[Grit]

Greetings.  I'm new to the list so I am asking for some insights from those that have used the BDA-2 new from the box to broken in.
First, BDA-2 reviews and recommendations from my dealer have been spectacular so it is with great expectations that I brought the dealer's demonstration BDA-2 home.  I use the BPD-2 as my digital source using XLR digital in from the BDP-2 and balanced XLR out to the Preamp.

What I heard was very realistic dynamics for instrument such as the pluck of guitar strings and the squawk of a sax.  What I didn't hear was the huge sound field I've heard so much about, in fact I heard the speakers each as a point source and a good center image mostly for voices and a single instrument from the Bryston.  I spent the next 12 hours AB testing the BDA-2 against my current PS Audio PWD-MkII.  The Bryston had slightly more realistic sound to instruments but a far less realistic sound stage.  It was a relief to get the PWD back into the system for a continuous wall or stage of sound that was all enveloping. 

The dealer said it was likely because the BDA-2 he gave me only had a few hours on it and needed more break in.  My question is could that be the reason and have others experienced anything like this.  I've broken in many components over the years and I'm a big believer in break in but there would have to be a significant improvement to be realistic.  Too many good reviews to hear what I am hearing.

I didn't hear a major change with break-in. Very odd though, as the sound stage my BDP-2/BDA-2 produce is far wider and deeper than the speakers. Except for the room not being square, I have a much less than ideal room/layout. Perhaps try adjusting toe-in on your speakers? You don't have any processing going on in the preamp, right? Just analog?

[So There]

I agree with James and Grit, stashoo99. My BDP-2, running through a BDA-2 and SP3, has a marvelous soundstage, wonderful resolution, and great smoothness (very analog-like). I've not heard better sound in my system. I, too, found no break-in necessary. The BDP-2 is connected to the BDA-2 via a Bryston AES/EBU cable, and the BDA-2 is connected to analog inputs of the SP3 via Bryston balanced cables. I wonder if there's an issue with the sample you heard, as my BDP/BDA combo was immediately and dramatically better than my other sources, including SACD, DVD-A, and DTS-HD/Dolby TrueHD Blu-ray concert discs via HDMI.

Rich
_______________
Whiney Napa Valley

The means — Bryston SP3 | Bryston 6B-SST(C) - L/C/R; 4B-SST(C) - surrounds; 4B-SST(C) - rears | Bryston BDP-2 Digital Player; BDA-2 D/A Converter; Oppo BDP-105 | Paradigm Reference Signature S8 fronts; C5 center; ADP surrounds; S4 rears; two Velodyne DD15 subs | APC S20 | Pioneer Elite PRO-1130

[R. Daneel]

Greetings.  I'm new to the list so I am asking for some insights from those that have used the BDA-2 new from the box to broken in.
First, BDA-2 reviews and recommendations from my dealer have been spectacular so it is with great expectations that I brought the dealer's demonstration BDA-2 home.  I use the BPD-2 as my digital source using XLR digital in from the BDP-2 and balanced XLR out to the Preamp.

What I heard was very realistic dynamics for instrument such as the pluck of guitar strings and the squawk of a sax.  What I didn't hear was the huge sound field I've heard so much about, in fact I heard the speakers each as a point source and a good center image mostly for voices and a single instrument from the Bryston.  I spent the next 12 hours AB testing the BDA-2 against my current PS Audio PWD-MkII.  The Bryston had slightly more realistic sound to instruments but a far less realistic sound stage.  It was a relief to get the PWD back into the system for a continuous wall or stage of sound that was all enveloping. 

The dealer said it was likely because the BDA-2 he gave me only had a few hours on it and needed more break in.  My question is could that be the reason and have others experienced anything like this.  I've broken in many components over the years and I'm a big believer in break in but there would have to be a significant improvement to be realistic.  Too many good reviews to hear what I am hearing.

It was only after several days of continuous use (more than 100 hours) that I started noticing changes in sound stage depth. It is a noticeable improvement. The instruments sound more tightly focused and controlled while some extend further into the left or right of the mix. It is what I was expecting to hear and that is why initial impressions aren't really a good way of evaluationg equipment.

