consistent, predictable delivery is not a hallmark of a startup.
Contrast that with Selah who is able to ship you a standard model Tempesta in 4-5 weeks.
The Evolution Acoustics MMMicroOne has also been declared the best monitors this side of $20,000. But it has been plagued by production delays and they don't have anything more than prototypes they've sent to a handful of reviewers and what they've taken to shows. It's been more than a year since they announced the MMMicroOne, and they're now saying it'll ship in April, about 18 months later (?). As far as I'm concerned, the MMMicroOne is vapor ware. That they may be the best pair of monitors ever built, well, it doesn't count. Not if you can't ship.
Selah will ship you a production ready speaker quickly. Vapor will ship you a speaker customized to your exacting standards. That Vapor will charge you less for a custom veneer is not a surprise since the whole effort is custom. Compared to Selah who will charge you less for high volume version and will accommodate a custom veneer for a larger upcharge.
Jonbee hasn't heard the Cirrus. Not many people have. They've heard it in shows, sure, but how many owners are out there? No disrespect to Ryan. I would like to give him my business one day and I hope he'll take my money despite how my comments might be interpreted negatively.
If Ryan can scale out his business and maintain quality and the low prices he has currently, well, I hope he's able to do it. If he's going to stay focused on small boutique builds, that's OK too, there's a market for that. Presumably the market that is willing to wait longer for more custom product.
But look, it's a free country. If the buyer wants to buy a Cirrus, they should go ahead and do so. We've already laid out the reasons why the up charge is higher.
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Some speaker manufacturers just don't want to build cabinets, so they set a discouraging high price for extras. Its a free country, take it or leave it.
Oh, just to throw another vendor into the ring (the thread title does say "etc." right?), how about Aether Audio?
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for the $800 price difference in veneers, I highly doubt it is $800 worth of labor to remove old veneer on two relatively small boxes.
The price of the standard veneer is already built into the standard enclosure. You have to pay for it no matter what.
So does it cost $300 in materials for the custom veneer? Probably. So that leaves $500 left to account for.
Let's suppose it takes 4 hours to strip the standard veneer, and another 4 hours to apply the custom veneer. That's 8 hours of labor. Let's say you pay someone $30 / hour to do that. That comes out to $240. Now add your markup and you're getting pretty close to $500. You *have* to charge a markup, because you have to provide space, tooling, etc. There are operational costs.
I'm not a woodworker, but I would suspect that $30 / hour for a professional woodworker would be quite low. And if there isn't enough work to employ someone full time, then you're going to have to pay on demand contract rates.
But I'm only speculating.
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Aether Audio, Timepiece Mini MKIV
Painted with Satin Finish: $2990
Painted with mirror gloss: $3990
Domestic Hardwood Satin Finish: $3490
Domestic Hardwood mirror gloss: $4490
So if you want a gloss finish instead of a satin finish, it's $1000 more.
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Hopefully we can get off the veneer merry-go-round sometime soon. One company charges one amount, another charges as different amount. Factor that into your buying decision as one more factor.
Just like you would factor in the appeal of an off-the-shelf PE enclosure vs. a modded off-the-shelf enclosure vs. a custom enclosure.
We certainly shouldn't deny the appeal of aesthetics in addition to the appeal of sound quality, and everyone will have a different balance of priorities. For me, I went with the SP Mini over the Aether Spirit because of the looks of the Minis' custom wood waveguides, which appealed more than the more off-the-shelf Spirit cabinets, even though the Spirits were reported to have better bass. I am fine with that decision, and am lovingly gazing at the Minis. Do I have a problem with someone choosing the Spirits because of different audio/aesthetic priorities? Nope.
The custom veneer discussion= :deadhorse:
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those numbers make some sense. I guess Vapor is eating the cost and losing $ on orders with upgraded veneer, there's no way they could do it based off what you are mentioning. who knows, maybe the Vapor site is incorrect or not worded properly and it is $200 labor + the cost of materials to get custom veneer?
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the enclosures from PE are like $200 retail, which means they are probably made for less than half that cost so there is profit being made for everyone involved. if indeed all the $ for the Selah custom veneer is because of the time/effort to strip the old off, then why not just build cabinets from scratch for far less? does anyone even know for sure of the standard veneer is being removed? maybe he is just veneering over the existing or getting boxes already which are bare.
I was going to reply, but if you cannot understand the difference between mass made cabinets in standard finishes built in the far east vs. custom cabinets made in the US, then I can't really think of anything else to say....
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Aether Audio, Timepiece Mini MKIV
Painted with Satin Finish: $2990
Painted with mirror gloss: $3990
Domestic Hardwood Satin Finish: $3490
Domestic Hardwood mirror gloss: $4490
So if you want a gloss finish instead of a satin finish, it's $1000 more.
the $1000 is probably because it is a hand-rubbed finish. that's actually an $1800 option from Salk for floorstanders. it says it is extremely labor intensive.
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Aether Audio, Timepiece Mini MKIV
So if you want a gloss finish instead of a satin finish, it's $1000 more.
Yep that Aether gloss hardwood finish will cost you, it seems.
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I guess Vapor is eating the cost and losing $ on orders with upgraded veneer, there's no way they could do it based off what you are mentioning.
I continue to fail to communicate this in a way that makes sense.
The custom veneer does not cost Vapor any more than the cost of materials because the labor associated with the custom veneer is the same as the labor associated with the standard veneer.
Vapor is only applying the veneer one time. Selah needs to strip it and apply it again.
The majority of the cost of the Vapor is in the custom cabinet, the labor that goes with all of that, two drivers and cross over. Versus the majority of cost in the Tempesta is in three drivers (not two) and the crossover.
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It's not just a veneer job. After veneering, the front edges are routed out and solid hardwood edge inserts are put in place. Then sanding and finishing. This work is contracted out, and is of the highest quality- with veneer choice and stain totally to the customers' request. Price out some custom (one-off) cabinet finishing sometime. I suspect Rick's markup on the cabinet work is not much different than the rest of the system.
There are high end speaker companies that charge much more (several thousand $) for custom finishes that look no better than what Rick offers. In any case, it's the total package price that I care about. And if custom veneers are not important to the customer, you can get the sonic goods in still attractive stock cabinets for a very nice price.
Are there other speakers as good or better for the $? I think that is not the right question to ask. This is not a race. The right question is: how well does the speaker transmit recordings as I think they should sound? If it transmits the recordings enjoyably to you, as you hear the music, without distracting distortions, then it is the perfect speaker- for you.
In all my years I've only experienced this with a handful of systems, and the Tempestas are special in that the size and price is more manageable that others I've heard at this level.
I've owned many very promising candidates over the years that had all the right bells and whistles and had all the buzz but never quite hit the bullseye for me.
I know without doubt there is always something new, and sometimes better, out there. A couple of weeks ago one of my friends got a pair of $11k Daedalus speakers paired with his $25k Shindos that were breathtaking, that did things I never heard before in any system. Did I want to buy them? No, because those qualities don't invalidate or change what I experience with the Selahs, which also re-create music as I think it should be.
If the Cirrus floats your boat in your world, great. I'd love to hear them, and I suspect some day I will. I may end up buying a pair just to check them out. If nothing else my Volent VL-2s (another great sounding standmount) could use some competition for my office system.
In any case- have fun- it is not a track meet- it is about the music!
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Shahed, if the Gallo C4's are too far out looking for you, another worthy competitor is the Tonian TL-D1 Mk II's. Those are more of a conventional box floorstander. These also have no crossovers, so the vocals, speed and dyanamics will be top notch. You can google these speakers, and you will not find one negative, only raves. These are 95db sensitivity, so a 5 watt amp will work.
A friend of mine uses these. He has owned several sets of Quads, several sets of Magnepans, and many numerous box speakers. Rex told me last month, of all the systems he has ever owned, these Tonians coupled with that $500 Class D amp is the best he has ever had. He even rates it above his modified stacked Quads with OTL tube amps. That is saying a lot.
When Rex gets back from vacation, I am going to make a trip up there and compare the Gallo's to the Tonians. That ought to be a good race. When you get use to a very good crossoverless loudspeaker, it is so hard to go back to crossovers.
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Now that we're off the veneer merry-go-round, it is admittedly much less exciting.
http://xkcd.com/386/
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58682)
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When I ordered my Cirrus, Ryan told me 8-10 weeks. I ordered them in Carpathian Elm Burl, a veneer that takes a lot work to get right. At about 5 weeks he called and said the veneer was on and recommended we do it right, which he said was 4-5 coats of pure oil which takes days between coats, then 8-10 coats of a long oil he called it ... Rubbed out each time. The result was nothing short of breathtaking, and delivered right at 11 weeks. For what is literally a piece of custom heirllom furniture, I have NO problem waiting 11 weeks. Of course the sound is why I bought them, and the Cirrus isn't just great, it's the best I've ever heard at any cost. They do things I never thought a speaker could do, things I've literally been searching my life for. Yes they give up a bit of impact in the very lowest bass, but from 40hz up they're perfect ... A crystal clear window into the music.
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Well, sure, but did the comic make you laugh?
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Well, sure, but did the comic make you laugh?
not only did it make me laugh, bit it made my wife laugh when i read it to her. :thumb:
doug s.
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I usually stay out of this circle in the interest of ethics but someone pointed me to this thread. I hope to answer questions and clear up some confusion. Points to address:
1) Sensitivity ratings : Many speaker companies pad their numbers, sometimes 3-4db or more. I'm a firm believer in strong business ethics and believe honesty is the best policy. One of the problems is that there's no industry standard and that makes it difficult to compare. I average the 200hz-5K range for my designs which I think is accurate and reliable. I would be happy to run output curves against any other brands so you can compare for yourself.
Many times I have had customers comment that their previous speaker had a higher rating than our design but our speaker played louder with the same or less power. Here's a link for the NRC in Canada. Compare the manufacturer's spec to how the NRC rated it. Not just sensitivity but also bass extension - another number also often fudged. http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=18
2) Cabinets : Yes, we build cabinets here as well as sourcing some from China. Would I prefer to source everything here? Sure, but then it wouldn't be possible to put good sound within the reach of some audiophile budgets. We do use the Parts Express cabinets as well as cabinets that come from the same factory making enclosures for Dynaudio and others. There are other companies using the Parts Express cabinets, some much larger and better known than we are. The bottom line is that I wouldn't use them if they didn't have good quality and / or if I thought they had a negative impact on the sound.
