[dB Cooper]

Wow! A bit too much treble and suddenly, apocalypse.

Dogs and cats, living together...

[forky]

As I'm waiting for my new 242 GIK panels to arrive - and the ABB1s to be painted along w/ stands for freestanding - I have a question:

If I can listen to say, Pink Floyd, Thievery Corporation and Dave Brubeck at 90-95 db without any brightness then why would that change for say....Pearl Jam, Vs. (1st pressing which is widely regarded as a well recorded and cut album) or Alice in Chains self-titled/dog (same as Vs. and is fairly rare)? The difference is heavy electric guitar and higher-freq vocals.

I don't have any brightness issues with "cleaner" music but once the heavy electric guitars start going along and esp with high end vocals AND the DBs are >83-85 --- then the brightness starts. Is there anyone here who has Sapphires and can listen to hard rock (with good recordings/pressings - they are out there) at high volume without brightness?

I'll know more next week when I have the panels mounted - although my in-laws will in town so.....may not get to listen much. Know more meaning whether or not it is the room being overloaded or the speakers. It could be something else but I don't think so since this is only with a certain type of music.

Also, for me, my sense is not the high frequencies that are the issue but the midrange.....and possibly (!) the low crossover for the Sapphire tweeter which is then overloaded.....or maybe not.

[Mr. Big]

As I'm waiting for my new 242 GIK panels to arrive - and the ABB1s to be painted along w/ stands for freestanding - I have a question:

If I can listen to say, Pink Floyd, Thievery Corporation and Dave Brubeck at 90-95 db without any brightness then why would that change for say....Pearl Jam, Vs. (1st pressing which is widely regarded as a well recorded and cut album) or Alice in Chains self-titled/dog (same as Vs. and is fairly rare)? The difference is heavy electric guitar and higher-freq vocals.

I don't have any brightness issues with "cleaner" music but once the heavy electric guitars start going along and esp with high end vocals AND the DBs are >83-85 --- then the brightness starts. Is there anyone here who has Sapphires and can listen to hard rock (with good recordings/pressings - they are out there) at high volume without brightness?

I'll know more next week when I have the panels mounted - although my in-laws will in town so.....may not get to listen much. Know more meaning whether or not it is the room being overloaded or the speakers. It could be something else but I don't think so since this is only with a certain type of music.

Also, for me, my sense is not the high frequencies that are the issue but the midrange.....and possibly (!) the low crossover for the Sapphire tweeter which is then overloaded.....or maybe not.

It always gets back to the recordings, is it done naturally? warm, aggressive in your face, or bright? You also have to ask who the recording was made for and how might 99% of those who buy it play it by what system. It can drive me nuts that I can listen to a whole batch of music and then I run into a batch that sounds horrible, now a colored or warmer speaker can make the horrible sound more listenable (but still sucks), whereas a speaker like the Quads (not the 57's) will make the sound of that recording sound as it is, Spatial are no different, they present you what it receives, be great to have a speaker do everything from superb recordings to head banging, rap, hip-hop, etc. But the reality is a lot of popular music was never made sonic-wise to be played in good to high-end audio systems. I remember back in the 70s and 80's when Vinyl rock records sounded as thick as mud due to the compression and recording style of Rock, while others sounded like chalk on a blackboard. There were still good ones of course, but a lot was sonic-wise crap, you listened to them because you liked the music, not for sound quality and that took some getting used to, which was why many purchase EQ boxes to adjust the highs or lows. With music being so processed today is hard to bear on a good system, but we audiophiles are not a blip on their radar, and production values are based on who the majority of buyers are and how they listen to their music.

[forky]

It always gets back to the recordings, is it done naturally? warm, aggressive in your face, or bright? You also have to ask who the recording was made for and how might 99% of those who buy it play it by what system. It can drive me nuts that I can listen to a whole batch of music and then I run into a batch that sounds horrible, now a colored or warmer speaker can make the horrible sound more listenable (but still sucks), whereas a speaker like the Quads (not the 57's) will make the sound of that recording sound as it is, Spatial are no different, they present you what it receives, be great to have a speaker do everything from superb recordings to head banging, rap, hip-hop, etc. But the reality is a lot of popular music was never made sonic-wise to be played in good to high-end audio systems. I remember back in the 70s and 80's when Vinyl rock records sounded like think mud due to the compression and recording style of Rock, while others sounded like chalk on a blackboard. There were still good ones of course, but a lot was sonic-wise crap, you listened to them because you liked the music, not for sound quality and that took some getting used to, which was why many purchase EQ boxes to adjust the highs or lows. With music being so processed today is hard to bear on a good system, but we audiophiles are not a blip on their radar, and production values are based on who the majority of buyers are and how they listen to their music.

