AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Rock Ball on 23 Apr 2020, 11:06 pm

Title: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 23 Apr 2020, 11:06 pm
I received my NX-Tremes flat pack from Captainhemo (Jay) today.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207698)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207699)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207700)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207701)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207702)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207705)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207707)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207708)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207709)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207710)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207711)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207712)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207713)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207714)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207716)

Started working on the dry fit.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207717)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207719)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207720)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207721)

The weight is more manageable that I was expecting.

More to come.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: mlundy57 on 23 Apr 2020, 11:28 pm
And you’re off to the races  :green:
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Early B. on 24 Apr 2020, 12:02 am
Are you sure you have enough clamps?  :lol:
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Stickman on 24 Apr 2020, 01:13 am
Those flat packs from Jay look perfect. Glue up should be easy with those fades for the braces. Are there any builders who have put a finish on any parts prior to glue up?

Very impressive and speedy! I'm going to be watching this one.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 24 Apr 2020, 04:08 am
Got the first one glued tonight.  I decided to glue the base and the top while I was at it.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207726)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207727)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207730)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207728)

Are you sure you have enough clamps?  :lol:
Actually, no.  I could have used a few more!

It took almost 40 minutes from start to finish.  I used Titebond Extend glue so I had a little more time to work with it before it set.

EDIT:  I used a total of 8 oz. of glue on both cabinets.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 24 Apr 2020, 11:33 am
Enjoy! This will be fun to watch!

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Sonicjoy on 24 Apr 2020, 01:32 pm
Very cool! Thanks for sharing! I will be following along as well.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: RonP on 24 Apr 2020, 03:26 pm
Hang on.. are you building BOTH the NX-Otica's and NX-treme's right now?

wow!
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Audiophile NM on 24 Apr 2020, 03:33 pm
Those flat packs from Jay look perfect. Glue up should be easy with those fades for the braces. Are there any builders who have put a finish on any parts prior to glue up?

Very impressive and speedy! I'm going to be watching this one.

Your question about finishing is a great one but, from a woodworking perspective, pre-finishing parts is discouraged because the finish weakens the structural glue joints. It's a shame, as it would be SO much easier to pre-finish parts in any cabinet build...
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Captainhemo on 24 Apr 2020, 03:51 pm
Wow Allan,   jumped right in !!  Glad to see they arrived safe and sound.


jay
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 24 Apr 2020, 05:28 pm
Hang on.. are you building BOTH the NX-Otica's and NX-treme's right now?

My brother is building the NX-Oticas.  I just post his progress.  I am only building the NX-Tremes.  Unfortunately, with the coronavirus situation, we can't work together on either of them.  And we won't be able to listen to each other's builds once they are done, at least not for a while.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Bioman on 25 Apr 2020, 01:16 pm
Allen, have not had a chance to open up the boxes.  I would imagine these are mirror-image pairs; so is this accomplished by the parts being keyed or is a right simply and upside-down left due to symmetry?

PS, to others who do a build this complex; there is another glue option I have used on every build I have ever done; including furniture with complex joinery.  It is Liquid Hide glue.  It has an open time up to 90 minutes (cool environment) and is VERY strong when cured.  Makes things less panicked then 10 or 15-minute open times on glue.  The only downside with hide-glues is that moisture can soften the joint temporarily until it evaporates.  But that much moisture would destroy an MDF construct so not a practical concern anyways.  Also, it cleans up (both cabinets and clothing) with a slightly moist rag much easier than an aliphatic compound (yellow glues).
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Folsom on 25 Apr 2020, 04:11 pm
Wow, nice flatpack!
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: nickd on 25 Apr 2020, 04:34 pm
I love any build that requires a ladder! :green:
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 25 Apr 2020, 04:42 pm
I would imagine these are mirror-image pairs; so is this accomplished by the parts being keyed or is a right simply and upside-down left due to symmetry?

Jay marked all the parts clearly to show left/right, front/back, or top/bottom.

I love any build that requires a ladder! :green:

 :lol:
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: mlundy57 on 25 Apr 2020, 05:03 pm
Where did you get the ratchet clamps with the corner braces?
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 25 Apr 2020, 05:23 pm
Where did you get the ratchet clamps with the corner braces?