3) Standard finishes versus custom veneers : With the curved cabinets (Tempesta, Verita,etc) we offer the standard Parts Express finishes (gloss black,red cherry,maple). The custom cabinets add hardwood trim on all four front edges and your choice of veneer on all sides. We use the base PE cabinet, add our own baffle / trim / veneer / finish, plus magnets and grill. Most veneers are included, even exotics like Pau Ferro (Bolivian Rosewood).
One question here concerned the difference in cost of the standard versus custom cabinets. The main reason is that all of the custom work is done here in the U.S. and it's not cheap to have this done. We also use higher grade veneers and more exact matching of the veneers (just like high end furniture). I have seen cabinets from competitors with very poor veneer selection and layup - and these were from companies with reputations for "great" cabinets.
Most companies increase the cost of their base model and then lower the cost for upgrades. I chose not to do this because it makes the base models more affordable. I feel this pricing is more fair to everyone as well. Either way I feel both prices are very competitive. You can even save more and build from a kit.
3) Comparing with other speakers : Our prices include shipping to the mainland USA, grills, and no extra fees for PayPal. When shopping around make sure you compare apples to apples and not oranges. For instance, the Verita (paper or aluminum cone) is a better comparison to the Cirrus. Both are 2-ways and the custom Verita is $3,295 with the equivalent Cirrus at $3,895 (maybe more?). Not sure if the grills and shipping are included with the Cirrus.
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Thanks for clearing that up Rick.
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Personally pinching my pennies towards the Vapor Audio Cirrus with custom stands and the upgraded crossover. I think Vapor and Selah use the best drivers but without question Vapor really has the cabinet and crossover side of their speakers perfected. Between the Tempesta and the Cirrus the Revelator vs the Audiotech is a push matchup to be sure, but implementation, (cabinet, crossover) I would have to give to vapor.
I would stack the Cirrus up against every monitor I have ever heard and most towers. Personally I couldn't see how a three way, (using great drivers mind you) thrown together in a PE cabinet could hold a candle to the engineering and voicing that went into the Cirrus and its bomb shelter of a cabinet.
Plus to me a three way design kind of defeats the purpose of a monitor to me. I want my monitor to have sweet uncomplicated sound with great resolution, imaging, and speed, I would have to let my ears completely rule them out but on paper they don't look close.
Thats just me though so as always, YMMV.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I suggest you get your facts straight next time before posting.
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You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I suggest you get your facts straight next time before posting.
Which facts does sharpsuxx not have straight?
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I started reading this thread as I am intrigued by the Selah offerings but I found this on the website:
Verita $3,350 / pair (custom veneers). Where is the information on paper versus Al cones? :dunno:
3) Comparing with other speakers : Our prices include shipping to the mainland USA, grills, and no extra fees for PayPal. When shopping around make sure you compare apples to apples and not oranges. For instance, the Verita (paper or aluminum cone) is a better comparison to the Cirrus. Both are 2-ways and the custom Verita is $3,295 with the equivalent Cirrus at $3,895 (maybe more?). Not sure if the grills and shipping are included with the Cirrus.
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Rick comparing the Verita to the Cirrus is a little bit of a misrepresentation. The Verita compares with Vapor's breeze which includes a RAAL tweeter and very capable 6" driver in a part express cabinet. However, having had an extensive in house demo with the breeze, the PE cabinet that Vapor uses has had its mass more than doubled with modifications to make it their own...When I asked Ryan why the speakers weighed so much he told me that the PE cabinets needed a lot of help to get them anywhere close to being resonance free. He also told me he would only use the smaller cabinets for any of his designs, the larger ones would take more work to bring up to snuff than it would take to build custom cabinets.
So the breeze retails for 1250 in stock configuration and the verita retails for 2495 how is this price difference justified.
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Which facts does sharpsuxx not have straight?
Presumably Rick would argue against the following assertions:
1. "I couldn't see how a three way, (using great drivers mind you) thrown together in a PE cabinet could hold a candle to the engineering and voicing that went into the Cirrus and its bomb shelter of a cabinet."
2. "I want my monitor to have sweet uncomplicated sound with great resolution, imaging, and speed, I would have to let my ears completely rule them out but on paper they don't look close."
It is only conjecture that equal engineering and voicing did not go into the Selah offering and that the Selah offering does not also have a sweet, uncomplicated sound with great resolution, imaging and speed.
Pure conjecture though, not facts.
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I don't think asking a manufacturer to justify their price against another manufacturer is going to be a useful conversation.
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I started reading this thread as I am intrigued by the Selah offerings but I found this on the website:
Verita $3,350 / pair (custom veneers). Where is the information on paper versus Al cones? :dunno:
Check the Selah forum - there's a thread on paper vs. metal cones awhile back
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Vapor and Selah clearly take quite different approaches. Can we please stop bashing the companies respective designs' and agree with that? Clearly both of them are world class. Vapor uses imported cabinets for the breeze as well.
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I don't think asking a manufacturer to justify their price against another manufacturer is going to be a useful conversation.
+1
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So the breeze retails for 1250 in stock configuration and the verita retails for 2495 how is this price difference justified.
The Breeze uses a SMD woofer while the Verita uses a Scan-Speak Illuminator. Or maybe Rick wants to recover more R&D cost more quickly. Who knows.
Agree with kip. Both companies create world class offerings. Let's stop bashing one in favor of the other.
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After this thread, hopefully we will have lots of ACers listening hard to each company's speakers at AK Fest and reporting back.
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I agree we should focus on facts and opinions of customers. I took offense when my opinion was attacked by the owner of one of the companies in question. I think every business is entitled to their own pricing and process and it is up to the customer to determine whether these prices and practices are justified. I stand by my opinions and I would be happy to change them if I proven otherwise. Rick I would love try a pair of your speakers if there is ever an opportunity, I apologize if you construed any of my posts as a personal attack.
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The Verita compares with Vapor's breeze which includes a RAAL tweeter and very capable 6" driver in a part express cabinet.
Without making any judgement on either speaker's sound or value, the actual facts are that the Vapor Breeze has a "very capable 6" unamed driver and the Selah Verita has a 7" Scanspeak Illuminator driver.
Steve
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Without making any judgement on either speaker's sound or value, the actual facts are that the Vapor Breeze has a "very capable 6" unamed driver and the Selah Verita has a 7" Scanspeak Illuminator driver.
Steve
It's an SB Acoustics woofer and I've used it in some designs. Nice woofer, costs less than 20% of what the Illuminator will set you back.
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Why swap out the PMC AML-1's with any of these? Seems like a sideways step at best to me. :scratch:
Is your system too simple for audiophile tastes? Is the hunter instinct kicking in?
(I'm a big believer in active designs.)
The PMC AML-1s are actually fantastic. In my 18x13ft listening space I can only sit 5/6ft from it. In this nearfield setup, the PMC has some extra sizzle n sparkle in the treble. Some toeing-out and adding a tube preamp has helped a lot. If only I could sit 9/10 feet away, it'd have been perfect. But you guessed it right - the hunter instinct has kicked in. A little laid back speaker would do me good but I'm afraid I may have to lose in other areas what PMC has to offer - and it has plenty of strength in other areas, I mean plenty. I'm a big fan of active design too. My previous speaker NHT XD with dual XDW sub was no slouch either.
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unless all the gushing over the wapor cirrus is not hyperbole. seems quite a few folks at the rmaf show thought them as good or better than $30k-$40k offerings...
Most of us with a limited disposable income are looking for the ultimate giant killer speaker. Even when I'm happy with my current speaker, those gushing feedback over the Cirrus is actually quite a head turner. In fact, on several forums all the impressions I've read - not a single person hasn't gushed over it. With some more digging, I came across Selah Tempesta speakers - has the best of the drivers comparable to Cirrus, a company with solid reputation and with the whole-hearted endorsement from a veteran audiophile john bee, I was very intrigued.
It has been only 4 years that I've been into hi-fi but one valuable lesson I've learned is that price always doesn't equates SQ. Thats why I believe in giant killers.
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Some speaker manufacturers just don't want to build cabinets, so they set a discouraging high price for extras. Its a free country, take it or leave it.
Oh, just to throw another vendor into the ring (the thread title does say "etc." right?), how about Aether Audio?
Yes please! Other vendor suggestion is most welcome. I'm sure there are sleeper speakers that pack a punch and compete well with the big names. Tonian Labs looks interesting indeed. Admittedly I've never heard their name before. I auditioned Timepiece 3.0 ( not the latest incarnation ) and liked AML-1s more. But an excellent speaker.
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i thought the breeze used VIFA NE? :scratch:
sorry i thought its aurora. i think the breeze used SB17
cheers
henry
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Never was really all that aware of the cirrus until this thread. Making me want some!
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It's an SB Acoustics woofer and I've used it in some designs. Nice woofer, costs less than 20% of what the Illuminator will set you back.
Not the SB17 ... I'm not a big fan of that driver. Retail on the woofer I use is more like $140. I don't keep it a secret what I is, but since you guessed wrong I'll let the guessing continue :lol:
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Not the SB17 ... I'm not a big fan of that driver. Retail on the woofer I use is more like $140. I don't keep it a secret what I is, but since you guessed wrong I'll let the guessing continue :lol:
looks a lot like the wavecor WF152B to me...
(http://www.solen.ca/photos/wavecor/wf152bd01_02.jpg)
doug s.
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Retail on the woofer I use is more like $140. I don't keep it a secret what I is, but since you guessed wrong I'll let the guessing continue
It seems like you are keeping it a secret. On the Vapor Audio website the Cirrus specs list both of its drivers, but the Breeze specs only lists its tweeter. Why not just list it in the specs as well as reveal it here rather than make a guessing game out of it? At the Breeze's price of $1295 and using the RAAL tweeter, no one can argue that its not a good value, whichever woofer is used. Prospective buyers just want to know what the specific driver compliment is, that's all.
Steve
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It seems like you are keeping it a secret. On the Vapor Audio website the Cirrus specs list both of its drivers, but the Breeze specs only lists its tweeter. Why not just list it in the specs as well as reveal it here rather than make a guessing game out of it? At the Breeze's price of $1295 and using the RAAL tweeter, no one can argue that its not a good value, whichever woofer is used. Prospective buyers just want to know what the specific driver compliment is, that's all.
Steve
search the web; it will take less than a minute to confirm the breeze's driver is as i figured out, above... it is even listed on their website...
doug s.
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Yes, although it was only referred to as a Symmetric Motor Drive 6-inch woofer in both the Breeze Description and Specification list, I did later find that it was a Wavecor WF15 when I rested my cursor on the thumbnail of the Breeze baffle in the photo gallery. Might as well add it to the Specifications list.
