AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: corndog71 on 6 May 2021, 06:12 pm
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Danny,
Have you ever thought about designing a speaker that’s not optimized for imaging and sound staging but still sounds musical and fun? Ideally a 2-way or 3-way with bass down to 40Hz but also easy and relatively cheap to build.
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By "fun," do you mean a speaker you can rock out on? If so, that implies to me a box speaker with a large mid-bass driver. And to keep it in the family, it could be designed to sit on top of dual servo subs. It would be fun to glue up a flat pack, too.
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Yes, a “rock out speaker”. Not necessarily made to be mated with $2500 stereo subs but you could I suppose.
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Danny always referred to the Super-V as a fun speaker.
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Yes, a “rock out speaker”. Not necessarily made to be mated with $2500 stereo subs but you could I suppose.
Yeah -- just tryin' to give Danny an incentive to do it that fits with his current product line.
I think it's a great idea. No need for a ruler flat frequency response or premium crossover parts. However, size matters. If you really want to rock out, 6.5" midrange drivers aren't gonna do it. You need big, dance hall sound that only 12" or 15" mid-drivers can provide (and huge subs to back them up, when possible).
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Something like the vintage Klipsch speakers (Heresy, Forte) but with better parts and half the cost.
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Something like the vintage Klipsch speakers (Heresy, Forte) but with better parts and half the cost.
Now we're talk'n. Sign me up, I'd be in on something like this! :P (In addition to the NX-Otica/OB Subs rig I'm working towards)
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A party speaker. Something you can setup at a party, reunion.. or even the garage!? Something I would say ideally all in one.. no sub needed would be a cool ass factor. Simple setup full range party speaker! This sounds like a cool build.
More so easy build on the wood, easy cabinets.. easy crossovers. I again like this.
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How about an ultra refined party speaker? I'd be willing to pay good money for one of those. How about something that uses these drivers:
Tweeter:
https://usspeaker.com/beyma%20tpl150h-1.htm
(https://usspeaker.com/images/beyma-TPL150H-size165.gif)
Midrange:
https://aespeakers.com/shop/td/td15m/
(https://aespeakers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/TD15M-front-1.png)
And a stereo pair of servo subs:
https://www.gr-research.com/store/p20/Servo_Sub_Kit_2.html
(http://www.rythmikaudio.com/images/product/GR_ci.jpg)
This would be a bruiser of a speaker from a power and fun factor, while still being very detailed and highly refined. You could eat your cake and have it too.
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How about an ultra refined party speaker? I'd be willing to pay good money for one of those. How about something that uses these drivers:
Tweeter: https://usspeaker.com/beyma%20tpl150h-1.htm
Midrange:https://aespeakers.com/shop/td/td15m/
A few months ago, this was the dream speaker I wanted to build.
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This sounds like the prefect garage speaker. It should fill a large room with close to full-range sound, be musically satisfying, can go up against a wall or in a corner, and be relatively cheap. Good efficiency so I can play around with vintage tube amps would be a plus. I would buy a pair.
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This sounds like the prefect garage speaker. It should fill a large room with close to full-range sound, be musically satisfying, can go up against a wall or in a corner, and be relatively cheap. Good efficiency so I can play around with vintage tube amps would be a plus. I would buy a pair.
Exactly.
How about an ultra refined party speaker?
Kinda drifting away from my point.
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I am actually working on some new products using Radian drivers that will be sold through Radian and GR Research that are right along those lines.
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Wow, interesting topic. I have thought about starting this topic many times over the last several months.
Straight to the point, I agree exactly with Tyson. Why not use Danny’s talents to the max. My current speakers are a diy pair using the TD15M Tyson has suggested. I use it with a Radian compression driver and 18Sound horn but would very much like to try the TPL-150H suggested. With Danny’s crossover these could be awesome speakers. It is my opinion many would prefer these to anything Danny is currently selling except maybe the NX-Otica or Extremes. The NX-Studio is great near field, desktop, like they were designed for. But in a big room, no match for the TD15M and that tweeter. Also, high efficiency and very low inductance woofer. Perfect for all the low wattage and tube guys. The TD15M excels in the upper bass and midrange. Nice paper cone. Does not store too much energy and has a very natural sound. So, use your subs with these. I do. A pair of 2x12 open baffle servo.
Remember how much Tyson enjoyed the Klipsch after Danny’s mods?
Remember how much M. Lundy enjoyed the Pi 4 speakers he recently built for a client?
The speaker Tyson has suggested could be a better version of both. Now that is what I call fun!
Just saw Danny’s post as I was posting. Looking forward to these Radian designs.
Thanks.
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Exactly.
Kinda drifting away from my point.
You're right - sorry!
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Why not build a pair of DML foam panel speaker you can hang a few inches from the walls? :P
They're also pretty cheap to make with, with a couple sheets of 24x24" foamular board that are cut and sanded (and painted unless you like pink) and a datyon exciter attached to the back in the 2/5-3/5 position. Then just some decent subs to take over the low end below 200Hz.
No need for a box, baffle, or even crossovers! Maybe just a miniDSP to fix any major peakes/dips.