I got the ratcheting band clamps at Harbor Freight, along with most of the other clamps:
https://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-x-15-ft-ratcheting-band-clamp-66220.html
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 25 Apr 2020, 05:55 pm
Primer coat applied.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207841)

I'm not doing anything fancy with the finish.  Front baffle will be matte black and sides will be coated with Duratex.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Captainhemo on 25 Apr 2020, 06:23 pm
Allen, have not had a chance to open up the boxes.  I would imagine these are mirror-image pairs; so is this accomplished by the parts being keyed or is a right simply and upside-down left due to symmetry?

PS, to others who do a build this complex; there is another glue option I have used on every build I have ever done; including furniture with complex joinery.  It is Liquid Hide glue.  It has an open time up to 90 minutes (cool environment) and is VERY strong when cured.  Makes things less panicked then 10 or 15-minute open times on glue.  The only downside with hide-glues is that moisture can soften the joint temporarily until it evaporates.  But that much moisture would destroy an MDF construct so not a practical concern anyways.  Also, it cleans up (both cabinets and clothing) with a slightly moist rag much easier than an aliphatic compound (yellow glues).

There is a left  and right, mirror images of  each other.... we  mark all the parts   when we're dry fitting prior to packing them up.

Looking good  Allan  :thumb:
jay
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 27 Apr 2020, 04:33 pm
It was a long weekend.

Painted.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207931)

Drivers installed.  Ready to wire.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207930)
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: mlundy57 on 27 Apr 2020, 04:40 pm
There is definitely something to be said for all black  :thumb:
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: mcgsxr on 27 Apr 2020, 05:39 pm
As a guy that has built 4-5 sets of speakers with only 4 24 inch clamps - WOW that’s a big build.

No surprise that flat pack is well done.  Those western Canucks know their stuff.  Have not bought any of these, but have bought parts from the community out there. 

Excellent progress and thanks for sharing.  Love build pics. 
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: reddman71 on 27 Apr 2020, 09:59 pm
Those are looking great. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on how they sound once you get them up and running.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Captainhemo on 27 Apr 2020, 10:32 pm
Pay attention  ,  the  tweeter and   8 M165's   are wired out of phase... just  a heads up.
It's almost the big  day for you !!


jay
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 28 Apr 2020, 08:02 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208000)
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: rollo on 28 Apr 2020, 08:14 pm
Wow Allan,   jumped right in !!  Glad to see they arrived safe and sound.


jay


  Jay beautiful work.

charles
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Sonicjoy on 28 Apr 2020, 11:27 pm
Very nice! Would love to hear them.  :thumb:

Edit: Looks like the apes are interested also.  :lol:
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Captainhemo on 29 Apr 2020, 06:49 pm

  Jay beautiful work.

charles

Thanks Charles, appreciate that.  These things are not quick and easy to   dry fit,  pack, and ship out
I know it's been  slow  gettingthis latest run out to folks but we're almost   caught up....   .  so, if  "your're "  still waiting  for a shipment,  they  are  coming  real soon


jay
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: RonP on 29 Apr 2020, 08:52 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208000)

well-played sir!
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Tyson on 29 Apr 2020, 10:37 pm
Clearly your first album needs to be Thus Sprach Zarathustra by Richard Strauss!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71TNI-SjFSL._SX522_.jpg)
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 29 Apr 2020, 11:29 pm
well-played sir!
I was beginning to wonder if anyone would recognize that scene.

Clearly your first album needs to be Thus Sprach Zarathustra by Richard Strauss!
I thought about that, but ended up playing Tool.  I think I'll go put that on now.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 29 Apr 2020, 11:40 pm
I built the crossovers about a month ago.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208064)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208074)

The tweeter circuit leads are correctly color-matched to the tweeter terminal, but the low end circuit leads are not.  I misinterpreted the schematic at first, but connected it correctly in the speaker.

I used the solid core wire on my subs and had only enough for my tweeters after building the crossovers.  The additional wire I bought from Danny was the 14-gauge multi-strand.  I had trouble figuring out how to connect it to the driver terminals at first, but finally got everything wired last night.

I've been listening to them without the No Rez.  I will install that by this weekend.

EDIT:  See this thread for how I connected the crossover wire to the copper foil inductor.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=177128.msg1864764#msg1864764
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Bioman on 30 Apr 2020, 12:19 pm
Routing the wire and cable management can be a challenge in any build.  Can you take a few pictures of the columns from the rear and tell us what to do and what not to do based on your build.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Captainhemo on 30 Apr 2020, 06:13 pm
We've added holes to both sides of the bracing  so, in the  lower section, you can run the  woofer wiring up the outside of the cabinet  while running the  tweeter and mid circuit up the inside.  Once you  get above the   first  "J" brace,  , you can cross them all over to the inside so you  don't   cross the outer  tweeter opening.

