AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: Mr. Big on 23 Oct 2021, 03:52 pm
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I've been seeing a lot of the same questions or concerns on the new Spatial speakers and I've thought I chime in on why that might be perceived at 1st based on my experience with many different speakers over the years and styles of speakers from a box, panels to electrostatic and Unidirectional speakers. Efficiency from 84Db to 94Db. What is a constant is the more efficient a speaker is the more open and dynamic that speakers will sound and it will be perceived as bright at 1st because the lower efficiency speakers will always sound a little more laid back and relaxed, as are Maggie's and Electrostatics, the more dynamics a speaker can put out the more open and upfront and present they will sound. I loved my Quads and Maggie's once set up right and the room acoustics took care of. Dynaudio Confidence 5's were in the mid-'80s only at best in efficiency with a big amp they could come to life, smaller amps more of a pleasant laid back sound, with highs sounding rolled off. Put a high current amp on them it became night and day speakers, with highs open, clean, and present with bass that could really impact the recording. They sounded more aggressive than when they were on the smaller amp if you A/B them, but that would be misleading because after you adjust to having the dynamics and openness, you started to hear recording sound more real, microdynamics where the soft is soft but the swing to louder is really where the sound becomes more real and alive. Kiplish speakers can be 100dB TO 105dB efficiency, people hear them and our put back because they never heard such dynamics, the speed, and bite of horn, electric guitars, etc. Recordings come alive due to the increased dynamics and efficiency. You also can hear the same perception of a preamp that is is more open, fast, lower noise, PRAT, and more dynamics.
Spatial Audio speakers are very highly efficient and super dynamic and due to the design being open baffle and very open, dynamic,, and also lighting fast, this will take some adjustment coming from your past speakers, and could well seem more forward and bright if you're coming from speakers that are panels, less efficient, many Box speakers where music does not open up and breathe, and Electrostatics that have limited dynamic range and a rolled top end, even though what they do right is unreal good and natural in the best way. Quad lovers never leave Quads or they return and for good reason they are natural-sounding and due to lack of in-your-face sound and dynamics, they make music soo enjoyable. Yet I and others who have tried the Spatials are very happy with them, that says a whole lot. I treated the Spatial like my Quad speakers because they are open baffle there is some sound coming from the back of them though nowhere like an Electrostatic that has as much sound coming out the back as the front, so I already had a step up in-room treatment and experience with such a speaker.
A more very efficient, dynamic speaker, and open sounding speaker may sound bright at 1st, but it is because you hear a more live presentation, where the recordings come to life, huge swings in dynamics and open and extended highs, with a bottom end if on the recording can really make an impact, and the bottom-end really supports the highs as well as the midrange, you need a good bottom end to bring out the midrange and the highs, it is how our hearing and brain perceives and processes sound.
The other improvement due to high efficiency and low distortion is you playback music at a high SPL level and don't realize it, thus when say horns go off they are over loud and will sound bright. I've done this, and I was surprised how much I turned the volume down and the music was still real-sounding but now in balance, as Peter Walker once said "every recording as a certain loudness level where it sounds its best then after that you lose the sound quality. The designer at Legacy speakers told me once use the human voice, listen to when people speak to you, did they sound loud, sharp, overly detailed or relaxed and laid back, which is how the human voice does sound. Turn the volume up till the image comes to life and the sound is natural and in the room. The worst case of what not to do is going to audio shows and many speakers designers blasted their music at such a high volume it makes for a horrible listening experience. Louder is not better, and Spatial's put out easy SPL with very little watts, so watch your volume level for natural sound. Your room plays a huge role so treat it with care, the sound bouncing around your room, off TV's, windows, etc. you can bet the sound will be bright. Your room is important so treat it. The walls in front of each side and the wall behind you need treatment no matter the speakers. Any speaker can sound bright in a room that enhances the top end, room bounce, and reflected walls and windows.
Now can the Spatial sound be bright? sure they can like any good speaker can, my Quads could sound like crap, dull or lacking bass, or bright and super clean with no body to the music, all it took was lack of care in setup, learning how the speaker reacted to the placement and adding any style of spike under them. learning where they sounded good and then when I would start to lose it, how much toeing which also impacted the dynamics big time but once "learned" how they reacted in your room and where they sounded good and bad, they were easy to set up and play with, 1/4" toeing in our out could change their sound and balance and once you locked them in and that is when you knew you had them at their sonic best. So if a person came by to listen to them and they were not set up right their opinion of the speaker would not have been positive, this is for any speaker by the way.
My power cords changes are so easy to hear their impact good and bad. I just added one AQ Dragon ( was jaw-dropping good) on my amp and the speakers went to another level of performance with increased microdynamics, even better bass, and lower noise floor which equals more little details. I should say I use Hurricanes and Firebird power cords on the front end gear and PS Audio P-12 Regenerator that I use for my front end gear. My system is simple. Marantz SA-10 SACD/DAC, Mark Levinson 326S preamp, McIntosh MC 402 amp, AQ Firebird interconnects and speaker cables.
Now I've heard speakers set up right and they sound analytical and bright, with lots of detail, tight bottom, and just not my cup of tea, nor how real music sounds, but the guy enjoyed them and that is all that mattered. Many stores sell speakers like this nowadays, it's a trend, loud and bright I guess to impress you. I am glad to say Spatial Audio speakers are not that way, nowhere near being like that. Now if the recording sucks as I like to say then Spatial will let you hear that, and with current music being overly produced and processed with tracks being laid down outside of a studio and then played with by the producer for a sound he wants will that is the sound you get and should get. Play recordings that were not recorded this way, in a studio with all musicians present, and the Spatial take you there and do it at a cost that is CHEAP in today's ultra costing audio gear. Some 2-way speakers can cost $20,000 or more and not touch any Spatial speaker.