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I predict that if Danny offers this fun speaker as a DIY kit at a decent price (not sure what that would be), it will outsell almost everything else on his website. Even the HT enthusiasts and a few commercial users would grab a set.
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I predict that if Danny offers this fun speaker as a DIY kit at a decent price (not sure what that would be), it will outsell almost everything else on his website. Even the HT enthusiasts and a few commercial users would grab a set.
And I'd bet it would be wholly additive to sales and not pirate sales away from existing offerings. Would attract a new, much larger, audience. Those of us who need a highly resolving system still need a highly resolving system. But many of us would also like to have a really good party speaker that rocks and makes those bad recordings from the 60's, 70's, 80's etc. fun again. I bought some vintage JBL 4310's in search of that but Danny's wizardry would far surpass this vintage gear. Plus, just think of it, we could have TWO dedicated listening rooms instead of one!
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Those of us who need a highly resolving system still need a highly resolving system. But many of us would also like to have a really good party speaker that rocks and makes those bad recordings from the 60's, 70's, 80's etc. fun again. I bought some vintage JBL 4310's in search of that but Danny's wizardry would far surpass this vintage gear. Plus, just think of it, we could have TWO dedicated listening rooms instead of one!
I'm convinced that a single pair of speakers can be both fun and highly resolving. It would probably be an expensive DIY project, though.
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I’d be interested in a party speaker! Radian compression driver(s) plus high efficiency, large woofer for SET amp please! Still looking at Wayne’s 4pi if nothing turns up here.
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Still looking at Wayne’s 4pi if nothing turns up here.
These look interesting, too: https://www.jtrspeakers.com/jtr-noesis-212htr
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These look interesting, too: https://www.jtrspeakers.com/jtr-noesis-212htr
I heard those a few years ago at Axpona. Wasn’t impressed.
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What about one of these?
https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-theater-speaker-kits/home-theater-series/home-theater.html
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I am actually working on some new products using Radian drivers that will be sold through Radian and GR Research that are right along those lines.
C'mon Danny you can't leave it at that enticing little piece of information. That's audio teasing. :) :lol:
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These look interesting, too: https://www.jtrspeakers.com/jtr-noesis-212htr
Thanks. I saw those on the home theater sites. I don’t like the difference in distance of the compression driver and the woofer. They also seem a bit overpriced with those drivers and that cabinet. No clue if it sounds nice for 2 channel audio.
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I'd be extremely interested in a speaker that is less on direction and more on 'fun'. I think the problem i run into often is that so many speakers are designed to image and I get why and all, but the majority of my listening is while I'm just home, walking around, working at our counter (or on the couch) etc. The only space I have that is really in front of my speakers is the dining room table and I am not often (ever) critically listening there. So I'm in on clear sound. I'm in on loud. I'm in on quality drivers. But i don't need pinpoint imaging. So this sounds great. Image attached to give an idea of my space
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224446)
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Hopefully, these are on Danny's radar. https://radianaudio.com/collections/coaxials-neo/products/5312neo-12-neo-coaxial-speaker?variant=20538615234622 (https://radianaudio.com/collections/coaxials-neo/products/5312neo-12-neo-coaxial-speaker?variant=20538615234622)
An upgraded Super V is about the only thing that might get me to budge from the Super 7.
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I've been racking my brain trying to figure out what woofer or woofers to stick under them, but I have not found a good answer yet.
The drawbacks to high sensitivity woofers are limited bass extension, limited X-Max, and the box size may get out of hand for a pair of large woofers. They need to be an easy 8 ohm load and match the 98db or so sensitivity of the upper driver.
But then if someone has a bass heaviness in their room there is not much they can do about it.
I am really leaning towards adding a pair of servo subs under them all in sealed boxes. Now sensitivity is not a problem, matching output levels is not a problem, and they will play flat to 20Hz.
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Why not the X-Omni? :P
Otherwise, it shouldn't be to difficult to design a fun, 3 way box speaker that looks kinda retro, with wide baffles & all that, but still sounds good, it just wont excell at imaging or soundstage.
The real trick tho will be keeping costs down, cuz i mean you could basically build a pair that is basically an oversized & sealed XLS with a custom crossover and a sealed servo sub all in one box, but thats still not exactly "cheap.." :lol:
Tho I'm sure there's some decent & affordable 10" or 12" woofers that can take over the 200Hz to 30-40Hz range.
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I've been racking my brain trying to figure out what woofer or woofers to stick under them, but I have not found a good answer yet.
The drawbacks to high sensitivity woofers are limited bass extension, limited X-Max, and the box size may get out of hand for a pair of large woofers. They need to be an easy 8 ohm load and match the 98db or so sensitivity of the upper driver.
But then if someone has a bass heaviness in their room there is not much they can do about it.
I am really leaning towards adding a pair of servo subs under them all in sealed boxes. Now sensitivity is not a problem, matching output levels is not a problem, and they will play flat to 20Hz.
I don't know about the others, but my expectation was that you would design a "fun speaker" that mated with a pair of servo subs, both as a large monitor and a floor stander just as you've done with your OB options. That way, you can use high sensitivity woofers with limited low extension. For the monitor option, those who already own servo subs can buy or build the speakers. Plus, it offers an upgrade path to those who don't have servo subs -- they can add them later when their budget permits and choose sealed or OB.