If you  look at our Super 7  flat pack thread,  when we built out the first pair  I found  some   cool little wiring  loops/holder with  a  3M PSA  on the back...   you can get the   mids/tweeter wiring through them but not  everything... need to find  a bigger  size    if you  want to  use them   to  tidy up the lower  section as well.

Post #249
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159096.240

jay
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 1 May 2020, 01:55 am
Routing the wire and cable management can be a challenge in any build.  Can you take a few pictures of the columns from the rear and tell us what to do and what not to do based on your build.

I'm certainly no expert, so all I can tell you is what I did.  Good or bad.  Take it or leave it.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208146)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208147)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208145)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208152)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208153)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208154)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208158)

I didn't want to splice wire, so I had to figure out a way to connect the 14-gauge stranded wire securely to the speaker terminals.  Here's what I came up with.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208149)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208150)

I separate 3 strands and doubled them, then twisted them.  Doesn't look great but it is secure.  I'd like to hear suggestions about other ways to do it.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208157)

The white wire is what I had left over from the 16-gauge solid core wire.  (represented by green in the schematic above)
 
I was happy with how the tweeter wiring came out, using the solid core wire.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208156)

I'll tidy up the loose wiring when I install the No Rez.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: adam.dickson@comcast.net on 4 May 2020, 06:52 pm
This is great info - especially the wiring diagrams. It will be super helpful when I go to build my NX-Tremes later this summer when they come back in stock. Thanks for taking the time to share it.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 5 May 2020, 04:50 am
I finished the speakers tonight.  I made some measurements with REW.  Here's the L and R speakers with the subs.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208387)

I'm not sure what to make of the graph, but the speakers sound fantastic.

I'll upload some pictures tomorrow of the speakers with the No-Rez installed.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: RonP on 5 May 2020, 01:58 pm
I wonder how much that'll settle in after, say, 50 hrs of playback. It'd be interesting to see those measurements again later.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 5 May 2020, 02:55 pm
I wonder if that peak at 150 is caused by room resonance or surface reflections? That said, the bass as a whole seems boosted a bit too?
But I don't know the layout of your room or how you measured them. could account for the differences between the left and right towers?
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Tyson on 5 May 2020, 03:14 pm
150hz is almost certainly a room mode. I have to deal with a similar issue in my upstairs system. 

Run the sweeps again but with the subs off. 
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: mlundy57 on 5 May 2020, 03:58 pm
I wonder if that peak at 150 is caused by room resonance or surface reflections? That said, the bass as a whole seems boosted a bit too?
But I don't know the layout of your room or how you measured them. could account for the differences between the left and right towers?

That could be on purpose. I run my bass 2-3dB high also. It sounds better to me that way.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: AKLegal on 5 May 2020, 04:02 pm
I wonder if that peak at 150 is caused by room resonance or surface reflections? That said, the bass as a whole seems boosted a bit too?
But I don't know the layout of your room or how you measured them. could account for the differences between the left and right towers?

This was my thought as well.  That peak is a little bit past where the sub amp can directly fix it but reducing the amp output and maybe playing phase and frequency cutoff could drop that peak 5-10 db and get it more in line with the mids. 

If he has an asymmetric room the sub amps will probably need different settings anyway.

Will be interested to see measurements with the subs off and measurements with just the subs.  As Tyson alluded to, bass traps will probably be needed. 

NICE avatar pic Rock Ball.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 5 May 2020, 04:04 pm
That could be on purpose. I run my bass 2-3dB high also. It sounds better to me that way.

That's a fair point, I generally prefer it that way myself as well, tho my housemates don't appreciate much it since they often sleep during the afternoons/evening.. lol
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 5 May 2020, 06:30 pm
With no subs...

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208410)
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 5 May 2020, 06:58 pm
Looking at the two results side by side, they're extremely consistent with the previous results, which is a good thing.
But im curious, is there a difference in their proximity to side-walls? Or are you moving them into the middle of the room one at a time to measure them? Are there areas where the room is open to other rooms and is there any room treatment?

Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Captainhemo on 5 May 2020, 07:13 pm
Movem closer  and further  away from  front wall too,    shoot measurements.....  room placement can make a  big difference

jay
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Tyson on 5 May 2020, 07:49 pm
Take 4 more sets of measurements - one from 4 feet to the left of the sweet spot and one from 4 feet to the right of the sweet spot one from 4 feet in front of the sweet spot and one from 4 feet behind the sweet spot..  This will tell you if that 150hz bump is a result of a horizontal (side to side or front to back) problem or from a vertical (floor to ceiling) problem. 

If the 150hz issue changes in the different positions, it's a horizontal problem and moving the speakers around can probably make it better.

If the 150hz doesn't budge on any of the measurement, then it's a vertical (floor to ceiling) issue and you'll need a bass trap or EQ to correct it.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Tyson on 5 May 2020, 07:54 pm
I should also point out that your current in-room measurements are actually quite excellent.  In my upstairs system I have several peaks of over 15db thanks to room acoustics.  Of course I am also using box speakers which are way worse with these types of problems.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: jcsperson on 5 May 2020, 08:54 pm
I love any build that requires a ladder! :green:

Beat me to it. I've done some (non-audio) woodworking over the years, but I never had to use a ladder.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 5 May 2020, 10:39 pm
Here are the measurements for how I cut my No-Rez panels on a table saw.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208430)

I used four 7"x13.5" pieces for the top-most sections and custom-cut them to fit using a fine-tooth hacksaw blade.  Razor blades did not work well for me.  I also used the hacksaw blade like a file to smooth out uneven areas.

Here's the finished product.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208431)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208432)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208433)

Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 5 May 2020, 10:51 pm
Wide shot in my home theater.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208434&size=huge)

Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Tyson on 5 May 2020, 10:53 pm
Nice.  How does it sound w/the Norez vs without?
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 5 May 2020, 10:58 pm
Nice.  How does it sound w/the Norez vs without?
I listened to them several days without the No-Rez.  When I installed it, to be honest, I am not sure that I heard much of a difference.  I don't have the audio memory needed, I guess.  I would have to do an A/B to be able to tell.

You most certainly can hear the difference on the resonance of the cabinets with you knock on them.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 5 May 2020, 11:10 pm
Wow! that's one hell of a setup! They all turned out really well!
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 5 May 2020, 11:24 pm
Very Nice. You must be one happy camper.

Just a heads up for anyone doing a build. I noticed you did not paint the sections where norez will go. It's always good practice to paint all the surfaces for moisture control. If you only paint one side, the other could end up absorbing more ambient moristure and warp the material. That is so well braced it will be o.k..

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Early B. on 6 May 2020, 12:38 am
I listened to them several days without the No-Rez.  When I installed it, to be honest, I am not sure that I heard much of a difference.  I don't have the audio memory needed, I guess.

Your audio memory is probably fine, and your results aren't surprising. I had the same thought when I installed no rez in my OB subs. I've been tempted, many times, to rip it out and see what happens. Like everything else in audio, some people swear by it, others not so much.   
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: corndog71 on 6 May 2020, 12:51 am
When I’ve added No Rez I would do one speaker and then compare it to the stock.  It’s pretty easy to tell them apart.

Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Jmitchell3 on 6 May 2020, 12:55 am
Wouldn’t the no Rez issue be most obvious in a box speaker vs an OB speaker?
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 6 May 2020, 01:01 pm
Thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions.

I plan to make more measurements tonight using your suggestions.  In the meantime, I have some more graphs from my measurement session on 5/4/2020 that I hope you find interesting.

These measurements were made with the No-Rez installed in the speakers.  The mic was on a mic stand at ear height with the arm extended all the way out.

In this measurement, the right speaker was forward facing with only a very slight tow in.  The mic was placed in 3 positions:  center (seat), left (mic swung to the left of seat about 2-3 ft), and right (mic swung to the right of seat 2-3 ft).  The right speaker was pointing almost directly at the mic in the right position.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208462)

When I saw the right position graph, I thought that this indicated that I needed to tow in the speaker so that it pointed directly at the seat.  I did that and took another measurement.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208463)

I was expecting a better match than that.  Here's the original forward facing graph vs. the towed in graph, both with the mic at center (seat).

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208464)

To me, the best measurement was made with the mic to the right of the seat, with the speaker pointed directly at it (forward facing).  I think I have more experimenting to do with speaker placement.