I completely get that which is why I've spent a lot of time and a small fortune (treasure) hunting for the best pressings. I did listen to people on Hoffman but also was able to check out thier systems - some better than others but there are a lot of exp people with excellent systems on Hoffman. While I took some of the comments in Discogs into considertion I gave them little weight (some more than others and a few will list their system in their comment).

Two comments on this:

1. My "treasures" (and have put more than a few in the "sell" pile! - probably close to 40+ in the past 12 mos) sound great at lower volume. If the pressing is the issue, it wouldn't sound good at low volume - so when I turn the volume up they only sound bright above 82-85 db. To me this means that it has nothing to do with the pressing, correct?
2. A few months ago I bought some Focal Stellia headphones since my listening room is now the living room and the wife can't stand the volume knob on .5. When I listen in the headphones I rarely turn up the volume like I do with the M3s - mostly to protect my hearing - I realize it takes a hit w/ the M3s at volume but I listen to the Focals almost every night for an hour so try to keep the levels low-ish. They are amazing headphones btw. Anyway, just now I put on Pearl Jam's Vs. and played "GO" which is one of the many main offenders for brightness and played is LOUD in the Stellias and ---- no brightness. Not a hint of it. Was clear and loud - no brightness, just clean and loud with good seperation. Btw, that is another thing that goes hand-in-hand with the brightness when the volume goes up - lack of seperation and instruments start blending together. I think it is either the room or the tweeters have a crossover that is too low and can't handle that much (as that reviewer I spoke to said "the tweeters are asked to do too much) - possibly both.

Also just to reinforce that I very much love the M3s for non-hard rock music. I was listening to this last week at high volume and was blown away at how good it sounded. Btw, I found out about this record in another thread here so thanks to whoever posted that: https://www.discogs.com/release/13439481-Dominique-Fils-Aim%C3%A9-Stay-Tuned

Some recordings are better than others but I don't listen to bad recordings - I realize this is subjective and although my system isn't super high-end it is pretty revealing. Esp w/ my carts - either the VDH Crimson which I'm running now or the Hana Red.

[DaveWin88]

forky How big is your room? Man I'm 8ft away and never exceed 75db. If your room is plenty big enough, I wonder if maybe your amp is clipping at those volumes?

[forky]

Hi Dave,

My room is 19.78 long x 17.56 wide x 10.75 tall according to my digital tape measure. I don't think the amp is clipping becuase I can listen to other music even louder w/o an issue and the volume is only at around 3.75-4.25-ish at 85 db (for most recordings) - although I realize volume knobs are relative ("11 exactly, one louder. /// why don't you just make ten louder and make ten the top number? /// These go to 11"  ). 90 db is around 5 and 95 is around 6 although I've only gone that high a very few times. I only turned my volume knob above 6 once (wasn't hard rock and sounded fine although obviously very LOUD) and that's when I blew my tweeters  last September. I may be wrong but I don't think even that one time over 6 that my amp was clipping - the tweeters couldn't handle it but again it was LOUD so ...maybe. That was a very failed experiment!

 I haven't done the math though as far as how many watts the M3 (92db /1w ?) needs to make 90 db but wouldn't that be less than 1 watt? I have a Primaluna Evo 300 w/ (4) KT-150s.

[forky]

Btw, I'm older now so I usually can't listen to music at 85-90 db much longer than 45 minutes to maybe an hour. My wife usually is only gone about that long anyway.  Also when it gets too loud it is more about live music and less about the quality of the playback and these days I prefer the latter. However, I find that 85-90 I can still get accurate playback (with certain music) , not completely destroy my hearing and enjoy and feel the music.

I do think that 95+ continuous is too LOUD (except for peaks) and never have seen 100 (but didn't measure when I went to 6.5 on the volume) and use my DB meter almost every time I listen (not phone meter).