You can also add a reference model with beryllium tweeters and upgraded crossovers.
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I'm not here to advertise other speakers, but reading this I can't help but think of the Tekton Lore's I had a few years back... Wow, HUGE sound coming out of those! Could take a ton of power and just ate it all up. Definitely not your typical "hifi" speaker that had good imaging, depth, soundstage, or that velvety sound you can get out of a more refined speaker. But man, they created this massive wall of sound! Super fun and dynamic speaker to listen to. I certainly do miss them here and there... Definitely miss them for HT!! I'm sure if Danny took a similar design philosophy he'd sell TONS of them!... I'd probably buy a pair myself for a second system/HT only system years down the line :thumb:
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My dad's speaker is a 3-way design somewhat similar to those from the 70s. They aren't great, esp with how far apart the tweeter and mids are, they have serious cancellation issues once your head gets below the midwoofer. And the box comes completely unbraced and its really noticable esp at higher volumes.. (even after bracing the cabinet, its still really chesty when turned up)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224460&size=large)
But swap out the drivers, for Danny's tweeter, the 4" midwoofer for a M165 in a sealed compartment. Then in the bottom, use a 8"-10" woofer for everything below 200Hz.
I need to redo my measurements, but here's how it measures stock, before I braced it. (And include vertical off-axis measurements, as well)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224462&size=large)
When I get home, I'll work on a couple quick 3D design ideas I have around this idea, and throw it in my speaker design thread.
Probably one like this Technics mess and one that's a little smaller with the mid & Tweeter assembly turned 90° that can be made left & right handed.
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Hobbs has the idea. Something like that but Danny approved. Get those drivers closer together. Maybe a 2nd bass driver in the back.
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@ Hobbsmeerkat
It's funny you mention Technic speakers, my dad also has an old pair of those. From a quick google search it's the SB-7000. When I was explaining the NX-Oticas to him and that the tweeter is aligned with the voice coil of the woofers, he brought up the Technic's and how that they did that (or attempted something of the sort) for those speakers as well. He still loves those things! Man, they have to be tired by now though... I thought it was cool that they actually showed the frequency response literally on top of the speaker itself. Probably not something too many manufacturers do :lol: Can't remember if it looked like a good response or not though.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224464)
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Oh yeah, I've seen a few of those time-aligned designs in catalogues when trying to find info for my dad's model. (which there's very little cuz it seems to be a budget model only produced for Circuit City in the early-mid 90s).
Its definitely an interesting concept tho I'm sure the reflections off the top baffle are a problem, esp for the mids
The crossover for this speaker is basically woofer playing full range, a varister that feeds into a cap for the mid, then a cap & resistor for the tweeter..
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204903)
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So badly want a single servo sub for my place. Finding one right now, that’s a trick. (Hint hint, anyone? Lol)
Party speakers with 2 servo subs? Holy shit, that’s not a party speaker, that’s kicked up to half concert party speaker.
I was think like Hobbs said above, a 3 way, again... it’s not going to be the high end of the audio level.. but a fun speaker.. that’s not too cost prohibitive. I think of two of the 12 from the list on GR and think that’s 1000 there.
Again, Hobbs.. I feel what your putting down, not to say I would not like two bad ass speaker with built in servo subs.. yes!
I bet it’s hard for Danny to think on that level with what he’s used to hearing. It’s is almost saying to a Vette owner.. Hey, try this Camaro, twice the weight and less power. Maybe not the looks.. or to a high end food guy, hey Gordon Ramsay, here Mc Donald’s make it a feast. Lolol.
I’ll stop now!
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LOL
Nah man, it's more like being used to driving a modern Corvette, then going back & driving a Vette from the mid 60s. 8)
It's cool and familiar, but it definitely lacks the features that the modern models have.
My idea is more of a "resto-mod". It'll never be just like a modern speaker, but it helps bring old things up to speed, with those classic looks, but many of the benefits of better & more modern components under the hood.
I could see the 8" servo subs being a solid option as well tbh, and being sealed, they'll have plenty of oomf for most rooms, with 12" subs being an option for those with larger rooms.. or possibly even a pair of 8" or 12" subs. But that's kinda beyond the scope of what I'm thinking.. :p
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Saw this thread this morning and thought I'd dig up a little ancient history. I had these built...wow...a decade ago!
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=93720.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=93720.0)
For reference, I've also spent an evening with arguably the best LS9s ever built with about a hundred grand worth of tubes feeding them. There are things that each design does (did?) better than the other, but I wouldn't hesitate to say these traded punches with the LS9s.
If you're into that sort of thing, these literally cracked the plaster of my walls.
:thumb:
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Saw this thread this morning and thought I'd dig up a little ancient history. I had these built...wow...a decade ago!
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=93720.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=93720.0)
For reference, I've also spent an evening with arguably the best LS9s ever built with about a hundred grand worth of tubes feeding them. There are things that each design does (did?) better than the other, but I wouldn't hesitate to say these traded punches with the LS9s.