So yes, more open, dynamic, high efficient speakers with speed and ultra microdynamics will sound brighter and that is any speaker which has those design ideals to bring dynamics and efficiency and wide bandwidth, coming from a speaker that cannot do all that and then to a speaker like that can, and give it all to you when you play it back, as an audio store salesman once said to me, doesn't blame the messenger, that recording just sucks! The bane of us all we want all of our recordings to sound good but that never was possible be it vinyl, CD/digital, or lastly streaming will never change that. The better the speaker the more poor recording our laid bare. But the nice thing about Spatial's is they make even those recordings bearable and somewhat enjoyable in non-critical listening.
Spatial are great speakers, solid design and priced where they can be affordable to many and not just a few. Right now I plan to have my M3's Sapphires for a long time to come and at my age, it may very well be my last speaker. I've heard great speakers in different designs and Spatial are as good as any and better than some up to $30,000 in price range after that you're into real crazy money and that is out of my league, nor of any interest to me, you can keep the bragging rights on your 220 lb speakers. Spatial gives me all I need and many recordings have never sounded more enjoyable and real in-room experience. Just heard Kind of Blue by Miles after a few years of not listening to it, and it sounded better than ever, Ricky Leee Jones, POP, POP had me stopped in my tracks when the 1st track started, Elvis is Back, he and the band right in the room (RCA Living Stereo Recording), The track Fever was jaw-droppingly good, Reconsider Baby was to die for, and so on. Spatial and my system can sound so real, a word my wife says from time to time, "they sound like they are right in the room playing" and she hates bright sound by the way, to the point of "please take that off its awful". Clayton built a good line of speakers and hopefully, more music lovers become more open-minded and give open baffle speakers a try. These are really good speakers period.
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Excellent write up! I heard the M3's at Claytons shop and thought they sounded fantastic and I cannot stand bright speakers. I ended up ordering a pair of M4's, they should be shipping next week. Can't wait to get them!
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@ MR Big
ive enjoyed your feedback and experience. Makes a lot o sense.
:popcorn:
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Excellent write up! I heard the M3's at Claytons shop and thought they sounded fantastic and I cannot stand bright speakers. I ended up ordering a pair of M4's, they should be shipping next week. Can't wait to get them!
You better document your experience for us here to read hey? :-)
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This is exactly why I also choose to add a few tubes in my chain, to add a touch of warmth. I’ve seen recently people saying they are selling their speakers because there amp didn’t match. IME you first find the speakers you love, then you add and subtract components one at a time until you dial in SYNERGy between room, speakers, system, cables, etc. but of course to each is own, speakers are just harder to buy and sell!
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This is exactly why I also choose to add a few tubes in my chain, to add a touch of warmth. I’ve seen recently people saying they are selling their speakers because there amp didn’t match. IME you first find the speakers you love, then you add and subtract components one at a time until you dial in SYNERGy between room, speakers, system, cables, etc. but of course to each is own, speakers are just harder to buy and sell!
I found the speakers to be bright when I first got them. I attributed that to needing break-in and they have been slowly calming down at about 200 hours. My system is basically all tubes with a Lampizator Baltic 3 DAC and a Linear Tube Audio Integrated amp. Right now I am doing some tube rolling in my Baltic to dial in the sound to meet my own tastes.
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You better document your experience for us here to read hey? :-)
Sure will.
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Thanks for highlighting this important subject. This was exactly my experience with my M3Ss. I will add two points:
1) The OB design is attractive to people with small listening rooms because of the inherent bass cancellation features. But, “brightness” is more likely in a small vs. large room since the high frequencies ricochet around the room. Treatments are your friend.
2) The clean bass of the Spatials allows for louder listening levels in small rooms but that means that high frequency transients (think Dizzy Gillespie trumpet blast) can be REALLY loud. More high energy treble can make the music sound bright. Again, not the speaker’s fault. Until I pulled out my SPL meter I didn’t realize that with the Spatials I was listening, on average, 5db louder than with my other, less sensitive speakers.
Spatials are high performance speakers that will expose limitations of your room. I am less fussed about gear matching issues than some. Instead, your room needs to be up to the task. You may also find that once the honeymoon is over, that dialing back the volume a bit and getting used to it will be almost as rewarding as listening at higher volumes.
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Well said, Tangram. A lot of this has to do with how loudly one listens. Sigfried Linkwitz made a point of saying:
"For accuracy it is necessary to reproduce sound at near realistic SPL so that the ear generates the correct timbre due to its own distortion"
If you look at the equal loudness curves, also known as the Fletcher-Munson curves, it's obvious that frequencies around 3kHz that may sound balanced at 50 dB will sound very bright at say 90 dB. One size doesn't fit all when it comes to treble. A way around this, and it's what I found works for me, is to have some kind of EQ capabilities that can adjust those frequencies around 3-4 kHz for different volume levels. A preamp/processor with presets that can be programmed could be is a convenient solution.
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Another consideration is the listening distance to the speakers. Air is a filter, especially for high frequencies. In my experience sitting back a couple feet farther makes a difference in terms of brightness.
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In smaller rooms I'd treat with more absorption and lean toward tubes in the signal path - the preamp for sure and maybe the DAC too.
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With Roon you can experiment with DSP. Try a high shelf filter at 1500 Hz of -2 or -3 dB with a Q of 1 or 2 and see how you like it.
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My X5's now have enough hours on them that they are well out on the flattened part of their burn in curve. I am now working to get their positioning to best sonic advantage and to adjust my preexisting room treatments to smooth out a bump in their upper end. I am just using old school measurement devices which are conveniently located on either side of my head and were preinstalled. These devices are well broken in and well adapted to the task. They are also uniquely adapted and tuned from endless years of listening and equipment purchases to work with my personal tastes.