Steve
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Not the SB17 ... I'm not a big fan of that driver. Retail on the woofer I use is more like $140. I don't keep it a secret what I is, but since you guessed wrong I'll let the guessing continue :lol:
My fault for not looking close enough - I see it's a Wavecor. Nice driver but still not much more costly to you than the SB woofer.
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Yes, although it was only referred to as a Symmetric Motor Drive 6-inch woofer in both the Breeze Description and Specification list, I did later find that it was a Wavecor WF15 when I rested my cursor on the thumbnail of the Breeze baffle in the photo gallery. Might as well add it to the Specifications list.
Steve
Thanks for pointing that out - my error.
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sorry for the wrong lead :duh:
i did saw ryan's comment regarding the nice wavecor drivers.
cheers
henry
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I don't consider it to be a personal attack; however, with using terms like "thrown together" I think you should be held more accountable for making statements like that. Your opinions are based partly on assumptions and I merely pointed out that those assumptions could be wrong. Just because my approach to design is different doesn't mean that the results are inferior; in fact, I do things based on many years of experience and observation of what works well and what doesn't. I only came here to post because I received an email saying that I should respond to set the facts straight.
If you visit my forum here you'll find that I encourage open discussion and differences in opinions. One of the most common complaints I read on other forums is that AC caters to the manufacturers and some of the manufacturer circles are only filled with fanboys. If that's true then everything becomes suspect and of little value if you're looking for an honest opinion.
I agree we should focus on facts and opinions of customers. I took offense when my opinion was attacked by the owner of one of the companies in question. I think every business is entitled to their own pricing and process and it is up to the customer to determine whether these prices and practices are justified. I stand by my opinions and I would be happy to change thpr ovenI proven otherwise. Rick I would love try a pair of your speakers if there is ever an opportunity, I apologize if you construed any of my posts as a personal attack.
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Sorry for the derailing of your thread but I thought it was important to clarify a few things. Obviously Selah, Salk, and Vapor have different approaches to designing and manufacturing speakers but all three of us are striving for the same goal of excellent sound. Enjoy your quest!
Most of us with a limited disposable income are looking for the ultimate giant killer speaker. Even when I'm happy with my current speaker, those gushing feedback over the Cirrus is actually quite a head turner. In fact, on several forums all the impressions I've read - not a single person hasn't gushed over it. With some more digging, I came across Selah Tempesta speakers - has the best of the drivers comparable to Cirrus, a company with solid reputation and with the whole-hearted endorsement from a veteran audiophile john bee, I was very intrigued.
It has been only 4 years that I've been into hi-fi but one valuable lesson I've learned is that price always doesn't equates SQ. Thats why I believe in giant killers.
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Okay, first we got derailed into a useless argument about veneer, now we have manufacturers bumping right up against the no promotion policy. Industry participants are not allowed to promote their products, speculate on how their products compare to others, or price out what what they would build their competition's products for. Those topics are reserved for their sponsored circles. I would very much like to avoid sending this topic to Quarantine and I thought we had got back on track without me butting in. Please gentlemen, the thread has some great stuff about some top of their class speakers, lets keep it going that way.
Rick, you have a PM.
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Interesting thread. I don't blame Rick for chiming in because several people took some unnecessary shots at his products. I'm not going to take sides but I will say that none of these guys are getting rich in this business. All three manufacturers have different offerings and I'm sure they all have strengths and weaknesses, depending on your perspective.
I'm just looking forward to hearing all three at the upcoming AK Fest! It will be a rare occasion in which people can judge these things based on first-hand experience, versus an internet cat-fight about how much is fair to charge for veneer. :thumb:
Not sure if all three guys would be up for it but I think the speakers should be evaluated using the same tracks at the same SPL level. They will most likely be in separate rooms but it would be fun to hear each of them and provide comments on the level of excellence each was able to achieve. I've heard Salk speakers several times (but not the Soundscapes) and have heard several of Rick's designs over the years. Haven't heard Vapor but have read lots of positive comments. Also, I have no "dog in the race" or personal preference. Each guy has a solid reputation and they all seem to have a unique approach. Truth be told, I'm a fan of all three (Vapor based on looks alone) and wish them all well.
Wasting time on a fight that cannot be won is about as unproductive as it gets. I'd rather spend time listening to speaker designs from the three guys in this thread (and others!) and see how they compare...to each other, competitive models and to my current speakers. For me, this hobby is about having fun, meeting people with similar interests, learning new things, experiencing new gear/music and taking a break from my hectic and stressful life by listening to music played through a good sounding system. If this hobby becomes a stressful drag for me, I'll have to find something else like hookers, drinking and gambling. Audio is cheap in comparison, I imagine!
Cheers,
J
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Well put Jack.
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I agree with Jack, even better would be if Selah and Vapor would bring each others speakers to the same room so they could be A-B'd better. Wish these guys were able to come to more shows (Axpona in Jacksonville, cough cough), the more people that hear them, the more great reviews there will be...
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I agree with Jack, even better would be if Selah and Vapor would bring each others speakers to the same room so they could be A-B'd better. Wish these guys were able to come to more shows (Axpona in Jacksonville, cough cough), the more people that hear them, the more great reviews there will be...
Rick tried a couple of years ago to get an Audiocircle shootout together, but it wasn't very well received. Talked about getting Salk, Selah, Daedalus, and GR Together. I believe Vapor was still operating under the BPT auspices.
One of the issues is declaring winners or losers so it's kind of a lose-lose proposition for the manufacturers. I think this type of thing is better organized by [hopefully] impartial private members.
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One of the issues is declaring winners or losers so it's kind of a lose-lose proposition for the manufacturers. I think this type of thing is better organized by [hopefully] impartial private members.
+1
Regards,
Randy
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Just look at the 'Best of Show" reports you see on the audio shows - there is little to no consensus. Because audio is subjective, and people have different preferences. This makes "shootouts" inherently biased and unfair.
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I understand, there may not be a clear winner but you would still get some opinions (hopefully from respected people). Really that is the only thing a lot of us have to go on, so the more shootouts done, the more data there is out there (making everyone's decision harder....).
The majority, if not all of the manufacturers, seem to be saying their speakers are the best at anywhere near the price, so they can't complain that it would be a lose lose situation. Especially since all of them are most likely extremely good designs and peoples decisions would be based off of very subtle things in the sound or looks/construction/cost/availability, etc.
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I fully understand why AC rules prohibit vendors from participating in these types of threads and why Rick from Selah got his "hand slapped" by the facilitator. On the other hand, if you are going to police vendors/manufacturers, you need to police posts that gives opinions on or worse yet, bashes a vendor's product while NEVER actually hearing or seeing in person the said product. (Which by the way, induces the affected vendor having to defend themselves)
Yes, I have built a kit offered by Selah audio. This does not preclude me from looking at other manufacturers that offer kits or fully built speakers. That's what makes this hobby so enjoyable to me.
I fully plan and am looking forward to hearing Jim Salk's speakers, Ryan's speakers and Rick's speakers at AKFest in Novi, MI. in a couple of months.
Regards,
Randy
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Shootouts just tend to divide us. I can see theoretically how this could be avoided, but in practice it never seems to lack contentiousness. I received a BA in Philosophy, and sometimes it's funny how audio positions can mimic those of philosophy. I think sometimes in philosophy people can become so enamored of a thought on an issue, it becomes hard to be neutral. People can remain fixed on one axiom of thought, and maneuver from that position. I think it can be the same with audio. In the end the part I most enjoy is having a few good drinks with people who share my passion.
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Understood, nothing seems to go as easy or pain free as it should. Maybe calling it a shootout is bad terminology, as it gives the sense that there will be a clear winner. It would just be nice to have a group of people listen to the speakers in the same exact environments and give their opinions on the strengths/weaknesses. Since everyone prefers different things from speakers, it would be nice to know if one is a little brighter than the other, or one had better dynamics, so people could use that to help make their decision.
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Shootouts can be fun and good reads but are still subjective.
If I was a manufacturer I would avoid them no matter how good my product.
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I agree there is no perfect way to do this, but I'd rather base an opinion on an in-person audition versus the alternative (internet conjecture, specs, pictures, etc.). Having manufacturers submit speakers for a "shoot-out" is not something I'm interested in seeing. I'd rather listen to a room set up by each manufacturer with the proper gear, setup, etc., and the speakers sounding as good as each respective manufacturer feels they should sound. It would be nice if we could listen to at least one or two of the same songs on each system, played at the same SPL level as well.
Official show reports (professional) and "Best of Show" awards are not things I place a lot of trust in. I am also sceptical of the opinions of people who are close friends of manufacturers or vocal owners. Not that they are not honest, but I sometimes question their objectivity. Also, this is a test to which there are no "right" answers.
Everyone has an opinion to which they are entitled. I've heard some exotic, high $$$ systems (and some popular speakers/components) that left me underwhelmed and some modest systems with little known components that sounded very good. Then again, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong!
I hope people who provide their comments after the AK fest do so with the understanding that they only represent one person, and that other people coluld easily come away with a different conclusion regarding which system sounded best. I expect to hear some great stuff from all three and (if I get to go to the show) will be happy to share the experience with people on this site. I may even bring my fancy camera! Will need my wife's permission because it's technically her camera/birthday present...
Cheers,
J
PS - If Roscoe attends the show with me, I may have to swap name tags with him in case one of the many people I have offended decide to punch me in the nose. For the record, I am tall with dark brown hair. :thumb:
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By formally entering your product in a shootout, you are implying that to some extent you endorse the results. But given how subjective all of this is, given that there are matters of system differences, system synergy, personal preferences, room differences, etc., I think it would be suicide for a manufacturer to formally support or endorse such a competition.
Agree, it's a lose-lose proposition.
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By formally entering your product in a shootout, you are implying that to some extent you endorse the results. But given how subjective all of this is, given that there are matters of system differences, system synergy, personal preferences, room differences, etc., I think it would be suicide for a manufacturer to formally support or endorse such a competition.
Agree, it's a lose-lose proposition.
Agreed. Plus, I only like shoot-outs when products I like win. Otherwise, I think they are crap! :D
J
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Seems a little slippery slope for one to be worried about a shootout (and all of the variables involved) on one hand and then on the other claim your speaker can blow all its competitors away. It create the excitement/craziness that we see in this and other threads where really the only true solution is for everyone to audition the speakers in their room, listening to their music.