If you're into that sort of thing, these literally cracked the plaster of my walls.
:thumb:
That's a rad design right there! i'm sure it sounds every bit as incredible as it looks!
here's a quick couple designs i put together over the last couple days:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224526&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224527&size=large)
Uses the basic XLS drivers in a sealed upper box with either a 12" or 8" sealed servo sub below it.
12" version is ~25" tall 8" is about 21". The airspace is a little tight, tbh.. the 12" is ~1.2 cubic ft. the 8" is ~1.0Cu-Ft.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224528&size=large)
Space for the amp is pretty tight in the 8" version, so its rotated to fit cleanly.
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Bi polar passive bass... much easier to get the numbers you want. Very fun. Is the idea LGK mid with T26SG or GR-T3?
Three options that can get you a solid 95db, maybe a bit more with room gain.
ALPHA-8A
PRO 8FE200
FAITAL PRO 8FE300
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Saw this thread this morning and thought I'd dig up a little ancient history. I had these built...wow...a decade ago!
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=93720.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=93720.0)
Yep. And since Danny mentioned Radian, we could be talking about a similar design using a coaxial driver with a single sealed servo sub.
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Love the ideas!
Gosh, I do enjoy these forums! Also enjoy how everyone works together. Everyone has something good, and positive to add!
I hope to see something come about! Be cool to see what derives from everyone’s added ideas.
Wait, is that 3 -8” servo sub woofers?? Or just regular subs? Curious.
Nope, 2/12’s one mid. Network on top.. did this have ... I’ll stop asking and continue to read. Cool story bro
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12" coaxial and dual 12" subs
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As you were writing, I was correcting. Lolol. Morning Hobbs
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12" coaxial and dual 12" subs
For a single sub -- $3,000 for a full kit including flat pack
Dual subs -- add an extra $500.
Optional speaker stand flat packs and caulk to fix the wall cracks.
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I think $3k-4k is starting to get away from what Corndog had in mind, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a line of speakers with different options starting at say $1k?
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Yeah that's more the idea I was going for when I posted some quick models on the previous page.
The inclusion of a servo sub+amp is optional tho, esp if there are some good passive 8 to 12" woofers that work well, tho they will likely reqire a vent/port to reach below 50-60Hz they would reach in a sealed cabinet, but could possibly get some that hit in the 30-40 range.
The servo option with XLS drivers would bring price to $1500 before factoring in a cabinet.
A fully passive version should bring costs down below $1000, possibly even down to $600-700 range?
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I think $3k-4k is starting to get away from what Corndog had in mind, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a line of speakers with different options starting at say $1k?
I agree. The $3-4k range is what the Oticas/Xtremes are already at... and even though I've never heard them personally, I think they'd have the ability to rock the house... but then again, this price is without subs supplementing them.
I could see a $1k starting range without a flat-pack would be fairly reasonable. Something like $1500 with the flat pack. Since these would be more box-ish speakers, I think a simple drawing alike the subs for a full DIY enclosure would be quite nice.
Everyone also keeps mentioning putting subs in the enclosure itself too... This is what's really raising the price IMO. I think the old-school mentality of the "full-ish" range drivers is what this post was originally meant for. A "big box" speaker with a top notch crossover with a FR of something like 30/40hz-20k... obviously could supplement with an external sub as well.
Just my .02 for the little it's worth :lol:
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Yeah that's more the idea I was going for when I posted some quick models on the previous page.
The inclusion of a servo sub+amp is optional tho, esp if there are some good passive 8 to 12" woofers that work well, tho they will likely reqire a vent/port to reach below 50-60Hz they would reach in a sealed cabinet, but could possibly get some that hit in the 30-40 range.
The servo option with XLS drivers would bring price to $1500 before factoring in a cabinet.
A fully passive version should bring costs down below $1000, possibly even down to $600-700 range?
Yes ^
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Yeah, I was thinking under $1,000.. Most people think $500 is a LOT for speakers.
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Yeah, I was thinking under $1,000.. Most people think $500 is a LOT for speakers.
Hey -- do you guys want a true party speaker or not? There are tons of cheap speakers on the market under $1,000. If you want quality, you gotta pay for it.
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Hey -- do you guys want a true party speaker or not? There are tons of cheap speakers on the market under $1,000. If you want quality, you gotta pay for it.
Those $1000 speakers usually have about $100 worth of parts in them though. I don't disagree necessarily, but with a proper Danny design you can spend $1000 and it may compete with anything to the $3000-5000 range.
Most people who want the party speakers (we aren't most people) won't be thinking, "man, if I replaced yada yada with a miflex cap in the yada yada I wouldn't hear that slight sibilance at the 6khz range" :lol: I'm sure there could be room for a couple price ranges of these party speakers of course...
:popcorn:
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Those $1000 speakers usually have about $100 worth of parts in them though. I don't disagree necessarily, but with a proper Danny design you can spend $1000 and it may compete with anything to the $3000-5000 range.
Well, Danny has already stated potentially using sealed servo subs, so with the subs and amps to power them, the price already exceeds $1,000 for a flat pack. He also spoke about working with Radian, and if you visit their website, you can see the prices for their drivers. Not cheap, y'all. That's where I'm getting my estimates from.
