[studiotech]

Has anyone seen any modded measurements from Magnestand?  I am talking with someone who is thinking about getting their's done, but in all honesty, I don't buy his explanations for why the wood frames work better than MDF or the crossover mods he does.  I'd love to see a before and after response plot.

I made stiffer frames for my MMGs years ago and it helped, but not because the MDF could not accept the vibrations.  In fact, MDF is a much more damped material than solid hard wood, so as far as accepting vibrations and getting rid of them, it's better.  It's just not that stiff all on its own and flexes quite a lot in the tall thin proportions of Maggies.  I also get the feeling from reading his comments about the 1.7 and their series crossover that he truly does not understand how it works.  That's not the person I want modding my speakers.  Many people seem to like his work (and that's ultimately what counts), but I do not trust most peoples taste in sound reproduction or their critical listening skills.

And the claims of raising sensitivity up by 4 or more dB?  I don't buy it, even with a lower DCR inductor.

I need to see proof.

Greg

[Berndt]

Does magnepan have any stock measurements?

[Berndt]

Are you baiting Davie?

[medium jim]

There is much more information on the AA than you will find here and these threads always end up in a pissing contest.   You said it best, the only way to know for sure is to hear a pair of his modded speakers for yourself.   What I do know is that Magnepan in their stock form gets many a rave review and has been on the best buy list several times.   

Jim

[Rclark]

From what I.understand it'd not about making them stiffer at all. You may just want to talk to PG. Measurements is something I will eventually do. But to answer their characteristics are dramatically different from stock, for one thing, a tremendous improvement in bass output. There's no "I think it's better". My MMG's can rock it without a sub and stock cannot do this. Other differences as well but you're after measurements. You may have to wait a while.

But yeah, it's not about stiffening. Go talk to PG. Easy to reach.

[kevin360]

Unfortunately, what Jim said about these threads is true – often (usually) end up as pissing contests. My impression (based upon what he has demonstrated in conversation) is that PG has a great deal of disdain for science – my opinion of his character, in any case, is completely irrelevant. It does, however, address the absence of supporting evidence in the form of measurements. I  am not sold on the absolute importance of what instruments can quantify, so I don't hold the lack of measurements against the Magnestand mods – many equipment mods rest on listening impressions alone, although most seek to explain something fundamental about why they improve the sound. That is where I once advised him to tread carefully, but that advice went unheeded – no matter, it is his business, not mine.

The panels from my MMGs are in hardwood frames of my own construction. I hear benefits. I can't say whether the improvement is due to the more rigid structure, more secure mounting of the panels, an acoustic addition from the frames, or what – I don't know. I do know that transplanting them cured them of 'the slap'. Prior to installing them in hardwood, they exhibited an occasional tendency to emit an ugly sound as the membrane slammed into the magnet assembly – an affliction that persisted with additional framing which imparted tremendously increased vertical rigidity (while the panels were still mounted in their MDF frames). Once I had them in hardwood, that little annoyance was gone – patently impossible for this change to be imaginary. Something about their new environment solved a problem the panels suffered, and the only change had been moving those panels to their new frames.

Personally, I admire PG's handiwork. He constructs some lovely pieces of furniture. His finish work looks beautiful to me. On that merit alone, I consider his work valuable. I am less enthusiastic about 'his' (there exists a silent partner who is responsible) crossover design. I tried it with my MMGs. Ultimately, I chose to return to my first XO project – an implementation of Magnepan's own design, but with 'audiophile' parts and connections more to my liking (than stock). I believe some of the perceived increase in efficiency is the result of greater overlap in the crossover region – more upper midrange. Take that comment with a grain of salt because I have no supporting measurements. Dave, on the other hand, has posted a graph of how PG's XO models – it implies what I heard.

Most of the foregoing is no more than my opinion. I see no reason why we should all agree on what sounds best. We should no more expect to agree on that than on the music we like best. So, the pissing contests are silly. Still, I prefer that assertions be supported when they pretend to science. There are many disciplines of science. Many come to bear on our hobby. Even if there were no audible changes made (which I am definitely not asserting), the beauty of the frames could actually make a measurable improvement of one's enjoyment of music listening (we can measure brain activity (electrical and chemical, as well as in terms of blood flow)).   

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Rclark, I have but one question: Why are you adding subs?

(I imagine it is because physics is physics. The MMG can only produce so much bass. Mod them any way you wish and subs are still required for true full-range sound)

[jtwrace]

What does Magnepan think of PG's mods? 

Rclark:
What do you want to measure on them? 

[SteveFord]

If someone wishes to post measurements, be my guest.
You'd have to contact Magnepan for their take on it - what I do I know is that they admire Peter's woodworking skills as do I.


A more interesting question is what are the new MMGs going to be like?  They'll be available before we know it.

[medium jim]

I remember reading somewhere where Wendell acknowledged that Magnepan was well aware of all the mods being made to their speakers and had tried most of them and will leave it at that.  One thing of note, MDF board has better dampening properties than solid wood. The crossovers were designed by Nelson Pass.

I feel confident that Magnepan makes one hellva speaker that meets my needs in its stock form, ymmv!

Jim

[studiotech]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses guys. I was not looking to start a flame war, just looking for some concrete evidence of what the mods change about performance.   I've seen and heard far more questionable diy speakers and mods than good sounding gear over years.

[jtwrace]

I've seen and heard far more questionable diy speakers and mods than good sounding gear over years.

Of course you have.  Very few put the effort in it takes to have a truly scientifically designed speaker.  Look at the extreme effort that JohnR & others put into their projects.  It takes many hours to do that.