[stashoo99]

Thank you all for the responses.  I'll answer several of your questions here.  I'm using a Mark Levinson 326S preamp so there is some amplification but no other processing.  The system was voiced so that, with other equipment there is a realistic soundstage with depth that extends beyond my front wall slightly and width beyond the speakers at times.  In fact I get instruments and voices occasionally directly to my sides which is shocking.  I have speakers that image well.  My point is it could always be speaker set up but I would discount that for now.  Jim Smith who wrote the book Get Better Sound is coming in two weeks to voice the system in my cubic room.  Jim brings his own DAC for the session, don't know what kind, so I'll have the opportunity to hear at least one more sample for comparison.

I'll try the BDA-2 again after system voicing.  I want the synergy of BDP-2/BDA-2 I've heard so much about. Thanks again.

[R. Daneel]

On the burn-in front, I have to say it is something I have noticed in most audio equipment and it is especially apparent in dynamic transducers. The most dramatic changes I witnessed through the Sennheiser HD650 headphones but not so much the HD800. Amplifiers show differences in sound after a few minutes but it was only till Bryston BHA-1 reached 24 hours of non-stop listening that it changed it's character. The difference was apparent to me since I listened to my reference recordings at the time and suffice to say, I know every note of every instrument. So, it does happen.

On a side note, A-B testing is never really a good idea. When it comes to audio, preconceptions usually affect the way we hear and the minute differences we hear a quickly nullified once we switch to another source. For a proper evaluation, one has to lnow the recording well and spend some time with an audio component in order to get a grasp of how it sounds and what are the key elements that makes it sound the way it does. Only then can we say with some degree of certainty something sounds better than something else.

Cheers!
Antun

[werd]

Thank you all for the responses.  I'll answer several of your questions here.  I'm using a Mark Levinson 326S preamp so there is some amplification but no other processing.  The system was voiced so that, with other equipment there is a realistic soundstage with depth that extends beyond my front wall slightly and width beyond the speakers at times.  In fact I get instruments and voices occasionally directly to my sides which is shocking.  I have speakers that image well.  My point is it could always be speaker set up but I would discount that for now.  Jim Smith who wrote the book Get Better Sound is coming in two weeks to voice the system in my cubic room.  Jim brings his own DAC for the session, don't know what kind, so I'll have the opportunity to hear at least one more sample for comparison.

I'll try the BDA-2 again after system voicing.  I want the synergy of BDP-2/BDA-2 I've heard so much about. Thanks again.

Hi

Its has nothing to do with break-in. What you are hearing is the difference inherit between dacs using a single chip or dual chip set like in the bda2.  I am pretty sure the PS audio is a singular chip output. Your description of the two dac sound-stages identifies differences i have found.

You can mimic the larger sound stage by moving the speakers closer together and doing other room enhancements.. visa-versa.

I prefer the dual config since its harder to set up your system in air/imaging with a single chip. Offered right out of the box using dual dac.

If the PS audio is a dual dac then i don't know. 

[R. Daneel]

Hi

Its has nothing to do with break-in. What you are hearing is the difference inherit between dacs using a single chip or dual chip set like in the bda2.  I am pretty sure the PS audio is a singular chip output. Your description of the two dac sound-stages identifies differences i have found.

You can mimic the larger sound stage by moving the speakers closer together and doing other room enhancements.. visa-versa.

I prefer the dual config since its harder to set up your system in air/imaging with a single chip. Offered right out of the box using dual dac.

If the PS audio is a dual dac then i don't know. 

As far as I know, PS audio Perfect Wave DAC uses a pair of DAC chips from Wolfson, the 8742 I believe.

[werd]

As far as I know, PS audio Perfect Wave DAC uses a pair of DAC chips from Wolfson, the 8742 I believe.

It looks like a single Wolfson WW8741 chip. Delta sigma.