But....this is why I was mentioning the DB levels and hard rock. Although there ARE a few of you here who have Sapphire M3s and listen to music around 85-90, I don't get the feeling that many listen to hard rock + loud (but a few and I have read your posts!). Which I'm guessing (!) is why many don't run into this brigthness and loss of seperation.

As mentiond a few times I don't have this issue at lower volumes with hard rock or higher volumes with other genres - and all with very good or great recordings.  . However, I DO need room treatment. The GIK panels should be shipping tomorrow and the ABB1s were painted today. I still need to figure out stands for those since they aren't going on the walls.

[DaveWin88]

Oh I do remember you had that great space. You know, I wanted to say back a week or so ago, you should consider turning your system around and fire down the short wall? I think you could get a more intimate (for a lack of a better word) experience and could play it at lower volume (mostly because of the shorter space) As far as clipping, you're right about how little actual watts one would need to get that db but I'm sure theirs more than that to it? current. Not sure how tube amps work...transformers. You made a damn good point about the problem? being the crossover point of the M100. btw does anyone know if Spatial give measurement graphs with there speakers.   

[forky]

Thanks. When we were shopping for homes I of course was immediately scoping for where my system was going to go. The plan was a MIL detached sweet or similar which of course didn't work out. All the homes we looked at (FL) were single story which didn’t and doesn't help. Anyway, I had originally planned to put my system on the short wall but then my GIK rep. recommended that the stereo go on the glass wall (with curtains) so the speakers each had the same type-wall for 1st and 2nd reflections - so I changed it.

That said, I took the advice from some here in the other recent thread (I'll bump after my GIKs are in) and made an equilateral triangle and used the Cardas site. It took me a while but I got the speakers at 1/3 and my seat at 1/3, the speakers each equidistant from the side walls and a 7.5' triangle. It was a larger triangle last week but I lost the center. I haven't listened to this new setup yet but will do so tomorrow when my wife goes to an appt. I think I will likely move the chair back some to 9' -ish if it still sounds good even though it will then be an isosceles.

I think I’m a bit past green in this hobby but maybe not much past and still don’t know squat about electronics. According to this: https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/integrated-amplifiers/products/primaluna-evo-300-tube-integrated-amp,

“All PrimaLuna products use massive, potted toroidal transformers. PrimaLuna transformers are enclosed in a metal housing and then potted in a non-microphonic resin to further reduce noise and to protect the windings from moisture and deterioration forever.”

And then there is another paragraph about them below that. It shows as 42 watts/ch but that is with EL 34s. I don’t know how much the power is raised by KT-150s but probably – well, I have no idea but would guess it would be..... more.

[morganc]

Are you using stock el cheapo 12 au7 tubes in your amp?  If so that will play a big role and worth researching best options to upgrade.  Any good tube supplier should know that amp well and which tubes will make it sing. If not, disregard 🤣! I’m asking this about tubes, but basically you’re looking for the weak link in your chain. Spatials will reveal all changes and any weak link will be heard !  It could be the room, tubes, cables, etc. for me this is the fun part of building a system, trouble shooting it and tweaking it until you dial in your desired sound.  Some add resistors it seems and others like myself tweak tubes and cables and dacs and streamers etc. 

[forky]

Hello,

I think my system is fairly even componant-wise w/o one thing outshining another too much. I did change out the front tubes when I went to the KT150s. I tried the Mazda Cliftes (NOS) and they were too bright and then some NOS Mullards and the same and then.........Radiotecnique (sp)! Love 'em! Kept all the sparkle of the Mazdas and took out the rough edges of the others. I did leave the Mazdas in on the sides but I've read they don't do much. I did buy some spare Radios last year so may try those on the sides and see what happens. They are in a box somewhere around here.

Cables are Lessloss except the power cable to the turntable. I honestly couldn't tell the differnce between any of the power cables I tried (Lessloss, DH labs and stock). I did however hear a change for the better with the Lessloss innerconnects (TT to phonostage and phonostage to int amp). I have to say it was pretty amazing - although not huge, it lowered the "noise" some w/o losing anything else.