More measurements to come.  Should I create a new thread for the measurements, or leave this subject in this build thread?
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Sonicjoy on 6 May 2020, 01:44 pm
Rockball those are some Badass looking speakers and subs! Great job! I would leave the measurement discussion in this thread. I hope you keep those side windows covered while measuring and listening. Other than that, looks like a nice listening room!

And ya cutting Norez with a knife works fine inside a box but a table saw does a cleaner job if it is visible like these open baffles.

Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: rockdrummer on 6 May 2020, 01:53 pm
WOW!!!  Those look so good.  I bet they sound even better than they look.

I really like my setup, but this is an example of what makes want more!

Great job, and happy listening.

Ben
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 6 May 2020, 02:00 pm
I hope you keep those side windows covered while measuring and listening.

For years, I've been operating under the same assumption.  All the videos that I watch on YouTube say the same thing...use absorption on side wall reflection points, especially in front of windows.

This past Sunday, my wife was watching TV with me.  She likes it sunny in the room, so we pulled the curtains back and opened the blinds.  When she left, I put on Tool and cranked it up a little.  I noticed it sounded different, like the sound stage had greatly expanded.  The speakers disappeared in the room and I had about a 160 deg horizontal sound stage.

My measurements were made with the blinds closed and curtains drawn so far.  I'll do some with them open.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Sonicjoy on 6 May 2020, 02:17 pm
I guess that just goes to show that you never really know what's going to happen until you try it.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 6 May 2020, 02:26 pm
I guess that just goes to show that you never really know what's going to happen until you try it.

That's one of the many lessons that I've learned on this build.

To your point though, I was planning to build some portable absorption panels to put in front of the windows when doing critical listening.  I am still going to do that so that I can experiment further with room treatments.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 7 May 2020, 04:28 am
Took some measurements tonight.  Here are a few of the more interesting ones.

Here's the original configuration with absorption panels, no diffusion.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208517)

Here's with diffusion panels stacked behind the speaker.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208516)

Here's the measurements of both configurations.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208515)

With the sub added.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208514)

L and R with subs and diffusion behind both speakers.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208513)

The right speaker has the equipment rack directly behind it.  It is not as open as the left speaker.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Tyson on 7 May 2020, 03:46 pm
I'd move the equipment so it's directly below the TV and as close to the wall as possible, and then add diffusion behind the right speaker. 
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Captainhemo on 12 May 2020, 01:29 am
More  NX-Treme baffles being cut... backside operations.   
For those interested,  13  tools involved in  cutting these including   4  custom   made   bits.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208773)


jay
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 12 May 2020, 02:53 am
Now that's an amazing sight to see!
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: soccer on 12 May 2020, 04:47 am
Gret job, those speakers look very cool.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Sonicjoy on 12 May 2020, 12:35 pm
WOW! That's a big CNC machine! Very cool! Thanks for sharing.

So Jay can you sell just the front baffles?
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Skilly on 13 May 2020, 08:59 am
Deleted
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 13 May 2020, 12:46 pm
UPS delivered both boxes, listed as 40 lbs and 130 lbs, to my garage.  The UPS driver was not a big guy, and he actually carried the long 130 lb box on his shoulder.  That was pretty amazing.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Bioman on 13 May 2020, 01:58 pm
You have a better class of UPS drivers in your area.  Mine dropped it at end of the driveway, stated they had not given him a dolly and it was my problem to get into the house.  Think I need to move to your area :?

So, now that your getting some hours on these, how is the sound changing?
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 13 May 2020, 02:20 pm
So, now that your getting some hours on these, how is the sound changing?

Since I finished the build, I've cleaned up boxes in my home theater, changed the speaker positions and moved diffusion panels around, so there are too many variables for me to pinpoint changes specific to the speakers.  However, they do sound better than at first listen, that I am sure about.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Bioman on 13 May 2020, 04:48 pm
Cool!  When this COVID stuff passes I would like to hear your setup.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: ccomplete on 13 May 2020, 10:58 pm
For years, I've been operating under the same assumption.  All the videos that I watch on YouTube say the same thing...use absorption on side wall reflection points, especially in front of windows.

This past Sunday, my wife was watching TV with me.  She likes it sunny in the room, so we pulled the curtains back and opened the blinds.  When she left, I put on Tool and cranked it up a little.  I noticed it sounded different, like the sound stage had greatly expanded.  The speakers disappeared in the room and I had about a 160 deg horizontal sound stage.

My measurements were made with the blinds closed and curtains drawn so far.  I'll do some with them open.