[stashoo99]

Interesting discussion.  Jim Smith will be here tonight to start the voicing.  His plan is to be completed sometime tomorrow night. I will discuss the single vs dual DAC issue with him.  If it is partly a difference in DACS that impacts staging then it will be interesting to see when system is voiced with Jim's DAC and then mine is reinserted in the system what changes there will be.  I will try BDA-2 again.  I can probably get the BDA-2 test unit back from dealer but I suspect Jim won't want to do a lot of testing of different equipment. 

We already will be trying both my Mark Levinson 532 and a pair of Parasound JC-1s.  I want to choose the best amps for the big system and use the other on my B system which as yet doesn't exist other than I have electronics sitting around that make about a half a system.  I really want the B system to be much simpler. 

[werd]

I like your problems.  . Nice amplification to chose from. This is what I see when I look at your system.

You are running dual mono amps (both ML and Para). You are using a stereo ML pre amp. As opposed to a dual mono preamp, and you are using a dac that utilizes a single chip (PS Audio).

I've noticed in SS that component figurations affect the soundstage (out of the box).  Like what you have above. When you inserted in a dual chip dac it going to change the outcome. You know what I'm a talking about because you described it. Notice that ML uses dual dacs In their front ends. http://www.marklevinson.com/Products/Details/28

This is an intentional synergy by ML. You can also get a dual mono pre from ML but it requires more set-up in room.

Bryston uses dual dacs with stereo pres and mono or dual mono amps.

Its the synergy of the components configurations that define what we hear.  Both dacs are good but its just what you want in the end. You will be able to get that sound you like from the PS audio out of the Bda with some room tweaking.

[werd]

It looks like your ML pre amp is dual mono also.

[stashoo99]

We started the evaluation of the stereo system last night in preparation to system voicing today.  Jim uses an Ayre Acoustics modified DAC and a Computer front end.  I don't' know what is inside the Ayre.  It sounds good.

Today we will begin the process of voicing the system starting with analysis of the room for base and reflections to get the general placement of seating, speakers and equipment rack.  Hard to believe but it takes all day to set up the system to play the room.  I'll have the chance to hear my DAC and the Ayre.  Would be good to have the BDA-2 as well to see if what werd says holds true in my system. 

It will be a fun study to see if speakers launching sound waves is the dominant factor or if electronics play a big part in system set up.  My guess is speaker placement and room characteristics will overwhelm electronic difference assuming the electronics are adequate.  I'm looking forward to being educated today.

[werd]

We started the evaluation of the stereo system last night in preparation to system voicing today.  Jim uses an Ayre Acoustics modified DAC and a Computer front end.  I don't' know what is inside the Ayre.  It sounds good.

Today we will begin the process of voicing the system starting with analysis of the room for base and reflections to get the general placement of seating, speakers and equipment rack.  Hard to believe but it takes all day to set up the system to play the room.  I'll have the chance to hear my DAC and the Ayre.  Would be good to have the BDA-2 as well to see if what werd says holds true in my system. 

It will be a fun study to see if speakers launching sound waves is the dominant factor or if electronics play a big part in system set up.  My guess is speaker placement and room characteristics will overwhelm electronic difference assuming the electronics are adequate.  I'm looking forward to being educated today.

The ML pre looks nice. Do you use the 6db or 12 db gain setting?

[stashoo99]

The ML 326S is a nice preamp. It has the features that I didn't even know I wanted and is intuitive to use. It is very well thought out.  The phono stage add in boards are good as well. The sound is transparent.  Its one of my most satisfying pieces of equipment.

I use 6dB for the PS Audio DAC and 12 dB when using the BDA-2 or Ayre. Pretty much all DAC's I've tried over drive the input at 18dB.

[Grit]

I'd be really curious to hear about the final outcome... any update?

[stashoo99]

Grit, I assume the final outcome you are curious about is the result of voicing.  I am now a believer that locking into the room is a huge improvement in sound stage, presence of instruments and involvement in the music.  The really unbelievable part is it is a game of parts of inches in the final setup.  Mr Smith worked tirelessly for a couple of hours the first night and the entire day the second day to analyze the room and dial in the system.  I would recommend his services to help get all you can from your system.