Ive done it once and it still can't and will never compete with what I own now. 

[SteveFord]

Kevin mentioned subwoofers with MMGs and for Xmas I got my wife an APC H15 power conditioner (she's getting other stuff that she'll actually like).
I hooked everything up and wasn't really paying much attention until I noticed how much bass there was.
MMGs can really put out a surprising amount of bass and I now have the sub turned way down.  I knew that little surge protector was kind of hokey but now I can tell just how much it was holding things back.

[Rclark]

I own them so I can comment over any speculation. It's true Maggie makes them to a price point and improve with mods. I don't think there's a single person here barring maybe thunder and Steve who don't have something done and there are many, many of us who have them in frames, from Berni to Davey. Not to mention the thousands with Mye Stands.

So they are worth it. They killed the N1x's I had in here too.

I just spent money on other stuff so measurements are on hold but they will be done.

Steve in my room, with the Virtue  amp at the time, no bass. Post mod, tons, as in dont really need a sub at all. Significantly stronger.

Most people with full range speakers still add subs.. Not uncommon.

@ Kevin, I'm adding subs because i want that very low lfe and because i like that extra punch for metal. That's the one area they lack, midbass punch. They punch but during the day I like it to slam.

Anyway, as this is a thread about measurements, I'll leave it to someone who has them.

If want a PG bashing circle jerk, feel free. i think im the only person here with the full mod.

[josh358]

What does Magnepan think of PG's mods?

When I spoke to Wendell about it maybe a year ago, he'd never heard a pair.

[kevin360]

A problem with speaker measurements is context. For the measurements to have meaning, there must exist before and after measurements with all else being identical. Another problem is 'what' to measure. Sure, we can quantify frequency and impulse response, and we can discover the speaker's efficiency, but there could be other benefits which would go unnoticed by such measurements.

A problem with listening impressions is time. When one packs up his speakers and sends them off to be modified, they return weeks later – even a pro like PG cannot do this overnight. It's reasonable and prudent for others to treat the reports of delighted Magnestand owners with some amount of suspicion. It is equally sensible to treat all listening impressions that way, but such is often all one has until taking the plunge him(her)self. In any case, weeks later, the basis for comparison is weak, at best. Even worse is the fact that one will be drunk with dopamine before hearing the first note – a fact that can certainly skew one's impressions.

That's just the way it is with this stuff – all of it. Measurements are nice, but they don't tell the whole story. Listening impressions are circumspect, but they're usually the best guide we have.

---

When I transitioned my MMG panels from their braced, stock frames to their hardwood frames, it was completed in an afternoon. I spent the morning listening to them in MDF and the same evening listening to them in hardwood. Even that is too much time between hearing them each way, but it beats the heck out of weeks. My ears/brain told me that there was an improvement that might be reflected in a proper impulse response test. If I'm not mistaken, Dave conducted such a test and found a measure of improvement in hardwood frames. So, there exists (I'm pretty sure) corroboration for the 'hardwood is better' mindset in the form of measurements. Perhaps, he'll chip in on that point.

---

So far, I don't read any PG-bashing in this thread. I agree that it would be nice to keep it that way. Likewise, let's not bash those who distrust 'just so' explanations. A desire for proof isn't foolish, but it's not likely to ever be completely met. Tastes are variable, so we can't expect universal love for any of this – from the frames to the crossover. That's not bashing anyone or anything – just a cold, dry fact. Perhaps, you find the OP's comment about PG's assessment of the 1.7 objectionable, but it's correct – the supertweeter is a brilliant move on Magnepan's part (not some stupid marketing maneuver). The width of a driver relative to the frequencies it emits is an important consideration. It's still not a true ribbon, but the 1.7's narrow supertweeter does enhance the imaging of that speaker greatly.

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I replaced a pair of full-range speakers with MMGs. I never felt any desire to supplement my AR91s with a sub. The MMGs screamed, “You need a sub!” Within a week, I had one. Eventually, I added the second. In fact, the desire for two is what drove the design of my frames. Now, each MMG is situated directly over (without physical contact with) an REL Q150 – depth and slam are not problems anymore. In fact, in their current near-field setup, the bass has that 'to die for' quality!

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I don't think it's reasonable to expect a manufacturer to comment on the work of someone who modifies their products.

[Davey]

The entire PG topic has little interest for me at this point.
It's interesting that myself (and some others) pointing out the issues ended up being labeled as "Gunn-bashing."  Hmmmm.

Some claims don't need measurements to disprove them.  Like the claimed 6db sensitivity increase.

Gunned speakers bring you to orgasm.  Who cares about measurements or technical claims. 

Dave.

[SteveFord]

I had some white plastic outdoor speakers shaped like giant toadstools which made me feel kind of queasy.
I returned them and bought some Large Advents which my dog mistook for fire hydrants. 

If no one can answer the OP's question about measurements I suggest we put this one to rest.

[Rclark]

Agreed. To rest. But measurements are eventual and I also plan to get an H4 recorder and a camera so you can have a good idea of what they sound like.

[Davey]

As Kevin alluded, any measurements you take would be meaningless.

Any sort of comparison measurements would require an unmodified speaker, a modified speaker, and a consistent testing method in free-field conditions.
And then, even if differences were noted, who's to say which response is preferable, and why? 

In your listening room, you may learn something about your environments "native" response peaks and valleys (which is good info to know), but you can't attach any of that to the speakers...negatively or positively.

It's a complete waste of time to try and associate some sort of objective measurements to some subjective greatness of the Gunn speakers.  Even HE would tell you that. 

Dave.

[rw@cn]

Uh oh, here we go.