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Seems a little slippery slope for one to be worried about a shootout (and all of the variables involved) on one hand and then on the other claim your speaker can blow all its competitors away. It create the excitement/craziness that we see in this and other threads where really the only true solution is for everyone to audition the speakers in their room, listening to their music.
I haven't read through the entire thread but don't recall seeing any manufacturer shying away from a shootout. I just questioned the value of a shootout. IMO, again just one person's opinion, I'd rather hear a room set up by each manufacturer with the proper gear driving the speakers and decide which one sounds best. It's not a perfect solution because you can't hear them side by side, but swapping speakers in and out of a single system that is not optimized is problematic and potentially unfair to a manufacturer whose speaker does not mesh with the associated gear.
I'm only the judge of what I like, but I'm usually able to hear a couple different systems and decide what I like and don't like, and ultimately pick a favorite. Not 100% sure about that picking a favorite part, especially if all of the systems sound good or, conversely, if I don't like any of them.
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Seems a little slippery slope for one to be worried about a shootout (and all of the variables involved) on one hand and then on the other claim your speaker can blow all its competitors away.
This is an exaggeration. I do not recall any manufacturer claiming that their speakers were better than all other speakers.
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I'd rather listen to a room set up by each manufacturer with the proper gear, setup, etc., and the speakers sounding as good as each respective manufacturer feels they should sound. It would be nice if we could listen to at least one or two of the same songs on each system, played at the same SPL level as well.
I really like jackman's suggestion here. A couple key tracks in a room set up by the manufacturer with ancillary equipment of their choosing, at matched SPLs sounds super.
PS - If Roscoe attends the show with me, I may have to swap name tags with him in case one of the many people I have offended decide to punch me in the nose. For the record, I am tall with dark brown hair. :thumb:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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maybe they can have a veneer shootout?
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Wilsynet, I didn't say all other speakers (sorry if it came across like that), I said it's competitors. I define competitors by those in the price range (as most people have a max price point), again my opinion/definition.
Quotes from the respective websites:
Selah:
The Tempesta is a state-of-the-art monitor that offers unparalled performance for the dollar.
We know of no other 7" woofer that performs as well in bass quality and extension; in fact, we invite you to compare with any other speaker using a woofer of this size.
Vapor:
The Vapor Audio Cirrus is made to compete with and beat any stand-mount speaker in the World no matter price.
I agree with jackman's idea, think it would be a fair compromise, as you can never make it perfect.
Even if one did beat the other "badly" (unlikely), perhaps that would force the other to better his design, thus making an even better speaker.
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Would be a very interesting to get together after hours at RMAF and go between the three rooms with a small group of people and and some music agreed upon by the three designers.
I heard the pair of Cirrus? TurboFC3S brought to RMAF. Don't know how many changes there been since then. I own two pair of Rick's speakers tanzanites and RC-5s. Ive heard Salk at RMAF and ht3 at jos b's song towers at Evans. Now which one is best :duh: I think my Tanzanites are as good as vapor cirrus and that's not a bad thing for the Cirruses
between the floor standers with the right pre / amp there both fantastic speakers.
I haven't heard the Tempesta but i would replace my tanzanites in a flash with them if i could after a couple of chats with Rick.
ED
(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12029/Speakers_LF_-_Oskar%2C_FA%2C_Eppos%2C_Mike%2C_Ed.jpg)
From L to R: Oska Aulos, Focal Audio FS-6, Mark & Daniel Maximus, Epos, GR Research and Selah Audio Tanzanite speakers.
i got the nod at a 2008 ny rave for best sounding speaker
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How about three judges reviewing two sets of speakers on the shoot-outs, and the winner wins both sets of speakers. :thumb:
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Selah:
The Tempesta is a state-of-the-art monitor that offers unparalled performance for the dollar.
We know of no other 7" woofer that performs as well in bass quality and extension; in fact, we invite you to compare with any other speaker using a woofer of this size.
Vapor:
The Vapor Audio Cirrus is made to compete with and beat any stand-mount speaker in the World no matter price.
Pretty much standard marketing, don't you think? Surely, knowing their mutual aspirations to build world class monitors you don't expect them to say that they built an average speaker to deliver average results.
Selah says they *invite* you to compare. Vapor says they *made* the speaker to compete with and beat all stand mount speakers, not that they actually *are* better than everything else. And while it may be true for them, it really is up to you to decide whether their preferences reflect your preferences.
The usual caveats apply. System synergy, personal preferences, etc. It even seems very likely that both manufactures could claim that their speaker is better than the other even after a shootout as it is unlikely that one will be absolutely better than the other on every dimension, in every system, with any music, in every room and for every listener.
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Yep, everyone will read those claims differently... I'm not going to argue over Vapor using the word "may" or get Clinton in here to tell us what "is" means. I'm just saying, if you are going to make these claims then I don't see how you could be against a "fair" shootout (decent equipment, setup, etc), which we should note neither of these guys have said they are against doing this....(we are just assuming).
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I don't think I was saying that they would reject or be opposed to a shootout (after all, they invite comparison). I was just speculating it may be too much to ask them to *endorse* a shootout. It's sort of a lose-lose proposition, and the manufacturer has the potential to look bad by either declining to participate or by agreeing to participate and looking like they also endorse the results.
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You're right, wouldn't expect them to endorse one, just think it would be cool to have an impromptu one. I think everyone would agree that if one were to purchase either of these speakers they would be very happy. Especially considering the service and craftsmanship you read about (will adjust the crossover to suit your taste/room, etc). You just may have that thought in the back of your mind, is the other one better... Perhaps audiocircle can get a group of people together to pitch in on buying a set of each of these speakers so they can be sent around to everyone for an at home audition. ( I know just a dream).
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At this level of quality I think "preferred" is more accurate than "better". Shootouts are performed all the time at audio societies and clubs around the world, and as someone mentioned there is usually very little consensus between the top contenders. There's often universal opinions when a product doesn't cut the mustard and is deemed inferior to the other units there. So again as noted, it's a loser for manufacturers to be directly involved.
And if you've worked at or attended shows, after hours are usually reserved for auditions by serious customers or courting dealers. So the best that can be hoped for at shows is that the rooms you're interested in have the ability to play your CD or memory stick, which is increasingly more rare. Thus the importance of opinions from people you trust who have heard the speakers you're interested in, which is why these forums are so valuable. If only for either adding to your short list or narrowing it down.
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Seems like everyone is sorta skirting around the fact that, i think, most local audio clubs have frequent get togethers and 'shootouts' on a regular occurrence. We can't all make it to audio shows... To be able to listen to 2-3 totally difft systems in a comfortable setting for an entire afternoon all the while having difft gear thrown into the mix, is about as good as it gets. At least for me.
St Louis' GAS crew does it right, without prejudice. To be honest Ryan's best design is of the best i've heard, but I attended GAS outings the last 2 yrs w/o many mentions of Vapor Audio. Not slighting Ryan (he'd shoot me if i was!) but there are SO MANY difft small mfgrs & artists composing the industry that simply getting out & experiencing them is critical. You just don't know what that next guy has dreamed up & created, and how it might work in your home.
Sorry to wax on about shootouts & the like. Just sayin', they ain't that hard to come by.
I've been to club meetings in st louis & chicago - the mfgrs are always welcome.
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Shootouts are fun and are very helpful, but I find the subtle qualities that mean a lot to me for long term satisfaction in my environment are often not easily found in short term listening sessions.
It is precisely for that reason that I have bought so many speakers over the years - I want to listen deeply, in my environment, to get a handle on how something will work for me long term. I never review anything I don't own, and then I only mention those speakers that are worth the time, in my opinion. In other words, I don't review speakers I don't like. Out of humility I know others may like them just fine, and they are also right. Reviews and opinions get me on the trail, but only a few of those candidates truly rings my bell, and I know of no other way to get to the musical truth as I hear it but to take the time to really get to know their sound in my world. A state of the art speaker that doesn't mesh well in my world is of no use at all to me.
I know this approach is not practical for most listeners, so all the other info we can scrounge is the best one can do, and it can be helpful, but can never be decisive. The number of hyped contenders that I've heard that didn't make the cut for me is astounding. Of the 250+ pairs of good, well reviewed speakers I've owned, perhaps a half-dozen models have really brought the music home to me unmolested. Pondering this as the outcome of 44 years of sorting has led me to the Tempestas as my last speaker for my main system. For me, the size, price, beautiful cabinetry, and musical truthfulness put them in my first cabin. For you, maybe, perhaps probably, not.
In a world with thousands of models, the existence of "better" somewhere is almost always certain, but for me, if I know one thing after these years, I know "my" truth when I hear it. As hard as it has been to find, that truth is good enough.
So good luck. There are no absolutes here. Each of us has the only vote that counts in this contest. I suggest that if you find a speaker that speaks the truth to you, buy it if you can and call it good.
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Shootouts are fun and are very helpful, but I find the subtle qualities that mean a lot to me for long term satisfaction in my environment are often not easily found in short term listening sessions.
It is precisely for that reason that I have bought so many speakers over the years - I want to listen deeply, in my environment, to get a handle on how something will work for me long term. I never review anything I don't own, and then I only mention those speakers that are worth the time, in my opinion. In other words, I don't review speakers I don't like. Out of humility I know others may like them just fine, and they are also right. Reviews and opinions get me on the trail, but only a few of those candidates truly rings my bell, and I know of no other way to get to the musical truth as I hear it but to take the time to really get to know their sound in my world. A state of the art speaker that doesn't mesh well in my world is of no use at all to me.
I know this approach is not practical for most listeners, so all the other info we can scrounge is the best one can do, and it can be helpful, but can never be decisive. The number of hyped contenders that I've heard that didn't make the cut for me is astounding. Of the 250+ pairs of good, well reviewed speakers I've owned, perhaps a half-dozen models have really brought the music home to me unmolested. Pondering this as the outcome of 44 years of sorting has led me to the Tempestas as my last speaker for my main system. For me, the size, price, beautiful cabinetry, and musical truthfulness put them in my first cabin. For you, maybe, perhaps probably, not.
In a world with thousands of models, the existence of "better" somewhere is almost always certain, but for me, if I know one thing after these years, I know "my" truth when I hear it. As hard as it has been to find, that truth is good enough.
So good luck. There are no absolutes here. Each of us has the only vote that counts in this contest. I suggest that if you find a speaker that speaks the truth to you, buy it if you can and call it good.
your "last" speakers for your main system? mebbe you are fooling yourself, but you ain't fooling anyone else! :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
hey, i have a nice bridge f/s, wanna buy it? :green:
doug s.
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Doug, depending on how old jonbee is, they might just be his LAST pair.