I’ve had the same experience. I have a window behind my speakers on the left wall but not on the right, I tried putting absorption on both sides and left it for a few weeks as it seemed to balance the center image somewhat. Took it down later and holy crap the soundstage was soo much bigger and the speakers disappeared more. Much less dead sounding overall.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: emailtim on 14 May 2020, 05:00 am
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208000)

LOL !!!  Love it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avjdKTqiVvQ

More  NX-Treme baffles being cut... backside operations.   
For those interested,  13  tools involved in  cutting these including   4  custom   made   bits.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208773)


jay

Impressive CNC.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 14 May 2020, 12:18 pm
LOL !!!  Love it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avjdKTqiVvQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-URy_Smyyk
At 0:37, pretty much how I reacted to my new speakers.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: rich121 on 31 May 2021, 02:09 pm
Would be great to read an update on how the speakers broke in, the changes from your last post and now and your thoughts.

Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 1 Jun 2021, 05:19 pm
Would be great to read an update on how the speakers broke in, the changes from your last post and now and your thoughts.

Thanks for your interest.  A lot of things have changed since my last post so I'll put some things together for an update.  I just finished placing some PI Audio acoustic panels behind the speakers and will take some measurements.

But I am loving the speakers and feel bad for those who have had to wait for parts.  I know it will be worth the wait and am anxious to see new build threads.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: subsonic1050 on 1 Jun 2021, 06:33 pm
Rockball - I'm waiting on parts for 2 pairs of NX-Treme's (one for myself and one for a friend/relative). I can't wait to get started on them and hear what everyone raves about! In the meantime I've been working on 2 pairs of triple servo subs which are almost done. Should be a great combination!

Out of curiosity, what did you have for speakers before and how would you compare them to the NX-treme's?
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 1 Jun 2021, 07:54 pm
Rockball - I'm waiting on parts for 2 pairs of NX-Treme's (one for myself and one for a friend/relative). I can't wait to get started on them and hear what everyone raves about! In the meantime I've been working on 2 pairs of triple servo subs which are almost done. Should be a great combination!

Out of curiosity, what did you have for speakers before and how would you compare them to the NX-treme's?

It sounds like your path is the same as mine.  I built the triple servo subs first while I waited for the cabinets for the NX-Tremes. 

My original speakers were custom made by Philip Bamberg (BESL).  They look just like the top portion (tweeter and midrange cabinet) of his larger speakers: 
http://bambergaudio.com/products/series5/5tmw.php

I thought the BESLs sounded very good but were small for the room, even with my infinite baffle (IB) sub system.  Replacing the IB sub with the two triple servo subs was a huge improvement, but the big surprise was how much better the BESLs sounded with them.

When I finished the NX-Tremes, there was no comparison.  It was such a huge leap for my system.  Now all my upgrades involve other components in my system.  The NX-Tremes allow me to hear small differences in tweaks that I never was able to hear before.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: subsonic1050 on 2 Jun 2021, 02:04 pm
Rock Ball - well you certainly have me even more excited to get mine finished! I was wanting to wait until I had everything done to try out the subs, but I know I'll be too excited to wait. They will have to pair with my Maggie's for a month or 2 before the final pairing comes together.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Speaker Challenged on 8 Jun 2021, 11:14 am
Rock Ball. Your setup is simply amazing. Enough said
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 6 Jul 2021, 06:34 pm
FINAL UPDATE:

I have all my acoustic panels in place and I made some measurements over the holiday weekend.  Here are some photos and charts.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226536&size=large)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226537&size=large)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226539)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226541)

L and R with subs (1/3 smoothing)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226542)

L and R with subs (Psychoacoustic)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226543)

L channel separates (1/3 smoothing)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226544)

L channel separates (Psychoacoustic)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226545)

R channel separates (1/3 smoothing)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226546)

R channel separates (Psychoacoustic)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226547)

I have a high-pass filter in the signal path to my TU-8600S 300B amp.  I have tube connectors installed on the amp and my GR-Research 24-strand speaker cables.

I like a little more bass so I have the volume turned up a little more on my subs, as seen in the graphs.

All of the diffusor panels (mostly PI Audio Group) have a few layers of paint, except for the skyline diffusors (Vicoustic) directly above the listening position.

The response is better with the curtains and blinds open.  I know this doesn't jive with common beliefs, but that's how my room is.