I have been playing with my upstream equipment for a couple of weeks trying to use different tubes and cables to tame the sound to meet my own needs. This has helped some. Yesterday I moved two 24" sound panels to cover my TV in a different way. My TV is of necessity between the speakers. I put each panel at the ends of the cabinet, in front of each corner of the TV which is very close to the back of the speakers. I previously had just one panel placed in the center of the TV and a blanket over the TV itself. This had helped some but the new placement was much more effective. I now found music much more engaging and the brightness much diminished. Imaging was also better. I think that this may say that what comes out of the back of OB speakers needs to be considered as much as what comes out of the front.
My point is not to suggest that this particular tweak will work for others but to say that between a long break-in period and tricky room placement issues one cannot just unbox these speakers and expect to be plopped into the happy place. I was hoping that the AMT driver with it's "wave guide" baffle would make room placement less of a factor but, in my situation and for my own preferences, this has not turned out to be true. I think that, depending on the preexisting room environment, many folks can expect to put in significant work to bring out the best in the X series.
After two months I enjoyed them the most last night.
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Woot, awesome to have a happy ending. You are right, OB speakers have less issues with the room than box speakers (especially in the bass), but that does not mean they have NO issues with the room (especially in the highs).
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After watching many of Dennis Foley's (Acoustic Fields) videos on YT, I decided to remove the 6.5' etagere that housed my equipment and tv. The equipment is now close to the floor and the tv is moved back as close to the wall as I can get it, and the soundstage has improved. Putting a heavy wool blanket over the reflective tv surface helps get rid of the tizzieness that it creates. The bottom line is that if you want to improve your soundstaging remove as much stuff from between the speakers (and front wall) as you can, which also allows you to work more easily with wall treatments. Even though it was a PITA to do, my ears are thanking me for doing it. Good luck!
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Agreed, having a rack that is low and wide is much better than a narrow/tall rack. I also don't use a TV anymore, I moved to a projector with a motorized screen that fully retracts in to the ceiling when not in use.
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After watching many of Dennis Foley's (Acoustic Fields) videos on YT, I decided to remove the 6.5' etagere that housed my equipment and tv. The equipment is now close to the floor and the tv is moved back as close to the wall as I can get it, and the soundstage has improved. Putting a heavy wool blanket over the reflective tv surface helps get rid of the tizzieness that it creates. The bottom line is that if you want to improve your soundstaging remove as much stuff from between the speakers (and front wall) as you can, which also allows you to work more easily with wall treatments. Even though it was a PITA to do, my ears are thanking me for doing it. Good luck!
Well done. We don’t all have the luxury of having our “stuff” somewhere other than between the speakers but this advice, while being important for any speakers, MUST be especially important for open baffles. For me, I am fortunate to have all equipment except for my amp in a room adjacent to the front wall, which has allowed me to make maximum use of 6 Vicoustics DC2 diffusers behind the Spatials. I have no TV to worry about.
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So I was using MIT Terminator 2 cables that I had from a prior system and I was looking to upgrade. I wound up starting with one set of Anticables 5.2 placed between my pre-amp and my mono amps.
The difference is night and day in the focus, clarity, detail, and brightness. I am almost a month into breaking them in and yes they improved substantially after the first 50 hours and less after that. At this point I can say for sure cables make a huge difference and I need to move on from the T2s. I can't yet say for certain whether these anticables are the right ones for synergy with my setup because on some tracks, the brightness seems to be pushing into the edginess territory. Maybe more play time will address this, but I only have a 30 day window to evaluate.
In the same light, every single tweak I make to my setup is easily audible through these speakers. They really show you what you put into them.
Glen
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The Spatial Audio speakers like other good speakers I've owned will live and die but what they receive, even in my case, power cords made a huge difference, and cables, toe-in also, sans spikes, and just sitting on the carpet if it has a really good carpet pad, does much like products costing hundreds more for free. Recordings made or break any system with its sound. With the over-processed over-compressed recordings over the past 10-15 years should sound bad like they should, then you put on a recording without such production values and your jaw drops how warm and natural they can sound with deep and detailed bass, not the bloat of compressed recordings.
My son plays some of his music, and I can see why they sound good on earbuds, that is what they are made for, anything more is useless.
My Quad Electrostatic speakers could sound like a transistor radio with some recordings and speaker wire and anyone who knows the sound of Quad speakers would never call them bright. If I was listening to only recently recorded music, I pick a warm speaker like the POLK L600 or an old pair of rebuilt Quad ESL57 that can make most recordings sound good. I have 1,500 recordings and 1,450 sound good to really good, but then I put a PS Audio Ocative recording on and I say wow this is how recordings used to sound and they are scary real if you have not tried them please do. You will then understand how good the Spatial speakers are, from the X series to the Sapphires. Then you will know the speakers are never the issue.
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So I was using MIT Terminator 2 cables that I had from a prior system and I was looking to upgrade. I wound up starting with one set of Anticables 5.2 placed between my pre-amp and my mono amps.
The difference is night and day in the focus, clarity, detail, and brightness. I am almost a month into breaking them in and yes they improved substantially after the first 50 hours and less after that. At this point I can say for sure cables make a huge difference and I need to move on from the T2s. I can't yet say for certain whether these anticables are the right ones for synergy with my setup because on some tracks, the brightness seems to be pushing into the edginess territory. Maybe more play time will address this, but I only have a 30 day window to evaluate.
I
In the same light, every single tweak I make to my setup is easily audible through these speakers. They really show you what you put into them.
Glen
I found the same. I tried about 5 or so options and settled on the Audio Sensibility Signature. The statement is also great! They beat out several other big names in my system.
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i tried very hard to like my m3 sapphires but i just could not live with the bright aggressive treble, unfortunately, despite my dedicated room being very well treated, reflections well controlled - this was one of my more memorable disappointments in this hobby
to be clear, clayton is just a prince, he worked with me for months, even sent me resistors to tamp down the tweeter output
i suspect most users will find happiness using tube amps to drive the spatials... i felt solid state amplification was definitely needed control the sizable dual woofers (to me the bass response is the towering strength of clayton's designs) but then the treble remained unrefined and fatiguing, despite much much effort to ameliorate
anyhow, that is just my experience, only one data point... there are clearly many many other very happy users out there loving their spatials, and power to clayton and to them
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You should try the X3 or X5, the tweeter is not bright on them at all. And they are very sensitive so can easily be driven by a tube amp.