You gotta be realistic. Don't ask Danny to design a $1,000 party speaker. If it were that simple, there would be a lot more options available.
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Speakers are a constant game of compromise.
Price, quality, quantity, precision, etc, etc.
But for me, the basic idea is an affordable speaker that looks retro, can hide the flaws of a recording, but still sounds good, and can be turned up to rock out without the worry of fatigue. Binding post, Erse caps, etc. Nothing crazy or over the top.
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Speakers are a constant game of compromise.
Price, quality, quantity, precision, etc, etc.
But for me, the basic idea is an affordable speaker that looks retro, can hide the flaws of a recording, but still sounds good, and can be turned up to rock out without the worry of fatigue. Binding post, Erse caps, etc. Nothing crazy or over the top.
The cost of a "fun speaker" are contained in the large drivers. You can use cheap woofers, for instance, but they won't likely sound good and unfatiguing, nor hide flaws in the recordings. High quality drivers are required for what you want. If you're asking GR Research to be involved, I wouldn't expect anything less than servo subs or an equivalent on the low end.
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So.... it's not as simple as:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224556)
*save copy as* "BIG LGK" *scale* x5
:lol: :lol:
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You gotta be realistic. Don't ask Danny to design a $1,000 party speaker. If it were that simple, there would be a lot more options available.
In a sense, he already has with the redesign of Tyson's Fortes. I'm guessing those drivers don't cost more than a few hundred bucks but I could be wrong.
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The cost of a "fun speaker" are contained in the large drivers. You can use cheap woofers, for instance, but they won't likely sound good and unfatiguing, nor hide flaws in the recordings. High quality drivers are required for what you want. If you're asking GR Research to be involved, I wouldn't expect anything less than servo subs or an equivalent on the low end.
But that’s not what I proposed. My whole goal was fun, cheap, easy to build, 40Hz bass, and better than average sound quality. Maybe Danny isn’t interested in this design and that’s fine.
It was an idea inspired by a thread I saw elsewhere showing classic (heh) 80’s and 90’s rack stereos. I was kind of impressed how many people still use those. People are still listening to the cheap speakers from that time. Yeah those old box speakers weren’t audiophile approved but for most people they get the job done. I was just thinking if Danny could find the right drivers something similar could be accomplished. I know the XLS is his go to for entry level quality but they still come with compromises such as no low bass, and they need stands. I still recommend the X-CS which have more bass but still need stands. And kits for a pair with flat pack are just over $1k.
Maybe I’m too idealistic. I was a broke audiophile for a long time and bang for the buck was always a priority for me.
https://youtu.be/zqHZWdFVyyQ (https://youtu.be/zqHZWdFVyyQ)
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Fine, ignore me, you luddites!
Fun seems less when having to tune the speaker with controls.
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Yeah thats the idea I was running with.
Cuz even if those big, boxy speakers don't have all the benefits of a modern, well-enginered design, they look the part and still sound pretty good, esp if you're just casually listening, watching a movie, or having drinks with friends. Just big "wall of sound" speakers.
So long as you pick decent quality drivers and a well designed crossover, you can make something fun, and you don't have to break the bank doing it. But that's the fun here, throwing out ideas to see what sticks and what people like/dont.
It doesn't have to become an actual product. :P
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Fine, ignore me, you luddites!
Fun seems less when having to tune the speaker with controls.
To be fair your post was at the end of the page. Plus, haven’t you heard? Tone controls are back! :lol:
Btw, where’s the new amp?
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Which new amp?
Are you requesting a loudness button? :lol:
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I've seen & heard the big Monoblocks you've been working on while they were getting burned in last week, along with the new set of output copper caps on Danny's Dodd preamp. May have also saw a couple with tube sockets sitting on the shelf as well..
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Which new amp?
Are you requesting a loudness button? :lol:
A few weeks ago someone mentioned you and Danny were collaborating on a stereo chip amp with tube connector outputs. Sounds cool to me. I tried building something similar to Danny’s little monoblocks but damaged the pcb. I’ve been meaning to try again but lately got back into my tube amps.
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All I can say is that everything takes a lot of time, more than ever...
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Parts, assembly, testing, revising, more testing, more changes, etc. etc.
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Okay guys here is the plan and challenge.
I plan on using this line of drivers. Please check them out: https://radianaudio.com/collections/coaxials-ferrite
Now the next trick is to mate them with a woofer or pair of woofers below each driver that matches them in size and cabinet width.
I want to keep them an 8 ohm load so that they are easy to drive.
I would like to use the Radian woofers as well. These kits are for them also. But they currently don't have woofers that really suitably fit. They are willing to make some new variances of the woofers and higher impedance loads (like 16 ohm woofers) so that they can be paralleled to get back to 8 ohms.
And they currently do not have 8" or 10" woofers.
A lower cost all passive version might be more ideal if a sealed box is used and a low extension is not a target goal. The reason being is that a big bad speaker that plays down really low is hard to get good room balance on (heavy room gain down low) without some way to adjust the lower ranges. And large ported woofer start requiring huge air spaces.