Scotty
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Doug, depending on how old jonbee is, they might just be his LAST pair.
Scotty
wow, that's harsh! :o the way jon goes thru speakers makes my tuna affliction seem pretty tame i comparison! :D
doug s.
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You gotta admit that 250+ pairs of speakers is a stunning number. If he says it's his last, he's got a better shot at it than most. One might want to ask how many other times has he declared a pair of speakers as his last, what the longest time between speakers has ever been, and compare that to life expentancy.
I wonder if we can get Vegas to put some odds on this.
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Tempestas as my last speaker for my MAIN system.
I have 3 systems. There are several reasons why they should be the last there, high among them the onset of arthritis, which limits the size and weight i can manage. Also, the wife has a say in that system, and she loves the Ts. She think they're the best I've had as well, and she has a good ear- and eye.
Since I got the Tempestas in April, I've bought another 6 pairs or so for my other systems. If I buy others, it will be to play with in those systems. I bought Merlins for the office this year, but they weren't close to the Volent VL-2s I use there, much less the Selahs. The Vapors would fit well physically in there too, and are somewhat intriguing. As a 2-way, I see the Cirrus as an interesting comparison to the Volents, which have some very remarkable attributes for their size, as several reviewers have noted.
So, it does go on.
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I have 3 systems. There are several reasons why they should be the last there, high among them the onset of arthritis, which limits the size and weight i can manage. Also, the wife has a say in that system, and she loves the Ts. She think they're the best I've had as well, and she has a good ear- and eye.
Since I got the Tempestas in April, I've bought another 6 pairs or so for my other systems. If I buy others, it will be to play with in those systems. I bought Merlins for the office this year, but they weren't close to the Volent VL-2s I use there, much less the Selahs. The Vapors would fit well physically in there too, and are somewhat intriguing. As a 2-way, I see the Cirrus as an interesting comparison to the Volents, which have some very remarkable attributes for their size, as several reviewers have noted.
So, it does go on.
Six Pairs! Wow - all in the same finish?
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wow, that's harsh! :o the way jon goes thru speakers makes my tuna affliction seem pretty tame i comparison! :D
doug s.
You gotta admit that 250+ pairs of speakers is a stunning number. If he says it's his last, he's got a better shot at it than most. One might want to ask how many other times has he declared a pair of speakers as his last, what the longest time between speakers has ever been, and compare that to life expentancy.
I wonder if we can get Vegas to put some odds on this.
Doing the math for 250 speaker pairs (I guess Jon didn't buy any 5 or 7 speaker HT sets?) over 44 years comes out to a new pair every 64.284 days, or rounded to an approximation, a new set every two months. For 44 years. There should be a support group for this. Then again there should prolly be a support group for all of us. :lol:
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Then again there should prolly be a support group for all of us. :lol:
There is! You're on it. That's why most come here....you start to feel "normal".
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I have a new goal! 300 pair. Only 286 left. What IS the penalty for draining your 401k?
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There is! You're on it. That's why most come here....you start to feel "normal".
Ha! I was thinking the same thing as I typed it.
I have a new goal! 300 pair. Only 286 left. What IS the penalty for draining your 401k?
10% penalty plus 10% tax initially, adjusted later at filing. Just sayin'.
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.
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:o
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I have 3 systems. There are several reasons why they should be the last there, high among them the onset of arthritis, which limits the size and weight i can manage. Also, the wife has a say in that system, and she loves the Ts. She think they're the best I've had as well, and she has a good ear- and eye.
Since I got the Tempestas in April, I've bought another 6 pairs or so for my other systems. If I buy others, it will be to play with in those systems. I bought Merlins for the office this year, but they weren't close to the Volent VL-2s I use there, much less the Selahs. The Vapors would fit well physically in there too, and are somewhat intriguing. As a 2-way, I see the Cirrus as an interesting comparison to the Volents, which have some very remarkable attributes for their size, as several reviewers have noted.
So, it does go on.
sorry, man - no way you will be able to resist sneaking another pair of speakers into your #1 rig, arthritis be damned! you yust can't stop!!! :lol:
i haven't been at it as long, but i have averaged about 1 new tuna every 3 months, over the past 20 years. :green: i am also enamoured of speakers, but size/cost, and living space the past eight years (1 room studio apartment) has kept it down to a more manageable number. so, it's about 1 pair every 14-15 months for the past 20 years...
ymmv,
doug s.
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All the above mentioned speakers sound like really great efforts and priced quite reasonably considering the drivers involved.
I've had the pleasure to hear Ryan's Cirrus speakers numerous times now and they never disappoint. Their a super coherent two way that can pump out some serious volume for a stand mount. They are much more than just a dynamic speaker though.
I've been terribly impressed and heard rumor that Ryan of Vapor Audio and John of Musical Design may host back to back sessions later this spring . That would be a real treat for the Gateway Audio guys. :thumb:
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I've been terribly impressed and heard rumor that Ryan of Vapor Audio and John of Musical Design may host back to back sessions later this spring . That would be a real treat for the Gateway Audio guys. :thumb:
Sounds like a good time to me! The 40 hour drive would suck though :cry:
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Sounds like a good time to me! The 40 hour drive would suck though :cry:
Hey Doc,
How about posting some pics of the Cirrus sitting in your listening room? Any chance of having a demo at your place? Where are you located? Someone on this site may be close to you and would want to hear these speakers in a good environment.
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Paul,
I will be posting pics of my Breeze when they are shown at Akfest in a couple of weeks.( Curved cabinet, the veneer is redwood burl, with matching redwood baffles. I did purchase the matching stands.
I am located in Pittsburgh Pa, and I am happy to have folks audition the Breeze in my home.
I plan on having a couple a of planned listening sessions for some local audiophiles as well.
If anyone within a few hundred miles would like to stay with us for a night or two for a longer listen/visit of Pittsburgh, over night visitors are welcome.
My wife and I run a FREE bed and breakfast. Lol... :o :thumb: ( www.couchsurfers.org )
Todd
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Todd, I was really hoping to see Doc77's Cirrus's. He has gushed about these on other forums so Iam very intrigued. Once I get mine I will show some pictures.
The 4 month mark is approaching. I don't have the best environment for listening demo's since I have a big cabinet that will be in between these speakers. It's not bad though since the speakers can be placed 4 feet away from the back wall and in front of the cabinet.
So Doc, how about some pics?
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Hey guys just saw this thread and I know this is not the cirrus speaker but I have had the breeze speaker since August 2011 and love the sound these guys produce. To me these speakers have wonderful soundstage and I absolutely love the detail I can hear in the music. I think that they are just wonderful across the sound spectrum from treble, mids to the bass.
I live in an apartment so I never turn them up loud but when I use my Virtue m901 and AVA ultra dac its is just pure bliss to listen to music for me :) These were my first speakers into the hi fi realm and I could not be happier. Maybe someday i will sell these to get the cirrus heh who knows.
By the way i just want to clarify that I have no affilation with vapor audio other than the fact that Ryan there built my speakers.
I posted some picks for you guys
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58886)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58887)
have a great weekend everyone
Crazy Nocturne
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They look nice Tovio.
Now sir, I hope you ordered some proper stands for those. :nono: lol...
I recommend Skylan stands, but there are many that will work well.
24inch fillable stands can make a big difference.
Todd
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Lol yep stands are on the list eventually.
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Seems like AJ has new set of monitors up his sleeves as well ...
I would be most interested in Danny's 8" subs ... regardless of monitors ... I'd imagine they would afford to be set up in 2's or 3's ...
What I love in this thread is very friendly and mature and open communication ...
These are all boutique speaker designers who bring a price to performance ratio that is off the charts ...
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Todd, I was really hoping to see Doc77's Cirrus's. He has gushed about these on other forums so Iam very intrigued. Once I get mine I will show some pictures.
The 4 month mark is approaching. I don't have the best environment for listening demo's since I have a big cabinet that will be in between these speakers. It's not bad though since the speakers can be placed 4 feet away from the back wall and in front of the cabinet.
So Doc, how about some pics?
Wow 4 months... I just passed the 2.5 month mark. I hope to share mine as well soon.
I chose the Cirrus over the Salk HT1's because I'm not a fan of TL's. I chose it over the Selah because I already own a pair of Selah custom monitors for an office setup and although they are quite good the cabinet audibly rings. Adding 10lb of non-hardening modelling clay to each enclosure reduced the chestiness in the midrange, but did not completely eliminate it. I believe the front baffle was 3/4" mdf and the side walls 1/2" mdf with a 1/2" mdf shelf brace between the mid and the tweeter.
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I purchased a pair of Cirrus and had an issue with the cabinets (shipping), Ryan not only replaced the cabinets, but drove all the way from Missouri to Atlanta to deliver them! I was out of town when they arrived so he made arrangements to deliver them to another customers house. The customer that purchased the speakers has several great setups including KEF 201/2 and Focal Grande Utopia monitors. When I pulled up he came outside and exclaimed he was completely blown away by the sound of the Cirrus and they were well worth the wait... I use the Cirrus with a KT88 based amp by Verastarr and I recently purchased a hybrid integrated amp by Odyssey called the Kismet, which includes an external power supply. I have been waiting since September for Odyssey to show up, should be good. If you have patience and tolerance to deal with build time and poor communication I think you will be very happy with the final result once you receive the Cirrus. I am not a big transparency attic, I am a former musician that likes to hear real music in real space I had a couple of speakers that I like very much VMPS, the Swan 2.6F and now the Cirrus. I have heard most speakers, I travel to most of the audio shows. I discovered the Swans at CES and bought them on the spot, moved into a smaller space and became overwhelmed by their size, a very terrific speaker retail 12,999. I bought the Cirrus based on cabinet design, components and "buzz." I will tell you Ryan is a heck of a designer and has built a product that challenges and beats the big boys. Keep emailing him he will respond... :D
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Great customer service for sure, but he "drove all the way from Missouri to Atlanta to deliver them" without checking to see if you were home? Sounds like a vignette from one of those road movies.
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Eugene, Do they out perform your Swans? What finish did you get?
Can you post a pic of the Cirrus speakers in your set up?
Thanks,
Todd
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I chose it over the Selah because I already own a pair of Selah custom monitors for an office setup and although they are quite good the cabinet audibly rings. Adding 10lb of non-hardening modelling clay to each enclosure reduced the chestiness in the midrange, but did not completely eliminate it. I believe the front baffle was 3/4" mdf and the side walls 1/2" mdf with a 1/2" mdf shelf brace between the mid and the tweeter.