In fact I've been driving my X3's with a 2 watt Type 45 SET amp for the past few weeks. Glorious.
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You should try the X3 or X5, the tweeter is not bright on them at all. And they are very sensitive so can easily be driven by a tube amp.
In fact I've been driving my X3's with a 2 watt Type 45 SET amp for the past few weeks. Glorious.
yes fair point
i debated with clayton at the outset whether i should get the x series vs the m sapphires... he advised the latter... perhaps it was my bad that i didn't sufficiently emphasize my aversion to elevated treble response... one day i may well try a set of x3 or x5's but presently i am fine and very happy with my speakers in the fold...
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I ask Clayton if you could use the silk dome tweeter that he is now using, might be able to switch it out with the perless that was used int the M3's. I've not had a issue with an overly bright sound in my room with 3 different sets of SS gear, McIntosh, Luxman and Mark Levinson.
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I ask Clayton if you could use the silk dome tweeter that he is now using, might be able to switch it out with the perless that was used int the M3's. I've not had a issue with an overly bright sound in my room with 3 different sets of SS gear, McIntosh, Luxman and Mark Levinson.
It's conceivable that the reason you haven't heard an overly bright sound is that these speakers are more revealing than the ones you've owned previously.
A big assumption you're making is that the speakers are the culprit for your system sounding bright. It's not likely. Your speakers are giving you what they're getting. You gotta look upstream. The first place to look is your interconnects. What are you using?
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Somewhat piling on Early B's comments, do you have silver wiring in the mix somewhere? That is the other really comment brightness source people forget about.
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if the comments above were meant for me (not sure if they were), no the rest of system is not bright
not new to this rodeo :beer:
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I'm actually surprised they're not any worst. Having a hard surface, 32mm (1 1/4), playing down low 570 something, sealed. All a recipe for disaster. Struggling with mine as we speak. Some good points were made in the original post. Mac's and Luxman are I'm guessing very forgiving amps.
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:D the tweeters were hot to my ears too. Have in-line attenuaters you plug into the tweet signal wire. Tube pre with SS amp. Just saying. Such a touchy crowd this can be. :D
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:D the tweeters were hot to my ears too. Have in-line attenuaters you plug into the tweet signal wire. Tube pre with SS amp. Just saying. Such a touchy crowd this can be. :D
Have in-line attenuaters you plug into the tweet signal wire.......Hook us up man :)
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yes fair point
i debated with clayton at the outset whether i should get the x series vs the m sapphires... he advised the latter... perhaps it was my bad that i didn't sufficiently emphasize my aversion to elevated treble response... one day i may well try a set of x3 or x5's but presently i am fine and very happy with my speakers in the fold...
JJSS - FWIW, I did share with Clayton my aversion to elevated upper-frequencies which often drove me from rooms at shows (in addition to too LOUD). Sometimes I'd sit with fellow audiophile friends whose systems' sound left me perplexed (how could anybody be satisfied with that presentation?). Clayton promised me the Peerless (M3) was not elevated and with a trial period.... In reading this thread I'm reminded how variable sensitivities can be demonstrating the difficulty Clayton (or any manufacturer) faces when offering advice to prospective buyers. I find the Peerless unit to be, if not peerless, rich and detailed with outstanding dynamic capability. Ironically, perhaps, I find the M3's presentation more "natural" when using the GanFet SS amps than with my 845 tube amps. In fact, it seems I'm no longer invoking the "presence," "bloom," or "vivid" comparators so often heard when comparing tubes to SS. The M3's Peerless tweet has never sounded so natural... Not a hint of sharp, edgy, glaring or even elevated.... Perhaps a combination of amp topology and toe-in might ameliorate the worst of it...
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catluck
just want to distinguish and clarify -- is your commentary re the peerless tweeter referring to the older m3 models or the m3 sapphire? i understand the tweeters are different for the sapphire model
i had actually heard older m3's (forget if they were the turbo or triode model) in a fellow hifi bud's home -- those were very natural sounding, even a little rolled off up top, to my ear... and they driven by a first watt ss amp btw
my experience was with a brand new pair of m3 sapphires, bought new from clayton, broken in over many months, changed to dark, darker, darkest (ss) amps, same with cables, he sent me in line resistors to further attempt to attenuate... and through all that, as much as i tried given my great personal liking of clayton, i just could not make peace and find happiness with the treble presentation
once again, just my own experience, there are scores of happy m3 sapphire owners out there that remain tickled pink by the sound... entirely my loss...
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catluck
just want to distinguish and clarify -- is your commentary re the peerless tweeter referring to the older m3 models or the m3 sapphire? i understand the tweeters are different for the sapphire model
i had actually heard older m3's (forget if they were the turbo or triode model) in a fellow hifi bud's home -- those were very natural sounding, even a little rolled off up top, to my ear... and they driven by a first watt ss amp btw
my experience was with a brand new pair of m3 sapphires, bought new from clayton, broken in over many months, changed to dark, darker, darkest (ss) amps, same with cables, he sent me in line resistors to further attempt to attenuate... and through all that, as much as i tried given my great personal liking of clayton, i just could not make peace and find happiness with the treble presentation
once again, just my own experience, there are scores of happy m3 sapphire owners out there that remain tickled pink by the sound... entirely my loss...
JJSS - I get it and I don't, for a second, doubt your subjective evaluation. I am using the new Sapphire M3's. I totally respect your experience. The fact that you find the Peerless bright or simply not enjoyable is completely understandable. I was simply thinking out loud because, previously, I've tamed seemingly aggressive tweets with a combo of toe-in and amp change. In the end, all I care about is that you find your "desert island" system. I know how much music means to those of us on this thread. We're all just slouching towards Bethlehem.... Wishing you the very best...
