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Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Tyson on 27 Dec 2019, 01:13 am

Title: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 27 Dec 2019, 01:13 am
So it begins...


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202495)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202496)




(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202497)

Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 27 Dec 2019, 03:53 am
Subscribed  :green:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Nick77 on 27 Dec 2019, 08:13 am
Details....... Details........    :popcorn:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 27 Dec 2019, 04:57 pm
But first, we listen!  Here I've put my stock Forte IIIs into Danny's system.  We're using my First Watt amp since I want to get it closer to what I use/hear at home:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202519)



I'll say this - the Forte III is definitely the best sounding speaker in the entire Klipsch lineup, IMO.  Putting them into Danny's system showed that they sound better than the measurements taking at Stereophile would indicate.  In fact, they sounded pretty good!  There were a few odd things where they fell apart or got boomy or got harsh, but those were passing moments for the most part.  So, right off the bat, it's clear this speaker "has good bones", and is going to be a good platform to do some upgrades on. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 27 Dec 2019, 06:38 pm
Just to give an idea of the size/scale of the Forte's vs Danny's other speakers:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202524)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: dburna on 27 Dec 2019, 06:42 pm
Just to give an idea of the size/scale of the Forte's vs Danny's other speakers:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202524)

What are the speakers in the picture just to the right of the Fortes (monitors on the floor)?

Thanks, -dGB
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Nick77 on 27 Dec 2019, 07:28 pm
I didnt know Danny still had a pair of Line Source??  :scratch:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 27 Dec 2019, 07:31 pm
What are the speakers in the picture just to the right of the Fortes (monitors on the floor)?

Thanks, -dGB

Looks like the studio monitors from this thread.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163940.0
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Early B. on 27 Dec 2019, 07:37 pm
Tyson, you gonna do an external crossover?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Shakeydeal on 27 Dec 2019, 08:20 pm
As good as the forte III is, and it is very good. It’s still not in the league of the mighty klipschorn. Not really much of a debate actually.

Shakey
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 27 Dec 2019, 08:21 pm
Tyson, you gonna do an external crossover?

We'll do the crossovers external in the beginning in order to do comparisons, so the crossovers will sit on the floor & we'll swap between them in real time.  After that, the new crossovers will be put into the speaker. 

Part of the reason is the new crossover is massive - very heavy and will add some much needed mass to the bottom of the speaker.  I suppose I could brace the bottom but I like the elegance of using the crossover itself as a mass loading resonance control.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Nick77 on 27 Dec 2019, 08:34 pm
We'll do the crossovers external in the beginning in order to do comparisons, so the crossovers will sit on the floor & we'll swap between them in real time.  After that, the new crossovers will be put into the speaker. 

Part of the reason is the new crossover is massive - very heavy and will add some much needed mass to the bottom of the speaker.  I suppose I could brace the bottom but I like the elegance of using the crossover itself as a mass loading resonance control.

Does that mean you will be using lots of copper?  :)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 27 Dec 2019, 08:39 pm
Next we measure!  Here's a picture of the setup.  Danny will post the graphs later, once we have the curves for both the old crossover and the new crossover.  For now, here's what the process looks like:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202529)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 27 Dec 2019, 09:29 pm
Does that mean you will be using lots of copper?  :)

Yes, and silver.  I have some pure silver wiring I'm going to use on the woofers, and some OCC copper wiring for the mids/tweeters.  There will also definitely be some Miflex caps in there somewhere :P
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: billion$baby on 27 Dec 2019, 09:34 pm
Forte III cant touch the Cornwall IV's either and I own the Forte's. First person Ive ever heard say the Forte's were BEST of the Heritage line. Blasphemy!!  :)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 27 Dec 2019, 09:36 pm
Yes, and silver.  I have some pure silver wiring I'm going to use on the woofers, and some OCC copper wiring for the mids/tweeters.  There will also definitely be some Miflex caps in there somewhere :P

What gauge of wire are you going to be using? Can you say where you got your OCC copper wire from?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: SoCalWJS on 27 Dec 2019, 09:41 pm
 :popcorn:

This looks like it’s going to be great fun! Wonderful opportunity to learn a few things.

Hope all goes well and a blast is had by everybody.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 27 Dec 2019, 09:43 pm
What gauge of wire are you going to be using? Can you say where you got your OCC copper wire from?

The silver wire is 14ga I believe.  I bought it a long time ago from a company that's no longer in business, and I just happened to find it in my closet of unused audio stuff.  For copper, I used to use the Neotech copper/teflon because it was amazing.  But I found something even better, the Unicrystal which is OCC copper with foamed teflon from VH Audio:

https://www.vhaudio.com/unicrystal-occ-copper-wire.html

I have 18ga, so I'll twist 2 together for the mids to give me 15ga total.  For the highs, I'll just use the single 18ga. 

When I get home, I also have some Neotech Silver/Gold wire that I might experiment with for the tweeter.

Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: witchdoctor on 27 Dec 2019, 10:10 pm
Will you be using isolation stands or footers under the forte's?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 27 Dec 2019, 10:11 pm
Will you be using isolation stands or footers under the forte's?

Nope.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 28 Dec 2019, 12:02 am
Tyson, you gonna do an external crossover?
+1 Nice
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 28 Dec 2019, 01:13 am
Time to start pulling things apart:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202532)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202533)



(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202534)


The good news is that they used 3/4th MDF for the cabinet, the bad news is that there's zero bracing inside.  So, out come all the drivers and time to start making braces. 


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202536)

Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: ebag4 on 28 Dec 2019, 01:52 am
Fun project Tyson.  Are those woofers typically running bipole or dipole?  Seems that might be a choice given the binding post layout although changing one to the other would greatly change the apparent cabinet volume the woofers would see as well as the speaker impedance.  Seems odd so likely incorrect, please set me straight.

Thanks for sharing.

Best,
Ed

Never mind, I see that the rear unit is a passive radiator.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 28 Dec 2019, 02:07 am
Tyson-Danny

Any thoughts on the diffraction of the front baffle? I notice your F3’s has a lip around the edge where the grills go but it is not as demonstrative as mine. Part of my mod is trimming off that lip from the sides and top/bottom but my cabinets are not veneered like yours. Just wondering if that is something you’ve considered or not and if it shows up on measurements.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Early B. on 28 Dec 2019, 02:22 am
Can you show us a pic of the stock crossover?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 28 Dec 2019, 02:26 am
Tyson,

Subscribed  :popcorn:

I am a little shocked  :o to see a $3998/pair speaker without bracing though. Looks like a Duratex like finish on the front/rear baffles with a veneer wrap around. Good thing you are showing these things systematically, thanks!

Can't wait for pics of the stock crossover.

Tomy2Tone,

Addressing the limitations of the front baffle would be great to see but might prove expensive to implement short of a complete rebuild of the front baffle. Still the contours from the horn design of tweeter and midrange seem smooth here. I wonder what material the horns themselves are built out of, and concerns with regards to 'ringing.'

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 28 Dec 2019, 02:31 am
I am a little shocked  :o to see a $3998/pair speaker without bracing though.
And the woofers
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Early B. on 28 Dec 2019, 02:40 am
Surely, y'all didn't expect to see high quality from Klipsch, regardless of price. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 28 Dec 2019, 02:45 am
Tyson-Danny

Any thoughts on the diffraction of the front baffle? I notice your F3’s has a lip around the edge where the grills go but it is not as demonstrative as mine. Part of my mod is trimming off that lip from the sides and top/bottom but my cabinets are not veneered like yours. Just wondering if that is something you’ve considered or not and if it shows up on measurements.

The horns seem to be directional enough that it doesn't affect the sound. 

Can you show us a pic of the stock crossover?

Yep, it's coming tomorrow. 

Tyson,
Subscribed  :popcorn:
I am a little shocked  :o to see a $3998/pair speaker without bracing though. Looks like a Duratex like finish on the front/rear baffles with a veneer wrap around. Good thing you are showing these things systematically, thanks!

Oh, there's bracing now.  We braced the hell out of them, haha.  I'll post some pics tomorrow and also we've lined them with norez.  There also wasn't any acoustic stuffing, so that's going in there too.  Parts quality on the crossover leaves a bit to be desired.  I'll post more tomorrow on the crossover stuff.

Also, the horns are made of plastic.  I'm going to damp them down too.  The woofer frames are thin and resonant as well, all of it's getting damped....
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 28 Dec 2019, 03:01 am
Can you show us a pic of the stock crossover?

If I'm not mistaken, this is it, courtesy of Maty of course (our resident audio researcher):

(https://i0.wp.com/blog.son-video.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/test-klipsch-forte-iii-008.jpg)


Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Early B. on 28 Dec 2019, 03:18 am
OK, I gotta ask -- are these speakers worth upgrading?

At this price point, there's a ton of speakers available with much higher quality parts that are better candidates to upgrade for a lot less coin and a lot less work. Danny's gonna work his magic, but a killer crossover can't fix cheap drivers.

If you're doing it for the thrill of it or for learning purposes or for nostalgic reasons, that's OK. Just askin'. 



Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Jmitchell3 on 28 Dec 2019, 03:22 am
OK, I gotta ask -- are these speakers worth upgrading?

At this price point, there's a ton of speakers available with much higher quality parts that are better candidates to upgrade for a lot less coin and a lot less work. Danny's gonna work his magic, but a killer crossover can't fix cheap drivers.

If you're doing it for the thrill of it or for learning purposes or for nostalgic reasons, that's OK. Just askin'.

We can’t argue price or value. We do what we do for the adventure and the experience. We can make economic choices along the way but nothing is “worth it” and most upgrades have a diminishing price / performance ratio.

There’s something tho that is intriguing about taking something lauded as good and making it better. Making it something special. At the end of the day it’s about what we can experience and how we can share that uniqueness with others.

IMHO.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 28 Dec 2019, 04:19 am
OK, I gotta ask -- are these speakers worth upgrading?

At this price point, there's a ton of speakers available with much higher quality parts that are better candidates to upgrade for a lot less coin and a lot less work. Danny's gonna work his magic, but a killer crossover can't fix cheap drivers.

If you're doing it for the thrill of it or for learning purposes or for nostalgic reasons, that's OK. Just askin'. 

Here’s the thing - even with all these issues, the stock speakers sound pretty good.  Look, I rarely like how a speaker sounds.  And even less often do I like it enough to consider buying it.  The basic Forte III is really good from a sound quality standpoint.  If I weren’t recently divorced and trying to kill time on my first Christmas alone, I probably would not have made the trip.  But I am and I did.  And I’m super glad I did, hanging with Danny has been a blast.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 28 Dec 2019, 04:42 am
I think it does say something that as someone who is able to attend RMAF almost every year like Tyson and hear all sorts of speakers across a variety of styles and technologies he chose these Klipsch. I know I never thought I would enjoy Klipsch as much as I am now but thanks to listening to some Heresy III’s my mind was changed.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: witchdoctor on 28 Dec 2019, 06:14 am
OK, I gotta ask -- are these speakers worth upgrading?

At this price point, there's a ton of speakers available with much higher quality parts that are better candidates to upgrade for a lot less coin and a lot less work. Danny's gonna work his magic, but a killer crossover can't fix cheap drivers.

If you're doing it for the thrill of it or for learning purposes or for nostalgic reasons, that's OK. Just askin'.

Uhhhh don't you think it might be better until after the upgrades are finished before asking that question?

Phil Wright from Darko has this to say about the stock Forte III:
"The Forte III is a big and beautiful loudspeaker, both visually and sonically, presenting music in a way that’s utterly enthralling."

https://darko.audio/2019/05/the-big-beautiful-klipsch-forte-iii/
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 28 Dec 2019, 07:16 am
OK, I gotta ask -- are these speakers worth upgrading?

At this price point, there's a ton of speakers available with much higher quality parts that are better candidates to upgrade for a lot less coin and a lot less work. Danny's gonna work his magic, but a killer crossover can't fix cheap drivers.

If you're doing it for the thrill of it or for learning purposes or for nostalgic reasons, that's OK. Just askin'.
If the cabinet are solidly made it worth upgrade the woofer to a Eminence alu basket and Neodymium. I sure Anthony from tech support may suggest something nice.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 28 Dec 2019, 08:32 am
Also, the horns are made of plastic.  I'm going to damp them down too.  The woofer frames are thin and resonant as well, all of it's getting damped....

Good decision.

I guess Danny will measure the speakers. Based on the measurements and his advice decides if you change the woofers, not before, my two cents.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 28 Dec 2019, 08:57 am
Review: Klipsch Forte III by Tristan Jacquel - 25 August 2017

https://blog.son-video.com/en/2017/08/review-klipsch-forte-iii/

Only $ 4,000 and...

Crossover

[Big IMG, link] https://i0.wp.com/blog.son-video.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/test-klipsch-forte-iii-008.jpg

Speaker connectors

[Big IMG, link] https://i1.wp.com/blog.son-video.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/test-klipsch-forte-iii-001.jpg

The CSD :?

https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-forte-iii-loudspeaker-measurements

I think Danny Richie will make it no few modifications!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 28 Dec 2019, 09:05 am
Klipsch Forte III Review by Francisco Licon - July 31, 2019

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/klipsch-forte-iii-review/

Optimized pictures:

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Klipsch-Forte-III-fig-12-forte-1khz-new.png)

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Klipsch-Forte-III-fig-15-forte-1khz-new.png)

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Klipsch-Forte-III-fig-20-forte-1khz-new.png)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 28 Dec 2019, 10:05 am
Deleted at Tyson's request.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Early B. on 28 Dec 2019, 11:40 am
Uhhhh don't you think it might be better until after the upgrades are finished before asking that question?

No. The question was more about his motivation. As Tyson indicated, killing time during Christmas to hang out with Danny is a sufficient reason, IMO.   
 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 28 Dec 2019, 04:27 pm
Maty and fullrangeman, we are definitely not changing drivers, because then it wouldn't be a Klipsch speaker anymore.  Please remove your posts on other drivers, they are distracting - thanks!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Beatlebum on 28 Dec 2019, 04:38 pm
Following and reading with great interest. I have both Forte III's as well as 1990 Chorus II's with updated Crites crossovers and titanium diaphragms in both the tweeters and midrange horns. By far the Chorus II's are my favorite speakers owned to date.

Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Mr Rick on 28 Dec 2019, 04:45 pm
Here’s the thing - even with all these issues, the stock speakers sound pretty good.  Look, I rarely like how a speaker sounds.  And even less often do I like it enough to consider buying it.  The basic Forte III is really good from a sound quality standpoint.  If I weren’t recently divorced and trying to kill time on my first Christmas alone, I probably would not have made the trip.  But I am and I did.  And I’m super glad I did, hanging with Danny has been a blast.

By coincidence, last evening I was reading a speaker review in a back issue of Stereophile. The speakers were made by a well known French company.

It was noted that though the speakers were floor standing, with four drivers, they only weighed 48 pounds each. This was found to be ' by design' as the speakers had little damping, and no bracing, as these things effect sensitivity.

In the review the sound was described as spectacularly dynamic, with outstanding resolution. It was mentioned that the speakers could reproduce the smallest of details, and that the speed was breathtaking. In fact, it was said that the speakers had the speed and dynamics of a good horn speaker.

As others, I'll be following this upgrade closely. In the final analysis, only your ears will tell you if the upgrade makes the speakers ' better ', or merely different. I hope you don't lose any of those elements that make a Klipsch a Klipsch.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: nickd on 28 Dec 2019, 05:48 pm
I’m neutral on cabinet bracing on high sensitivity horns like the Klipsch and Altec’s. I’m not going to try and build a pair DYI. I think it takes a bit of real engineering to make it work properly. I don’t think it’s a cost saving shortcut. They do it on purpose. It can make killer bass with the right drivers and crossover.