I had the luxury of being able to locate everything anywhere in the room.   No WAF required in this room.  In the end we reversed the location of the seating and speakers in the room and moved the component stack out from between the speakers.  The sound stage now extends outside the speakers on the right and left and goes 6 or 7 feet behind the speakers. There is a presence of voices and instruments that are closer to live and all this using lamp cord for speaker wire.  Yep, lamp cord.  Moving the component stack necessitated a temporary use of longer interconnects or speaker wire.  I don't recommend lamp cord as there is at time some graininess especially in female voices but I'm shocked at how well it works trading higher end cables for proper speaker setup.

I learned a lot in the day and a half and the improvement in performance of my system is greater than the change I've seen from any component replacement.  I think there could be further improvements with some proper room treatments in this very bad room and new cables should arrive next week but I'm enjoying it more now.



 

[stashoo99]

One short additional explanation, having the sound stage extend outside the speakers doesn't sound that significant but the room is 25 X 25 X 25 with a vaulted ceiling.  The room actually works pretty good for higher frequencies, not a lot of reflected waves detected, but doesn't work so good for low frequencies.  In order to get the best overall base, using a real time analyzer (RTA), we found the one spot in the room where all the base notes were present which defined the seating position.  Again because of the base problems with the room there is a long distance between seats and speakers. Because of the increased seat to speaker distance the speakers had to be spaced further apart.  The speakers are quite far apart so when the sound stage goes outside the speakers the result is a really big soundstage.  The room behavior defines where things need to be placed even sometimes when that placement doesn't seem ideal or intuitive.

The RTA also showed I have a 25 Hz source somewhere in the house that messes with low base.  I think the heating system air mover is the culprit.  The RTA is useful tool that can help show you things about your room you didn't know.  Maybe I like this kind of techy stuff  because I'm an engineer but system setup and room behavior was underappreciated by me anyway and I suspect by a lot of us in this hobby.

[James Tanner]

One short additional explanation, having the sound stage extend outside the speakers doesn't sound that significant but the room is 25 X 25 X 25 with a vaulted ceiling.  The room actually works pretty good for higher frequencies, not a lot of reflected waves detected, but doesn't work so good for low frequencies.  In order to get the best overall base, using a real time analyzer (RTA), we found the one spot in the room where all the base notes were present which defined the seating position.  Again because of the base problems with the room there is a long distance between seats and speakers. Because of the increased seat to speaker distance the speakers had to be spaced further apart.  The speakers are quite far apart so when the sound stage goes outside the speakers the result is a really big soundstage.  The room behavior defines where things need to be placed even sometimes when that placement doesn't seem ideal or intuitive.

The RTA also showed I have a 25 Hz source somewhere in the house that messes with low base.  I think the heating system air mover is the culprit.  The RTA is useful tool that can help show you things about your room you didn't know.  Maybe I like this kind of techy stuff  because I'm an engineer but system setup and room behavior was underappreciated by me anyway and I suspect by a lot of us in this hobby.

Hi Stash

I had the same issue with this room in my home which is 20x25 with 10 to 18 foot slanted ceiling.  Had to employ major room treatments but even then could not get the bass pressure correct.




james

[stashoo99]

Rooms can be frustrating.  All the bass notes are there for me down to about 40Hz then there isn't much.  I can feel the floor shake two rooms away but not in the room where I have the speakers.  Sound is strange stuff.  My concern is that even subs won't really cure the problem.  I have a small sub on my surround system in the bedroom that I'll move in to do some testing and another larger sub arrives tomorrow.  Crossing my fingers but I don't expect miracles.  Speakers are already full range but subs may launch low frequencies in different directions that change standing waves.  Wish I knew more about this subject.

Did treatment improve bass any in your room?  I assume the concept is to absorb what would be reflected waves to allow hearing direct waves.

[stashoo99]

Are those wave traps flanking each window and floor to ceiling in corners?  Nice setup.  What diameter are the traps?