[MAS_audio]

I fell in love the first time that I heard Avantegarde Duos powered by smallish tube amps.  So I bought a pair and power them with unique Audiopax Model 88 monoblocks.  Technically, the Audiopax amps can deliver 35 watts max but with the Avantgarde Duos having 101 dB efficiency, they never reach that point in my 18' x 20' listening room.  The high efficiency makes the Duos highly detailed but also highly unforgiving about noise upstream!

Bizarrely, when I was having an upgrade done to my amps I hooked up a cheap class D amp - you know the type that sells for under $100!  The Duo's were remarkably musical and worked fine, though it was strange to pass a signal from my dedicated CD transport, ladder DAC, BAT tube preamp into a $100 amp and back out to the Duos!  No, not a competition for the Audiopax monoblocks, but an interesting test while they were gone!

[opnly bafld]

Nice system.
Looking at your amplifiers, the unique aspect is not really that the KT88s are strapped triode (many companies do that), but rather it is the use of 2 tubes and series connecting them for a little more output than a single KT88 provides.

[JLM]

Horns (high efficiency, lack of deep bass) play into the weaknesses of low powered tube amps.  Decades ago small tube amps were the only game in town, so horns were the only viable alternative for large venues.  Tubes and horns are also well known for colorations and they can hide behind each other non-linear reproductions.  Therefore this combination is a favorite of vintage gear lovers. 

[opnly bafld]

Horns (high efficiency, lack of deep bass) play into the weaknesses of low powered tube amps.  Decades ago small tube amps were the only game in town, so horns were the only viable alternative for large venues.  Tubes and horns are also well known for colorations and they can hide behind each other non-linear reproductions.  Therefore this combination is a favorite of vintage gear lovers.

Fixed it for you.

[Tyson]

Horns (high efficiency, lack of deep bass) play into the weaknesses of low powered tube amps.  Decades ago small tube amps were the only game in town, so horns were the only viable alternative for large venues.  Tubes and horns are also well known for colorations and they can hide behind each other non-linear reproductions.  Therefore this combination is a favorite of vintage gear lovers. 

Really, you're saying that something like the JBL Everest DD66000 is colored and lacks bass? 





Speaking for myself, I don't own horn speakers any more, but any 'coloration' they may have is more than made up for with their outstanding transparency and jackhammer dynamics.  They make regular speakers (6" midwoofer and 1" tweeter in a box) sound veiled, slow and muffled. 

[Early B.]

Tubes and horns are also well known for colorations...

"Coloration" is as equally meaningless an audiophile term as is "neutral." EVERYTHING in the signal path "colors" the sound. And even that last statement is meaningless because we don't know what the original sound sounds like. In fact, there is no "original sound" upon which we can ascribe terms such as coloration or neutrality. With most recordings, artists and musicians rarely play together in studio, and even if they do, instruments and vocals are often captured separately, mixed, and remixed a million times until an engineer is satisfied with what he reproduced. So unless we're listening to a song played back in the same studio and on the same console where it was mixed, we have no idea what our favorite tracks were intended to sound like.   



 

[JLM]

Those loudspeakers don't use horns for bass.  Klipschorns as an example do, but only go down to 40 Hz and use 9ft of adjoining walls.  The best bass horns are concrete and the size of a garage. 

If you've attended concerts of unamplified music you know what "real" music sounds like. 

BTW I've owned JBL's and consider the 2-way active 708P to be the best all around loudspeakers I've ever heard/owned.  Loudspeakers like the Everests need a huge room (minimum 10,000 cubic feet) to sound their best. 

[jtcf]

JLM knows what he's talking about. Tubes and horns do compliment each other.That's how most of us choose our systems after all,no matter what combination we prefer as individuals.Which amp and speakers go best together, which cartridge, which dac,etc.Every component has it's strengths,weaknesses and colorations.

[opnly bafld]

JLM knows what he's talking about.

That's certainly one opinion.

It would be nice if he could start his own thread sharing his "knowledge/wisdom" (which I happily would ignore) instead of crapping on this thread started by someone sharing thoughts about their system.

[Early B.]

The OP has my dream speakers. They're absolutely stunning. I have no doubts they sound phenomenal with tube gear and a more recent Class D amp.   