That said, I’m very curious about how these come out with Danny’s magic in the crossover. It really is the heart of a speaker. As good as the Klipsch team is, there is always room for improvement. Danny has some really good instincts on filters and great parts are an easy improvement from the cheap stuff big factory’s use.

I have been lusting after a pair of Volti Rivals for some time. I’m thinking these will compete once the upgrades are complete.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: charmerci on 28 Dec 2019, 06:07 pm
Having dampened a couple of cheaper speakers, I can confidently say that - at higher volumes - cabinet vibrations definitely do muddy up the sound. (It's just basic physics.) An inert cabinet is an expensive thing to make and is often not done for the expense because it would move the speaker up to a much higher price point. Plus, it generally adds much weight (shipping expense) to the speaker.


I'm an avid fan of speaker dampening - and wish others were too.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 28 Dec 2019, 06:13 pm
Cutting the braces.  We did it differently than I thought we would.  My idea was just to get some oak dowels and glue them lenghthwise and crosswise, flat against each interior panel.  But Danny explained that while it would make the cabinet stiffer, it would also eat up airspace.  A better way for our purposes is to cut small diagonal braces and make triangle braces at key locations.  I also would have put the braces closer to the middle but Danny showed me that putting them at the 1/3rd point instead of the 1/2 point actually does a better job reducing resonance and increasing cabinet stiffness. 

Cutting the braces:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202537)


Started adding the braces:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202562)


Braces are all in and Norez installed too:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202563)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Mr Rick on 28 Dec 2019, 06:21 pm
Having dampened a couple of cheaper speakers, I can confidently say that - at higher volumes - cabinet vibrations definitely do muddy up the sound. (It's just basic physics.) An inert cabinet is an expensive thing to make and is often not done for the expense because it would move the speaker up to a much higher price point. Plus, it generally adds much weight (shipping expense) to the speaker.


I'm an avid fan of speaker dampening - and wish others were too.
Quote

But there are speakers specifically designed to have a lively cabinet and are renowned for their sound. Harbeth comes to mind. It is said such speakers were designed as instruments with the sound of the cabinet playing an integral part in the sound.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 28 Dec 2019, 06:23 pm
Re: cabinet bracing's effect on the sound - no need to speculate as we'll find out from listening, soon enough.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maxima95 on 28 Dec 2019, 06:56 pm
Absolutely; the proof is in the listening.

While a lot of speakers could use some bracing (and damping), I always wonder about how the added bracing may alter (reduce) the internal volume. 

In the picture with the table saw, I can't tell the size of the braces (the lens appears to make them look bigger than they are.) It looks like the pile adds up to, at least, approx. 1 foot of cubic volume.

That aside, following with interest on how they will sound.

Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: charmerci on 28 Dec 2019, 07:26 pm

But there are speakers specifically designed to have a lively cabinet and are renowned for their sound. Harbeth comes to mind. It is said such speakers were designed as instruments with the sound of the cabinet playing an integral part in the sound.


Hmmm, how does the cabinet know how to resonant to the sound of a trumpet or an upright bass?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Mr Rick on 28 Dec 2019, 07:35 pm

Hmmm, how does the cabinet know how to resonant to the sound of a trumpet or an upright bass?

Ha, therein lies the magic of speaker design.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: witchdoctor on 28 Dec 2019, 07:53 pm
Thanks for posting the pics, it looks like a LOT of fun. In the future I am sure it will be just as fun  recounting your modding efforts when guests come over for a listen.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 28 Dec 2019, 08:04 pm
Absolutely; the proof is in the listening.

While a lot of speakers could use some bracing (and damping), I always wonder about how the added bracing may alter (reduce) the internal volume. 

In the picture with the table saw, I can't tell the size of the braces (the lens appears to make them look bigger than they are.) It looks like the pile adds up to, at least, approx. 1 foot of cubic volume.

That aside, following with interest on how they will sound.



That pile was for both speakers, and they were all angle cut.  The pics definitely make them look a lot bigger than they are in life. 

Crossover is still being worked out, but I'll say this - the cabinets are a lot more inert now than they were before we started.  I have a suspicion that it will help with one of the issues we noted yesterday:  When pushed, they get a bit muddy with the stock cabinet. 

Now, you might say "I have them and they don't sound muddy to me!".  Which is valid.  But we're also comparing them to cost no object open baffle designs that have zero bloat or muddiness.  So the standards are rather high.   
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: rollo on 28 Dec 2019, 08:51 pm
  Looks like a fun project to me. Thanks for photos. Is it possible to listen with original crossover and wiring first to find out results of enclosure treatment ? We could learn how important each improvement gives. The bracing and No-Rez end result is interesting in itself. Would not after measurements of such in determining the crossover mod ?


charles
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Early B. on 28 Dec 2019, 08:56 pm
I'm gonna take a wild guess -- when it's done, Tyson is gonna report that these speakers sound far superior to stock, but they won't sound quite like Klipsch anymore. The magic will be gone, but a new appreciation will emerge. And then, because he learned so much from his experience with Danny, he's gonna seek to build the ultimate DIY speaker in 2020 that will supersede his Super 7's. Hint: it will have a helluva horn tweeter with repurposed Neo10's and 8" mid-bass drivers with copper nipples crossed over at 50Hz to triple OB servo subs up front and duals in the rear.

   
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Early B. on 28 Dec 2019, 08:58 pm
The bracing and No-Rez end result is interesting in itself. Would not after measurements of such in determining the crossover mod ?

Good point. That's probably why they haven't worked out the new crossover yet.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Mr Rick on 28 Dec 2019, 09:02 pm
Something like the horn system on Steve Guttenberg's channel?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: charmerci on 28 Dec 2019, 09:03 pm
Hmmm.... There seems to be quite a bit of magic being used in speaker design. How much is the magic fairy dust and where can I get some? lol
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: WGH on 28 Dec 2019, 10:03 pm
In 1991, I bought a new pair of Klipsch Quartet speakers for $844.50 each and put them in my woodshop. The Quartet's were driven to outrageous levels with an Adcom GTP400 and GFA 535 combo, my neighbor said he really liked my music.

Whenever I upgraded my home electronics the old stuff went into the woodshop, which was when I noticed the Klipsch magic disappearing even though the 'new' electronics was more precise with more power. The new electronics were revealing the flaws in the Klipsch crossover hidden by the sweet sounding Adcom GFA 535.

I solved the problem by moving my JBL L100's into the shop, they rocked even harder than the Klipsch's.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 28 Dec 2019, 10:25 pm
  Looks like a fun project to me. Thanks for photos. Is it possible to listen with original crossover and wiring first to find out results of enclosure treatment ? We could learn how important each improvement gives. The bracing and No-Rez end result is interesting in itself. Would not after measurements of such in determining the crossover mod ?
charles

Yep, we're going to have the original crossover and the new crossover sitting on the floor behind the speakers - we'll be able to swap back and forth in real time.  We'll start with the stock crossover so we can hear how it sounds vs what we heard yesterday, that will tell us how much the wiring, bracing, and Norez changes had on the speakers.

After that, we'll go back and forth between the 2 crossovers & see what differences that brings to the table.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: veloceleste on 28 Dec 2019, 10:28 pm
Following and reading with great interest. I have both Forte III's as well as 1990 Chorus II's with updated Crites crossovers and titanium diaphragms in both the tweeters and midrange horns. By far the Chorus II's are my favorite speakers owned to date.
I'll also be following. Years ago I went through a Klipsch phase and had Forte I and II, both stock and modified, and stock Chorus II which were one of my favorite speakers I ever owned. Last year I came back to Klipsch and bought a pair of Forte III that got me thinking about the Chorus again. I found a pair of Chorus II which I refreshed with Crites crossovers and titanium tweeter diagrams.  I like the Chorus II better than the Forte III so I sold the Forte III. This time the Chorus II are here to stay!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Jmitchell3 on 28 Dec 2019, 11:06 pm
Absolutely; the proof is in the listening.

While a lot of speakers could use some bracing (and damping), I always wonder about how the added bracing may alter (reduce) the internal volume. 

In the picture with the table saw, I can't tell the size of the braces (the lens appears to make them look bigger than they are.) It looks like the pile adds up to, at least, approx. 1 foot of cubic volume.

That aside, following with interest on how they will sound.

Probably for both speakers, so maybe half a foot per speaker?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: ntjetsmoke on 28 Dec 2019, 11:19 pm
Yep, we're going to have the original crossover and the new crossover sitting on the floor behind the speakers - we'll be able to swap back and forth in real time.  We'll start with the stock crossover so we can hear how it sounds vs what we heard yesterday, that will tell us how much the wiring, bracing, and Norez changes had on the speakers.

After that, we'll go back and forth between the 2 crossovers & see what differences that brings to the table.
I had Danny design a new crossover for a pair of Tekton Lore speakers. I also added Norez, new internal wiring and tube connectors on the speaker wiring. I am not sure which of the components was responsible for the largest amount of improvement. Combined these upgrades made this a very worth while effort.





Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Jon L on 29 Dec 2019, 04:08 am
I'm gonna take a wild guess -- when it's done, Tyson is gonna report that these speakers sound far superior to stock, but they won't sound quite like Klipsch anymore. The magic will be gone, but a new appreciation will emerge. And then, because he learned so much from his experience with Danny, he's gonna seek to build the ultimate DIY speaker in 2020 that will supersede his Super 7's. Hint: it will have a helluva horn tweeter with repurposed Neo10's and 8" mid-bass drivers with copper nipples crossed over at 50Hz to triple OB servo subs up front and duals in the rear.

My guess would be similar  :thumb:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 29 Dec 2019, 07:48 am
Yep, we're going to have the original crossover and the new crossover sitting on the floor behind the speakers - we'll be able to swap back and forth in real time.  We'll start with the stock crossover so we can hear how it sounds vs what we heard yesterday, that will tell us how much the wiring, bracing, and Norez changes had on the speakers.

After that, we'll go back and forth between the 2 crossovers & see what differences that brings to the table.

I like it! You know, step by step to verify the changes.

With crossover finished is easy: first one loudspeaker and you can compare with the other (old crossover), changing the channel too. If the difference is overwhelming, it must also be noted, as it happened with my change of bypass capacitor and resistor in my small coaxials.

The improvement of the furniture will cause an appreciable sound change without a doubt (I hope for a better). We can see resonances:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-forte-iii-loudspeaker-measurements

(https://www.stereophile.com/images/719KF3-fig1.jpg)

What I would like you to verify specifically are the speaker connectors / binding pots, which would be my next improvement?

****** ******

Updated

https://www.google.com/search?q=Klipsch+Forte+III+Upgrade

This page is the first result.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 29 Dec 2019, 04:54 pm
Alright, now we're talking - the thin plastic midrange horn is now damped:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202596)




And a group shot of ALL the drivers damped:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202597)

Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: dflee on 29 Dec 2019, 06:13 pm
What would be the purpose of dampening the passive?
Just curious and not trying to start anything.

Don
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 29 Dec 2019, 06:19 pm
OK, moving on to the crossover!  Here's the stock crossover.  I'll say this right away - even though the parts are pretty cheap/budget level, the actual design of the crossover is pretty good, so kudos to the Klipsch engineers, what they did was well done. 

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202599)



And here's the new crossover, by itself and then next to the stock crossover:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202600)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202601)

I'll show the curves and plots later on this afternoon.  I'll say this, the new crossover is definitely a refinement over the original.  And parts quality is obviously better, as you can see. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 29 Dec 2019, 06:23 pm
What would be the purpose of dampening the passive?
Just curious and not trying to start anything.
Don

I'm only damping the steel frame, not the driver itself.  The frame is thin, resonant and acoustically reflective.  You can actually seem some of the acoustic energy "bounce back" in the spectral decay plots.  I don't think it was just the PR frame, I think it was all the drivers together cumulatively causing some internal reflections.  Those should be knocked out pretty nicely with the damping. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: dflee on 29 Dec 2019, 06:38 pm
Closer look says I'm an idiot.
Liked the Forte III when I heard it. Would love to hear yours.
Cary on (please).
As for the crossover, will it fit inside?

Don
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 29 Dec 2019, 07:25 pm
Closer look says I'm an idiot.
Liked the Forte III when I heard it. Would love to hear yours.
Cary on (please).
As for the crossover, will it fit inside?

Don

Yep, it'll fit nicely - we measured the inside bottom of the speaker precisely before we cut the new crossover board.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 29 Dec 2019, 07:34 pm
Horns: Have you thought about bypass capacitors?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 29 Dec 2019, 07:45 pm
Did you try any Miflex?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 29 Dec 2019, 07:52 pm
Did you try any Miflex?

Good idea - I almost forgot about the bypass caps - thanks for the reminder!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Early B. on 29 Dec 2019, 08:33 pm
Tyson -- is this new crossover one that Danny re-designed or did you upgrade the parts only?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 29 Dec 2019, 08:59 pm
Tyson -- is this new crossover one that Danny re-designed or did you upgrade the parts only?

Redesign from scratch.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Jmitchell3 on 29 Dec 2019, 09:54 pm
Is Danny gonna make this crossover available as an upgrade kit?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Nick77 on 29 Dec 2019, 09:54 pm
Redesign from scratch.
Soo how does it sound?   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Early B. on 29 Dec 2019, 11:42 pm
Redesign from scratch.

OK. I was expecting to see Miflex or Danny's copper caps and perhaps some foil coils. Will that be phase 2? 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 30 Dec 2019, 12:17 am
You need add mass to the horn, I thought you would use modeling clay like Klipsch custumers do.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRArg4FeCixAFF-2Dg56QySWmUE4-jW_guqE0CNA2fiFGiWYpVD&s)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 30 Dec 2019, 12:22 am
Some use rubber sheets
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=186243&size=large)
This used foam as you:
(https://community.klipsch.com/uploads/monthly_10_2013/post-49933-0-57440000-1383130878.jpg)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 30 Dec 2019, 01:19 am
Listening notes coming soon.  Grabbing dinner before final assembly and listening session.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 30 Dec 2019, 01:49 am
I agree with FullRangeMan. I don’t see how acoustic foam will dampen anything. Something like plumbers puddy or sound mat for cars. Regardless, good fun. Hope you guys record the sonic differences so others can hear.

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: genjamon on 30 Dec 2019, 02:17 am
Pretty sure that’s No Rez, which is foam mounted on a non-resonant hard base like Dynamat, etc. So, somewhat like you suggested, but with added ability to absorb mid-high freq acoustic energy in addition to unwanted physical vibrations. But I also wonder if putty would be a good idea in addition.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Peter J on 30 Dec 2019, 02:22 am
Fullrangeman and Rocket Ronny. There is a mineral filled mass layer between the PS adhesive and foam layer of No Rez, have you ever looked at it?  I'd agree the foam clods look kinda ragged and it doesn't have a lot visual appeal but it is inside a box, after all.

The  primary damping isn't being accomplished by the foam, but the mineral mass layer and foam does no harm.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 30 Dec 2019, 02:32 am
I do realize there is layer of dampening material but that is nothing compared to the higher mass solutions. It certainly is better than nothing. Who knows, it might have some other beneficial sonic results.  :popcorn:

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 30 Dec 2019, 02:38 am
Found a clay link from a old thread on TT damping:
https://www.allartsupplies.com/item.php?articleId=120

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=96356.msg963916#msg963916
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 30 Dec 2019, 04:08 am
Listening to the updated Forte's now with the upgraded crossovers and new wiring and bracing and norez and.... the bass.  omg, THE BASS!!!!@!

More notes later when we finish rocking out to AC/DC at ridiculous volumes.   :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 30 Dec 2019, 06:52 am
Other option, with bitumen rubber or equivalent. Whatever costs less or already has.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=166535.msg1769032#msg1769032

-> http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2012/08/waveguide-damping.html

(https://images.weserv.nl/?w=800&t=fit&url=4.bp.blogspot.com/-21dnipfiGuY/UCpPxc76XeI/AAAAAAAAByM/r3cPlEHmHrU/s1600/wg-2layers.jpg)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Rusty Jefferson on 30 Dec 2019, 01:37 pm
When you get to the measurements, please post a step response measurement with the others.