So maybe I can figure out a passive woofer solution for the 8" and 10" coaxial models with 12" servo subs for the 12" coaxial model.
Now return to the discussion.
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8" coaxial with 8" servo sub, or pair of them.
Basically a 30% smaller version of the ones that Jonathon shared earlier.
Then a large model with all 12" drivers.
Of course we're still talking $2000-4000
I'm sure there are some good 8" and 12" passive woofers out there but the trick will be keeping their sensitivity up, without hurting extension.
Or possibly Coax, Woofer & Sub setup? With the sub taking over below 80-100Hz.. It should limit the passive woofers need for higher excursion, and keep the mids fast & focused.
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12" coaxial with 12" woofer.
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I would go 10’s with the woofer I recommend that has .44qts, in bipolar. The bass will be damn good, and they won’t sound completely different from the mid. And if they are floor standers I would want them within 8” of the ground so that there isn’t any floor bounce. That would probably knock most people socks off in performance, including bass. And you’ll be 96db passive, sealed, and with I think a pretty small box overall.
But who cares what I think. I probably won’t get around to making any.
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But who cares what I think. I probably won’t get around to making any.
Hey man, this is all just an exercise in creativity, and throwing ideas at a wall to see what sparks interest! :thumb:
Be it a "fun" rock-out speaker, or the other thread where I designed some ideas for NX-Otica+ sub towers. That dont take up the extra floor space that set that H-Frame subs need. :P
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Bi-polar bass can be silly powerful. I've heard bipolar fullrange 4" drive techno sound in a TL hard.
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Hey man, this is all just an exercise in creativity, and throwing ideas at a wall to see what sparks interest! :thumb:
Be it a "fun" rock-out speaker, or the other thread where I designed some ideas for NX-Otica+ sub towers. That dont take up the extra floor space that set that H-Frame subs need. :P
Hobbs -- we expect you to begin the design work based on what Danny and Folsom have said. That would be a breeze for you. 8) I'm sure someone on AC will volunteer to be the first adopter and purchase the drivers. Only thing needed now is a cabinet and a crossover. We'll call it the ARS-1 which stands for "Audiocircle's Rockout Speakers." All proceeds go to benefit starving audiophiles.
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You got it, dude! :thumb:
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I looked through Radian bass units but they’re all designed for ported or horn type stuff. Plus no one is going to actually put in 1000w into 96db speakers, in a living room.
The only usable bass driver from Radian is a 15”.
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I looked through Radian bass units but they’re all designed for ported or horn type stuff. Plus no one is going to actually put in 1000w into 96db speakers, in a living room.
The only usable bass driver from Radian is a 15”.
So is this what you're suggesting:
https://radianaudio.com/collections/coaxials-ferrite/products/5210-10-coaxial-speaker?variant=20538611073086
https://radianaudio.com/collections/woofer/products/2216-15-subwoofer
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No, I'm suggesting don't use Radian for the bass. I think it's a bad idea. I don't think they have any offering that is a good idea for a sealed box.
I think 10" drivers all around for a small (ish) tower that is super fun and passive.
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I remember in the mid 90’s bipolar speakers were in vogue. Paradigm, Definitive Technology, and I think Mirage made them. They had the same issue as open baffle or dipole speakers in that you had to get them away from the walls. I thought they sounded more spacious than regular box speakers and wanted a pair. Folsom’s idea sounds cool.
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So, I know this discussion has so far been on sealed box speakers but...
we are maybe only an end mill or hole saw to the compression driver away from a reborn OB Super-V and or V2 if the coaxes would play nice in the open air...
Back on track, I'll also throw out there mention of anyone who has heard Jim Salk's Exotica 3; it used expensive tweeter and mid, but paired it with dual servo 8" subs for the lows. Having heard those, the V2s, Super-V, and lived with the sealed box version I had built, I'd venture:
- The 8" radian with dual 8" servos sealed might be the best all-arounder for normal sized listening rooms
- The 12" radian(s?) with dual 12" servos sealed is something I think people would THINK they want, but once they get it home I'm not sure they'd be happy with it in a lot of cases. You really are talking a stadium-filling speaker. Sure, it might be fun with a low powered tube amp, but in my experience even though high quality low power made the speaker sound really nice, I found myself consistently wanting more power to really take advantage of the effortless dynamics the speaker could reproduce. This was in spite of that the speaker already easily overloaded/overpowered a decent sized room that otherwise easily soaked up bass overload. Bottom line is I think - like the LS9 - it would be a cool statement kind of speaker but something very few could actually do well with once you have to live with them.
- If one of the ideas is to make these 100% Radian driver speakers, I think Folsom is most on to something looking at the 10" if an idea is also to make a 100% passive speaker. If Radian could make a non-coax 16-ohm version of their 10" that a pair of woofers could make a solid response down to mid-30 to 40Hz with in a sealed box so the box didn't have to be huge, I think it could be a solid "big" but not overpowering speaker that could fit well in a lot more listening rooms. The first challenges I see there are that we'd be talking about Radian making a kind of niche-within-a-niche woofer that may not sell enough units to cost justify a production run on and that the difference in price between going with something like this and just using a pair of servo woofers (either size) would really just be the cost of the plate amps, because the boxes would roughly be the same...and the crossovers would be cheaper/simpler because it would only have to be a 2-way rather than 3-way crossover...
