6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled

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bsun

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6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« on: 28 Feb 2009, 01:37 pm »
Been reading this forum for a long time. This is my first post.

Have been using 9bst for quite a while and like it a lot. Thinking the SST series are lot better I purchased a 6BSST for my front left, center, and right channels and two channels of 9bst for rear speakers.
First, I used stereo direct mode of my processor and listened to some CDs with the 6BSST. What I found out is that while the resolution is higher, bass more pronounced, the sound stage is wider, more effortless, more open, and deeper than that of 9bst, the music itself is not necessarily more enjoyable to listen than the 9bst. To my ear, the music is less smooth,  brighter with the 6bsst than with the 9bst. I want to point out that the differences I mentioned are there only to a small degree.
For movie playback, the difference between 9bst and 6bsst is only subtle at best. In fact, I will be hard pressed to point out which one is better.

When in doubt, I always asked my wife for an opinion with her better ears. The conclusion: It is not worth the upgrade.

I do not want to believe this. Something must be wrong in my system setups. There must be bottlenecks or weak links in my system that prevented the 6bsst from revealing its full potentials. So here is the list of the equipment I have. Would you please help me diagnostic my system problems.

dvd player: denon 2910
processor: arcam av8
sepakers: front and left: paradigm stuio 40 v2; center: studio v2. rears: studio 20 v2.
interconnect: outlaw audio interconnect
speaker wires: home depot power cord 10 AWG.
room: basement, non acoustic treated. medium site.

Thank you all


b5pt9

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #1 on: 28 Feb 2009, 02:43 pm »
Thinking the SST series are lot better

Hi and welcome.  Based on above quote and considering your current system I would tend to think you were over-estimating the improvement to be had by upgrading to SST amps.

rob80b

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #2 on: 28 Feb 2009, 07:02 pm »
Hi bsun,

Your observations are similar to what I experienced after swapping out my 3BST for the 4BSST,
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=51800.msg490481#msg490481
Let your 6BSST bed in for a few days and see if you feel the same way, the differences aren't dramatic but the SST is definitely an improvement over the ST, plus you've got increased head room on dynamics. The perceived brightness which I also experienced on first listen dissipated after a few days and I began to really appreciate the cleaner extended top end of the SST.

Robert

Mag

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #3 on: 28 Feb 2009, 08:07 pm »
As I think back I don't know if I recall the proper sequence of my upgrades. My Panasonic dvd player was a weak link. Upgrading to a Sony dvd player immediately made the music more vibrant. Switching my Paradigm Studio 100 v2 from the 3b-st to a 3b-sst brought out a airiness to the high frequencies that the 3b-st doesn't have. This sounded foreign to me and took getting use to, but I knew it was better sound than anything I had heard before coming from a stereo. This is probably due to the linear highs of the sst that don't roll off or distort like other amps do. The smoothness of the highs were apparent on my test track by David Arkenstone, Frontier- Main theme, where on previous amps used the French Horn would distort, not as much with the st, but the sst plays it without distortion. I previously thought the distortion was in the recording where the mics were overloaded. This track however shows that lesser amps distort these upper frequencies with their non-linear performance.

Secondly what I found using an Equalizer was that inferior equipment coupled to Bryston products serves only to veil or mask their superior output performance.

Third, in an untreated room the more linear highs reflecting off the walls maybe contributing to your perception that the sst isn't as smooth as the st. In my room using acoustic panels helped focus the sound and bring out more detail, albeit only marginally.

Although the sst is perceived to be brighter, IMO this is due to you not being accustom to the elite undistorted sound of this quality amp. Give it a few weeks of listening and your mind and ears will adjust to the new sound.


Mag

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #4 on: 1 Mar 2009, 01:11 am »
I reviewed the Denon dvd 2900 and IMO I would replace this unit. From what I read this unit is fairly old model and at best average sound quality. Also ADC and DAC have really improved in the last few years.

Phil A

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #5 on: 1 Mar 2009, 01:17 am »
I reviewed the Denon dvd 2900 and IMO I would replace this unit. From what I read this unit is fairly old model and at best average sound quality. Also ADC and DAC have really improved in the last few years.

I heard the Denon when it first came out and wasn't very impressed with its CD playback in the slightest.  Many universal players are jacks of all trades and masters of none.  Even my Marantz DV9600 is OK on CDs.  It is excellent on DVD-As and decent on SACD.  I may have it modded to improve SACD playback in the near future.  A source component can make a huge difference.

werd

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #6 on: 1 Mar 2009, 01:19 am »
I reviewed the Denon dvd 2900 and IMO I would replace this unit. From what I read this unit is fairly old model and at best average sound quality. Also ADC and DAC have really improved in the last few years.

I heard the Denon when it first came out and wasn't very impressed with its CD playback in the slightest.  Many universal players are jacks of all trades and masters of none.  Even my Marantz DV9600 is OK on CDs.  It is excellent on DVD-As and decent on SACD.  I may have it modded to improve SACD playback in the near future.  A source component can make a huge difference.

that marantz 9600 is a great transport for cd though. I heard with my perpetual tech and would love to hear it again with my bda-1

Phil A

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #7 on: 1 Mar 2009, 02:34 am »
I reviewed the Denon dvd 2900 and IMO I would replace this unit. From what I read this unit is fairly old model and at best average sound quality. Also ADC and DAC have really improved in the last few years.