Nice way to spend a vacation btw. I'd like to visit Danny myself sometime.  :D
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Beatlebum on 30 Dec 2019, 03:25 pm
I'm eager to see your results while listening at lower volume levels. In my system, low level listening is where the Fortes shine for sure.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 30 Dec 2019, 03:34 pm
I'm eager to see your results while listening at lower volume levels. In my system, low level listening is where the Fortes shine for sure.

Because at higher volume -> furniture resonances will affect the final sound, I suppose.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 30 Dec 2019, 06:40 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202659)

OK, brass tacks time.  How does it sound?  After listening to a variety of music, at a variety of listening levels, there's some obvious differences.  We used music from hard rock like AC/DC, Queensryche, Pink Floyd, Roger Waters as well as softer fare like Jennifer Wells, Vienna Teng, Alison Krauss, etc.... we listened to a LOT of stuff. 

Stock Speaker Impressions
Before the changes, as I mentioned several times already, the stock Forte III was great.  In fact it was my favorite Klipsch speaker of all time.  Sure, it didn't go quite as loud/dynamic as the Cornwall or the Klipschorn, but on the other hand, it's a lot smoother than those speakers and more of a refined, audiophile presentation.  So for me the Forte was a first re: Klipsch - a speaker that could rock, but also a speaker that could play a string quartet, solo piano or a girl with a guitar well.

When we hooked them up to Danny's system, they sounded great on all the standard audiophile fare, which was surprising to Danny but less surprising to me as I'd lived with them for several months already.  There was a bit of aggressiveness to some of the vocals and a few of the guitars but overall it was quite nice. 

Then we put on some rock and they sounded great, again!  Kick drum, bass guitar, male vocals, all sounded good.  Except on one of the tracks from AC/DC, Hell's Bells - there was a weird thing that happened with the electric guitar - it shrank and sounded like it was coming from an AM radio.  Very odd.  And of course the speakers are generally so fast and clear that they just beg you to turn them up.  So we did.  But when we got it even to moderately loud levels, things got muddy. 


Short Summary of Changes Made
Based on the measurements, the crossover had to be re-designed from scratch as I mentioned before, but after the re-design, the small peak at 1khz was gone.  And after thoroughly bracing the cabinet, adding norez everywhere and putting fiberglass insulation at the top and bottom of each cabinet, we got an even cleaner spectral decay.  The low bass was now tuned to 40hz, perfect for my needs.  Re: part used, I decided to use Danny's capacitors and speaker wire for this upgrade so I could give impressions that would align with whatever kit will be made available. 



(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202660)

Upgraded Speaker Impressions
Even with zero burn in on the crossover it was immediately apparent that the changes made a big improvement.  Bigger than I thought they would.  Honestly I really liked the stock speaker and was just hoping for something 'somewhat better', that would have made me happy.  What I got was something a LOT better.

Putting on some hard rock, we noticed that the clean/fast/dynamic presentation they had before was even better.  Quite a bit better.  The sense of energy and engagement from the musicians just leapt out of the speakers.  Wow, that was amazing.  But what happens when we turn it up, what about that muddiness?  Well, over the next few songs we turned it up HELLA LOUD and no muddiness at all.  They were like these inert, still boxes unleashing holy hell and just didn't even blink.  That was a major, major improvement.  And the bass, ah, the bass was exactly what I wanted.  Deeper, more punchy, more detail, more energy, and clean as a whistle. And male vocals?  Oh man, there's just something special about a large paper woofer producing male vocals - there's a heft and authority to it that other types of drivers just can't really match. 

Back to some more sane level music and Jennifer Warnes, Vienna Teng, Alison Krauss - sweeter and more beautiful than I've ever heard through these speakers.  Compared to my $20k Super7 speakers in my main system in my dedicated listening room in my garden level basement, they didn't soundstage layer or have the uber finessed detail.  But the Forte's were a LOT closer to the Super7s now than they were before the mod.  Way more resolution and delicacy than before.  Based on the change in frequency response, I expected a smoother sound (which we got), but I didn't expect the increase in sheer resolution that we got.  The other thing I noticed was that the other members in the band all seemed to step up in personality and style.  In other words, they sounded less like a bunch of generic backing musicians and more like a BAND that had played together & knew each other well and played in a very individual way, but together, if that makes any sense. 

OK, so that's it for impressions.  Was it worth it?  Hell yeah.  It didn't fundamentally change the speaker, but it took what the Forte III was already good at and made it much better.  It didn't lose any of that "Klipsch Magic", in fact it seriously increased the Klipsch Magic. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 30 Dec 2019, 07:10 pm
Quote
OK, so that's it for impressions.  Was it worth it?  Hell yeah.  It didn't fundamentally change the speaker, but it took what the Forte III was already good at and made it much better.  It didn't lose any of that "Klipsch Magic", in fact it seriously increased the Klipsch Magic.

Very good news!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: spacedghost on 30 Dec 2019, 07:12 pm
Like baseball fantasy camp for audiophiles... what a cool way to spend a few days!

Enjoyed reading the journey

Shaun
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 30 Dec 2019, 07:36 pm
I have commented on the Klipsch modifications:

-> https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/345074-mdf-plywood-speaker-cabinets-post6026307.html
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Early B. on 30 Dec 2019, 08:42 pm
Cool!

Any idea of the greater impact coming from of the bracing/damping vs. the crossover mod?

I would imagine that the improvement in bass and your ability to turn it up without muddiness was largely due to the bracing??? And the improved detail would come primarily from the crossover???

How about selling a "Tyson Tighten Up Cabinet Kit" for the Forte?   
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: ntjetsmoke on 31 Dec 2019, 12:36 am
I discovered the Fortes III at RMAF two years back and was impressed. The favorable results of your upgrades give me some "Forte III lust". Glad to know youe happy with the upgrade!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: rollo on 31 Dec 2019, 01:05 am
   Cool outcome. More magic and NOT changing character is what a well designed crossover accomplishes. Nice work Danny. Tightening up the cab was well done as well.
   I can see a  DANTY mod kit coming.


charles
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: nickd on 31 Dec 2019, 01:43 am
Nice work Tyson (and of course Danny),
Just out of curiosity, do you see the biggest difference in your reference speakers being the dispersion pattern?

I would imagine the Klipsch compression drivers are fast. But horns you know. They just push the sound into the room quite differently. More like a wide beam that a diffuse figure 8 the the serenity 7’s produce.

I’m thinking the Forte III’s are more of a different flavor now with the mods than your reference. Maybe Steak vs Chicken.  I like both when spiced and cooked with a bit of flair. Suppose it depends on the mood.

I imagine AC/DC through the Forte’s might best the mighty 7’s but Allison Krause might fall behind in enjoyment do the advanced soundstage of your OB reference.

Thoughts on that?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 31 Dec 2019, 03:15 am
I'll just drop in here and post a before:

(http://gr-research.com/pics/Klipsch%20Forte%20Crossover%20response.jpg)

And after:

(http://gr-research.com/pics/new%20Klipsch%20forte%20crossover%20slopes.jpg)

On axis measurements.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: genjamon on 31 Dec 2019, 03:19 am
Thanks for the measurements, Danny.  Speaks volumes in combination with Tyson's comments.  I'm officially drooling.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 31 Dec 2019, 03:20 am
Hi,
Wonder if the woofer cut at about 500Hz are second order?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 31 Dec 2019, 03:57 am
Hi,
Wonder if the woofer cut at about 500Hz are second order?

No, it is steeper than that.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 31 Dec 2019, 04:02 am
Ok thanks Danny :thumb:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: schw06 on 31 Dec 2019, 12:17 pm
I’m so happy you guys took on this project. Despite the cheap crossovers and unbraced cabinets, I have absolutely enjoyed listening to music through my pair. For me there is an undeniable “rightness” to the Forte sound. I’m curious if you were testing them with tubes or ss amps and if the modifications made any change to push you in a direction to prefer one topology over the other?
David
P.S- count me in on a mod package if created
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 31 Dec 2019, 12:56 pm
Tyson are plenty of tube amps.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: borism on 31 Dec 2019, 01:34 pm
But first, we listen!  Here I've put my stock Forte IIIs into Danny's system.  We're using my First Watt amp since I want to get it closer to what I use/hear at home:

Seems like they are using Tyson's First Watt. Very interesting topic!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 31 Dec 2019, 01:47 pm
Seems like they are using Tyson's First Watt. Very interesting topic!

We played them with his 300B amp too.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 31 Dec 2019, 01:48 pm
I’m so happy you guys took on this project. Despite the cheap crossovers and unbraced cabinets, I have absolutely enjoyed listening to music through my pair. For me there is an undeniable “rightness” to the Forte sound. I’m curious if you were testing them with tubes or ss amps and if the modifications made any change to push you in a direction to prefer one topology over the other?
David
P.S- count me in on a mod package if created

I'll put an upgrade package together.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: billion$baby on 31 Dec 2019, 02:57 pm
I'll put an upgrade package together.

  That is AWESOME news. Can you recommend somebody that would do the upgrade work if possible. Not mechanically inclined or Brave enough to try doing that on my own. I think MANY people are in the same boat. Lots of money being left on the table in my opinion by somebody not offering this service for ALL the various speakers you have upgrade packages for. Thanks for sharing your talents and expertise.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: billion$baby on 31 Dec 2019, 03:42 pm
  There is a pretty well known Speaker restorer near me in Pennsylvania named Bill Legall (MillerSound). Going to pop over his house now to see if installing these kits is something he would do. The weight of working with some of these speakers might be an issue for him as I believe he is in his 70's. Will report back as it might be an option for those in the neighboring states.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 31 Dec 2019, 06:30 pm
Off topic

I had no idea about Tyson and his audio history before watching the video:

YouTube The Evolution of Hifi Reviews - featuring Tyson! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyiuQCD3sCA)

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/varios/Tyson-and-Danny-Richie-The%20Evolution-of-Hifi-Reviews-Tech-Talk-27.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/varios/Tyson-and-Danny-Richie-The%20Evolution-of-Hifi-Reviews-Tech-Talk-27.jpg)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 31 Dec 2019, 06:56 pm
That was a fun conversation :)  We also recorded another video where we talked just about the Forte III upgrade.  I'm guessing that'll come out next week?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: rollo on 31 Dec 2019, 07:07 pm
  Audiophile and Movie Star oh my !!!


charles
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 31 Dec 2019, 07:08 pm
That was a fun conversation :)  We also recorded another video where we talked just about the Forte III upgrade.  I'm guessing that'll come out next week?

Yeah, next week on the Forte III upgrade.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Early B. on 31 Dec 2019, 08:01 pm
I had no idea about Tyson and his audio history before watching the video:

YouTube The Evolution of Hifi Reviews - featuring Tyson! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyiuQCD3sCA)

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/varios/Tyson-and-Danny-Richie-The%20Evolution-of-Hifi-Reviews-Tech-Talk-27.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/varios/Tyson-and-Danny-Richie-The%20Evolution-of-Hifi-Reviews-Tech-Talk-27.jpg)

I'm a bit disappointed. I was expecting to see (Mike) Tyson.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 31 Dec 2019, 09:00 pm
I'm back home in Denver after driving all afternoon/night yesterday.  Of course I hooked my speakers up immediately even though it was midnight.  Listened for a while, then put on pink noise to burn them in a bit while I slept. 

Right now I'm listening to "For Those About to Rock" and I have to say that my neighbors probably hate Danny right now :P

Also, for anyone that gets the mod - during burn in the lower mids and bass start off sounding great, but then go through a phase where they sound downright muffled.  Don't worry, it's part of the burn in process and it clears up after 15 to 20 hours of use. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 31 Dec 2019, 10:26 pm

Right now I'm listening to "For Those About to Rock" and I have to say that my neighbors probably hate Danny right now :P


You can’t be an honest and true Klipsch owner unless you’re pissing off the neighbors!  :thumb:

Tyson/Danny- can you explain why a redo of the crossover was necessary? If it’s going to be in the video coming up next week I’ll look for it. I think for my speakers I’m going to try and replace the wiring and caps and see how that goes.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 31 Dec 2019, 11:29 pm
You can’t be an honest and true Klipsch owner unless you’re pissing off the neighbors!  :thumb:

Tyson/Danny- can you explain why a redo of the crossover was necessary? If it’s going to be in the video coming up next week I’ll look for it. I think for my speakers I’m going to try and replace the wiring and caps and see how that goes.

It raised the impedance a bit and smoothed it out.  And testing it on my 300b amp today bears it out - the amp is now happier feeding the Forte's from the 8ohm tap instead of the 4ohm tap I used to use.  Phase response is also somewhat better, and the midwoofer takes a bit more of the midrange information now and the tweeter plays a bit lower.  But the biggest thing I hear is that the moderate spittyness from the 1khz peak is gone.  I mean, the Forte's were smooth before, but now they are smooooooooootttthhhhhhh.  I'm listening to some Beethoven violin/piano sonatas right now and hearing the violin in particular is just a joy. 

Plus, we were going to replace ALL the parts anyway because the stock inductors are even worse than the stock caps, and the stock resistors are the worst of all the parts!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 1 Jan 2020, 12:15 am
Nice work Tyson (and of course Danny),
Just out of curiosity, do you see the biggest difference in your reference speakers being the dispersion pattern?

I would imagine the Klipsch compression drivers are fast. But horns you know. They just push the sound into the room quite differently. More like a wide beam that a diffuse figure 8 the the serenity 7’s produce.

I’m thinking the Forte III’s are more of a different flavor now with the mods than your reference. Maybe Steak vs Chicken.  I like both when spiced and cooked with a bit of flair. Suppose it depends on the mood.

I imagine AC/DC through the Forte’s might best the mighty 7’s but Allison Krause might fall behind in enjoyment do the advanced soundstage of your OB reference.

Thoughts on that?

Re: how the Forte and the Super 7s differ in their presentation, I think you're pretty close.  The Klipsch present the information in such a way that it feels very live.  Like you are at a musical performance with the best seats in the house.  The Super 7s on the other hand make it seem like you've been transported to the recording session, or more accurately, like the performers (and their acoustic space) have been transported to your living room.  I call the Super 7s my 'time machines' because they let me go back in time and witness the original even in a way that no other speaker can (that I've heard). 

After modding the Forte's, they are definitely more detailed than the stock version.  The Super 7s are way more holographic and just microscopes for everything on the recording.  The modded Forte's aren't quite at that level (especially in the top octave), but they are more punchy, giving the music a very nice "boogie factor" that is really appealing, across a variety of music styles. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 1 Jan 2020, 01:53 am
Hi Tyson.

You mentioned you felt the Super V was too rough and that the P Audio driver did not match the bass. Can you elaborate more on what you mean and how the Serenity was better that way.

Myself, I am not bothered by the integration. I posted samples of some songs from the Super V in my room. For me, it's draw dropping at times. Here is the sample link.
 
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=167098.msg1774033#new

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 1 Jan 2020, 02:04 am
Hi Tyson.

You mentioned you felt the Super V was too rough and that the P Audio driver did not match the bass. Can you elaborate more on what you mean and how the Serenity was better that way.

Myself, I am not bothered by the integration. I posted samples of some songs from the Super V in my room. For me, it's draw dropping at times. Here is the sample link.
 
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=167098.msg1774033#new

Rocket Ronny

I've heard that speaker a bunch.  All I can say is that I'm really sensitive to any unevenness in the 900 to 3khz range.  Other people might not be, which would make the Super V a fine choice.  But the reason I like the Super 7 so much is because it's absolutely perfect transitioning from the Neo10 to the Neo3 and each driver is incredibly linear on it's own.  So you end up with silky smooth and hyper detailed, the best of both worlds, with the Super 7. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Jaytor on 1 Jan 2020, 02:07 am
Hi Tyson -

Did you have a chance to listen to Danny's new Line Force? If so, how does this compare with your Super-7's?