(not to mention that any of these 3-driver ideas doesn't fit with the notion that every design has to be something that can easily be a monitor to plop on top of a pair of existing servo subs rather than a complete speaker in its own right... :wink:)
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You're not paying attention... Radian has nothing smaller than a 15" that is viable for bass. MOST of them are barely usable for a ported box. Their QTS is way too low. That means they're very damped. Your bass will sound like shit if you put them in a sealed or ported box because it'll be thin and clinical at best. They are designed to be put into massive cabinets and have thousands of watts driven through them.
The Radian coaxial is also in a poor range of QTS for open baffle. The original that Danny used I suspect was very different. Danny's Q speakers he uses in open baffles are in the 50's and 60's for QTS, the Radian's are low 30's and below. They'll do well in a box with nothing more than no-rez inside it, primarily because they don't have to make any bass. I suspect the original V's that Danny made had a very different main driver more apt to open baffle.
But I'm also still in favor of an LGK (if available) + tweeter + bipole. Even if you could use a Radian bass worth a damn, you'd be making some pretty expensive speakers. You'd be paying for heat dissipation with no sound quality gain mostly, which you'd only need if you were using them as PA in a local gym or something.
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We've come full circle to what Danny said: "So maybe I can figure out a passive woofer solution for the 8" and 10" coaxial models with 12" servo subs for the 12" coaxial model."
It appears as though he's talking about two models, one of which the 8" and 10" Radian woofers don't currently exist, and the other that is readily available -- the 12" servo subs with a 12" coaxial (the new Super V???).
And yes, JJ -- for a party speaker, you absolutely want "stadium filling" sound, even in a medium sized room, so a 12" coaxial speaker with servo subs is the way to go if price isn't a consideration. However, to prevent from overpowering the room, the subs ought to be open baffle.
This project screams of needing a modular approach...
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A party is challenging if your speakers have to be in the middle of the room.
It would be interesting to have a box on top of servo open frames for 12". It'd make sense physically to some degree, and you don't need as much wall distance for bass. However not having the amps mounted makes it kind of complicated, so I'd consider putting them on the back of the box for the mid.
The Radian 5210 iand 5312 are pretty darn smooth. The 5312 could actually be put in it's own box and be a good speaker. It could be ported, too. But if you want party level of bass I still high recommend bipolar. I suspect that with an aperiodic vent the mids will be damn good. This could be more than a party speaker alone.
The FAITAL PRO 10FE200 is very appealing for this use. It has a OB level of QTS, but there's nothing wrong with putting that in a box because it'll only misshape the midrange/highs it won't be playing. Because it has low enough damping it can play well past the FS. With room gain it'll rock your socks into the 30's with usable bass. Plus it'll save you a thousand dollars over Radian units that will sound boring. You'll be able to stuff the bass cavity. And it'll sound like voluminous thick bass, not anemic in image.
And bipolar speakers cancel vibrations within themselves, so you won't wreck the sound with such intense bass.
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So why not
10" Speaker:
2x Radian 5210
4x FAITAL PRO 10FE200
+Danny Richie Magic
12" Speaker:
2x Radian 5312
4x SW-12
2x A370 PEQ
+Danny Richie Magic
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I remember in the mid 90’s bipolar speakers were in vogue.
Sometimes they were happy. Sometimes not.
:icon_lol:
I could not resist.
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The 5312 could actually be put in it's own box and be a good speaker. It could be ported, too.
I thought of this as part of a modular option for those who already have subs. Set the 5312's on top of a pair of dual servo subs and you got a rockin' speaker.
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Sometimes they were happy. Sometimes not.
:icon_lol:
I could not resist.
Lithium dielectric contact grease remedied that.
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I thought of this as part of a modular option for those who already have subs. Set the 5312's on top of a pair of dual servo subs and you got a rockin' speaker.
:thumb:
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I thought of this as part of a modular option for those who already have subs. Set the 5312's on top of a pair of dual servo subs and you got a rockin' speaker.
I'd be interested in that. Big price difference between the beryllium and aluminum versions though. Hope the aluminum's sound OK.
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I'd be interested in that. Big price difference between the beryllium and aluminum versions though. Hope the aluminum's sound OK.
I believe a big part of the difference in cost is that beryllium is fragile, highly toxic, and difficult to work, so it has to be treated like a hazardous material. This whole process is expensive, although beryllium supposedly improves the sound.
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Be tweeters sound much better than aluminum tweeters.
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Be tweeters sound much better than aluminum tweeters.
No doubt, but how much of that sound superiority would transfer to the lower frequency ranges of a 12" driver though, and for a party speaker, would I care? To be honest, I wouldn't have thought Danny would be interested in any metal driver, but I trust him...darnit! 8)
Looking at the description more closely, is the entire diaphragm out to the surround metal? It says the dome (dust cap) is aluminum, and on the selection page is has you pick either be or aluminum for the diaphragm so that is why I'm assuming it's all metal to the surround.