I heard the Denon when it first came out and wasn't very impressed with its CD playback in the slightest.  Many universal players are jacks of all trades and masters of none.  Even my Marantz DV9600 is OK on CDs.  It is excellent on DVD-As and decent on SACD.  I may have it modded to improve SACD playback in the near future.  A source component can make a huge difference.


that marantz 9600 is a great transport for cd though. I heard with my perpetual tech and would love to hear it again with my bda-1

Yes it is.  Before the BCD-1, I was using the DV9600 with my Micromega DuoPro DAC.  I actually compared the combo to the BCD-1.  Very similar tonal qualities and imaging.  The bass was muddier and not as crisp in the Micromega DAC which is quite old and the BCD-1 was a bit better overall.  I've moved the DAC around a few times (I got it cheap but it's too good to sell for what I could get for it).  I just moved it from the bedroom system back to the basement system.  The Sony 2000ES CD/SACD changer is almost as good as a transport as the DV9600 (very close).  I now have SACD and great CD playback in the basement system.  The bedroom and main system back to each other and I already have analog cables to the bedroom system and have made balanced ones for the BCD-1 waiting for the SP3, although I don't expect to see it before CEDIA in Sept.

mv038856

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #8 on: 1 Mar 2009, 01:44 pm »
Been reading this forum for a long time. This is my first post.

Have been using 9bst for quite a while and like it a lot. Thinking the SST series are lot better I purchased a 6BSST for my front left, center, and right channels and two channels of 9bst for rear speakers.
First, I used stereo direct mode of my processor and listened to some CDs with the 6BSST. What I found out is that while the resolution is higher, bass more pronounced, the sound stage is wider, more effortless, more open, and deeper than that of 9bst, the music itself is not necessarily more enjoyable to listen than the 9bst. To my ear, the music is less smooth,  brighter with the 6bsst than with the 9bst. I want to point out that the differences I mentioned are there only to a small degree.
For movie playback, the difference between 9bst and 6bsst is only subtle at best. In fact, I will be hard pressed to point out which one is better.

When in doubt, I always asked my wife for an opinion with her better ears. The conclusion: It is not worth the upgrade.

Hi bsun,

your observation regarding the 9B ST is in line with my observation that I have been describing in this forum a few times that, IMHO, the 9B ST is sonically very close to the SST line and in my opinion outperforms the older ST-designs in the 3B ST, 4B ST, 5B ST, 7B ST and 8B ST. I had made the comparison with the 4B ST and a 9B ST THX a few years ago. The 9B ST is, after all, the very only classic ST amplifier that Bryston offers an upgrade to SST for. This indicates that besides the output devices that are replaced in the upgrade, the 9B ST has most of the improvements that make up the SST line. Having had a channel module of a 9B ST in my hands, I noticed that it really is packed. The 9B SST didn't receive the power upgrade that the other SST amps received. I suspect the limited room on the amp modules being the reason for this decision.

Nevertheless, I personally upgraded to SST amplifiers because there have been a few tempting second hand opportunities... ;)

Cheers!

Markus

werd

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #9 on: 2 Mar 2009, 01:52 am »
I reviewed the Denon dvd 2900 and IMO I would replace this unit. From what I read this unit is fairly old model and at best average sound quality. Also ADC and DAC have really improved in the last few years.

I heard the Denon when it first came out and wasn't very impressed with its CD playback in the slightest.  Many universal players are jacks of all trades and masters of none.  Even my Marantz DV9600 is OK on CDs.  It is excellent on DVD-As and decent on SACD.  I may have it modded to improve SACD playback in the near future.  A source component can make a huge difference.

Hi Phil, what r u using for speakers in the basement with the 9600, r u also using any bryston gear with it? I think bryston and new generation marantz might have some good synergy together.(just an intuition, havent heard em together yet).


that marantz 9600 is a great transport for cd though. I heard with my perpetual tech and would love to hear it again with my bda-1

Yes it is.  Before the BCD-1, I was using the DV9600 with my Micromega DuoPro DAC.  I actually compared the combo to the BCD-1.  Very similar tonal qualities and imaging.  The bass was muddier and not as crisp in the Micromega DAC which is quite old and the BCD-1 was a bit better overall.  I've moved the DAC around a few times (I got it cheap but it's too good to sell for what I could get for it).  I just moved it from the bedroom system back to the basement system.  The Sony 2000ES CD/SACD changer is almost as good as a transport as the DV9600 (very close).  I now have SACD and great CD playback in the basement system.  The bedroom and main system back to each other and I already have analog cables to the bedroom system and have made balanced ones for the BCD-1 waiting for the SP3, although I don't expect to see it before CEDIA in Sept.