Thanks,
Jay
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 1 Jan 2020, 03:23 am
Hi Tyson -

Did you have a chance to listen to Danny's new Line Force? If so, how does this compare with your Super-7's?

Thanks,
Jay

Line Force is better than the Super 7 in every single way.  That is an astonishingly great speaker. 

I plan to do a full writeup of all the speakers I got to hear at Danny's this past week.  It might be a few days before I get to it though.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 1 Jan 2020, 04:21 am
Thanks for sharing about the Super V. That issue does not bother me. This illustrates the need to have some sort of digital e.q. In a system. People will keep speakers a lot longer. Myself I use the e.q. in I-Tunes.

I think the Super V is a great speaker that straddles your Klipsch and the Serenities. 

Would you say the Line Force is as detailed and Transparent as the best electrostatics you have heard?

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 1 Jan 2020, 04:26 am
Would you say the Line Force is as detailed and Transparent as the best electrostatics you have heard?

Rocket Ronny

Better.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 1 Jan 2020, 04:49 am
Find that hard to believe due to the higher mass of the drivers. But will take your word on it. I can see them being way more dynamic for sure, and let’s not even talk efficiency, no contest at 98 dB. Thanks

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: ebag4 on 1 Jan 2020, 04:57 am
Find that hard to believe due to the higher mass of the drivers. But will take your word on it. I can see them being way more dynamic for sure, and let’s not even talk efficiency, no contest at 98 dB. Thanks

Rocket Ronny
2 ribbons vs 22 individual drivers...  makes sense to me.

Happy new year to all!!

Best
Ed
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 1 Jan 2020, 05:05 am
Find that hard to believe due to the higher mass of the drivers. But will take your word on it. I can see them being way more dynamic for sure, and let’s not even talk efficiency, no contest at 98 dB. Thanks

Rocket Ronny

I can only report what I heard.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 1 Jan 2020, 09:44 am
Plus, we were going to replace ALL the parts anyway because the stock inductors are even worse than the stock caps, and the stock resistors are the worst of all the parts!

The issue of core inductors is well known and the explanation too, so no surprise.

As for the capacitors, it is understandable that the use of electrolytics is avoided, especially at high frequencies (tweeter). Now, it is assumed that others should not cause so many differences, and more one bypass (Miflex KPCU-01) with the other stock cap!!!

The resistors, it is assumed that the ceramics are of low inductance, however their change by Mills MRA also generates a very appreciable difference. Either they are very bad, the usual ones are very bad or ... I can hardly believe that the lowest thermal noise and inductance are the cause of the big difference. Maybe it changes the harmonic profile too.

When you put the bypass caps tell us what differences you appreciate.

And the binding pots too. Do you keep the originals and thus be able to compare quickly?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 1 Jan 2020, 09:52 am
Writing about inductors...

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/346817-10f-rs225-fast-speaker-xo-pcb-gb-post6028018.html

by xrk971

Quote
I just re-ran the Xsim calculation of the frequency response with a 14ga flat copper foil 4mH Jantzen inductor with 0.6ohm DCR vs the 1.26ohm DCR of the 18ga wire inductor and see a mild improvement in the bass response - maybe 0.5dB at 50hz. It doesn't hurt. Otherwise, the phase and frequency response elsewhere comes out the same.

Subjectively, I would imagine a lower DCR will make the woofer sound more immediate and direct.

Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: RonP on 1 Jan 2020, 04:38 pm
Tyson,

your pics from Danny's place just make my wallet hurt  :D

Too many toys I see that I want.  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: ntjetsmoke on 1 Jan 2020, 06:48 pm
Tyson,

your pics from Danny's place just make my wallet hurt  :D

Too many toys I see that I want.  :icon_twisted:
I second that and feel the pain.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 1 Jan 2020, 06:53 pm
Line Force is better than the Super 7 in every single way.  That is an astonishingly great speaker. 

I plan to do a full writeup of all the speakers I got to hear at Danny's this past week.  It might be a few days before I get to it though.

Can’t wait to see what you have to say about all those speakers in Danny’s room. The one that tempts me the most to buy and try is the x-otica mtm so I’m curious to know what you think.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: fredgarvin on 1 Jan 2020, 07:11 pm
It raised the impedance a bit and smoothed it out.  And testing it on my 300b amp today bears it out - the amp is now happier feeding the Forte's from the 8ohm tap instead of the 4ohm tap I used to use.  Phase response is also somewhat better, and the midwoofer takes a bit more of the midrange information now and the tweeter plays a bit lower.  But the biggest thing I hear is that the moderate spittyness from the 1khz peak is gone.  I mean, the Forte's were smooth before, but now they are smooooooooootttthhhhhhh.  I'm listening to some Beethoven violin/piano sonatas right now and hearing the violin in particular is just a joy. 

Plus, we were going to replace ALL the parts anyway because the stock inductors are even worse than the stock caps, and the stock resistors are the worst of all the parts!

This is similar effect derived from the ALK designed XO for the Forte, not sure about the III, better phase response and impedance smoothing brings better performance from an amp. Not too much dough for a noticeable improvement. Good for you. I love my Quartets, they wooed me away from planars.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 1 Jan 2020, 07:20 pm
Tyson,

your pics from Danny's place just make my wallet hurt  :D

Too many toys I see that I want.  :icon_twisted:

Can’t wait to see what you have to say about all those speakers in Danny’s room. The one that tempts me the most to buy and try is the x-otica mtm so I’m curious to know what you think.

Well it turns out I have the day off today (company shutdown for the holidays), so I'll try to get everything written up today.  No one's done what I would call a proper review of many of these speakers, so that's what I'm going to do.  Each speaker will get an individual review where I compare it to all the other GR Research designs I've heard (including my Super 7s), and more generally other speakers in the same price/size class.  I can say this - some of the speakers really surprised me.  I'll give full details in the reviews.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: SlushPuppy on 2 Jan 2020, 01:43 am
Line Force is better than the Super 7 in every single way.  That is an astonishingly great speaker. 

I plan to do a full writeup of all the speakers I got to hear at Danny's this past week.  It might be a few days before I get to it though.

Tyson,

Cool thread. Looking forward to the reviews!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 2 Jan 2020, 08:24 pm
On thing I've noticed since putting the Forte's in my room - since they go down to 40hz strong now, it excites a room mode that it didn't before.  So I'm getting too much bass in the 40-60hz range.  Of course that's covered by the passive radiator on the back.  Solution?  Use something like silly putty and mass load the passive radiator so it's tuned a bit lower.  I added about a golfball size worth of putty and it shifted energy away from the 40-60hz range and down toward the 30hz range, which tightened up the in-room bass response nicely. 

One nice thing about my Super 7's in the basement is they are open baffle bass and you don't have to mess with this type of stuff.  I'd almost forgotten how nice that was :P
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: S Clark on 2 Jan 2020, 08:47 pm
Line Force is better than the Super 7 in every single way.  That is an astonishingly great speaker. 

I plan to do a full writeup of all the speakers I got to hear at Danny's this past week.  It might be a few days before I get to it though.
Yep.  After hearing the prototype I returned home to listen to my LS9s which are, like your 7's, great speakers.  They absolutely sounded slow. Slow!  The LS9's are some of the fastest speakers out there, but the Line Force is...... just the greatest speaker I've ever heard. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: RonP on 3 Jan 2020, 12:23 am
Hey Danny,

These are the 3x8" bass under the mini monitors, right?

(https://i.imgur.com/Hj39BxZ.jpg)

Are those servo 8"?


Edit: Sorry for off-topic. too many beers tonight
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 3 Jan 2020, 01:25 am
After messing with the mass loading of the woofers, I ended up with a bit more mass on the right speaker's PR and a bit less mass on the left speakers PR.  The right speaker is in a corner, the left speaker is not, this asymmetric loading of the passive radiators got the best results in my room.  Now the bass is deeeep while still remaining tight.  Before the mass loading it was a bit boomy due to the room modes. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Jan 2020, 02:24 am
Hey Danny,

These are the 3x8" bass under the mini monitors, right?

Are those servo 8"?

Edit: Sorry for off-topic. too many beers tonight

Yes they are.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: SET Man on 3 Jan 2020, 03:58 am
Hey!

  Man! That was one epic upgrade/mod there! Well, I'm sure having someone like Danny really helped with this.

  Anyway, I know that sometime more of better parts and etc doesn't always mean the result will be better. But good to see that you like the result here.

  By the way, to be able to fine tuning the bass with mass loading the passive radiators to fit your room is great! Enjoy!

Buddy
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 3 Jan 2020, 07:46 am
On thing I've noticed since putting the Forte's in my room - since they go down to 40hz strong now, it excites a room mode that it didn't before.  So I'm getting too much bass in the 40-60hz range.  Of course that's covered by the passive radiator on the back.  Solution?  Use something like silly putty and mass load the passive radiator so it's tuned a bit lower.  I added about a golfball size worth of putty and it shifted energy away from the 40-60hz range and down toward the 30hz range, which tightened up the in-room bass response nicely. 

Exactly where in the passive radiator? A picture...
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: guf on 3 Jan 2020, 03:32 pm
Wow this was a fun read and watch. I remember Danny saying years ago he wanted to get a hold of a pair of Hersey's and see what he could do with them. Knowing Tyson and his systems, and opinions I was excited to see the results.  I have owned more then 15 pairs of speakers from vendors on this forum and I never thought I'd own a pair of Klipsch out of principal. What principal?  I don't know.  :duh:  Since getting a pair a year ago I'm now on my third. No Forte III, yet. (I only tried them because a respected member here suggested how fun they were.) I have upgraded every component in them but still consider them a Klipsch. Glad a respected vendor, builder gave this a shot just to help the community. Thanks Tyson and Danny!

BTW the Klipsch forum is one of the most active and helpful audio forums I have been a part of....  And maybe the most biased. They are all so proud of Paul Klipsch and his speakers. Rightfully so. It seems like most of the elders in the audio community have had a pair at one time or another.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202784)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 3 Jan 2020, 05:29 pm
guf,

That modified Klipsch Belle has a nicely designed Eliptrac waveguide. I have looked at that upgrade quite a but when I considered Klipsch. Did you get the ALK (Al Klappenberger) designed crossover too? That fella is a true engineer and was the one who designed the crossovers for Volti Audio.

It would be great to listen to. Too bad your room is on the smaller side.

Best,
Anand
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 3 Jan 2020, 05:37 pm
Exactly where in the passive radiator? A picture...

I just stuck it on the middle of the PR.  I'll keep messing with it until I get it absolutely perfect.  Once I do, I'll unscrew the PR and put the it on the inside of the PR so it's not visible.  And I'll probably use something like plumbers caulk as silly putty has a tendency to drip, haha.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 3 Jan 2020, 05:55 pm
guf,
Agreed, they are great.  One thing I like about the Klipsch Heritage stuff is that they really are designed to sound best up against the wall.  Its clear to me now that they tune the baffle step compensation so it only locks in and sounds right when near a barrier of some kind.  So even though they are pretty large, they take up less floor space than a traditional audiophile speaker.

You lose soundstage depth by doing this, but since the horns aren't physically aligned, phase will never be perfect anyway.  So instead the speaker pushes the sound out into the room in an exciting and engaging way and that's a very smart tradeoff, IMO.  It's also one of the reasons Klipsch has the sound that i t does. 

The other thing is spectral decay.  On the Forte it was very good before the mods and now it's exceptional.  That level of cleanliness means you really do hear everything.  Couple that level of clean detail with the inherent liveliness of horns and you can see why people find the Klipsch sound so captivating.  Or at least I do!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: fredgarvin on 3 Jan 2020, 05:59 pm
I just stuck it on the middle of the PR.  I'll keep messing with it until I get it absolutely perfect.  Once I do, I'll unscrew the PR and put the it on the inside of the PR so it's not visible.  And I'll probably use something like plumbers caulk as silly putty has a tendency to drip, haha.
There's a well known guy at the Klipsch Forums, Moray James, that advocates 2.5 ounces to get the best result. That sounds like a starting point anyway.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 3 Jan 2020, 06:15 pm
There's a well known guy at the Klipsch Forums, Moray James, that advocates 2.5 ounces to get the best result. That sounds like a starting point anyway.

Thanks Fred!  Good to know I'm not alone in my craziness :)  I've got more than 2.5 oz on there now, but I think there's a couple of reasons for that - first, after stuffing the cabinet the new natural tuning frequency is 40hz, a bit lower than before.   In my room, 40hz is problematic so I've added enough mass to get down to 35hz and now I've added more and gotten it down to 30hz. 

I can say this - it works brilliantly.  The 40hz range tightens up and balances out nicely, and the 30hz stuff (when it hits) is STRONG.  Very nice.  The Forte III was moderately full range before, but is now an actual, true full range speaker, going down to 30hz with power. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: guf on 3 Jan 2020, 06:20 pm
guf,

That modified Klipsch Belle has a nicely designed Eliptrac waveguide. I have looked at that upgrade quite a but when I considered Klipsch. Did you get the ALK (Al Klappenberger) designed crossover too? That fella is a true engineer and was the one who designed the crossovers for Volti Audio.

It would be great to listen to. Too bad your room is on the smaller side.

Best,
Anand

thanks! yup ALK extreme crossovers. room is 13x19x10. Yeah not as big as all the Texas Klipsch guys but it works for me. Now if i can just get my bass tamed.  :roll: :x  my 2020 goals
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Paopawdecarabao on 3 Jan 2020, 11:27 pm
Hi,

First time poster here and member here. I forgot how I got to see this thread probably in SH forums but I am really a fan of the Forte III and would love to make the upgrades once Danny gets to sell the kit.

I'll be patiently following the thread. Thanks!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 4 Jan 2020, 09:55 am
Klipsch Forte III, phase and impedance

(https://www.stereophile.com/images/719KF3-fig1.jpg)

Quote
The minimum value is 3.65 ohms at 125Hz. However, the electrical phase angle (dotted trace) is sometimes extreme, and there is a current-hungry combination of 5 ohms and –49° phase angle at 90Hz. Despite its high sensitivity, the Forte III will work best with amplifiers that are comfortable driving 4-ohm loads.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 4 Jan 2020, 02:44 pm
Phase and Impedance are wild.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Jon L on 4 Jan 2020, 04:01 pm
That level of cleanliness means you really do hear everything.  Couple that level of clean detail with the inherent liveliness of horns and you can see why people find the Klipsch sound so captivating.  Or at least I do!

And the sad fact that vast majority of usual box speakers out there around that price range sound homogenized, boring, have low sensitivity, and sound dynamically dead... :o
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: fredgarvin on 4 Jan 2020, 04:50 pm
Thanks Fred!  Good to know I'm not alone in my craziness :)  I've got more than 2.5 oz on there now, but I think there's a couple of reasons for that - first, after stuffing the cabinet the new natural tuning frequency is 40hz, a bit lower than before.   In my room, 40hz is problematic so I've added enough mass to get down to 35hz and now I've added more and gotten it down to 30hz. 

I can say this - it works brilliantly.  The 40hz range tightens up and balances out nicely, and the 30hz stuff (when it hits) is STRONG.  Very nice.  The Forte III was moderately full range before, but is now an actual, true full range speaker, going down to 30hz with power.
That sounds like it sounds fantastic.  :thumb: Last night I cranked up my Quartets with Muse playing 'Uprising'. It's a thumper. I'l bet your new Forte's would pound.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: HAL on 4 Jan 2020, 05:31 pm
Deleted this comment.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 4 Jan 2020, 05:53 pm
Phase and Impedance are wild.

I wish Danny would post the new graphs, but maybe he's waiting till Tuesday when he posts our Tech Talk Tuesday video that's dedicated to the Forte III upgrade.  But just off memory I can say a few things. 