Final thoughts:

I am extremely happy with the sound.  I tried several different configurations that were suggested to me, but I found that the way I have the speakers positioned sounds best to me.

The imaging is great.  Sounds come from very precise locations.  These huge speakers actually disappear in the room.  With the lights out late at night, they visually disappear into the black background of the diffusor panels.

Of course, there is always a downside.  Here it is.  These speakers expose the true quality of recordings.  Some of the music I listened to in the past now sounds not-so-great.  In fact, some of it sounds really bad and I don't listen to it on this system.  It's fine in my car.

I encourage those who are building these speakers to post photos of your project.  I know that I really enjoy seeing photos.

Thanks for everyone's help and encouragement while building this system.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: subsonic1050 on 6 Jul 2021, 08:03 pm
I freaking love your setup. Beautiful setup and beautifully treated room. When I get these NX-treme's mine should be pretty much the same. Your room is a bit bigger than mine, but hopefully they'll perform as well. What do you think of the 8600 amp? I was looking at it myself but was worried it might be lacking in power - even with the 95db efficiency.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: hawkeyejw on 6 Jul 2021, 08:29 pm
Looks fantastic! How low does tour extension go with those subs? Looks like they are still going strong at 20 ha which is impressive!
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 6 Jul 2021, 08:36 pm
I freaking love your setup. Beautiful setup and beautifully treated room. When I get these NX-treme's mine should be pretty much the same. Your room is a bit bigger than mine, but hopefully they'll perform as well. What do you think of the 8600 amp? I was looking at it myself but was worried it might be lacking in power - even with the 95db efficiency.

Thanks!

I love my TU-8600S.  I built it with all the upgrades.  The only thing that causes it to clip is certain electronic music with heavy, synthetic bass.  I can play Tool all day and feel like I have enough power.  I don't listen to music real loud because there's a point at which the room starts to ring.

My brother has a TU-8600S also.  He built the NX-Oticas.  He felt that his Naim amps had a little more punch and thickness on the low end, but everything else is so much better with the TU-8600S that he uses it exclusively now.  He prefers acoustic singer/songwriter music (Jerry Jeff Walker, Little Feat, etc.) which sounds great on his system.

Looks fantastic! How low does tour extension go with those subs? Looks like they are still going strong at 20 ha which is impressive!

Thanks!

The subs will rattle the walls during a movie.  They go really low and are off the charts...literally.

Actually, I had to turn the rumble filter on because sometimes there will be extremely low frequency content in a YouTube video, and I don't want to damage the subs because they will play it.  I feel it but I can't hear it.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: hawkeyejw on 6 Jul 2021, 08:57 pm
That’s amazing response you’re getting, I would love to hear a movie with them to see how it differs from the typical home cinema experience with sealed or ported cabs.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 6 Jul 2021, 09:23 pm
That’s amazing response you’re getting, I would love to hear a movie with them to see how it differs from the typical home cinema experience with sealed or ported cabs.

This is what is behind the wall on the left-hand side of the TV.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226557)
(more photos in my gallery)

It is an IB (infinite baffle) sub with four 15" drivers powered by a 2500W amp.  It could rattle the windows.  I don't use it anymore because my OB subs sound so much better.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: cjsailer on 6 Jul 2021, 10:46 pm
Hey Rock, do you remember how you placed your diffusor order from PI Audio?  Their website seems way out of date.  I finally got a phone number for Greg, but that number has been giving the busy signal.  I could buy some from audiogon, but it's listed way higher than what you could pay if you placed a direct order.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 6 Jul 2021, 10:51 pm
Hey Rock, do you remember how you placed your diffusor order from PI Audio?  Their website seems way out of date.  I finally got a phone number for Greg, but that number has been giving the busy signal.  I could buy some from audiogon, but it's listed way higher than what you could pay if you placed a direct order.

I just sent you a PM.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: hawkeyejw on 6 Jul 2021, 11:22 pm
Quite an endorsement of the OB subs to switch from 4 beefy 15” in an IB to 4 12”s in an open baffle for HT duty.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: rich121 on 7 Jul 2021, 12:51 am
What do you think is causing the ringing? I would definitely be fixing that!


Thanks!

I love my TU-8600S.  I built it with all the upgrades.  The only thing that causes it to clip is certain electronic music with heavy, synthetic bass.  I can play Tool all day and feel like I have enough power.  I don't listen to music real loud because there's a point at which the room starts to ring.