FWIW- this does not describe the cabinets in the Tempestas in any way. They are 3/4-1" thick, have a stout full height vertical brace for the sides, top and bottom, and very effective cabinet damping applied internally to all sides. The curved side panels also reduce panel standing waves substantially, and the non-parallel sides do the same for standing waves in the interior air mass. No cabinet ringing, no chestiness whatever that I can feel or hear. The mids are as clean and accurate as anything I've ever heard. There may be more solid cabinets out there, but the T's cabinets get the job done very well indeed. The reasonable cost of the cabinets leaves $ for things like the very pricey but wonderful Accuton mids and associated crossover parts.
Of course, this is not to say the Cirrus is not a great speaker on its own terms, - I've not heard it, but it looks interesting.
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Since this thread has turned into a Vapor lovefest, is there a reason why Vapor doesn't get it's own circle here?
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Hi Guys,
I support a Vapor Circle too. Although I have not heard Ryans speakers yet, I am impressed on what I have read regarding construction. I ordered my pair in July 2011 and hoping hear that the are ready for delivery soon. 8 months wait so far sucks :roll: but hopefully it is worth it?! I'll let you know.
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8 months wait so far sucks :roll: but hopefully it is worth it?!
This is a worrisome piece of information. Taking a 75% deposit and then not delivering the product in a reasonable time frame, and not communicating with the customers regarding their orders (which is the buzz) is not a sign of a well run business, no matter how good the product may be.
I've seen MANY promising and even world class small and medium sized audio makers blow up and disappear over the years due to business practices that can't scale up. I hope this is not one of them.
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jonbee,
As Vapor is a new company with all the associated growing pains that come with that, cut them some slack. At least until someone doesn't get what they paid for. Delays, especially from newer companies, are very commonplace.
Life happens, and yes we can hope that when it does, everyone affected by events is kept in the loop. But that's not always possible. Certainly Vapor is learning from this process.
Let's instead applaud the individuals who are following their passions and trying to introduce what they feel are great products into the marketplace at great prices.
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+1
jonbee,
As Vapor is a new company with all the associated growing pains that come with that, cut them some slack. At least until someone doesn't get what they paid for. Delays, especially from newer companies, are very commonplace.
Life happens, and yes we can hope that when it does, everyone affected by events is kept in the loop. But that's not always possible. Certainly Vapor is learning from this process.
Let's instead applaud the individuals who are following their passions and trying to introduce what they feel are great products into the marketplace at great prices.
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I hope this is not one of them.
And I do. I'd actually like to hear a pair someday. 'nuf said.
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FWIW- this does not describe the cabinets in the Tempestas in any way. They are 3/4-1" thick, have a stout full height vertical brace for the sides, top and bottom, and very effective cabinet damping applied internally to all sides. The curved side panels also reduce panel standing waves substantially, and the non-parallel sides do the same for standing waves in the interior air mass. No cabinet ringing, no chestiness whatever that I can feel or hear. The mids are as clean and accurate as anything I've ever heard. There may be more solid cabinets out there, but the T's cabinets get the job done very well indeed. The reasonable cost of the cabinets leaves $ for things like the very pricey but wonderful Accuton mids and associated crossover parts.
Of course, this is not to say the Cirrus is not a great speaker on its own terms, - I've not heard it, but it looks interesting.
No doubt the Tempestas are a lot of speaker for the money. Just based on my personal experience, I generally prefer AT drivers over Accuton and I wanted to try a more unique cabinet design. Needless to say, Rockport, Magico, Kaiser, etc. were not in my budget :D
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I really want to order the cirrus, but it seems impossible to do so. I had a couple emails going with ryan and then he just disappeared when I was one step away from putting in a deposit. I hope he responds to me at some point.
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vortrex,
As you may have seen here or elsewhere, Ryan had some personal matters that he needed to attend to. I'd give him a try again. Hopefully these issues and delays are behind him.
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I didn't know anything about that. this was just in the past week that we were corresponding.
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Oh, that recently? These personal issues were at least a month back IIRC.
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Being predictable and reliable requires a good measure of constraining yourself to well understood, operationalized, routinized processes. While some amount of customization and white glove cradle to grave service is awfully nice, it's hard to imagine being able to do this at both low cost and with high levels of predictability.
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"Great customer service for sure, but he "drove all the way from Missouri to Atlanta to deliver them" without checking to see if you were home? Sounds like a vignette from one of those road movies.'
He drove from Missouri to deliver another customer speakers and delivered my pair to his house :duh:
I am currently out of town will post pix when I return.
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Eugene, Do they out perform your Swans? What finish did you get?
Can you post a pic of the Cirrus speakers in your set up?
Thanks,
Todd
No they do not out perform the Swans. The Swans are not a fair comparison, in certain ways they equal the Swans, the Swans are a multi driver (19 drivers per side) array with beautiful timing, tone and explosive realism. They retail for 12999 and compete with the big boys as far as I am concerned. The downside is their size, they are wide and tall, too big for my apartment.
The Cirrus are some of the most neutral monitors on the market. Wide and deep soundstage, magnificent tonal presence and they go pretty deep for their size. I am waiting for the Odyssey amp to show up so I can put them to the task.
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Eugene, Do they out perform your Swans? What finish did you get?
Can you post a pic of the Cirrus speakers in your set up?
Thanks,
Todd
yust so you realize what you are asking, re: comparing the cirrus to the swans 2.6f's:
(http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/rv/s/f/1297484860.jpg)
doug s.
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yust so you realize what you are asking, re: comparing the cirrus to the swans 2.6f's:
(http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/rv/s/f/1297484860.jpg)
doug s.
A more fair comparison would be my two JL Audio F113 subs with the loaded Cirrus. The JL subs add to the dynamics, depth and presence to the music.
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Any recent updates, who's received their Cirrus' (Cirri?)?
My top contenders right now are the Selah Tempesta and Cicondare, Vapor Cirrus or Aurora, Salk SS M7, or possibly their new Raal/Illuminator monitor.
2 way vs 3 way?
Pre-built cabinet vs custom veneers?
Established ID company vs fairly new one going through some growing pains?
Anyone know the extra material costs over the upgrade tick for veneers such as the burls from Vapor or Salk?
Selah includes shipping, how much extra is that for the Vapor or Salk?
I think for a 3-way with great drivers in a well built, but mass produced cabinet the Tempestra would be a clear value winner, but for an exotic veneered product, the options seem much closer.
If willing to spend $4300 for the custom Tempesta, is it worth spending a little more for the Soundscape?
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I have both the Cirrus and Tempesta on order now. I think the Tempesta will be ready in 2 weeks. I bought the kit and had the cabinets outsourced and built out of stacked birch ply with the same specs as the pre-built cabinets. I heard that my Cirrus are 2 weeks away from veneering, so hopefully they are not too far away from being finished. I'm going to live with both for a while and keep the ones I like best.
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I have both the Cirrus and Tempesta on order now. I think the Tempesta will be ready in 2 weeks. I bought the kit and had the cabinets outsourced and built out of stacked birch ply with the same specs as the pre-built cabinets. I heard that my Cirrus are 2 weeks away from veneering, so hopefully they are not too far away from being finished. I'm going to live with both for a while and keep the ones I like best.
Oh man are you putting together a killer system.
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I've recently received my Cirrus and posted my impressions on Audiogon in the Vapor Cirrus Review thread under user mtruong34:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1291159371&openflup&149&4#149
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I've recently received my Cirrus and posted my impressions on Audiogon in the Vapor Cirrus Review thread under user mtruong34:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1291159371&openflup&149&4#149
I saw your review, thanks for writing that. Do you recall what the material cost (if any) was for the cabinet upgrade and what shipping was?
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I have both the Cirrus and Tempesta on order now. I think the Tempesta will be ready in 2 weeks. I bought the kit and had the cabinets outsourced and built out of stacked birch ply with the same specs as the pre-built cabinets. I heard that my Cirrus are 2 weeks away from veneering, so hopefully they are not too far away from being finished. I'm going to live with both for a while and keep the ones I like best.
Since I'm not in any hurry, I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts.
Did you order an upgraded veneer on your Cirrus? If so, what were the material costs and shipping quote.?
I like the idea of building the Tempesta with the stacked birch rather than just veneering over the PE cabs, what did those run you?
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Did you order an upgraded veneer on your Cirrus? If so, what were the material costs and shipping quote.?
I like the idea of building the Tempesta with the stacked birch rather than just veneering over the PE cabs, what did those run you?
my Cirrus will be the bare ply with veneer on the baffle. I didn't quite pick the veneer yet, still thinking. Ryan said he would do any veneer at no additional cost from the base price. I had asked Ryan his thoughts on the best bang for the buck upgrades and he suggested (which I got):
AM Core RAAL - $300
OIMP with V-Cap bypass - $250
I think shipping was included, I don't see it mentioned in my total cost.
as for the Tempesta cabinets, they were significantly more expensive than the other person who did them recently on this site. not a big surprise, I thought that was kind of too good to be true anyway. the cost for those was $1250. that's custom built to my spec, all speaker holes cut, finish sanded, and also with No-Rez installed. those guys have been great to work with.
in the end the Tempesta will be about $600 cheaper than the Cirrus so it's almost a wash. I am more interested in the 2-way vs 3-way. obviously both will be superior speakers and it'll probably come down to personal taste.
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my Cirrus will be the bare ply with veneer on the baffle. I didn't quite pick the veneer yet, still thinking. Ryan said he would do any veneer at no additional cost from the base price. I had asked Ryan his thoughts on the best bang for the buck upgrades and he suggested (which I got):
AM Core RAAL - $300
OIMP with V-Cap bypass - $250
I think shipping was included, I don't see it mentioned in my total cost.
as for the Tempesta cabinets, they were significantly more expensive than the other person who did them recently on this site. not a big surprise, I thought that was kind of too good to be true anyway. the cost for those was $1250. that's custom built to my spec, all speaker holes cut, finish sanded, and also with No-Rez installed. those guys have been great to work with.
in the end the Tempesta will be about $600 cheaper than the Cirrus so it's almost a wash. I am more interested in the 2-way vs 3-way. obviously both will be superior speakers and it'll probably come down to personal taste.
That's really not too bad, are you planning on finishing the Tempesta build yourself? If so, you're only paying $250 more than the assembled standard cabinet, plus your time of course. Probably still not quite as robust a cabinet as the Cirrus, but you should be close. Does the Tempesta Raal have the amorphous core?