Btw I have a dedicated line to my system. I may try a Puritan 156 when business picks back up. The wife and I just agreed to hosehold spending freeze until biz picks back up (my vinyl habbit is the hardest thing to break right now!) so any new hifi stuff will have to wait. That said, I consider myself more about the music than the system - the system is only there for me to enjoy my music. I know this is obvious but I think some forget that when going down rabbit holes. Once I do get this brightness figured out (and speaker placement) then I'm done. My last system lasted me about 30 years...it still sounds good but I wanted to take it up a notch (or 3 or 4). I REALLY hope the panels take care of this issue. If not I'll have to wait until our $ freeze is over and either sell and replace the M3s or  ....since much of my music sounds fantastic - I may just buy a second pair of speakers for hard rock. Maybe a used Klipsch or Ohm.

[Mr. Big]

I completely get that which is why I've spent a lot of time and a small fortune (treasure) hunting for the best pressings. I did listen to people on Hoffman but also was able to check out thier systems - some better than others but there are a lot of exp people with excellent systems on Hoffman. While I took some of the comments in Discogs into considertion I gave them little weight (some more than others and a few will list their system in their comment).

Two comments on this:

1. My "treasures" (and have put more than a few in the "sell" pile! - probably close to 40+ in the past 12 mos) sound great at lower volume. If the pressing is the issue, it wouldn't sound good at low volume - so when I turn the volume up they only sound bright above 82-85 db. To me this means that it has nothing to do with the pressing, correct?
2. A few months ago I bought some Focal Stellia headphones since my listening room is now the living room and the wife can't stand the volume knob on .5. When I listen in the headphones I rarely turn up the volume like I do with the M3s - mostly to protect my hearing - I realize it takes a hit w/ the M3s at volume but I listen to the Focals almost every night for an hour so try to keep the levels low-ish. They are amazing headphones btw. Anyway, just now I put on Pearl Jam's Vs. and played "GO" which is one of the many main offenders for brightness and played is LOUD in the Stellias and ---- no brightness. Not a hint of it. Was clear and loud - no brightness, just clean and loud with good seperation. Btw, that is another thing that goes hand-in-hand with the brightness when the volume goes up - lack of seperation and instruments start blending together. I think it is either the room or the tweeters have a crossover that is too low and can't handle that much (as that reviewer I spoke to said "the tweeters are asked to do too much) - possibly both.

Also just to reinforce that I very much love the M3s for non-hard rock music. I was listening to this last week at high volume and was blown away at how good it sounded. Btw, I found out about this record in another thread here so thanks to whoever posted that: https://www.discogs.com/release/13439481-Dominique-Fils-Aim%C3%A9-Stay-Tuned

Some recordings are better than others but I don't listen to bad recordings - I realize this is subjective and although my system isn't super high-end it is pretty revealing. Esp w/ my carts - either the VDH Crimson which I'm running now or the Hana Red.

The great thing about headphones listening takes out the room acoustics which is a big part of what you hear in music reproduction. I opened my 2 windows on the front wall to allow fresh air in yesterday and I played so music later in the day and I said wow that really sounds good, I mean good, in the evening I closed the windows and the sound lost the relaxed openesss I heard, so if I could I open those windows everytime I played my system, there was none of the negative effects with the windows open, but in the winter and the heat  he summer that be a challenge..smile! So you have to accept the sound as it is, while not perfect and you know it, it is still enjoyable.

My headphones played from my Marantz SA-10 can take you right into the recording studio at times, with no room effects or outside noise, just silence, and music wrapped around you. It is the same no matter the speakers I use from Legacy, Dynaudio, Quads, or Spatial all are impacted by our rooms where headphones are not, so you cannot compare headphone listening to room listening. There is just so much difference in the way the music gets to our ears. Which is why many have headphone systems and not audio systems. Room accoutics is the devil in reproduction no matter the gear or the money spent in my experience.

[forky]

The great thing about headphones listening takes out the room acoustics which is a big part of what you hear in music reproduction. I opened my 2 windows on the front wall to allow fresh air in yesterday and I played so music later in the day and I said wow that really sounds good, I mean good, in the evening I closed the windows and the sound lost the relaxed openesss I heard, so if I could I open those windows everytime I played my system, there was none of the negative effects with the windows open, but in the winter and the heat  he summer that be a challenge..smile! So you have to accept the sound as it is, while not perfect and you know it, it is still enjoyable.