[FullRangeMan]

Fixed it for you.

   
Great post, you most kind.
Tube amps are all about colorations, low power and hi impedance and they sound glorious.

[rodge827]

That's certainly one opinion.

It would be nice if he could start his own thread sharing his "knowledge/wisdom" (which I happily would ignore) instead of crapping on this thread started by someone sharing thoughts about their system.

+1

[planet10]

   
Great post, you most kind.
Tube amps are all about colorations, low power and hi impedance and they sound glorious.

You mean single ended tube amplifiers. The really good ones have quite low colouration. But the bad ones can be very coloured (i would like to hear a good SE 300B some day).

And it is not a realm exclusive to tube amplifiers.

dave

[Woodsage]

My Oris 200 horns with AER drivers sounded wonderful. Sure they had bass bins,  most horn systems do. Unless you have room for giant bass horns. The bass was also fantastic, fast, tight, visceral and musical.

I used quite a number of tube amps on the horn section and most of them sounded great. One of the best amps I used with that system was the Cyrus Brenneman Cavalier Plus. There’s one I wish I hadn’t sold…

It seems a certain member here tends to project his opinions in a negative fashion into many threads where they are unnecessary and often off topic.

[FullRangeMan]

You mean single ended tube amplifiers. The really good ones have quite low colouration. But the bad ones can be very coloured (i would like to hear a good SE 300B some day).

And it is not a realm exclusive to tube amplifiers.

dave

Yes I mean SET.   PP tube amps are only more power.
Forget 300B its all about marketing hype to audiophools. , very non linear  tube and yet expensive.

[planet10]

My Oris 200 horns with AER drivers sounded wonderful. Sure they had bass bins,  most horn systems do. Unless you have room for giant bass horns. The bass was also fantastic, fast, tight, visceral and musical.

Given that a horn maxes out at 3-4 octaves such a system needs to be 3-way at least.

Some of th ebig systems with proper bass horns hit 5-way.

dave

[planet10]

Yes I mean SET.   PP tube amps are only more power.

There us way more difference than that.

And PP vrs SE is not sufficent, execution is important. VERY important.

dave

[Wayner]

I've noticed that the OPs photo shows dynamic drivers used with the horns, so it's a hybrid. I consider (as do others) my Klipsch speakers horn speakers and have a fairly high (at least not typical) efficiency, and require very little power to run at typical, moderate listening levels.

I just finished building a Bang and Olafson Ice amp (BTL) that can pump out between 51 and 100 wrms per channel depending on impedance. I have not yet tried them on my Klipsch, but is in the bucket list (system is currently out in the garage).

I certainly would love to hear those speaker systems with an amp like mine. I'm sure it would be mind-blowing, as digital Ice amps are very fast and can produce a large sound stage.

Wayner

[planet10]

I've noticed that the OPs photo shows dynamic drivers used with the horns, so it's a hybrid.

I too have a bone to pick with those that call hybrids horns.

Given a 20-20k range, halfway is 640Hz (when working up from 20), so the systems with horns (given 5 octaves 2 horns) covering 500-600Hz up are half horns.

The big 300Hz horn as mentioned above moves the XO to an octave lower, but (as we usually see them) they are direct radiators above (300-600-1200-2500) 2-2.5kHz.



This one of the nicer 600 Hz horns, needs an ST above.



Some people will even call a system with a horn tweeter a horn system, 1K is rare, 2-2,5k more common. 2.5k is the top 3 octaves.



A backloaded horn, most commonly seen with FRs, is only a horn below about 250 Hz



Unless ithas its front also horn loaded) ie Beauhorn, Hegeman-Lowther Reproducer. The B-Horn is not large, but doesn’t go that low. The latter is about a metre by a metre, by a bit less deep, and pushed against the wall should do 35-40Hz (educated guess). Both will not be horn loaded at th top, just direct (or reflected) radiator.





A real horn system is huge, or cleverly uses the corners (or walls to a lesser extent) of the room to make the horn mouth “larger”. K-Horns for example.





Horn systems often struggle with the issues brought by the significantly different horn lengths and getting the timing right.

dave

[FullRangeMan]

This is a independent Lowther DX4 Beauhorn Virtuoso review:
http://www.glowinthedarkaudio.com/lowtherbeauhorn.html