Phase with the new crossover is better than the old one.  But we discovered that phase will never be perfect because the midrange driver is physically located FAR back from the tweeter and from the bass woofer.  So perfect (or even good) phase is impossible.  You'd have to change the design of the box and the driver layout significantly in order to address phase.  But I think it's less of a problem in this design for reasons I'll get to in a second. 

Impedance definitely improves between the new crossover and also bracing/stuffing the cabinet.  The improvement doesn't radically change the nature of the speaker.  What I think it does is allow amps, especially tube amps, to sound more dynamic and lively.  Which is a very good thing. 

OK, back to phase and why it might not matter much in this design.  From listening to other speakers that have GREAT phase and this speaker that has not so great phase, the biggest thing you seem to lose is soundstage depth.  That sense of a large acoustic space being created behind the speaker is just not there.  But here's the thing - this speaker was designed to be placed against a wall or in a corner.  Specifically the baffle step response was tuned so it's depending upon a boundary to "fill in" the upper bass/lower mids.  So this speaker, when placed properly, will never be able to produce a deep soundstage anyway because of the wall. 

So you lose soundstage depth.  But if you look at the other major measurement, spectral decay, you see what you gain - ultra clean response and of course the horns themselves are very dynamic in a room.  The net result is you end up with a speaker that doesn't "recreate the original event" like my Super 7s can.  No, the Forte's create their own, new musical event by pushing the sound out toward you in a very exciting way.  Not sure if that makes any sense, but that's the best I can explain what I'm hearing.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: HAL on 4 Jan 2020, 06:07 pm
Exactly where in the passive radiator? A picture...
maty,
On the rear of the cabinet in the earlier pictures.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 4 Jan 2020, 06:08 pm
maty,
On the rear of the cabinet in the earlier pictures.

Yes, a passive radiator performs basically the same function that a port would - lower the bass response vs. using a sealed box.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 4 Jan 2020, 06:14 pm
Phase with the new crossover is better than the old one.  But we discovered that phase will never be perfect because the midrange driver is physically located FAR back from the tweeter and from the bass woofer.  So perfect (or even good) phase is impossible.  You'd have to change the design of the box and the driver layout significantly in order to address phase.  But I think it's less of a problem in this design for reasons I'll get to in a second...

Optmized and clarified (more the horns)

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Klipsch-Forte-III-optimized-picture.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Klipsch-Forte-III-optimized-picture.jpg)

[BIG IMG, link] https://images.crutchfieldonline.com/products/2017/20/714/g714FORTE3C-F.jpg
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 4 Jan 2020, 06:25 pm
...So you lose soundstage depth.  But if you look at the other major measurement, spectral decay, you see what you gain - ultra clean response and of course the horns themselves are very dynamic in a room.  The net result is you end up with a speaker that doesn't "recreate the original event" like my Super 7s can.  No, the Forte's create their own, new musical event by pushing the sound out toward you in a very exciting way.  Not sure if that makes any sense, but that's the best I can explain what I'm hearing.

One of the shortcomings of my little 5.25" coaxials of my second system is motivated by listening in the near field and close to rear wall (thanks to front bass-reflex) -> small depth. That is why I began to be interested in amplifiers with a dominant H2 harmonic profile but I am listen to all kind of music, including complex (orchestral) music, it would be logical to switch between that profile and another without harmonics at -90 dB without change the amp.

Months ago, I started incorporating delay with JRiver MC v25 (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/jrmc-dsp-rephase-peq-png.36952/) -> more depth.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minimum-phase-vs-linear-phase.8762/post-253826

Days ago I retouched the amplifier and managed to increase the soundstage, so I reduced from 3 ms -> 2.6 ms. Orchestral: 5 ms -> 4.2 ms.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 4 Jan 2020, 06:46 pm
Jason (Pez)  came by and listened yesterday - he couldn't believe the difference in the sound of my upstairs system.  As I mentioned before, I've just put in thick carpet and very large acoustic panels on the walls, so acoustically it's way different than the last time he was here.  The change in room acoustics is one of the things that motivated my to take the Forte's to Danny in the first place - they sounded fine in the bright room before treatments but sounded a bit soft and muddled after the treatments.

Of course Danny worked his magic & we did all the stuff mentioned in this thread and Jason had not heard any of it, so yesterday he got to hear all the changes all at once.

"Transformed is not a strong enough word to capture how much better your upstairs system sounds" is the exact quote of his reaction.  It sounded so good that we spent the next 2 hours just going through different music tracks to hear how awesome it sounded on the improved setup.  Love it when that happens.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 4 Jan 2020, 09:27 pm
Today I'm supposed to be getting some errands done but I can't seem to get out of the sweet spot, listening to these damn things.  It's great, I have Qobuz which gives true hirez and IMO the best sound quality of all the music services.  I'm able to go through a lot of old recordings I'd written off as "poor" in the past, and actually enjoy them now - that's fantastic!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: witchdoctor on 4 Jan 2020, 09:36 pm
Looks like you had one helluva Happy New Year, enjoy your new setup.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 8 Jan 2020, 09:52 am
YouTube Klipsch Forte III Upgrade and more! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7IOOxqc81U&list=PLUFNGRKZZWXzCt2Syx4yjR4Oy7V-uiePB&index=28)

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hum/Klipsch-Forte-III-Upgrade-and-more-Tech-Talk-28-Danny-Richie-and-Tyson.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hum/Klipsch-Forte-III-Upgrade-and-more-Tech-Talk-28-Danny-Richie-and-Tyson.jpg)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: dflee on 8 Jan 2020, 02:05 pm
Reminds me of those John Cena Hefty commercials.
That pic just keeps saying "Hefty Hefty Hefty".

Don
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: ebag4 on 9 Jan 2020, 04:48 am
Do the Fortes have a 4 ohm woofer and 8 ohm horns?  Most of the older heritage lines used auto transformers to match the drivers levels, I didn’t see  any auto formers on the stock crossovers.  Just curious.

Thanks,
Ed
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: choff on 21 Jan 2020, 01:33 am
I picked up a pair of Forte III's this week based on the high efficiency of the speaker and what I had hoped would be a good match with my restored Dynaco 70 and kit built Bottlehead tube preamps.  Out of the box I was loving the sound with jazz and classic rock, but I am struggling on my compressed modern recordings as the bass is overwhelming the room and balance of the sound.  Would the upgrade kit help tighten things up or shou!d I perhaps be looking for another speaker for my system?  Or are there other modifications I could make to the room and system to make these speakers work for me? Love everything about them but for the boom-ee bass. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: RonP on 21 Jan 2020, 02:17 am
Was the upgrade kit price ever posted?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: witchdoctor on 21 Jan 2020, 02:57 am
I picked up a pair of Forte III's this week based on the high efficiency of the speaker and what I had hoped would be a good match with my restored Dynaco 70 and kit built Bottlehead tube preamps.  Out of the box I was loving the sound with jazz and classic rock, but I am struggling on my compressed modern recordings as the bass is overwhelming the room and balance of the sound.  Would the upgrade kit help tighten things up or shou!d I perhaps be looking for another speaker for my system?  Or are there other modifications I could make to the room and system to make these speakers work for me? Love everything about them but for the boom-ee bass.

I would recommend the Paradigm Link Pre-Amp which comes with ARC room correction plus a huge number of streaming services, DLNA, DAC,etc, on sale now for around $199:

https://www.paradigm.com/en/wireless/pw-link

Review:https://www.soundandvision.com/content/paradigm-premium-wireless-multiroom-audio-system-review
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 21 Jan 2020, 04:56 am
I picked up a pair of Forte III's this week based on the high efficiency of the speaker and what I had hoped would be a good match with my restored Dynaco 70 and kit built Bottlehead tube preamps.  Out of the box I was loving the sound with jazz and classic rock, but I am struggling on my compressed modern recordings as the bass is overwhelming the room and balance of the sound.  Would the upgrade kit help tighten things up or shou!d I perhaps be looking for another speaker for my system?  Or are there other modifications I could make to the room and system to make these speakers work for me? Love everything about them but for the boom-ee bass. 

Oh they are definitely bass heavy speakers.  That's part of what I like about them.  Bracing the cabinet and adding norez definitely makes them less boomy and less muddy in the bass.  But the bass is still really strong even after all the upgrades. 

If your dynaco has the option to use 4ohm speaker taps, use those.  I found with my amps that using the 8ohm outputs resulted in really sloppy, overwhelmingly boomy bass. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: choff on 21 Jan 2020, 12:07 pm
Thanks for the feedback Tyson. Glad to know I have some options. I’ll need to resolder the binding posts for a 4ohm connection, but it sounds like that would be a good place to start to see how things improve. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Sonicjoy on 21 Jan 2020, 02:47 pm
This has been fun to follow. I have never really thought of Klipsch as true audiophile speakers. Might have to rethink that view.
Thanks for posting and the videos are great! nice to put faces to names.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 21 Jan 2020, 03:20 pm
Thanks for the feedback Tyson. Glad to know I have some options. I’ll need to resolder the binding posts for a 4ohm connection, but it sounds like that would be a good place to start to see how things improve. 

Yes for sure.  That will tighten up the bass quite a bit.  Next would be the norez and bracing, which will tighten it up further.  Finally, they may also be exciting a room mode in your listening room.  Best thing is to measure & see if that's the case.  If it is, a bass trap and/or EQ can knock it down. 

They are definitely more fussy to set up than my open baffle Super 7 speakers in the main system, because OB bass is just way easier to integrate into a room - so I feel your pain!  But for me, the strengths that the Fortes bring to the table outweigh their fussy nature in getting set up.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 21 Jan 2020, 04:24 pm
And, since I can never leave well enough alone, here is what my crossover looks like now - all the Sonicaps are bypassed with Miflex copper:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203619)


Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: nickd on 21 Jan 2020, 05:08 pm
Love those Miflex coppers!
Wish I had known about them when I installed Sonicaps in my Altec model 14’s. Think it would have taken them to a better place. As good as the Sonicaps are, the Miflex Copper bypass caps take them to the next level.

The reasonable price is also a “win win” for sure.
Can’t wait to see how much difference they make on the Forte III’s with the GR upgrades. Nice test bed.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 21 Jan 2020, 05:25 pm
Talking about bypass caps. With tweeter cap I have Miflex KPCU-01 0.022uF 600Vdc with cheap yellow cap of 3.9 uF.

[IMG, link] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/kef-q100/KEF-Q100-crossover-Miflex-KPCU-01-001uF-capacitor-Mills-06R8-5-watts-resistor.jpg

3.9 / 0.022 = 177.27 > 100, it is OK


But with the Full range woofer of my BIG "3-ways" maybe a bigger value is better idea.

[IMG, link] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hum/cajas-grandotas-filtro-esquema-tres-vias.png

68 uF -> 0.47 or 0.33 uF -> bigger size and more expensive too

What do you think? Tyson, Danny and others.



Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 21 Jan 2020, 05:30 pm
Talking about bypass caps. With tweeter cap I have Miflex KPCU-01 0.022uF 600Vdc with cheap yellow cap of 3.9 uF.

3.9 / 0.022 = 177.27 > 100, it is OK

But with the woofer of my BIG 3-ways maybe it is better idea a bigger value. 68 uF -> 0.47 or 0.33 uF ??? Bigger size and more expensive too.

[IMG, link] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hum/cajas-grandotas-filtro-esquema-tres-vias.png

What do you think? Tyson, Danny and others.





Danny mentioned to me at anything over .1uf in a bypass cap will start to have phase shift issues.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 21 Jan 2020, 05:37 pm
Then bypass with 0.022uF is the best choice. Cheaper and smaller too!

Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: choff on 21 Jan 2020, 06:06 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203622)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203623)

I was kinda surprised to find the construction of the integral stand. Seems like this could be improved upon to help isolate speaker from floor. Also, there is no way to level with uneven floors with these cheap hollow glides. I ended up popping them off and filling all of them with Blu-tac while I was at it. They come off super easy. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: choff on 22 Jan 2020, 01:40 am
Just spit balling here....but I think this lower section stand would be easily improved if the hollow portion was filled in with mdf or similar to create a solid base instead of this open design.  Also, trying to figure a way to get them on roller balls. That seriously improved the sound of my last speakers.  Pretty tricky given the weight of these speakers and the stock base design.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Jan 2020, 02:38 pm
I thought that they needed about a one foot tall stand myself.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: choff on 22 Jan 2020, 06:06 pm
I thought that they needed about a one foot tall stand myself.

Interesting....I have read comments from quite a few folks saying the same thing about these speakers.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 22 Jan 2020, 08:13 pm
Maybe something like Klipsch Heresy III

(http://www.audiogurus.com/learn/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Klipsch-Heresy-III-speakers-angled.jpg)

But Forte III has a big woofer in the back too -> more floor reflections with this angle.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: choff on 23 Jan 2020, 11:56 am
It had never occurred to me that one might run speakers that are 8ohms on a 4ohm amp tap as Tyson suggested doing for my Forte's to help tighten the bass.  Since I need to resolder the binding post to transformer connections to make this happen, I decided to do some research on the subject until I had the time to do that work.

Like a lot of things on the internet, there sure are a wide variety of opinions on this approach and whether it is in fact safe for a tube amp.  I'm sure Tyson wouldn't have suggested it if he didn't think it was safe or a smart thing to do, but I would love to know more on the subject and what people think about it here?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 23 Jan 2020, 12:59 pm
Yes but not the contrary.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Rusty Jefferson on 23 Jan 2020, 02:29 pm
Just because a transformer coupled tube amplifier has outputs marked 4, 8, or 16 ohms doesn't mean the output impedance is actually 4, 8, or 16 ohms. The reason the bass may be tighter on the 4 ohm tap is simply because output impedance is significantly lower on that tap than the 8 ohm.  Low output impedance is the reason many like solid state (voltage source, not current source) amplifiers.  They have very low output impedance, typically less than .5 ohms, and many as low as .001 ohms.  That low output impedance can be good if woofers aren't being controlled well by an amplifier with high output impedance resulting in woolly bass.  However, if speakers have high impedance, putting a low output impedance amp on them (or using the 4 ohm tap) may over damp the woofers and give the speakers a leaner sound.

I have a small PP el84 amp that has 4, 8, and 16 ohm taps whose actual output impedance measurements are 5.6 ohms, 11 ohms, and about 20 ohms respectively.  Those numbers (4,8,16 ohms) are a guideline.  Also, there is always an assumption with smaller SET and PP transformer coupled amps that you aren't going to put them on speakers with extremely difficult loads that could stress them.  Your Klipsch speakers are not a difficult load.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 23 Jan 2020, 02:42 pm
Just because a transformer coupled tube amplifier has outputs marked 4, 8, or 16 ohms doesn't mean the output impedance is actually 4, 8, or 16 ohms. The reason the bass may be tighter on the 4 ohm tap is simply because output impedance is significantly lower on that tap than the 8 ohm.  Low output impedance is the reason many like solid state (voltage source, not current source) amplifiers.  They have very low output impedance, typically less than .5 ohms, and many as low as .001 ohms.  That low output impedance can be good if woofers aren't being controlled well by an amplifier with high output impedance resulting in woolly bass.  However, if speakers have high impedance, putting a low output impedance amp on them (or using the 4 ohm tap) may over damp the woofers and give the speakers a leaner sound.