My headphones played from my Marantz SA-10 can take you right into the recording studio at times, with no room effects or outside noise, just silence, and music wrapped around you. It is the same no matter the speakers I use from Legacy, Dynaudio, Quads, or Spatial all are impacted by our rooms where headphones are not, so you cannot compare headphone listening to room listening. There is just so much difference in the way the music gets to our ears. Which is why many have headphone systems and not audio systems. Room accoutics is the devil in reproduction no matter the gear or the money spent in my experience.

Cool, yes I have really enjoyed my headphones over the past few months - even though they are closed back (so others won't here).

However, I was not comparing sound stage, etc. but just making the point that I'm not getting the brightness at loud volume in my headphones, that to me means it isn't the recording and it is likley either the speakers or the lack of treatment or both. Hoping it is the treatment.

Good news is that (redone) GIK panels will be here tomorrow. The bad news is that I probably will still be in headphones for another 10 days or so with family coming so I may not be able to "test" them. I did listen w/ the Abb1s (roughly) in place today along w/ the new spearker positioning and it was very, very good.

[catluck]

Forky - I see that you're running a Prima Luna Evo 300. Beautiful stuff. I just wonder if, before undertaking all the efforts at sound treatment, etc., an amp change might be "a"  if not "the" solution?  You know where I'm going.... I find the GanFets sweeter, purer, and truer, tonally and timbrally, than tubes.  When you can try a GanFet product at NO COST (other than shipping) for 15 days, what have you got to lose other than, potentially, bias, predisposition, and tube related anomalies?

[lazbisme]

I must second catluck's question!

[forky]

yes that is a good thought! I went down this path about a year ago via a zillion forum searches in audiogon and elsewhere and it turns out - the same as most everything else - a few thought PL were bright and some didn't. How they were able to pinpoint that to thier amp though I don't know. I even borrowed my bro's Adcom 545 but never got around to it and had to give it back. 

I have an old Rotel amp and preamp I can hook up. I replaced them w/ the PL in July 21 becuase there was a lot of crackling (I have read this is a pretty easy fix usually) but am willing to give it a try. Not that a 1991 Rotel amp and preamp is the final word on this but I did buy it from a very high-end store in 1991 and this Rotel setup was the only mid-line he would carry at that time.

If my wife sees another box delivered right now (there have been a lot of vinyl delieveries these past 18 mos) she will kill me. 

That said, would it be the amp if I don't have these 2 issues (bright and loss of sep)  with my jazz, electronic and regular rock records even when the music is LOUD? I don't know  but seems like if it was the amp it would show up there...? When I was setting up my speakers again yesterday I played Propellerheads LOUD and it was crystal clear and lovely. 

[jjss49]

forky

i do agree with others that the primaluna's can significantly benefit from changing out the stock chinese 12au7 tubes the units are equipped with from the factory, particularly in the center input stage positions - the pre's/amp's become noticeably less stident and more dimensional in its sound (mine was a hp dialogue prem power amp) with those tubes changed out to better old stock ones

fyi also - old stock american 12au7's are not crazy expensive - just get a quiet set from any of the well known sources, they will last a long time too

if you would like, you can pm me, i have many old stock rca ge sylvania 12au7's i can share if you don't trust ebay or other typical sources

good luck

[forky]

Thanks JSS - I mentioned this above but I realize I can be long winded and even I can tune out reading my old posts. 

Anyway, I have Radiotechniques in the front two AU7s and they made a BIG impact on lowering the brightness of the Mazda Cliftes (which I still keep in the outside 4/ 2 on each side) and NOS Mullards but still kept the good stuff w/o blanketing the highs. I've been afraid that if I tried something even more tame being concernred that it would hurt the 75-80% of my collection that isn't hard rock. I like the Radios so much I bought 2 extra sets last year before the tube craziness in Jan/Feb.

The 4 power tubes are KT-150s. I haven't heard of those being bright but anythng is possible (?). They did add a lot of ummmph! over the EL 34s for sure.

But you just reminded me (!) I do have another set of tubes I purchased from Brent Jesse - GE Blacks - I'll dig those out and try them and if they don't work I'll PM you to follow up if they don't work - and if my new panels don't help. 3 of 6 of the 242s just showed up.

[jjss49]

hey forky sorry i missed your post where you did indeed talk about tube replacements for the primaluna

my bad!