Phil A

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #10 on: 2 Mar 2009, 02:57 am »
The link to my systems is listed in my signature.  The DV9600 is still in the main system.  I have my Sony 2000ES, Micromega DAC and PS3 in the basement with B&W P6s along with other stuff.

werd

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #11 on: 2 Mar 2009, 04:44 am »
Hey those systems look nice, and particular the basement setup 8). Did u consider the bda-1 over the bcd? I bet u that marantz9600 partnered with that dac would be the goods.. not that it matters the bcd isnt a wrong purchase by any means. I dont see any conditioning there or am i missing it?

What ever they say about gear, sitting infront of a great lookin rig definetely makes it a far more enjoyable experience.... and i am sure u agree.

Phil A

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #12 on: 2 Mar 2009, 05:10 am »
Hey those systems look nice, and particular the basement setup 8). Did u consider the bda-1 over the bcd? I bet u that marantz9600 partnered with that dac would be the goods.. not that it matters the bcd isnt a wrong purchase by any means. I dont see any conditioning there or am i missing it?

What ever they say about gear, sitting infront of a great lookin rig definetely makes it a far more enjoyable experience.... and i am sure u agree.

I got the BCD-1 when it first came out a year and a half ago.  I thought about waiting (for the BDA-1) but I really only need a single CD source.  The Micormega DuoPro DAC is quite good.  The only thing I might have wanted a newer DAC for for was something I just bought a couple of mos. ago but for what I'll be using it for I can live w/o it.  I'm filling a 500G hard drive with WMA audio lossless (and compressing it for my Zune for the car).  I have a Western Digtal HD Media Player (I haven't used it yet which has two USB ins an HDMI out, composite video and analog audio out and an optical digital out) and I've loaded a few digital copies of movies I got with Blu-Rays and almost 3,000 songs and will probably add 500-1,000 more and then bring the device upstairs for the main system.  Eventually the digital out of the SP3 will feed a digital input on the other side of the wall in the bedroom system (Marantz 6003 rec'r) and vice versa and I may run a digital connection to the basement too as I ran coax down there.  When the SP3 comes out I've already made balanced cables for it and have a long single ended RCA ready for the bedroom so I'll get to enjoy the BCD-1 in both systems.  I'm also going to have the 2nd HDMI out of each system into the other.  I have the Oppo 980 in the bedroom system and Samsung 2500 Blu-Ray player and expect to have the Oppo Blu-Ray player soon.  I have those pyramid repeaters so I can even control stuff in the other room.  I picked up a bin full of stuff at Circuit City yesterday and the $25 total included the bin.  Lots of various component cables and other things including a few audio/video distribution devices (e.g. Audio Authority) they used in the store.  It has connections for digital audio and various video connections and if I want to route digital stuff all over I can have plenty of fun.

werd

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #13 on: 2 Mar 2009, 04:04 pm »
Phil do u think u will ever start getting into pc based audio,(laptop as a source or something like that)?

werd

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #14 on: 2 Mar 2009, 04:05 pm »
O nvm i just notice your western digital HD..... :oops:

Phil A

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #15 on: 2 Mar 2009, 10:39 pm »
O nvm i just notice your western digital HD..... :oops:

I thought about networking.  I have a MAC G5 Tower with 4G Ram I'm using now to mainly surf.  I have a Dell XPS410 with 3G Ram that's in the basement, another older XP machine upstairs and I picked up a laptop (but will mainly use it with a colorimeter to adjust my displays) that's just basic - Emachines (D620 I think).  I even have an old Pentium 266 in the closet upstairs I dragged out the other day for an old Pronto 2000 file as I moved the Pronto to the basement (I had it there at one point) and picked up a Harmony One for the main system (I have a Pronto Neo in the bedroom).  When I say the Western Digital Device, I bought it for it's small size and portability much the way I picked up a basic laptop vs. dragging a Tower and Monitor to each of my systems when I get around to calibrate the displays.  The way I have things set-up I just find it simpler and cheap for me (basically under $180 for both the hard drive which I can use for other things besides music and also the Western Digital Media Player).  I actually started out with the intent of using the PS3 in the basement as a music server (and I still might do ltd. stuff with it) and had some issues with security settings on Windows, played with it a couple of times for an hour or two and then saw the (500G) Western Digital Hard Drive on sale at Target for $77.77 and then picked up the media player for $99.99.  I also toyed with the idea of a home theater PC/media server and actually building one but for the price (and probably some of my sanity) I decided that what I got is best for my use at this time and in the scheme of things it's very reasonable.

werd

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #16 on: 3 Mar 2009, 04:06 am »
Phil did u buy those Thiel 3.7 new?

Phil A

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #17 on: 3 Mar 2009, 11:53 am »
Phil did u buy those Thiel 3.7 new?

Yes - had 7.2s and sold them and then got the 3.7s.

werd

Re: 6bsst vs 9bst: puzzled
« Reply #18 on: 4 Mar 2009, 04:08 am »
Phil did u buy those Thiel 3.7 new?

Yes - had 7.2s and sold them and then got the 3.7s.

Phil what did u buy first? the thiels or your bryston gear, specifically the 14b?