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I will finish the build myself. that was my reasoning for going with the stacked ply. in the end it was almost the same cost as the PE cabinets. unlike a lot of people, I have my doubts on whether the sound will be any better with the more robust cabinets. I just didn't care for the look of the PE cabinets. I don't think Selah uses the AM core at all?
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I saw your review, thanks for writing that. Do you recall what the material cost (if any) was for the cabinet upgrade and what shipping was?
I was charged the list price for the upgraded veneer and finish as published on the Vapor website. We then negotiated a small discount based on a larger down payment so it's difficult to say how much each upgrade cost me. Shipping was $180 from St. Louis to Houston.
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If willing to spend $4300 for the custom Tempesta, is it worth spending a little more for the Soundscape?
Well, the Salk HT2-TL's are $4500 plus shipping. http://www.salksound.com/ht2-tl%20-%20home.htm
You should go to this Salk thread - http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=20721.0 to find someone near you to audition a pair. (Or PM Jim Salk to find someone near you.) Listen for yourself.
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Well, the Salk HT2-TL's are $4500 plus shipping. http://www.salksound.com/ht2-tl%20-%20home.htm
You should go to this Salk thread - http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=20721.0 to find someone near you to audition a pair. (Or PM Jim Salk to find someone near you.) Listen for yourself.
I'm more interested in stand-mounts, specifically the soundscape M7 which is $4700
I did go through the audition thread, closest on there is 3+ hours away.
I'll email Jim when I'm closer to making a decision to see if there's anyone in this area (San Antonio or Austin).
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The Soundscape M7 is not really an apples to apples comparison due to the extra cost of the veneer and cost of shipping. By the time you include those you are looking at more like $5500 depending on veneer, whereas with the Tempesta these are both included. They should sound very similar, the speakers use identical drivers except for the woofer.
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The Soundscape M7 is not really an apples to apples comparison due to the extra cost of the veneer and cost of shipping. By the time you include those you are looking at more like $5500 depending on veneer, whereas with the Tempesta these are both included. They should sound very similar, the speakers use identical drivers except for the woofer.
So what you're saying is that for a 3-way with custom veneers, there's no added value in spending an extra $1k or so on the Salk vs the Selah?
If so, then it may boil down to the Tempesta straddling the price point of the Cirrus depending on whether one can live with the standard cabinets or is willing to pony up for the custom veneers to put it on a closer playing field with the Cirrus.
The other consideration is going with a more established company vs a newer startup with some growing pains. What happens if you blow a driver in 5 years, who will be around to help you with the repair?
The question then may be whether the more sophisticated cabinet structure of the Cirrus really makes a difference in the sound quality, or is one better off spending those dollars on drivers.
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The Soundscape M7 is not really an apples to apples comparison due to the extra cost of the veneer and cost of shipping. By the time you include those you are looking at more like $5500 depending on veneer, whereas with the Tempesta these are both included. They should sound very similar, the speakers use identical drivers except for the woofer.
Well the SSM7 is going to cost more no matter what. But i dont think those standard cabinets finish compares to any from salk. The salk comes with a variety of standard veneer. If someone upgrade the veneer on the selah, the 1000 upcharge might include a few types of veneers but one might have to pay a litle extra for those expensive exotic veneer. Another thing is, both the midrange and high are different from the SS, but both are from raal and accuton. The ones from SS are supposed to cost more. The SS are all custom versus selah using prefab cabinets thats why there is an upcharge from selah when you upgrade the venneer.
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Yes, I understand the Salk is going to cost more, the question is what do you get for the extra dollars? Is the standard Salk cabinet "better" than the pre-made one from Selah, if so is it just looks or does it affect the sound? From what I've heard the upgrade on the Selah includes "most" veneers, not sure which are an additional charge. From what I've seen, looks like upgraded veneer materials on the Salk are about $400/pr in addition to the $100 charge for the custom option.
They both use custom versions of the Raal, not sure if either use the amorphous core or how they differ. I don't know the details of which midrange is used in either one, just that they're both Accuton.
I know Salk has a reputation for excellent cabinetry, I assume it's probably nicer than the upgraded Tempesta cab.
I'm sure any of my contenders will sound great. But which will sound the best, if there is any such thing and which will look best in my room.
From a bang for the buck perspective based on sound, not aesthetics, I think the Tempesta in the standard cabinet has to have the best value. The Philharmonics even more so, but I can't get over the look, especially if I have 3 for the LCR.
In the end, $1000 or two isn't going to make much difference over the long term, I've learned over the years that it's best to get what you want. 5 years from now I'm more likely to question whether I should have spent the extra dollars than agonizing if I spent too much.
Right now I'm listening to my 2Cs and they sound pretty darn good for 25 year old speakers, but I'm left wondering how much better more modern drivers and designs could sound.
It is fun to educate yourself on these things.
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Well, impossible to say which sound best, what sound best to me may not be with you. You mention phil, have you tried asking dennis to custom make the top section as a regular box type?
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Well, impossible to say which sound best, what sound best to me may not be with you. You mention phil, have you tried asking dennis to custom make the top section as a regular box type?
Not yet, I actually like the idea of the open back planar mid, it's more the size of the lower cabinet and the way they sit on top of each other that bothers me. It just doesn't have that polished look and some owners have said that the cabinets don't fit tightly together (he is using carpet in between them).
Remember where I'm coming from, trying to get something less imposing looking than my Vandys. As much as I like them, they're not the greatest things to look at all the time.
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Salk - I read an older thread on another forum where (I believe it was Dennis) said Salk uses all AM Core RAAL but doesn't advertise this. Also, the Salk uses the bigger Accuton. May be less efficient and not play as low as the Selah or the Vapor?
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They both use custom versions of the Raal, not sure if either use the amorphous core or how they differ. I don't know the details of which midrange is used in either one, just that they're both Accuton.
It has been posted by Dennis Murphy that Salk uses a customized version of the RAAL tweeter with the amorphous core. I do not know how the Salk RAAL tweeter may differ from that in the Selah. Since RAAL obligates its customers to confidentiality with respect to the 70-20XR design, you likely will not be able to get much detailed information.
The Accuton midrange in the Selah appears smaller in diameter than that in the Salk. Based on appearance, the Salk may use a 130 mm diameter midrange and the Selah a 106 mm diameter midrange. The 130 mm ceramic midranges on the Accuton webpage have a Fs of about 100 Hz whereas the 106 mm has an Fs of 380 Hz. Thus it appears the midrange drivers are from the same family but may differ in performance and design.
One of the things that motivated my purchase of Salk SoundScapes was the musical blending of the drivers that I attribute in part to Dennis Murphy's crossover design. The crossover may be as important as the drivers in achieving exceptional performance. Again, I have no basis to compare or comment on the Selah crossover design.
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Thanks for those details on the Salk drivers.
I now recall Dennis saying that he was going to leave the high-end monitor business to Jim and wasn't interested in developing something along the lines of the M7 or Tempesta.
I'll continue to ponder the options while waiting for Vortex to compare the Cirrus to the Tempesta.
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Rick at Selah will use any version of the RAAL you ask for, with some price variance, of course.
The Accuton in the Tempesta is a 50 mm unit, which offers real advantages when paired with the RAAL- namely, its ringing is at 19khz., vs. around 5 khz in the larger Accuton mids (look at the data sheets on these drivers and you can clearly see the problem). To control the ringing in the larger units means some sort of trap in the midrange crossover, making for a more complex xover. If not dealt with, the handover from the mid to the RAAL is dirtier sounding. Using the 50 mm unit takes that issue out of the picture, and I can attest that the handoff from the mid to the tweeter is inaudible. It sounds more like a planar through the upper range for this reason.
The 50 mm mid unit means the woofer must handle up to 900hz or so, compared to 4-500 for the larger mids, but the 7" Scanspeak Illuminator handles that range without penalty, making the whole as seamless as I've ever heard from any multi-way design. Using a larger woofer would necessitate using the larger mid as Salk does with the Soundscape 10 and 12.
Also, compared to a 2 way, the 50 mm Accuton/RAAL combo offers speed, transparency and coherence in the upper mids to lower treble that is truly worth hearing. That is the area where the human ear is most sensitive, and precisely where 6-7" or larger drivers start to have problems.
Just my 2c.
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Jonbee, thanks for that excellent explanation of some of the differences in approach. I do recall reading somewhere about the advantage of using the smaller Accuton to deal with the ringing issue.
From reading your impressions, it speaks a lot that you claim the Tempesta is the last of your 250 or so speakers. It was a least partially some of your posts that drew me in that direction.
I see you got yours in Pau Ferro, was that the standard upgrade charge or was it extra? Did you get any other upgrades in yours? Do you know if Rick makes any internal changes to the pre-built cabinet?
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I've recently received my Cirrus and posted my impressions on Audiogon in the Vapor Cirrus Review thread under user mtruong34:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1291159371&openflup&149&4#149
Thanks for your very candid review with all the pluses and minuses ... Nicely done.
At also gives me a point of reference since I own TRL gear.
You want to looking into trying an external DAC as I did not see that mentioned in the list ofmy our equipment. On another note that may be unnecessary as you are already enjoying music :)
Super thanks
Sunil
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I have both the Cirrus and Tempesta on order now. I think the Tempesta will be ready in 2 weeks. I bought the kit and had the cabinets outsourced and built out of stacked birch ply with the same specs as the pre-built cabinets. I heard that my Cirrus are 2 weeks away from veneering, so hopefully they are not too far away from being finished. I'm going to live with both for a while and keep the ones I like best.
That would be a most useful impression on this thread ...
I look forward to it...
In my opinion - these are three nice choices - a good problem to have.
Based on one's priorities and risk tolerance - a nice decision can be arrived at.
Personally I am waiting for Danny's new open baffle design with servo subs and neo 10's - granted they are not monitors but they are most intriguing to me ... Followed by the three speaker manufacturers mentioned here - outside of a handful of high priced main-stream speakers.
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The raal from the tempesta is the 70-10 while the Salk is the 70-20. version. There is advantage to either design and i wouldnt worry too much about ringing on the Salk with larger mid.
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Thanks for your very candid review with all the pluses and minuses ... Nicely done.
At also gives me a point of reference since I own TRL gear.
You want to looking into trying an external DAC as I did not see that mentioned in the list ofmy our equipment. On another note that may be unnecessary as you are already enjoying music :)
Super thanks
Sunil
Thanks Sunil. I actually have a Bryston BDA-1 DAC, Modwright Transporter and TRL Dude Preamp that I've been working in and out of my system for several months. The sound out of a stock transporter through a TVC passive preamp has been so satisfying that I'm rather content giving up that last small % of musical quality for convenience (which is remote capability, having an always on and ready to play system, and the hassle of dealing with tubes).