My brother has a TU-8600S also.  He built the NX-Oticas.  He felt that his Naim amps had a little more punch and thickness on the low end, but everything else is so much better with the TU-8600S that he uses it exclusively now.  He prefers acoustic singer/songwriter music (Jerry Jeff Walker, Little Feat, etc.) which sounds great on his system.

Thanks!

The subs will rattle the walls during a movie.  They go really low and are off the charts...literally.

Actually, I had to turn the rumble filter on because sometimes there will be extremely low frequency content in a YouTube video, and I don't want to damage the subs because they will play it.  I feel it but I can't hear it.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 7 Jul 2021, 01:24 am
What do you think is causing the ringing? I would definitely be fixing that!

What I described as 'ringing' is what I hear when the speakers are turned up too loud for the room, and the quality of the sound degrades.  I don't normally play the system that loud anyway, so I can live with it the way it is.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Tyson on 7 Jul 2021, 03:25 am
I've heard some very good (and famous) infinite baffle subs and I agree with you Rock Ball - the servo OB subs are muuuuuuch better.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: rich121 on 7 Jul 2021, 05:16 am

At about how many db does the ringing start?

Have you experinced it with other speakers also?
What I described as 'ringing' is what I hear when the speakers are turned up too loud for the room, and the quality of the sound degrades.  I don't normally play the system that loud anyway, so I can live with it the way it is.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: corndog71 on 7 Jul 2021, 05:48 am
The ringing could be your tube amp.  Tube microphonics are a pain and the only solution is a different tube.  At least you only hear it when you crank it and not under normal use.  Try cranking it with a solid state amp.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: rich121 on 7 Jul 2021, 06:36 am
I agree... If turning up a 9 watt amp causes ringing something is up

The ringing could be your tube amp.  Tube microphonics are a pain and the only solution is a different tube.  At least you only hear it when you crank it and not under normal use.  Try cranking it with a solid state amp.
The ringing could be your tube amp.  Tube microphonics are a pain and the only solution is a different tube.  At least you only hear it when you crank it and not under normal use.  Try cranking it with a solid state amp.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 7 Jul 2021, 12:43 pm
At about how many db does the ringing start?

Have you experinced it with other speakers also?

I will have to measure that someday and update you.  I have experienced it with other speakers, and not just in my room.  I've walked into rooms at audio shows where the equipment was top-notch but it didn't sound good because they are playing it too loud for the room.

The ringing could be your tube amp.  Tube microphonics are a pain and the only solution is a different tube.  At least you only hear it when you crank it and not under normal use.  Try cranking it with a solid state amp.

It's possible.  I plan on building a high-powered solid state amp in the future.  At that point, all my theories could change.

I don't listen to music real loud because there's a point at which the room starts to ring.

I think my choice of words to describe what I hear was not very good.  The reason I don't listen to music real loud is because it disturbs my wife downstairs, especially since I removed the tennis balls from under the subs :wink:. The bottom line is that I like to listen at levels that are well below the point where I hear those issues.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 7 Jul 2021, 12:52 pm
Here are more charts from my measurements.

I believe that the low frequency information in the waterfall charts is from road noise, A/C, PC fan, and other ambient noise. 

Left channel without sub.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226570)

Left channel with sub.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226568)

Right channel without sub.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226571)

Right channel with sub.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226569)

Left channel impulse chart.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226572)

Right channel impulse chart.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226573)

You can view the charts in my gallery to see them more clearly.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 7 Jul 2021, 01:31 pm
Rock,

There is some work to be done but you are off to a good start. Where you place treatments and what kinds of treatments you use in your room as it pertains to the dispersion of your speaker can be interpreted through REW, provided you measure properly!

Recommend you read this:

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/acoustic_measurement_standards.pdf

If you use a laptop on battery, you can eliminate what you feel are “sources of noise” in your measurement. And of course you can measure with the HVAC off as well.

There are specific sections on interpretation of spectrograms, impulse data for reflection points etc…, in the latest guide, download is here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/51jpnxet3bvew2k/REW%20101%20HTS%20Current%20Version.pdf?dl=1

Good luck!

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: Rock Ball on 7 Jul 2021, 01:53 pm
Thanks Anand!

That is extremely helpful information.  I will study those docs.
Title: Re: Rock Ball's NX-Tremes build
Post by: EdwardT on 7 Jul 2021, 07:05 pm
Everything about this, the build and the room, is very impressive and wonderful.