I have a small PP el84 amp that has 4, 8, and 16 ohm taps whose actual output impedance measurements are 5.6 ohms, 11 ohms, and about 20 ohms respectively.  Those numbers (4,8,16 ohms) are a guideline.  Also, there is always an assumption with smaller SET and PP transformer coupled amps that you aren't going to put them on speakers with extremely difficult loads that could stress them.  Your Klipsch speakers are not a difficult load.
The transformer output impedance 4, 8, 16 ohms are the speaker impedance recommended.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Rusty Jefferson on 23 Jan 2020, 02:48 pm
The transformer output impedance 4, 8, 16 ohms are the speaker impedance recommended.
Again, a guideline.  If the 4 ohm tap actually has 6 ohms of output impedance, it may work better with some labeled 8 ohm speakers. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 23 Jan 2020, 02:56 pm
Again, a guideline.  If the 4 ohm tap actually has 6 ohms of output impedance, it may work better with some labeled 8 ohm speakers.
This is a prob, do you have seen a amp like this?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 23 Jan 2020, 03:08 pm
The lower output impedance from the amp gives you more control in the bass.  Especially with a speaker like the Forte where it dips to almost 3 ohms in the mid bass. 

Using the lower output impedance definitely will not cause problems with your amp.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Rusty Jefferson on 23 Jan 2020, 03:12 pm
Yes, I just referenced one.  It is not common for the actual measured output impedance to be 4, 8, and 16 ohms.

....I have a small PP el84 amp that has 4, 8, and 16 ohm taps whose actual output impedance measurements are 5.6 ohms, 11 ohms, and about 20 ohms respectively.  Those numbers (4,8,16 ohms) are a guideline. .....
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 23 Jan 2020, 03:14 pm
Interesting, please PM me the details.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: jmpsmash on 24 Jan 2020, 09:51 am
The output taps (4/8/16) in a tube amplifier with output transformer has very little to do with the output impedance.

The transformer is a impedance transforming device that transforms the low impedance of a speaker (4/8/16 Ohms) to the high load impedance needed to be a load of the output tube. Eg. in a 300B SET, one of the most popular load impedance is around 3500. the transformer taps (4/8/16) merely says if you put a 4/8/16 Ohm speaker at the output side of the transformer, it will transform it to give the 300B the optimal load of 3500 Ohm.

As for the actual output impedance, it is calculated by the plate resistance (Rp) of the tube itself, and then transformed back into the output side. so as an example for 300B with a 4 Ohm load, a 300B has a Rp of 720, and it is a 3.5k->4 transformer, the output impedance will be 720*4/3500=0.8 Ohm. Since that is connected to a 4 Ohm load, the damping factor is around 5. Which is nothing to write home about!

Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: choff on 25 Jan 2020, 09:01 pm
Made the switch to 4 ohm tap. The change is actually much more subtle than I had anticipated, but I do like what I hear on initial listening. Definitely a more balanced sound with highs and mids out front and not getting overwhelmed by the bass.   No reduction in power either, which surprised me as I thought by stepping down to 4ohm on 8ohm speaker would equal less power?

One odd thing when I was making the binding post change is the 4 ohm lead from transformer was reading at .7 resistance and the 8ohm at .9 to 1.0.....is that normal?  Would have thought 4ohm would be .4 and 8ohm read .8?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: jmpsmash on 25 Jan 2020, 11:57 pm
Made the switch to 4 ohm tap. The change is actually much more subtle than I had anticipated, but I do like what I hear on initial listening. Definitely a more balanced sound with highs and mids out front and not getting overwhelmed by the bass.   No reduction in power either, which surprised me as I thought by stepping down to 4ohm on 8ohm speaker would equal less power?

One odd thing when I was making the binding post change is the 4 ohm lead from transformer was reading at .7 resistance and the 8ohm at .9 to 1.0.....is that normal?  Would have thought 4ohm would be .4 and 8ohm read .8?

regarding resistance, using a simplified analysis, the winding ratio (and thus resistance) is by voltage, and since power should be the same whether 4 or 8 ohms, and power is voltage^2, 8 ohm resistance being ~1.4x of 4ohm is correct.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 26 Jan 2020, 12:12 am
The output taps (4/8/16) in a tube amplifier with output transformer has very little to do with the output impedance.

The transformer is a impedance transforming device that transforms the low impedance of a speaker (4/8/16 Ohms) to the high load impedance needed to be a load of the output tube. Eg. in a 300B SET, one of the most popular load impedance is around 3500. the transformer taps (4/8/16) merely says if you put a 4/8/16 Ohm speaker at the output side of the transformer, it will transform it to give the 300B the optimal load of 3500 Ohm.

As for the actual output impedance, it is calculated by the plate resistance (Rp) of the tube itself, and then transformed back into the output side. so as an example for 300B with a 4 Ohm load, a 300B has a Rp of 720, and it is a 3.5k->4 transformer, the output impedance will be 720*4/3500=0.8 Ohm. Since that is connected to a 4 Ohm load, the damping factor is around 5. Which is nothing to write home about!

Thank YOU and Rusty Jefferson for communicating this truth. I am shocked by how many tube owners don’t know this!

What the output impedance is at a respective tap has to do with the dynamic plate impedance (which is related to the BIAS) of the tube used, the turns ratio of the output transformer and whether it is a SE design or PP design. Not to mention the fact that the output impedance isn’t a static number. It varies by frequency. Most “estimations” are at 1khz, but most dynamic driver based loudspeakers have their impedance nadir at 100-300Hz!

So how does one know the actual output impedance of an amplifier? Measure it from 20-20khz.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: jmpsmash on 26 Jan 2020, 03:09 am
Thank YOU and Rusty Jefferson for communicating this truth. I am shocked by how many tube owners don’t know this!

What the output impedance is at a respective tap has to do with the dynamic plate impedance (which is related to the BIAS) of the tube used, the turns ratio of the output transformer and whether it is a SE design or PP design. Not to mention the fact that the output impedance isn’t a static number. It varies by frequency. Most “estimations” are at 1khz, but most dynamic driver based loudspeakers have their impedance nadir at 100-300Hz!

So how does one know the actual output impedance of an amplifier? Measure it from 20-20khz.

Best,
Anand.

I am not surprised that not everyone knows it. The explanation is quite technical.  I have been a tube amp owner for many years and only learned it recently after I started designing my own amps.

Just wondering,  how do we measure the output impedance of a output transformer tube amp over the frequency range?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 26 Jan 2020, 03:44 am
I am not surprised that not everyone knows it. The explanation is quite technical.  I have been a tube amp owner for many years and only learned it recently after I started designing my own amps.

Just wondering,  how do we measure the output impedance of a output transformer tube amp over the frequency range?

Here is the simplest method I have seen:

http://homediyelectronics.com/tutorials/howtomeasureoutputimpedance/

The more sure method is to use an Audio Precision device or similar. Expensive, yes. Of course there are less expensive analyzers (with less resolution, but resolution isn’t an important criteria to measure output impedance, it is important for measuring distortion, noise and dynamic range). I am looking for the least expensive method, which hopefully involves using Room EQ Wizard, a free piece of software, which now has an oscilloscope in it too. That being said, I will probably be purchasing an oscilloscope to add to my measurement gear. I already have a signal generator.

Here is a quick calculator if you have the measurements:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-InputOutputImpedance.htm

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 1 Mar 2020, 04:49 am
Hi All.

New here, but I received the upgrade kit last week and started work on it.

Will post picture and comments as I go!

Here are the initial pics.

*removed schematic pics


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205380)






Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 1 Mar 2020, 07:58 pm
Today's progress. Crossovers mostly done and braces in.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205405)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205406)

Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Jules1 on 2 Mar 2020, 03:03 am
As good as the forte III is, and it is very good. It’s still not in the league of the mighty klipschorn. Not really much of a debate actually.

Shakey

Having heard Tyson's Forte speakers, and still owning a pair of aged Klipschorns. My thoughts are that my 'stock' Klipchorns are behind these Forte's in every compartment. I was taken aback on how good these Forte's sound.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 2 Mar 2020, 05:23 am
Looking good man!!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: FullRangeMan on 2 Mar 2020, 05:56 am
Twelve inductors !
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 2 Mar 2020, 07:18 am
In the future you can try add 2+1 Miflex KPCU-01 0.01uF 600Vdc as a bypass the Sonicaps after you have memorized the new sound.

Tweeter (2) and midwoofer (1).

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205419) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205420&size=huge)


Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 2 Mar 2020, 08:19 am
What does a bypass capacitor do?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 2 Mar 2020, 08:46 am
To this day I still can't find an academic explanation that justifies as much difference in sound as I have seen with these Miflex. According to Danny Richie, it seems to make it easier for the capacitors to charge and discharge the electric charge much faster.

In my case, in my modified KEF Q100 the difference was amazing, undeniable.

The difference between the baffle with the Miflex and the other without it was overwhelming. With the best version I have and / or that I have never heard of Hotel California (Eagles), 24/192 vinyl rip.

* https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post5652477.html

-> https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-853.html
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 2 Mar 2020, 09:32 am
If you dare to do it, first only with one box and thus compare with the other. You play a recording that you have of reference, of great sound quality and high dynamic range and verify how much improvement there is.

I suspect that the M.D.L. capacitor and the resistance of the Q100 should be very damaging to the sound, so the yellow condenser will probably change as well. The oil ones (3.9 uF) are too big for those boxes!

KEF Q100 crossover: [IMG, link] https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204399&size=huge

PS: It is assumed that one day I will rebuild the crossover, with point-to-point welding, new wiring (probably first with star-quad geometry, cheaper) and other binding posts (with low mass and... without magnetic washers, just welding).
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 2 Mar 2020, 05:31 pm
Having heard Tyson's Forte speakers, and still owning a pair of aged Klipschorns. My thoughts are that my 'stock' Klipchorns are behind these Forte's in every compartment. I was taken aback on how good these Forte's sound.

Thanks Jules - glad you enjoyed them.  Saturday's CAS meeting was a blast!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Jules1 on 3 Mar 2020, 01:52 am
Absolutely Tyson, no better way to spend a Saturday afternoon, a great host, wonderful sounds from both sets of loudspeakers. Not forgetting the wonderful eats.
I hope somebody sends Danny a pair of Klipschorns to fix the issues that they have. Mine are in the two corners of our dining room not connected. They need work to get them to where i would like them to be musically.
 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: corndog71 on 3 Mar 2020, 03:29 am
Absolutely Tyson, no better way to spend a Saturday afternoon, a great host, wonderful sounds from both sets of loudspeakers. Not forgetting the wonderful eats.
I hope somebody sends Danny a pair of Klipschorns to fix the issues that they have. Mine are in the two corners of our dining room not connected. They need work to get them to where i would like them to be musically.

The first thing you could do is add No Rez to the cabinets. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 3 Mar 2020, 04:47 am
More progress... Can't wait to leave the office for evening extra ciricular...


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205453)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205454)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205455)



Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 3 Mar 2020, 07:51 am
Maybe also No-Rez on the back of the front is a good idea. Danny and Tyson what do you think?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 3 Mar 2020, 09:57 am
Maybe also No-Rez on the back of the front is a good idea. Danny and Tyson what do you think?

Yeah, it's coming!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 3 Mar 2020, 11:07 am
Girated, clarified and optimized

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205457&size=large) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205457&size=huge)

Click on image -> Huge

Front, back and sides, how much thick thin MDF?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 3 Mar 2020, 11:12 am
To compare. NX-Studio, inside with No-Rez by Sonicjoy
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=168181.msg1786544#msg1786544

Resized and optimized

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205459&size=huge)

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160647.msg1764167#msg1764167

Quote
1. MDF is fine. It is dense and less resonant than other materials. It is also cheap and easy to purchase and cut.

2. The front baffle is 1.375" thick [MDF] already. So there is no resonance issue. Also the woofer frame is made from a polymer material that is non-resonance and will not transmit a resonant to the front baffle like most woofers. And it surface mounts so baffle material is not removed for mounting like many drivers that have to be recessed...
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 3 Mar 2020, 03:25 pm
Last shot, all reassembled.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205463)



Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 3 Mar 2020, 03:26 pm
Absolutely Tyson, no better way to spend a Saturday afternoon, a great host, wonderful sounds from both sets of loudspeakers. Not forgetting the wonderful eats.
I hope somebody sends Danny a pair of Klipschorns to fix the issues that they have. Mine are in the two corners of our dining room not connected. They need work to get them to where i would like them to be musically.
 

Well, it's only a 10 hour drive to Danny's... Just sayin'  :P
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Wind Chaser on 3 Mar 2020, 03:27 pm
Last shot, all reassembled.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205463)

Looks good, I bet you'll be all smiles.  :D :D
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 3 Mar 2020, 03:38 pm
Only played 3 songs on it, streaming on my super cheap back ground music amp, but instantly, I mean instantly noticed a difference. Too early for details but the intro on a random EDM track seemed to come from the other side of a wall. Bass, more defined, more rounded.

Like I said, 3 songs in but will fire up the reel to reel, turn table and 845 SET asap.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 3 Mar 2020, 03:38 pm
Last shot, all reassembled.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205463)





Very nice!  When you put the acoustic stuffing in, it should go into the top and bottom of the cabinet, but should not be tightly compressed, it should be a bit 'loose'.  If you put in too much stuffing, it'll make the box seem bigger & possibly tune the bass too low.  In my room I get strong bass down to 35hz and that seems about right.  Some of that is room dependent though, so I'd go more by ear with how it sounds. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 3 Mar 2020, 03:42 pm
Only played 3 songs on it, streaming on my super cheap back ground music amp, but instantly, I mean instantly noticed a difference. Too early for details but the intro on a random EDM track seemed to come from the other side of a wall. Bass, more defined, more rounded.

Like I said, 3 songs in but will fire up the reel to reel, turn table and 845 SET asap.

Oh, that's gonna sound nice!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 3 Mar 2020, 03:45 pm
I've started without the stuffing, going to add bit by bit to my taste.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maty on 3 Mar 2020, 05:03 pm
Clarified and optimized

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205473&size=large) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205473&size=huge)

Click on image -> Huge.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 3 Mar 2020, 05:33 pm
I've started without the stuffing, going to add bit by bit to my taste.

Good plan.  I'd recommend starting at the bottom first with any stuffing, to cover the crossover which is now reflecting high frequencies.  Main advice - don't let the stuffing physically touch any of the moving drivers like the midrange woofer or the passive radiator. 

I'm listening to Starboy the The Weeknd right now and it's shaking the room!  i'm using my 12 watt EL84 amp from VTA and it's rocking the house :thumb:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 3 Mar 2020, 06:33 pm
Good plan.  I'd recommend starting at the bottom first with any stuffing, to cover the crossover which is now reflecting high frequencies.  Main advice - don't let the stuffing physically touch any of the moving drivers like the midrange woofer or the passive radiator. 

I'm listening to Starboy the The Weeknd right now and it's shaking the room!  i'm using my 12 watt EL84 amp from VTA and it's rocking the house :thumb:

Cool, thanks man. Will do.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: WarmColors on 5 Mar 2020, 12:19 am
How much is it for the upgrade? I skimmed read but I think I may have missed it.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 5 Mar 2020, 12:50 am
How much is it for the upgrade? I skimmed read but I think I may have missed it.

A little over $600 I believe.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 Mar 2020, 04:58 pm
$639 for everything.

Danny
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 9 Mar 2020, 09:55 am
Quick update.

I've only listened for about an hour seriously, with a couple of  hours of back ground music burnin.

I also haven't stuffed them yet as I thought I had some stuffing left over, but didn't... So just put some foam I've the crossovers. I haven't played with weight on the PR yet either.

Immediately noticed more clarity, much more definition, smoother on the mid and treble. Less harshness on the top end, everything sounds tighter and better in that regard.

However, no bass. Or less bass than before. Little effect moving closer to the wall.

Not too concerned yet due to lack of stuffing and PR weight and burnin as mentioned in a previous post.

Also, playing out of 8ohms. Previously, they sounded best in my room out of 16ohm so... 🤷🏻‍♂️

Will report back when stuffing arrives and more burn in is done.

With the bass sorted, these will be great.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 9 Mar 2020, 03:51 pm
Bmarshall, do you have the ability to do a measurement?  That might tell us if a driver is wired out of phase. 

In fact, reverse the phase coming from the amp & see if bass suddenly appears.