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JJSS - I get it and I don't, for a second, doubt your subjective evaluation. I am using the new Sapphire M3's. I totally respect your experience. The fact that you find the Peerless bright or simply not enjoyable is completely understandable. I was simply thinking out loud because, previously, I've tamed seemingly aggressive tweets with a combo of toe-in and amp change. In the end, all I care about is that you find your "desert island" system. I know how much music means to those of us on this thread. We're all just slouching towards Bethlehem.... Wishing you the very best...
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.
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I am listening to Billie Holliday and the sound is in-room, warm and sweet of that ERA and that is how it should be if the speakers were bright it is easy to hear by the way, I am coming from Quad ESL 63's so If these were bright they are long gone. I can get them bright with the wrong cables and power cords can break a system. In my experience, these speakers give you only what you feed them from your system and amp. I use them with the spikes off and now on the front only, the back spike is useless and cannot pentrate my carpet and pad due to how short they are, sound better without them on the back anyway. I also say try them with just the front feet on was spikes, to see how they work on the floor you are using, toe-in makes a bib impact on brightness also and every room is different, but try toeing them in to the tweeter hits your intter should next area, and listen for brightness or if it improved, then slowly take them out 1/4" at a time and listen the speaker with either improve or start getting brighter, once you find the ideal spot to your ear, take them out 1/4" more and see if you lose the sound you liked if so go back to what you had them and for you room they are good to go, also I found you have to get the speaker to work with the size of your room, I had to pull mine in close than one might think would be correct buy my loft is 122" only I had them wider apart, but one day I moved each in 3" and wow they locked into the room and imaging and center fill improved and any brightness was gone, so you really have to play with this speaker or any speaker, my Quads were hard to lock in and one day I toed them out 1/2" and the sound just exploded with dyanamcis, tone and color, and I had them 1-year at that point so it takes time to "learn" what makes them tick. My Quads could sound like a transistor radio with wrong setup or adding spikes under them.
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Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Except maybe with a little toe-in and some room treatment.
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Wow! A bit too much treble and suddenly, apocalypse.
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:lol:
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Wow! A bit too much treble and suddenly, apocalypse.
Treble in mind, brother, treble in mind.
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One thing to keep in mind guys is that having great extended highs, their is no other option :) Having a rolled off top end is called a transistor radio. Once you get a taste, you can never go back. So be careful trying to go hard the other way.
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Wow! A bit too much treble and suddenly, apocalypse.
Dogs and cats, living together...
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As I'm waiting for my new 242 GIK panels to arrive - and the ABB1s to be painted along w/ stands for freestanding - I have a question:
If I can listen to say, Pink Floyd, Thievery Corporation and Dave Brubeck at 90-95 db without any brightness then why would that change for say....Pearl Jam, Vs. (1st pressing which is widely regarded as a well recorded and cut album) or Alice in Chains self-titled/dog (same as Vs. and is fairly rare)? The difference is heavy electric guitar and higher-freq vocals.
I don't have any brightness issues with "cleaner" music but once the heavy electric guitars start going along and esp with high end vocals AND the DBs are >83-85 --- then the brightness starts. Is there anyone here who has Sapphires and can listen to hard rock (with good recordings/pressings - they are out there) at high volume without brightness?
I'll know more next week when I have the panels mounted - although my in-laws will in town so.....may not get to listen much. Know more meaning whether or not it is the room being overloaded or the speakers. It could be something else but I don't think so since this is only with a certain type of music.
Also, for me, my sense is not the high frequencies that are the issue but the midrange.....and possibly (!) the low crossover for the Sapphire tweeter which is then overloaded.....or maybe not.
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As I'm waiting for my new 242 GIK panels to arrive - and the ABB1s to be painted along w/ stands for freestanding - I have a question:
If I can listen to say, Pink Floyd, Thievery Corporation and Dave Brubeck at 90-95 db without any brightness then why would that change for say....Pearl Jam, Vs. (1st pressing which is widely regarded as a well recorded and cut album) or Alice in Chains self-titled/dog (same as Vs. and is fairly rare)? The difference is heavy electric guitar and higher-freq vocals.
I don't have any brightness issues with "cleaner" music but once the heavy electric guitars start going along and esp with high end vocals AND the DBs are >83-85 --- then the brightness starts. Is there anyone here who has Sapphires and can listen to hard rock (with good recordings/pressings - they are out there) at high volume without brightness?
I'll know more next week when I have the panels mounted - although my in-laws will in town so.....may not get to listen much. Know more meaning whether or not it is the room being overloaded or the speakers. It could be something else but I don't think so since this is only with a certain type of music.
Also, for me, my sense is not the high frequencies that are the issue but the midrange.....and possibly (!) the low crossover for the Sapphire tweeter which is then overloaded.....or maybe not.
It always gets back to the recordings, is it done naturally? warm, aggressive in your face, or bright? You also have to ask who the recording was made for and how might 99% of those who buy it play it by what system. It can drive me nuts that I can listen to a whole batch of music and then I run into a batch that sounds horrible, now a colored or warmer speaker can make the horrible sound more listenable (but still sucks), whereas a speaker like the Quads (not the 57's) will make the sound of that recording sound as it is, Spatial are no different, they present you what it receives, be great to have a speaker do everything from superb recordings to head banging, rap, hip-hop, etc. But the reality is a lot of popular music was never made sonic-wise to be played in good to high-end audio systems. I remember back in the 70s and 80's when Vinyl rock records sounded as thick as mud due to the compression and recording style of Rock, while others sounded like chalk on a blackboard. There were still good ones of course, but a lot was sonic-wise crap, you listened to them because you liked the music, not for sound quality and that took some getting used to, which was why many purchase EQ boxes to adjust the highs or lows. With music being so processed today is hard to bear on a good system, but we audiophiles are not a blip on their radar, and production values are based on who the majority of buyers are and how they listen to their music.