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The Radian compression drivers have mylar surrounds on the aluminum or Be diaphragms.
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If you can afford it, go with beryllium.
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Does the collaboration with radian means we may see a new Super 7 like build to top the dual subs? If I'm not wrong one of the top of the line radians is used in the Lumia speaker, it would be an interesting alternative for who like me is planning to build the MTM otticas, perhaps have both :)
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This thread sure took off. I was just here a couple of days ago and there were only 4 posts?
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This thread sure took off. I was just here a couple of days ago and there were only 4 posts?
It also keeps flying away from my original concept. If it costs more than $1K then you might as well go with X-MTM.
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It also keeps flying away from my original concept. If it costs more than $1K then you might as well go with X-MTM.
All the Radian coaxes will be greater than a $1K build. :wink:
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It also keeps flying away from my original concept. If it costs more than $1K then you might as well go with X-MTM.
The X-MTM? Where's the fun in that?
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Ngl, I'd love to build a pair of X-MTM towers.. or something like the NX-MTM that use an open baffle tweeter and a pair of NQ-16s i designed a while back..
Maybe some day... :P
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It also keeps flying away from my original concept. If it costs more than $1K then you might as well go with X-MTM.
Yeah, two beryllium 5312 drivers alone are $2224. Add in the crossover and cabinet and you are pushing $3k and that doesn't include the bottom end. That's why I'm hoping the aluminum 5312 doesn't suck as two of those are "only" $1220 plus crossover/cabinet. I'm not bashing those who want to go this route...more power to you, but I'd like to see Danny do his magic on something that competes with Tyson's mod'd Forte at half the cost, or maybe even less. Has to be tons of markup on those Klipsch's. May not be possible, but here's to hoping! :thumb:
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All the Radian coaxes will be greater than a $1K build. :wink:
Exactly why I was talking about the LGK+tweeter+bipolar bass that isn't super expensive or needing ginormous boxes. Such a speaker could still get pretty darn loud, the LGK with limited range should play fairly loud. Obviously it wouldn't be intended for as good of 3D soundstage due to shape being like a classic, but that's not the point.
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Folsom,
Now you are talking my language.
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Another idea I had was to combine the lower sealed cabinet of the X-Statiks with the NX Studio on top but as a complete tower.
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I've seen a prototype of that! :P
It was 2 separate units, and it was originally suggested in the development thread, but I believe it didn't really achieve much more than the standard monitors.
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What if someone builds the speaker, sends it to Danny, then he does X-over?
That might be the fastest way.
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Okay guys here is the plan and challenge.
I plan on using this line of drivers. Please check them out: https://radianaudio.com/collections/coaxials-ferrite
Now the next trick is to mate them with a woofer or pair of woofers below each driver that matches them in size and cabinet width.
I want to keep them an 8 ohm load so that they are easy to drive.
I would like to use the Radian woofers as well. These kits are for them also. But they currently don't have woofers that really suitably fit. They are willing to make some new variances of the woofers and higher impedance loads (like 16 ohm woofers) so that they can be paralleled to get back to 8 ohms.
And they currently do not have 8" or 10" woofers.
A lower cost all passive version might be more ideal if a sealed box is used and a low extension is not a target goal. The reason being is that a big bad speaker that plays down really low is hard to get good room balance on (heavy room gain down low) without some way to adjust the lower ranges. And large ported woofer start requiring huge air spaces.
So maybe I can figure out a passive woofer solution for the 8" and 10" coaxial models with 12" servo subs for the 12" coaxial model.
Now return to the discussion.
Can these rival well setup Altec 604 coaxial speakers in sensitivity and sound quality? Looking for something to pair with a 8 watt SET amp.
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What if someone builds the speaker, sends it to Danny, then he does X-over?
That might be the fastest way.
Yes, he will build a network. But email him first, and see when is best to send it. I would also consider his drivers, what he uses and designs to help the fact of him building one. In other words, don’t put the tweeter out of alignment.. or 10 inches away. My suggestion, could be wrong but come close to what he does. Over lap the tweeter with mid. Send him your thoughts, when you want to send him the speaker. Depending on your drivers (I would use his) He may have a network design ready.
Just email info@GR-research.com when you gather all your ideas and thoughts.
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Yes, he will build a network. But email him first, and see when is best to send it. I would also consider his drivers, what he uses and designs to help the fact of him building one. In other words, don’t put the tweeter out of alignment.. or 10 inches away. My suggestion, could be wrong but come close to what he does. Over lap the tweeter with mid. Send him your thoughts, when you want to send him the speaker. Depending on your drivers (I would use his) He may have a network design ready.
Just email info@GR-research.com when you gather all your ideas and thoughts.
Right, I'm not building them myself. And unfortunately he doesn't have any larger bass/midbass drivers which is why I specified other brands that could work. What I'd really want is the LGK, if it's coming in.
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Right, I'm not building them myself. And unfortunately he doesn't have any larger bass/midbass drivers which is why I specified other brands that could work. What I'd really want is the LGK, if it's coming in.
Sounds like the production run is starting soon on these based on the update from Hobbs the other day.
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Yeah, LGK 2.0 prototypes look really nice too.