On mine, I actually get too much bass down at 35 hz (room mode) and have to EQ that down about 3db. 

If you don't have a separate mic for measuring, the quick and dirty way to do it is go to the App store and look for AudioTools by Studio Digital Six.  It's got an RTA and an FFT, both are very, very useful for this type of issue. 

They also do a good job compensating for the non-linearity of the built in iPhone mic.  It's not as good as my Earthworks M23, but for this application it doesn't need to be.  It's plenty accurate for chasing down bass issues.

Just as an FYI, I ended up removing the putty from mine, as using the measurements to find the actual bass modes and EQ them out was more effective at getting good, clean bass in my room. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 9 Mar 2020, 06:43 pm
Will try swapping the polarity. Not too knowledgeable on measuring, but will have a go. Only have a lapel mic and ipod, will have a go.

Alternatively, I have a good condensor mic for recording with sound card etc for Mac, is there a a program you can recommend if this is a suitable route?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 9 Mar 2020, 06:58 pm
My basic method for room measurements is just send full range pink noise to the speakers.  There's all kinds of tracks out there with pink noise that'll play like any other track from a CD or streaming.  Run that pink noise through the system.  I use the FFT function from Studio Digital Six.  There's also an RTA function.  Either one will work fine.  The Studio Digital Six should work on an iPod, I believe. 

Re: using a Mac laptop or desktop, I'm going to say that REW is probably your best bet.  However I personally have never used REW since I run HolmImpulse on my Windows based server. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: corndog71 on 9 Mar 2020, 07:11 pm
Also double check the polarity of your speaker wires.  I’ve mixed it up enough times over the years to know when my speakers are out of phase.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 9 Mar 2020, 07:43 pm
So, I check polarity. It's all fine, except for the high on one speaker seems to be reversed... Odd, but will check internal wires in the morning.

Will investigate a measurement attempt at some point soon.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 11 Mar 2020, 03:34 pm
Attached are some screen grabs of probably not the best speaker measurement in history. Done with pink noise - not sure what I'm looking for to see if any thing is wrong. The only setting I change was A weighting. Done off an iPod at listening position...so not the best at all.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205789)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205790)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205791)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205792)


Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 11 Mar 2020, 04:05 pm
The issue is definitely with the midwoofer.  Not sure what would cause that type of drop off, my guess is a wiring issue with the crossover.  Almost seems like the midrange rolloff wiring is hooked up to the bass woofer by mistake.  Try swapping the wiring from the midwoofer and the midrange horn around & see what happens.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 11 Mar 2020, 04:27 pm
Should the line be flat? I changed to a weighting, and it rolls off like this. If I don't use a weighting, the line is basically flat.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 11 Mar 2020, 05:03 pm
like this?

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205795)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 11 Mar 2020, 05:37 pm
I use the "Flat" option but C-weighted works too.

Looking at your C-weighted graphs, you have strong response down to 40hz in room.  So your crossover seems fine.

I think that dip centered around 80hz is what's causing the perceived lack of bass.  These types of dips and peaks are very room dependent, and they are ALWAYS present with box speakers.  It's just a question of where is the peak/dip and how bad.  For example, in my room I have the opposite problem - too much bass in the 70-80hz area. 

Try this - put pink noise through your speakers again, and then get up and slowly walk around the room with the FFT program running on you phone/ipod.  Do the bass peaks/dips change?  You'll probably see that they will.  You could move your listening chair forward or backward in the room if you see it fills in at a different location.

The 2nd thing to do - move the speakers closer to the wall, see what that does.  And also move the speakers further into the room.  See what that does.

As a last resort, you can use an EQ to boost the 80hz region.  But only do that if you have a fairly powerful amp, as that will tend to eat up watts. 

Also, bass traps can (counterintuitively) help with nulls because they absorb the reinforced bass signal that is causing the cancellation effect.  GIK here on AC has some great products for bass traps.  But they are big. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 11 Mar 2020, 06:32 pm
If the reading looks ok to you, then I'm cool. i think it's just going to require the usual tweaking and moving them around until I get the sweet spot - just like getting a new pair of speakers! (as well as adding stuffing.) I spent ages getting the right position for the Forte's when I got them, so it's probably the same now.

It's odd, but I think on day one, we may have had a  bad power day - they are pretty common here in Dubai. It just sounded cr*p, I've noticed this happening several times over the years.

Then yesterday and today, they sounded pretty good. Could be a bad power day, or burn in process.

100% they are clearer, tighter and more detailed so pretty sure the electronics are correct. Will play around a bit and report back when evs.




Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Mar 2020, 07:00 pm
You are measuring one speaker at a time aren't you?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 11 Mar 2020, 07:40 pm
Nope, both at same time at listening position...
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Mar 2020, 11:24 pm
Nope, both at same time at listening position...

Ugh!

You can't get any real data on the room response measuring both of them at the same time. That will cause peaks and dips from the differential time arrivals of the two sources.

You have to measure them one at a time to get meaningful data.

Start over and do them one at a time.

This will also let you find and fix each issue in the room to help get a balanced response.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Bmarshall on 13 Mar 2020, 07:41 am
I'm just using my ear holes to measure. They sound great. Fine tuned their position and happy with them now.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Roy Boy on 25 Mar 2020, 06:03 pm
Cutting the braces.  We did it differently than I thought we would.  My idea was just to get some oak dowels and glue them lenghthwise and crosswise, flat against each interior panel.  But Danny explained that while it would make the cabinet stiffer, it would also eat up airspace.  A better way for our purposes is to cut small diagonal braces and make triangle braces at key locations.  I also would have put the braces closer to the middle but Danny showed me that putting them at the 1/3rd point instead of the 1/2 point actually does a better job reducing resonance and increasing cabinet stiffness. 

Cutting the braces:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202537)


Started adding the braces:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202562)


Braces are all in and Norez installed too:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202563)

So I have a pair of Chorus II that I am looking into doing similar upgrades (getting Danny to design a crossover)..One question on cabinet bracing. How did you determine that you needed to do both cabinet bracing and no-Rez? I was watching Dannie's talk on cabinet resonance and he did not really address doing both. I am trying to determine for my Chorus II if I should do both or just the No-Rez. Thanks
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: WGH on 25 Mar 2020, 06:45 pm
Braces are always good but NEVER, EVER use the method in the photo to cut braces. This is beyond dangerous, one tiny misstep and the brace can get jammed between the blade and the fence and kick back as fast as a bullet with surprising force, usually pulling your hand into the blade.

I have been woodworking professionally (http://www.wghwoodworking.com/) for 50 years and still have all 10 fingers but all my woodworker friends have had major injuries, some losing body parts doing stupid stuff just like this.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202537)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Woodsage on 25 Mar 2020, 07:01 pm
 
Braces are always good but NEVER, EVER use the method in the photo to cut braces. This is beyond dangerous, one tiny misstep and the brace can get jammed between the blade and the fence and kick back as fast as a bullet with surprising force, usually pulling your hand into the blade.

I have been woodworking professionally (http://www.wghwoodworking.com/) for 50 years and still have all 10 fingers but all my woodworker friends have had major injuries, some losing body parts doing stupid stuff just like this.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202537)



:lol:

I was lucky enough to be able to retire early after only 40 years in the furniture manufacturing business. Seemed more like 40 dog years though... I saw my share of gruesome accidents one which was fatal.

I thought the exact same thing when I saw his but I bit my tongue. Extremely dangerous and made more ironic by having the crosscut guide in the picture.

BTW, I still have all 10 digits too..... makes holding my whiskey glass much easier.

Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: jtwrace on 25 Mar 2020, 07:10 pm
Braces are always good but NEVER, EVER use the method in the photo to cut braces. This is beyond dangerous, one tiny misstep and the brace can get jammed between the blade and the fence and kick back as fast as a bullet with surprising force, usually pulling your hand into the blade.

I have been woodworking professionally (http://www.wghwoodworking.com/) for 50 years and still have all 10 fingers but all my woodworker friends have had major injuries, some losing body parts doing stupid stuff just like this.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202537)
Totally agree.  Whoever this is clearly has no clue what they're doing and what a table-saw is capable of.   :duh:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Mar 2020, 07:28 pm
Thanks for your concern guys.

The reason that the guard is off of the blade is because (and you can't tell in the picture) the blade is laid over at a 45 degree angle.

And the pieces being cut were 3/4" square. So they don't make it to the back of the blade where they can be thrown. And the piece that I am holding doesn't go far before being pulled back.

And with the blade laid over at an an extreme angle the small piece being cut off can't be thrown up because the angle of the blade traps it between the table and the blade.

Normally I would push things through using the crosscut guide, but in this case the pieces were too small.

It's not as bad as it looks.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: WGH on 25 Mar 2020, 07:50 pm
I agree with everything you wrote but a newbie will see this photo and assume they can do the same thing with the blade at 90 degrees.

With small pieces like this I square cut them to length with a radial arm saw and then sand the 45 degree bevel using a Powermatic 12" disk sander with a crosscut guide. 100% safe along with less stress although there is more sawdust and takes longer but that is OK with me. I hate power tool surprises.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Mar 2020, 07:55 pm
I agree with everything you wrote but a newbie will see this photo and assume they can do the same thing with the blade at 90 degrees.

With small pieces like this I square cut them to length with a radial arm saw and then sand the 45 degree bevel using a Powermatic 12" disk sander with a crosscut guide. 100% safe along with less stress although there is more sawdust and takes longer but that is OK with me. I hate power tool surprises.

I agree. I don't advocate this approach. It may be fast and easy for me, but certainly not the safest, and I don't recommend it. 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Roy Boy on 25 Mar 2020, 08:13 pm
I agree. I don't advocate this approach. It may be fast and easy for me, but certainly not the safest, and I don't recommend it.

Danny,
  So on a speaker like the Klipsch Chorus II would you suggest both bracing and noRes? Thanks
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Paopawdecarabao on 25 Mar 2020, 08:30 pm
What is the length of the braces. Does Home Depot or Lowe’s cut them to spec?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Mar 2020, 08:40 pm
Danny,
  So on a speaker like the Klipsch Chorus II would you suggest both bracing and noRes? Thanks

Yes, for an un-braced speaker cabinet that large I do recommend both.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Woodsage on 25 Mar 2020, 09:21 pm
Thanks for your concern guys.

The reason that the guard is off of the blade is because (and you can't tell in the picture) the blade is laid over at a 45 degree angle.

And the pieces being cut were 3/4" square. So they don't make it to the back of the blade where they can be thrown. And the piece that I am holding doesn't go far before being pulled back.

And with the blade laid over at an an extreme angle the small piece being cut off can't be thrown up because the angle of the blade traps it between the table and the blade.

Normally I would push things through using the crosscut guide, but in this case the pieces were too small.

It's not as bad as it looks.

Forty years in the business and no table saw I worked on had blade guards. Most professionals that use table saws consider blade guards both cumbersome and dangerous.

Three basic rules that will keep your fingers attached in order of importance. Don’t put your hands behind the blade. Use a push stick when ripping very narrow pieces (but don’t get carried away). Don’t cross cut narrow pieces using the rip  fence.

The fourth rule is really important! If you’re  doing an operation and thinking to yourself that you probably shouldn’t be doing it that way, stop!

YMMV of course.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: WGH on 25 Mar 2020, 09:29 pm
The fifth rule is "If You Drink, Don't Drill"

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163188)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Woodsage on 25 Mar 2020, 09:39 pm
The fifth rule is "If You Drink, Don't Drill"

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163188)

😂 Back in the day I wouldn’t have gotten much drilling done....

I’m sure you remember back before all the fun stuff was taken away from blue collar work. Granted it wasn’t like The Wolf of Wall Street but we definitely had us some fun!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Josh Mo on 5 Apr 2020, 02:23 pm
Awesome thread. Knee deep in the project as we speak, excited to talk about sonic differences. Fully taken apart, cutting up braces and about to glue them all in and dampen the interior of the cabinet. 

I'm new to modding Klipsch speakers, but wondering if anyone has experience with damping of stiffening up the horns. Tyson and Danny threw a piece of NoRez on there, but would it be better to Dynamat the rear to kill reflections, add mass, and possibly stiffen things up a bit? Would this cause undesirable sonic changes that I'm not thinking of? There are pics in earlier posts where other Klipsch modders did do this to other speakers (clay, bitumen, dynamat, etc), but just curious as to what the rest of you experienced modders would do.

I suppose this would go for the stamped steel baskets of the woofer and passive radiator too. Would it be better to Dynamat these to kill reflections and mass load the driver a small amount?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 5 Apr 2020, 04:04 pm
Dynamat is an excellent choice.  Use it on all the frames of the drivers.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 Apr 2020, 04:32 pm
What Tyson said is correct.

Or you you have some left over pieces of No Rez you can use that. You can also peel the foam layer off and just use the damping layer.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Sonicjoy on 5 Apr 2020, 04:52 pm
While on this subject what about managing the back wave reflections from the spider frame itself especially on midrange drivers.

Vandersteen designs his drivers with minimal surface's that will bounce the back wave of the driver back through the cone. Is there any material that can be placed inside the spider frame that will absorb that range of frequencies? Would NoRez with the foam work? Anyone experiment with this?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 5 Apr 2020, 05:52 pm
While on this subject what about managing the back wave reflections from the spider frame itself especially on midrange drivers.

Vandersteen designs his drivers with minimal surface's that will bounce the back wave of the driver back through the cone. Is there any material that can be placed inside the spider frame that will absorb that range of frequencies? Would NoRez with the foam work? Anyone experiment with this?

Wouldn't that affect airflow from the rear of the driver in a negative way?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Sonicjoy on 5 Apr 2020, 06:28 pm
I don't know that's what I am wondering. The vandersteen design turns the legs of the basket 90 degrees so they are parallel to the air flow for minimum resistance and surface area including the magnet structure to minimize bounce back through the cone.

Here are a couple pics I found:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206927)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206928)



(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206929)
 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: imom on 24 Apr 2020, 07:23 pm
Are there no spectral decay plots available? I thought they were mentioned in the Youtube video.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Swann36 on 28 Apr 2020, 05:26 pm
This is a great thread and the one that got me hooked to join .. so thank you to all those that have and are posting here .. I've got Klipsch Quartets from 92 and are very interested in following a similar path to the Fortes ...
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: iaRIVR on 12 May 2020, 01:39 pm
Hi All - I joined just to comment on this thread! Really interesting work and thank you for sharing. Most of my info is from watching the klipsch forums and working on my forte IIs.

1) The bracing looks fantastic. I have seen most people running 2-3 braces across the middle of the speaker, this method looks not only much cleaner but easier.

2) The Titanium mids were seen as a potential upgrade for the Forte I & II, but it seemed about 50% yanked them out right away because they were louder and it killed the balance. Could the Forte III crossover be used as the basis for a redesigned Forte I & II crossover to use Ti mids? There was a bandpass filter made but I don't think it was quite right. A lotta folks over on the klipsch forums might be interested in that mod...

3) Last one - I was considering replacing factor foam with acoustic panels or similar but understood that most folks stopped above the woofer rather than bringing the foam all the way down the side. The upper 2/3-3/4 or so. Maybe wanted to kill the reflections for the tweeter and mid but let the bass resonate? Not remembering exactly. Looks like you did the full length of the cabinet, any thoughts on stopping above the woofer?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 12 May 2020, 05:07 pm
Hi All - I joined just to comment on this thread! Really interesting work and thank you for sharing. Most of my info is from watching the klipsch forums and working on my forte IIs.

1) The bracing looks fantastic. I have seen most people running 2-3 braces across the middle of the speaker, this method looks not only much cleaner but easier.

2) The Titanium mids were seen as a potential upgrade for the Forte I & II, but it seemed about 50% yanked them out right away because they were louder and it killed the balance. Could the Forte III crossover be used as the basis for a redesigned Forte I & II crossover to use Ti mids? There was a bandpass filter made but I don't think it was quite right. A lotta folks over on the klipsch forums might be interested in that mod...