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It always gets back to the recordings, is it done naturally? warm, aggressive in your face, or bright? You also have to ask who the recording was made for and how might 99% of those who buy it play it by what system. It can drive me nuts that I can listen to a whole batch of music and then I run into a batch that sounds horrible, now a colored or warmer speaker can make the horrible sound more listenable (but still sucks), whereas a speaker like the Quads (not the 57's) will make the sound of that recording sound as it is, Spatial are no different, they present you what it receives, be great to have a speaker do everything from superb recordings to head banging, rap, hip-hop, etc. But the reality is a lot of popular music was never made sonic-wise to be played in good to high-end audio systems. I remember back in the 70s and 80's when Vinyl rock records sounded like think mud due to the compression and recording style of Rock, while others sounded like chalk on a blackboard. There were still good ones of course, but a lot was sonic-wise crap, you listened to them because you liked the music, not for sound quality and that took some getting used to, which was why many purchase EQ boxes to adjust the highs or lows. With music being so processed today is hard to bear on a good system, but we audiophiles are not a blip on their radar, and production values are based on who the majority of buyers are and how they listen to their music.
I completely get that which is why I've spent a lot of time and a small fortune (treasure) hunting for the best pressings. I did listen to people on Hoffman but also was able to check out thier systems - some better than others but there are a lot of exp people with excellent systems on Hoffman. While I took some of the comments in Discogs into considertion I gave them little weight (some more than others and a few will list their system in their comment).
Two comments on this:
1. My "treasures" (and have put more than a few in the "sell" pile! - probably close to 40+ in the past 12 mos) sound great at lower volume. If the pressing is the issue, it wouldn't sound good at low volume - so when I turn the volume up they only sound bright above 82-85 db. To me this means that it has nothing to do with the pressing, correct?
2. A few months ago I bought some Focal Stellia headphones since my listening room is now the living room and the wife can't stand the volume knob on .5. When I listen in the headphones I rarely turn up the volume like I do with the M3s - mostly to protect my hearing - I realize it takes a hit w/ the M3s at volume but I listen to the Focals almost every night for an hour so try to keep the levels low-ish. They are amazing headphones btw. Anyway, just now I put on Pearl Jam's Vs. and played "GO" which is one of the many main offenders for brightness and played is LOUD in the Stellias and ---- no brightness. Not a hint of it. Was clear and loud - no brightness, just clean and loud with good seperation. Btw, that is another thing that goes hand-in-hand with the brightness when the volume goes up - lack of seperation and instruments start blending together. I think it is either the room or the tweeters have a crossover that is too low and can't handle that much (as that reviewer I spoke to said "the tweeters are asked to do too much) - possibly both.
Also just to reinforce that I very much love the M3s for non-hard rock music. I was listening to this last week at high volume and was blown away at how good it sounded. Btw, I found out about this record in another thread here so thanks to whoever posted that: https://www.discogs.com/release/13439481-Dominique-Fils-Aim%C3%A9-Stay-Tuned
Some recordings are better than others but I don't listen to bad recordings - I realize this is subjective and although my system isn't super high-end it is pretty revealing. Esp w/ my carts - either the VDH Crimson which I'm running now or the Hana Red.
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forky How big is your room? Man I'm 8ft away and never exceed 75db. If your room is plenty big enough, I wonder if maybe your amp is clipping at those volumes?
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Hi Dave,
My room is 19.78 long x 17.56 wide x 10.75 tall according to my digital tape measure. I don't think the amp is clipping becuase I can listen to other music even louder w/o an issue and the volume is only at around 3.75-4.25-ish at 85 db (for most recordings) - although I realize volume knobs are relative ("11 exactly, one louder. /// why don't you just make ten louder and make ten the top number? /// These go to 11" :green:). 90 db is around 5 and 95 is around 6 although I've only gone that high a very few times. I only turned my volume knob above 6 once (wasn't hard rock and sounded fine although obviously very LOUD) and that's when I blew my tweeters :( last September. I may be wrong but I don't think even that one time over 6 that my amp was clipping - the tweeters couldn't handle it but again it was LOUD so ...maybe. That was a very failed experiment!
I haven't done the math though as far as how many watts the M3 (92db /1w ?) needs to make 90 db but wouldn't that be less than 1 watt? I have a Primaluna Evo 300 w/ (4) KT-150s.
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Btw, I'm older now so I usually can't listen to music at 85-90 db much longer than 45 minutes to maybe an hour. My wife usually is only gone about that long anyway. :D Also when it gets too loud it is more about live music and less about the quality of the playback and these days I prefer the latter. However, I find that 85-90 I can still get accurate playback (with certain music) , not completely destroy my hearing and enjoy and feel the music.
I do think that 95+ continuous is too LOUD (except for peaks) and never have seen 100 (but didn't measure when I went to 6.5 on the volume) and use my DB meter almost every time I listen (not phone meter).
But....this is why I was mentioning the DB levels and hard rock. Although there ARE a few of you here who have Sapphire M3s and listen to music around 85-90, I don't get the feeling that many listen to hard rock + loud (but a few and I have read your posts!). Which I'm guessing (!) is why many don't run into this brigthness and loss of seperation.
As mentiond a few times I don't have this issue at lower volumes with hard rock or higher volumes with other genres - and all with very good or great recordings. :green: . However, I DO need room treatment. The GIK panels should be shipping tomorrow and the ABB1s were painted today. I still need to figure out stands for those since they aren't going on the walls.
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Oh I do remember you had that great space. You know, I wanted to say back a week or so ago, you should consider turning your system around and fire down the short wall? I think you could get a more intimate (for a lack of a better word) experience and could play it at lower volume (mostly because of the shorter space) As far as clipping, you're right about how little actual watts one would need to get that db but I'm sure theirs more than that to it? current. Not sure how tube amps work...transformers. You made a damn good point about the problem? being the crossover point of the M100. btw does anyone know if Spatial give measurement graphs with there speakers.