Mike
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I see you got yours in Pau Ferro, was that the standard upgrade charge or was it extra? Did you get any other upgrades in yours? Do you know if Rick makes any internal changes to the pre-built cabinet?
The Pau Ferro is an upcharge. I did not get any upgrades internally, but I did rewire mine internally with VH audio OCC/teflon wire, which was an improvement.
Rick does totally line the cabinets with no-rez. There is also a clever vertical brace in the cabinet (in the PE cabinet) that braces all 4 sides (the front and very small rear panel don't need bracing). The result works very well. The lower mid to low bass obfuscation that is the typical signature of panel flap is totally missing. That part of the range is about as transparent as the rest of the range, and one of the clearest speakers in that range that I've heard.
I'm still in love with mine. Because they are so transparent, it takes more work to get the best matchups from the rest of the system, but they always sound great, even on older mediocre CDs and such.
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The Pau Ferro is an upcharge. I did not get any upgrades internally, but I did rewire mine internally with VH audio OCC/teflon wire, which was an improvement.
Rick does totally line the cabinets with no-rez. There is also a clever vertical brace in the cabinet (in the PE cabinet) that braces all 4 sides (the front and very small rear panel don't need bracing). The result works very well. The lower mid to low bass obfuscation that is the typical signature of panel flap is totally missing. That part of the range is about as transparent as the rest of the range, and one of the clearest speakers in that range that I've heard.
I'm still in love with mine. Because they are so transparent, it takes more work to get the best matchups from the rest of the system, but they always sound great, even on older mediocre CDs and such.
Thanks for this info Jon.
Not sure if we talked about this before, but what are you using for stands?
I think I can get my wife to agree to the standard black cabinets, which will make the Tempesta a great value.
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20" stands are just right. I use Target Audio HS50 which are good (All welded construction is stiffer than bolted) and priced right but hard to find; there are others out there of course. As these are heavy get a good solid stand. I use sorbothane between the stands and speakers.
Yes, the stock cabinet models are a terrific bargain.
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20" stands are just right. I use Target Audio HS50 which are good (All welded construction is stiffer than bolted) and priced right but hard to find; there are others out there of course. As these are heavy get a good solid stand. I use sorbothane between the stands and speakers.
Yes, the stock cabinet models are a terrific bargain.
Those stands look nice and are reasonably priced, but you're right about them being hard to find. They show as unavailable or backordered everywhere I looked. There's actually a local audio store that has them on their website, but listed as unavailable. I agree that 20" should be about right based on my ear height at the listening position.
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Those stands look nice and are reasonably priced, but you're right about them being hard to find. They show as unavailable or backordered everywhere I looked. There's actually a local audio store that has them on their website, but listed as unavailable. I agree that 20" should be about right based on my ear height at the listening position.
based off the target hi-fi website they do not make that exact stand anymore.
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based off the target hi-fi website they do not make that exact stand anymore.
There was one showing in stock at a store in PA. I'm still waiting for your comparo with the Cirrus before making any moves though.
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Hello Vortrex,
Did you ever get a chance to A/B the Selah Tempesta's versus the Cirrus? I'm a Cirrus owner and would love to read your thoughts on hi-end 2-way vs. 3-way comparisons. Not necessarily a "which is better" shoot-out, but comparisons on the sound.
Thanks,
Mike
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Hello Vortrex,
Did you ever get a chance to A/B the Selah Tempesta's versus the Cirrus? I'm a Cirrus owner and would love to read your thoughts on hi-end 2-way vs. 3-way comparisons. Not necessarily a "which is better" shoot-out, but comparisons on the sound.
Thanks,
Mike
Me too
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no, unfortunately the cabinets for the tempesta turned out to be unusable for me and I have not received the cirrus yet. I'm going back to the standard PE cabinets for the tempesta but haven't had time to work on them. I think the cirrus may be shipping soon.
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no, unfortunately the cabinets for the tempesta turned out to be unusable for me and I have not received the cirrus yet. I'm going back to the standard PE cabinets for the tempesta but haven't had time to work on them. I think the cirrus may be shipping soon.
Wow, what happened with the cabinets? I thought they were finished a few months ago. Still waiting on the Cirrus? I thought yours were ready to ship already.
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Wow, what happened with the cabinets? I thought they were finished a few months ago. Still waiting on the Cirrus? I thought yours were ready to ship already.
the cabinets looked great at first glance out of the box, but once I got into them I started to see all the issues. I kept forging onwards, but then reached a point where I figured it was no longer worth it. I haven't tossed them out and will do some experimental surgery on them when I have spare time, to see if they can be resurrected into something. the main issues were with how the holes were cut.
I heard from ryan this AM and he says my speakers will be finished monday.
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Is it that the cabinet maker didn't understand what to do with speaker cabinets and you need to find someone who understands how to build speaker enclosures very well? Just wondering how to avoid a similar fate if I were ever to have custom enclosures made.
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Is it that the cabinet maker didn't understand what to do with speaker cabinets and you need to find someone who understands how to build speaker enclosures very well? Just wondering how to avoid a similar fate if I were ever to have custom enclosures made.
their business is specializing in building speaker cabinets, but the quality is not there.
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their business is specializing in building speaker cabinets, but the quality is not there.
Hope all goes well with your speakers!
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Is it that the cabinet maker didn't understand what to do with speaker cabinets and you need to find someone who understands how to build speaker enclosures very well? Just wondering how to avoid a similar fate if I were ever to have custom enclosures made.
I am in the process of building a pair of Tempesta Extremes. My cabinets are made of layers of plywood (made from teak), resin bonded fiberglass mat, and 3mm lead sheet. If one looks closely at the ply layers in the photo attached one can see the lead sheet (grey colour). Hope this helps.
Photo of Tempesta Extreme
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69222)
Wood used
http://www.truwoodply.com/images/Technical%20Information%20-%20keruing.pdf
The trick as with any finished product is to start with the best materials one can afford (then strech a little more).
If you guys wish I can post pictures when I finish the speakers.
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They look amazing so far. I'd love to see the pics. Report on your listening impressions, too.
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deleted!
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Dude,
Take photos of each step and describe the whole process and post it all in The Lab circle!
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=20.0
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Dude,
Take photos of each step and describe the whole process and post it all in The Lab circle!
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=20.0
I did not want to waste precious server space (somebody who runs audiocircle must be paying for this) with photos. I sent a few to Rick as a thank you for all the help, patient advice and recomendations he provided.
I am also building a pair of RC4 (sans active subs), a pair of on wall S6 and some other smaller on wall speakers (center and rear channel) designed by Rick. Over the past 4 months I must have emailed rick some 100 questions and he answered each one patiently and fully. Gotta hand it to him.
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Build threads are like "Audio porn". Especially to the members that can't DIY themselves.
It's not a waste of space, trust me.
Bob
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Build threads are like "Audio porn". Especially to the members that can't DIY themselves.
It's not a waste of space, trust me.
Bob
Ok you guys are going to kill me then. :duh: Over the past 30 odd years I must have DIYed about 100 pairs of speakers. Many of them huge. Some of them scared my mom and enthralled my dad (he sponsored my madness when I was in school and college). The largest used a pair of JBL 2245J "bass bins". But I took no pictures. I figured anyone can build speakers. It aint rocket science.
In fact the speakers I am building now are the first I have not designed. I do not have the time (between family, work and society related obligations) to do detail design and I lost my copy of MLSSA and LEAP/LMS some 10 years ago anyway. :cry:
BTW Bob are you the same guy over from the Hawthorne Audio forum?
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BTW Bob are you the same guy over from the Hawthorne Audio forum?
Yes indeed, I am.
Personally, I love to see build threads. It's almost like following a movie, or a tv show mini-series.
Bob
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Personally, I love to see build threads. It's almost like following a movie, or a tv show mini-series.
Bob
+1!
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In fact the speakers I am building now are the first I have not designed. I do not have the time (between family, work and society related obligations) to do detail design and I lost my copy of MLSSA and LEAP/LMS some 10 years ago anyway. :cry:
Don't sweat it. Just take a picture or two at each step and say a few words - or as many as you want. Don't kill yourself. Just for fun!
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Don't sweat it. Just take a picture or two at each step and say a few words - or as many as you want. Don't kill yourself. Just for fun!
Well the subwooferless RC4, it's matching center, and Tempesta Extreme will be veneered in the next few days. I did take a few shots of each for posterity. I'll post what I have. Speakers dont look nice under construction. They look nice only after being veneered and polished and if you ask my wife or her friends they all say my speakers are too big and ugly. There is little I can say when the country believes that Bose is the epitome of audio.
For the towers I have used 30mm MDF for the baffle and rear. MDF allows you to rout the basket frame. I will also add a 3-4mm thick rubbber gasket between the baffle and the basket of the drivers. This will be compensated by the thickness of the veneer (about 4mm).
For the center speaker (it is 48" wide, 16" tall and 4" deep at the top and 6" deep at the base) I have used 15mm ply as the depth of the speaker had to be kept under control. However the baffle was braced at 7" intervals to reduce flex. I dont work from drawings. I make a sketch then cut and make adjustments along the way. The center has a W12 Excel mid and NeoX 2.0 tweeter flanked by a pair of W18 Excel woofers.
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There is little I can say when the country believes that Bose is the epitome of audio.
We understand. :wink:
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Dude,
Take photos of each step and describe the whole process and post it all in The Lab circle!
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=20.0
Guys I have posted my first pictures here.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110639.msg1143112#msg1143112
Please forgive me if there are errors. I have never shared pictures in public before.
I put the description of each photo in the caption. Hope this helps.
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Yes indeed, I am.
I love OB speakers. Properly done (and there are many ways to do this) they are simply superb in the bass. The current applications however did not have the room OBs require.
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I love OB speakers. Properly done (and there are many ways to do this) they are simply superb in the bass. The current applications however did not have the room OBs require.
I agree Navin, and I understand your scenario. :)
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Of the 250+ pairs of good, well reviewed speakers I've owned, perhaps a half-dozen models have really brought the music home to me unmolested. Pondering this as the outcome of 44 years of sorting has led me to the Tempestas as my last speaker for my main system. For me, the size, price, beautiful cabinetry, and musical truthfulness put them in my first cabin.
Hi jonbee,
I'm in the hunt myself with Salk, Selah, Ascend, and maybe Vapor among them. Regarding "a half-dozen models have really brought the music home to me unmolested", do you mind posting this list?
Thanks!