3) Last one - I was considering replacing factor foam with acoustic panels or similar but understood that most folks stopped above the woofer rather than bringing the foam all the way down the side. The upper 2/3-3/4 or so. Maybe wanted to kill the reflections for the tweeter and mid but let the bass resonate? Not remembering exactly. Looks like you did the full length of the cabinet, any thoughts on stopping above the woofer?

If you're going to brace the Forte's, then you definitely want to use Norez as well.  That will give you the stiffest and most inert cabinet possible.  Which, IME is what you want.  On the other hand, if you want the cabinet to vibrate then don't brace it or use Norez because that would be counter to allowing the cabinet to resonate.  But in my experience, nothing good comes from a resonating cabinet. 

The Forte II is different enough that you'd need to send it to Danny to get a new crossover designed for it.  The midrange drivers are fairly difficult to work with, but Danny's a wizard at this stuff.

Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: iaRIVR on 12 May 2020, 06:34 pm
If you're going to brace the Forte's, then you definitely want to use Norez as well.  That will give you the stiffest and most inert cabinet possible.  Which, IME is what you want.  On the other hand, if you want the cabinet to vibrate then don't brace it or use Norez because that would be counter to allowing the cabinet to resonate.  But in my experience, nothing good comes from a resonating cabinet. 

The Forte II is different enough that you'd need to send it to Danny to get a new crossover designed for it.  The midrange drivers are fairly difficult to work with, but Danny's a wizard at this stuff.

I need to get a few more posts before I can search - if this too off topic there might be a better thread.

My understanding is as stiff as you can get without taking too much away from the original volume. I will definitely look into the Norez. I have also been considering component upgrades, tweeter resistor and air core inductors primarily. I have sonicaps now, I did see an interesting post about adding bypass caps to those. New gasket material for the drivers. So many options!

Makes complete sense about the crossover, the Forte III in the pic looks significantly more complex than the Forte II.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: emailtim on 13 May 2020, 05:11 am
Next we measure!  Here's a picture of the setup.  Danny will post the graphs later, once we have the curves for both the old crossover and the new crossover.  For now, here's what the process looks like:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202529)

That jack is cheating !!!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: maddog07 on 22 May 2020, 10:33 pm
I saw earlier in this thread... where somebody was talking about having Danny design a xover for a Chorus II.  I have a vintage pair of Chorus II's myself.  And I have them completely disassembled right now.  The stock xover caps have been replaced with Sonicaps(as recommended by Crites), but I was going to brace and damp the cabinet before I put everything back together.  If Danny has a xover for the Chorus II... I'd be very interested as well - especially if the work is already done and I don't have to get the speakers in Danny's possession - they are huge & heavy = $$$ shipping.  Probably even cost prohibitive to ship.  I talked to Al Klappenberger about a year ago, and at the time, he said he had not done any work on xovers for Chorus'.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 23 May 2020, 05:16 pm
Not sure about the Chorus II.  How close are you to Texas?   A drive might be in order :thumb:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: emailtim on 23 May 2020, 05:56 pm
I saw earlier in this thread... where somebody was talking about having Danny design a xover for a Chorus II.  I have a vintage pair of Chorus II's myself.  And I have them completely disassembled right now.  The stock xover caps have been replaced with Sonicaps(as recommended by Crites), but I was going to brace and damp the cabinet before I put everything back together.  If Danny has a xover for the Chorus II... I'd be very interested as well - especially if the work is already done and I don't have to get the speakers in Danny's possession - they are huge & heavy = $$$ shipping.  Probably even cost prohibitive to ship.  I talked to Al Klappenberger about a year ago, and at the time, he said he had not done any work on xovers for Chorus'.

Loved my Chorus II's.  Often regret selling them.  Hope you can work something out with Danny for your rebuild.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Roy Boy on 26 May 2020, 06:49 pm
I saw earlier in this thread... where somebody was talking about having Danny design a xover for a Chorus II.  I have a vintage pair of Chorus II's myself.  And I have them completely disassembled right now.  The stock xover caps have been replaced with Sonicaps(as recommended by Crites), but I was going to brace and damp the cabinet before I put everything back together.  If Danny has a xover for the Chorus II... I'd be very interested as well - especially if the work is already done and I don't have to get the speakers in Danny's possession - they are huge & heavy = $$$ shipping.  Probably even cost prohibitive to ship.  I talked to Al Klappenberger about a year ago, and at the time, he said he had not done any work on xovers for Chorus'.
That was me. I have not gotten over to Danny to him measure my Chorus II...I live in Dallas. I did take several steps to upgrade my Chorus II's based on this thread...
   1)Braced the cabinet
    2) Installed No Rez to damp the cabinet
    3) added dynamat-like damping to the drivers (mid lens, woofer and passive
    4) Swapped out the OEM tweeter and lens for Dave's LMAHL lens and DE10 driver
    5) upgraded OEM crossover with upgrade kit from Crites

I am quite pleased with the results. I have a pair of Seaton Submersive subs that I bring in under the Chorus IIs (they run full range) using a DBX PA-II Drive rack. I have been ripping my vinyl using am RME ADI-2 Pro ADC at 24-352....I ripped an original Heart - Dreamboat Annie album. Streamed the rip of  "Crazy on You" back from my Lumin A1 at around 105db...It was crazy good. There was dancing and much air guitar going on in the house...

 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 26 May 2020, 07:55 pm
I did something similar to my dads 90s Technics 3-ways. It still needs bracing, but I haven't had the opportunity to pick up the tool I need from my mother's places to cut them, but using the pseudo-norez on the walls and some dynamat on the mid and bass woofers really helped to tighten up the quality in those ranges, esp at higher volumes. The eventual bracing will only help things further.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Josh Mo on 26 Sep 2020, 02:44 pm
Reporting back after about 6 months. The upgrade kit from GR Research and additional bracing has taken these good value speakers and really improved them all around. 1khz spike didnt both me too bad before, but now that its been squashed the speaker is much more pleasant to listen to. Speakers are much less boxy sounding, more natural, kicked up level of detail, etc. I was worried that the natural sound and tuning of this classic speaker might be altered, but it was only enhanced.

Appreciate Tylers willingness to bring the speakers down for analysis and Danny's work / releasing offering the upgrades to the community. Thanks guys - I picture many many more years of enhanced enjoyment from these speakers.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: NickMimi on 26 Sep 2020, 06:45 pm
That is great to hear, thank you for the update. I have read every word in this thread since i am And have been a Klipsch Fanboy for close to 2 decades now!  :thumb: Another idea in the hopper for a future purchase.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: coverto on 8 Oct 2020, 03:15 am
Hi all - I'm an old AC member who hasn't been posting much here in the past couple years, partly because I am enjoying my Forte IIIs so much! Switched from the Rethm Maargas, which were wonderful, and have been amazed to find that I actually like the Forte IIIs better. But I do agree with Tyson and others that, their name notwithstanding, the Forte IIIs do sound better at lower and medium volumes. I had been wondering whether to blame it on my Coincident 300B monoblocks. Now I think I am ready to try the GR Research upgrade kit. I am wondering whether folks find that it improves the sound even at lower volumes, and whether the bass output is increased at all volume levels? I like others have also found that the bass of the Forte IIIs is surprisingly light in my setup.

I also want to emphasize -- I think the Forte IIIs sound MUCH better when pulled out at least a foot if not two feet from the wall. Up against the wall, they lose the soundstage and the magic in my experience. I would greatly encourage anybody who feels hamstrung by the 2 to 10 inches that's advised in the manual to try this! And yes - I am fully aware that lightens up the bass. A no-brainer of a tradeoff for me!

And lastly, yes, I do have a question! I feel the screaming weakness of these speakers is the footers. I shudder to think how great these speakers could be on some decent spikes or after-market footers. I am very curious what folks here have been able to do, if anything, to address this. I spoke about the issue this week to a well-known manufacturer of isolation footers and he said he wasn't sure what to recommend. Looks risky drilling into that cabinet, just about anywhere you pick. Thoughts???
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Tyson on 25 Nov 2020, 05:36 pm
Hi all - I'm an old AC member who hasn't been posting much here in the past couple years, partly because I am enjoying my Forte IIIs so much! Switched from the Rethm Maargas, which were wonderful, and have been amazed to find that I actually like the Forte IIIs better. But I do agree with Tyson and others that, their name notwithstanding, the Forte IIIs do sound better at lower and medium volumes. I had been wondering whether to blame it on my Coincident 300B monoblocks. Now I think I am ready to try the GR Research upgrade kit. I am wondering whether folks find that it improves the sound even at lower volumes, and whether the bass output is increased at all volume levels? I like others have also found that the bass of the Forte IIIs is surprisingly light in my setup.

I also want to emphasize -- I think the Forte IIIs sound MUCH better when pulled out at least a foot if not two feet from the wall. Up against the wall, they lose the soundstage and the magic in my experience. I would greatly encourage anybody who feels hamstrung by the 2 to 10 inches that's advised in the manual to try this! And yes - I am fully aware that lightens up the bass. A no-brainer of a tradeoff for me!

And lastly, yes, I do have a question! I feel the screaming weakness of these speakers is the footers. I shudder to think how great these speakers could be on some decent spikes or after-market footers. I am very curious what folks here have been able to do, if anything, to address this. I spoke about the issue this week to a well-known manufacturer of isolation footers and he said he wasn't sure what to recommend. Looks risky drilling into that cabinet, just about anywhere you pick. Thoughts???

After the upgrade the Forte III is not light in the bass at all.  If you do the upgrade, you'll see a big improvement there.  And not just louder bass, but cleaner and punchier bass, even at low volumes.  Because the box is made more inert, which means the drivers produce a cleaner, clearer sound, at all volume levels. 

Re: your amp's power:  the 300b is not the problem.  I run mine with a Type 45 amp (1.5 watts), a 2a3 amp (4 watts) and a 300b amp (7 watts) all the time and the Type 45 is the only one that I feel can't rock out at extreme levels.  So the issue is definitely not your amp, it's the speakers.  The stock Forte IIIs have this weird characteristic, if you push them they sound harsh and muddy at the same time.  BOTH of those problems are fixed with the upgrade. 

Re: the footers - I use some rubber/cork industrial footers that are used under things like generators to reduce vibrations in a house or business.  I actually use it only under the front of the speaker so that it gives me about a 10 degree tilt back, which I find really lets the mids and highs come alive because the horns are very directional on this speaker (which is something I really like about them).  Here's the link to exactly what I use:

https://www.amazon.com/PneumaticPlus-Anti-Vibration-Rubber-isolation/dp/B073R6KMYK
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: captainkrunchz on 28 Dec 2020, 07:32 pm
Here my first speaker's network build with Danny's kit.  Listening to it now before I move on to the second speaker.  Hearing more detail.  Bass has more punch.  Overall more clarity. 

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218881)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: choff on 14 Feb 2021, 04:24 am
Forte III Speaker....owners and seekers

If you have spent even a little time running  thru this thread and getting a sense of what Danny and Tyson found and implemented to improve the stock Klipsch  Forte III's, I will start by saying....... you have spent your time wisely. 

The speakers are wonderful stock,  but one quick look.inside reveals a large box with loads of resonance inducing problems and a very pedestrian but typical factory build crossover. 

From the moment I purchased and hooked the Forte III's into my system (just over a year ago) I loved most everything, accept I had real problems with the low end.  Any bass heavy albums sounded boomy  and flabby.  It was a real disappointment given the money I had spent and time invested thinking I had selected the best speakers for my system, room and taste.

I'll have more to add on my upgrade build soon, but I would just like to say now how I feel very fortunate to have connected with this thread and folks like Danny and Tyson that have made it possible to  significantly upgrade these speakers.   Many thanks to you both....cheers!!!
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: coverto on 14 Mar 2021, 03:39 am
Well, I've been edging closer to pulling the trigger on the GR upgrade kit, when lo and behold - the Forte IVs! Interesting review and, apart from the upgraded midrange driver, very interesting about the revamp of the crossover network and seems like they may have incorporated some of Danny's ideas with the steeper slope ... thoughts here???

I wonder how a GR-modded Forte III would compare to these IVs? And I of course wonder whether Danny might develop a Forte IV upgrade kit...

https://www.audioadvice.com/videos-reviews/klipsch-forte-iv-loudspeakers-review/
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: rotts4u on 30 Mar 2021, 03:38 am
Thanks everyone for the posts above. I just bought my first Klipsch Forte III and braced them as shown above. What is the difference in NO REZ and the foam that came in the Forte from Klipsch?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: corndog71 on 30 Mar 2021, 03:48 pm
Thanks everyone for the posts above. I just bought my first Klipsch Forte III and braced them as shown above. What is the difference in NO REZ and the foam that came in the Forte from Klipsch?

No Rez isn't just foam.  It has a heavy layer that sticks to the inside of the cabinet and reduces cabinet vibrations.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: choff on 30 Mar 2021, 04:04 pm
To me the application of the no-Rez may be the most important part of the upgrade.  The cabinet has no resonance now. Very easy to tell by knocking on the sides of a cabinet before and after.  It takes a lot of work, to do all the damping and bracing, which is why Klipsch skips this critical step, but man does it make a difference when completed.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: captainkrunchz on 10 Jun 2021, 09:06 pm
I am seeking feedback on my acoustic measurement post performing the GR-Research upgrade.  The speakers sound very good to me, but not sure about what I am seeing in the measurement below.  Here are the specifics:



(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225465)
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 11 Jun 2021, 12:09 am
Is this one speaker in the middle of the room, or both being measured at once?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: captainkrunchz on 11 Jun 2021, 11:27 am
Is this one speaker in the middle of the room, or both being measured at once?

Both speakers are being measure at once.  Been watching a lot of YouTube and enjoying the (steep) learning curve for now :).  Am I doing this wrong?
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 11 Jun 2021, 12:17 pm
No worries, In order to measure a speaker, it needs to be one at a time, with the mic roughly one meter (3ft 3in) away in the middle of fhe room.

Otherwise, you're more likely to get lots of peaks and dips from both speakers as well as reflections, like your graph showes, which is more a measurement of your room, rather than the speakers themselves.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: genjamon on 11 Jun 2021, 07:08 pm
Depends on the measurement goals.  If he's trying to measure the speakers to see if his upgrades worked, then yeah, one speaker at a time and eliminating room effects is key. 

But if the goal is proper integration with the room, then measuring as he has done is the better approach.  Now this measurement serves as a baseline, and he can tweak room positioning of the speakers, listening position, room treatments and/or active measures to try and get further smoothing to improve the in-room performance under his circumstances.

But what level of smoothing is applied to this measurement?  Also, did you intentionally leave out the bass frequencies? 
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: choff on 11 Jun 2021, 09:23 pm
I prescribed to the rudimentary theory of “trust thy ears” .....which has informed me after many listening sessions in past few months that this upgrade is absolutely essential if you love the speakers even just a little. The results continue to amaze....thanks again to Richie and Tyson  :thumb:
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Jun 2021, 12:26 pm
Depends on the measurement goals.  If he's trying to measure the speakers to see if his upgrades worked, then yeah, one speaker at a time and eliminating room effects is key. 

But if the goal is proper integration with the room, then measuring as he has done is the better approach.  Now this measurement serves as a baseline, and he can tweak room positioning of the speakers, listening position, room treatments and/or active measures to try and get further smoothing to improve the in-room performance under his circumstances.

But what level of smoothing is applied to this measurement?  Also, did you intentionally leave out the bass frequencies?

Even when taking a room response measurement you never measure both speakers at the same time with a mono signal. You have to take them on one at a time to get the real signal from each speaker.
Title: Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
Post by: genjamon on 17 Jun 2021, 01:04 pm
Ok, duh, thanks Danny