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Thanks. When we were shopping for homes I of course was immediately scoping for where my system was going to go. The plan was a MIL detached sweet or similar which of course didn't work out. All the homes we looked at (FL) were single story which didn’t and doesn't help. Anyway, I had originally planned to put my system on the short wall but then my GIK rep. recommended that the stereo go on the glass wall (with curtains) so the speakers each had the same type-wall for 1st and 2nd reflections - so I changed it.
That said, I took the advice from some here in the other recent thread (I'll bump after my GIKs are in) and made an equilateral triangle and used the Cardas site. It took me a while but I got the speakers at 1/3 and my seat at 1/3, the speakers each equidistant from the side walls and a 7.5' triangle. It was a larger triangle last week but I lost the center. I haven't listened to this new setup yet but will do so tomorrow when my wife goes to an appt. I think I will likely move the chair back some to 9' -ish if it still sounds good even though it will then be an isosceles.
I think I’m a bit past green in this hobby but maybe not much past and still don’t know squat about electronics. According to this: https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/integrated-amplifiers/products/primaluna-evo-300-tube-integrated-amp,
“All PrimaLuna products use massive, potted toroidal transformers. PrimaLuna transformers are enclosed in a metal housing and then potted in a non-microphonic resin to further reduce noise and to protect the windings from moisture and deterioration forever.”
And then there is another paragraph about them below that. It shows as 42 watts/ch but that is with EL 34s. I don’t know how much the power is raised by KT-150s but probably – well, I have no idea but would guess it would be..... more.
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Are you using stock el cheapo 12 au7 tubes in your amp? If so that will play a big role and worth researching best options to upgrade. Any good tube supplier should know that amp well and which tubes will make it sing. If not, disregard 🤣! I’m asking this about tubes, but basically you’re looking for the weak link in your chain. Spatials will reveal all changes and any weak link will be heard ! It could be the room, tubes, cables, etc. for me this is the fun part of building a system, trouble shooting it and tweaking it until you dial in your desired sound. Some add resistors it seems and others like myself tweak tubes and cables and dacs and streamers etc.
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Hello,
I think my system is fairly even componant-wise w/o one thing outshining another too much. I did change out the front tubes when I went to the KT150s. I tried the Mazda Cliftes (NOS) and they were too bright and then some NOS Mullards and the same and then.........Radiotecnique (sp)! Love 'em! Kept all the sparkle of the Mazdas and took out the rough edges of the others. I did leave the Mazdas in on the sides but I've read they don't do much. I did buy some spare Radios last year so may try those on the sides and see what happens. They are in a box somewhere around here.
Cables are Lessloss except the power cable to the turntable. I honestly couldn't tell the differnce between any of the power cables I tried (Lessloss, DH labs and stock). I did however hear a change for the better with the Lessloss innerconnects (TT to phonostage and phonostage to int amp). I have to say it was pretty amazing - although not huge, it lowered the "noise" some w/o losing anything else.
Btw I have a dedicated line to my system. I may try a Puritan 156 when business picks back up. The wife and I just agreed to hosehold spending freeze until biz picks back up (my vinyl habbit is the hardest thing to break right now!) so any new hifi stuff will have to wait. That said, I consider myself more about the music than the system - the system is only there for me to enjoy my music. I know this is obvious but I think some forget that when going down rabbit holes. Once I do get this brightness figured out (and speaker placement) then I'm done. My last system lasted me about 30 years...it still sounds good but I wanted to take it up a notch (or 3 or 4). I REALLY hope the panels take care of this issue. If not I'll have to wait until our $ freeze is over and either sell and replace the M3s or ....since much of my music sounds fantastic - I may just buy a second pair of speakers for hard rock. Maybe a used Klipsch or Ohm.
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I completely get that which is why I've spent a lot of time and a small fortune (treasure) hunting for the best pressings. I did listen to people on Hoffman but also was able to check out thier systems - some better than others but there are a lot of exp people with excellent systems on Hoffman. While I took some of the comments in Discogs into considertion I gave them little weight (some more than others and a few will list their system in their comment).
Two comments on this:
1. My "treasures" (and have put more than a few in the "sell" pile! - probably close to 40+ in the past 12 mos) sound great at lower volume. If the pressing is the issue, it wouldn't sound good at low volume - so when I turn the volume up they only sound bright above 82-85 db. To me this means that it has nothing to do with the pressing, correct?
2. A few months ago I bought some Focal Stellia headphones since my listening room is now the living room and the wife can't stand the volume knob on .5. When I listen in the headphones I rarely turn up the volume like I do with the M3s - mostly to protect my hearing - I realize it takes a hit w/ the M3s at volume but I listen to the Focals almost every night for an hour so try to keep the levels low-ish. They are amazing headphones btw. Anyway, just now I put on Pearl Jam's Vs. and played "GO" which is one of the many main offenders for brightness and played is LOUD in the Stellias and ---- no brightness. Not a hint of it. Was clear and loud - no brightness, just clean and loud with good seperation. Btw, that is another thing that goes hand-in-hand with the brightness when the volume goes up - lack of seperation and instruments start blending together. I think it is either the room or the tweeters have a crossover that is too low and can't handle that much (as that reviewer I spoke to said "the tweeters are asked to do too much) - possibly both.
Also just to reinforce that I very much love the M3s for non-hard rock music. I was listening to this last week at high volume and was blown away at how good it sounded. Btw, I found out about this record in another thread here so thanks to whoever posted that: https://www.discogs.com/release/13439481-Dominique-Fils-Aim%C3%A9-Stay-Tuned
Some recordings are better than others but I don't listen to bad recordings - I realize this is subjective and although my system isn't super high-end it is pretty revealing. Esp w/ my carts - either the VDH Crimson which I'm running now or the Hana Red.
The great thing about headphones listening takes out the room acoustics which is a big part of what you hear in music reproduction. I opened my 2 windows on the front wall to allow fresh air in yesterday and I played so music later in the day and I said wow that really sounds good, I mean good, in the evening I closed the windows and the sound lost the relaxed openesss I heard, so if I could I open those windows everytime I played my system, there was none of the negative effects with the windows open, but in the winter and the heat he summer that be a challenge..smile! So you have to accept the sound as it is, while not perfect and you know it, it is still enjoyable.
My headphones played from my Marantz SA-10 can take you right into the recording studio at times, with no room effects or outside noise, just silence, and music wrapped around you. It is the same no matter the speakers I use from Legacy, Dynaudio, Quads, or Spatial all are impacted by our rooms where headphones are not, so you cannot compare headphone listening to room listening. There is just so much difference in the way the music gets to our ears. Which is why many have headphone systems and not audio systems. Room accoutics is the devil in reproduction no matter the gear or the money spent in my experience.
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The great thing about headphones listening takes out the room acoustics which is a big part of what you hear in music reproduction. I opened my 2 windows on the front wall to allow fresh air in yesterday and I played so music later in the day and I said wow that really sounds good, I mean good, in the evening I closed the windows and the sound lost the relaxed openesss I heard, so if I could I open those windows everytime I played my system, there was none of the negative effects with the windows open, but in the winter and the heat he summer that be a challenge..smile! So you have to accept the sound as it is, while not perfect and you know it, it is still enjoyable.
My headphones played from my Marantz SA-10 can take you right into the recording studio at times, with no room effects or outside noise, just silence, and music wrapped around you. It is the same no matter the speakers I use from Legacy, Dynaudio, Quads, or Spatial all are impacted by our rooms where headphones are not, so you cannot compare headphone listening to room listening. There is just so much difference in the way the music gets to our ears. Which is why many have headphone systems and not audio systems. Room accoutics is the devil in reproduction no matter the gear or the money spent in my experience.
Cool, yes I have really enjoyed my headphones over the past few months - even though they are closed back (so others won't here).
However, I was not comparing sound stage, etc. but just making the point that I'm not getting the brightness at loud volume in my headphones, that to me means it isn't the recording and it is likley either the speakers or the lack of treatment or both. Hoping it is the treatment.
Good news is that (redone) GIK panels will be here tomorrow. The bad news is that I probably will still be in headphones for another 10 days or so with family coming so I may not be able to "test" them. I did listen w/ the Abb1s (roughly) in place today along w/ the new spearker positioning and it was very, very good.
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Forky - I see that you're running a Prima Luna Evo 300. Beautiful stuff. I just wonder if, before undertaking all the efforts at sound treatment, etc., an amp change might be "a" if not "the" solution? You know where I'm going.... I find the GanFets sweeter, purer, and truer, tonally and timbrally, than tubes. When you can try a GanFet product at NO COST (other than shipping) for 15 days, what have you got to lose other than, potentially, bias, predisposition, and tube related anomalies?
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I must second catluck's question!
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yes that is a good thought! I went down this path about a year ago via a zillion forum searches in audiogon and elsewhere and it turns out - the same as most everything else - a few thought PL were bright and some didn't. How they were able to pinpoint that to thier amp though I don't know. I even borrowed my bro's Adcom 545 but never got around to it and had to give it back. :duh:
I have an old Rotel amp and preamp I can hook up. I replaced them w/ the PL in July 21 becuase there was a lot of crackling (I have read this is a pretty easy fix usually) but am willing to give it a try. Not that a 1991 Rotel amp and preamp is the final word on this but I did buy it from a very high-end store in 1991 and this Rotel setup was the only mid-line he would carry at that time.
If my wife sees another box delivered right now (there have been a lot of vinyl delieveries these past 18 mos) she will kill me.
That said, would it be the amp if I don't have these 2 issues (bright and loss of sep) with my jazz, electronic and regular rock records even when the music is LOUD? I don't know :dunno: but seems like if it was the amp it would show up there...? When I was setting up my speakers again yesterday I played Propellerheads LOUD and it was crystal clear and lovely. :green:
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forky
i do agree with others that the primaluna's can significantly benefit from changing out the stock chinese 12au7 tubes the units are equipped with from the factory, particularly in the center input stage positions - the pre's/amp's become noticeably less stident and more dimensional in its sound (mine was a hp dialogue prem power amp) with those tubes changed out to better old stock ones
fyi also - old stock american 12au7's are not crazy expensive - just get a quiet set from any of the well known sources, they will last a long time too
if you would like, you can pm me, i have many old stock rca ge sylvania 12au7's i can share if you don't trust ebay or other typical sources
good luck
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Thanks JSS - I mentioned this above but I realize I can be long winded and even I can tune out reading my old posts. :D
Anyway, I have Radiotechniques in the front two AU7s and they made a BIG impact on lowering the brightness of the Mazda Cliftes (which I still keep in the outside 4/ 2 on each side) and NOS Mullards but still kept the good stuff w/o blanketing the highs. I've been afraid that if I tried something even more tame being concernred that it would hurt the 75-80% of my collection that isn't hard rock. I like the Radios so much I bought 2 extra sets last year before the tube craziness in Jan/Feb.
The 4 power tubes are KT-150s. I haven't heard of those being bright but anythng is possible (?). They did add a lot of ummmph! over the EL 34s for sure.
But you just reminded me (!) I do have another set of tubes I purchased from Brent Jesse - GE Blacks - I'll dig those out and try them and if they don't work I'll PM you to follow up if they don't work - and if my new panels don't help. 3 of 6 of the 242s just showed up.
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hey forky sorry i missed your post where you did indeed talk about tube replacements for the primaluna
my bad! :duh: