BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready

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vklyushnikov

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #220 on: 1 Aug 2016, 07:23 pm »
In my case everything is opposite: Roon is much sharper and bass has more weight than with MPD. Mystique  :)

Dave Jameson

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #221 on: 1 Aug 2016, 11:03 pm »
I still maintain Roon is superior with all PCM resolutions. I say "PCM" because I'm just now playing with DSD files ripped from SACD and each of the 18 albums MPD sound much, much better than in MPD than Roon! :dunno: The sound is clearly more dynamic via MPD. Roon is congested and seems to have a phase issue with higher frequencies when playing DSD. Playback is via the same USB cable and DAC.

So is this a case of MPD being more honest to the file, where Roon is manipulating somehow? Is MPD resolving some level of dynamic compression in PCM files?

DSD is barely on my radar, so Roon is my pick for its superior PCM sonics...in my system

Grit

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #222 on: 1 Aug 2016, 11:16 pm »
I still maintain Roon is superior with all PCM resolutions. I say "PCM" because I'm just now playing with DSD files ripped from SACD and each of the 18 albums MPD sound much, much better than in MPD than Roon! :dunno: The sound is clearly more dynamic via MPD. Roon is congested and seems to have a phase issue with higher frequencies when playing DSD. Playback is via the same USB cable and DAC.

So is this a case of MPD being more honest to the file, where Roon is manipulating somehow? Is MPD resolving some level of dynamic compression in PCM files?

DSD is barely on my radar, so Roon is my pick for its superior PCM sonics...in my system

I'm really curious to know which format is the more honest. My first goal has always been to get my music to sound as close to the original as possible. Once that goal is realized, I can use filters or change what music I listen to, or whatever. My boggle now is figuring out which is the more ACCURATE of the two.  :scratch:
« Last Edit: 2 Aug 2016, 10:17 am by Grit »

Krutsch

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #223 on: 2 Aug 2016, 02:04 pm »
Actually I think that Roon on BDP-2 sounds much more detailed than MPD with more extended highs and lows and better instrument separation.

<snip, snip>


You know, I've had the opposite experience with my BDP-1. I wonder if the stronger CPU and faster Ethernet interface on the BDP-2 makes the difference.

I can't shake the feeling that MPD is "louder" somehow, but I've checked the run-time MPD settings and there is no mixer defined or anything else I can see that isn't normal/default - seem to be bit-perfect, straight-through; except that MPD seems to be padding everything to 32-bit (i.e. format: SE_32LE), but I think this is the default behavior and the rate during playback exactly matches the input audio file.

Listening continues... both Roon and MPD sound pretty nice.

Krutsch

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #224 on: 5 Aug 2016, 02:51 pm »

Listening continues... both Roon and MPD sound pretty nice.

I think I've finished my listening impressions and it's a victory for MPD. There is just more impact/weight/texture to the music with MPD; Roon, for whatever reason, sounds compressed/congested with headphone listening. It's not night-and-day, of course, but I find myself wanting to switch back to MPD when I am listening to something I am really enjoying with Roon.

That said, I am going to keep Roon and use it to explore new music, which where the Roon UI really excels; I can do that for hours on-end.

One last note on this: when switching between Roon and MPD, I am noticing odd display behavior on my BDP-1 and have learned to power cycle when switching between services. For example, after switching, the second line of the display will often stay blank and not display the playing artist. And, after switching, sometimes the display will go blank and not come back on, at all, unless I press buttons on the front of the player (I have the display set to always on).

Otherwise, Roon playback is robust and works without any issues (after the latest Roon update). Nice work, Bryston!

vklyushnikov

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #225 on: 5 Aug 2016, 03:12 pm »
I have bad news - at least for my setup. I captured Roon endpoint output using ALSA tee plugin to wav file - and it is not bit perfect at all. There are lot of PCM samples lost. This dropouts are very short and cannot be heared as clicks, but simply change sound a bit. Moreover resulting file is one second shorter then original track, it looks "faster" than original track - due to samples lost. In contrast MPD output captured this way is absolute copy of original track. This test is very simple and can be reproduced by anyone who understands Linux command line and ALSA - I simply stop Roon Ready service, edit /dev/shm/raat.conf and replace "hw:0,1" with "tee:'hw,0,1',/mnt/img/out.wav,wav". Then I start Roon endpoint manually.
I will continue investigation at weekend and contact Roon support of course. But for now their network protocol seems to be not reliable - while it claims to have error recovery. Please see dropped frames in  picture below:



CanadianMaestro

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #226 on: 5 Aug 2016, 03:38 pm »
How do I switch on/off the display on my BDP-1?
From my BR-2 remote or manually on faceplate buttons?

thanks

Krutsch

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #227 on: 5 Aug 2016, 03:40 pm »

I will continue investigation at weekend and contact Roon support of course. But for now their network protocol seems to be not reliable - while it claims to have error recovery. Please see dropped frames in  picture below:


Wow. You should post this over on the Roon community forum: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/a-better-sound-from-roon/3621/93

vklyushnikov

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #228 on: 5 Aug 2016, 03:49 pm »
Will do of course. Just will perform some more investigation and look into Roon logs first.

Dave Jameson

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #229 on: 5 Aug 2016, 04:03 pm »
I have bad news - at least for my setup. I captured Roon endpoint output using ALSA tee plugin to wav file - and it is not bit perfect at all. There are lot of PCM samples lost. This dropouts are very short and cannot be heared as clicks, but simply change sound a bit. Moreover resulting file is one second shorter then original track, it looks "faster" than original track - due to samples lost. In contrast MPD output captured this way is absolute copy of original track. This test is very simple and can be reproduced by anyone who understands Linux command line and ALSA - I simply stop Roon Ready service, edit /dev/shm/raat.conf and replace "hw:0,1" with "tee:'hw,0,1',/mnt/img/out.wav,wav". Then I start Roon endpoint manually.
I will continue investigation at weekend and contact Roon support of course. But for now their network protocol seems to be not reliable - while it claims to have error recovery. Please see dropped frames in  picture below:



Excellent post! Fascinating. I wonder if this gives the illusion of a more dynamic and vivid presentation? Certainly that's how I hear it at home. Would be interesting to see Roon's response and the possibility this issue is exacerbated on some networks more than others...if it is indeed brought on by their network protocol.

vklyushnikov

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #230 on: 5 Aug 2016, 04:35 pm »
I hear exactly same as you - more dynamic and sharp. But I started investigation because different records seem to have something similar between them - some coloration

tishbite

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #231 on: 5 Aug 2016, 06:53 pm »
I have bad news - at least for my setup. I captured Roon endpoint output using ALSA tee plugin to wav file - and it is not bit perfect at all. There are lot of PCM samples lost. This dropouts are very short and cannot be heared as clicks, but simply change sound a bit. Moreover resulting file is one second shorter then original track, it looks "faster" than original track - due to samples lost. In contrast MPD output captured this way is absolute copy of original track. This test is very simple and can be reproduced by anyone who understands Linux command line and ALSA - I simply stop Roon Ready service, edit /dev/shm/raat.conf and replace "hw:0,1" with "tee:'hw,0,1',/mnt/img/out.wav,wav". Then I start Roon endpoint manually.
I will continue investigation at weekend and contact Roon support of course. But for now their network protocol seems to be not reliable - while it claims to have error recovery. Please see dropped frames in  picture below:



Excellent and helpful analysis. Perhaps explains the coloration I hear on my system when using Roon (I've a PC -- perhaps would be different on a Mac?). In my system MPD is fabulously transparent and crisp (across all frequencies).

vklyushnikov

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #232 on: 5 Aug 2016, 08:04 pm »
I feel that there is nothing to ask Roon. Protocol is UDP based. Why there is possibility to recover broken packet, there is no way to recover lost packets. The only way to improve their delivery is sophisticated network setup with managed network switch. Otherwise you can't be sure that your audio stream is 100% bitperfect. Its a fun to see audiophile zines advertising Roon. They tell nothing about network setup and packet loss.

zoom25

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #233 on: 5 Aug 2016, 09:10 pm »
Wow. Interesting posts. All this time I was confused assuming why there was a difference between two bit-perfect streams. I've been on MPD for 10 days. Will hit Roon up again tonight for a bit.

It would be interesting to have a Bryston player that could run the Roon Core in it....BDP-3?

vklyushnikov

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #234 on: 5 Aug 2016, 09:18 pm »
No way. Roon Core is too heavy for low powered fanless audiophile player

Marius

Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #235 on: 5 Aug 2016, 09:22 pm »
Hi Chris,


Switched off Roon Ready, because of several technical hiccups. Back to MPD.


Now this happens:


 


No automatic reconfiguration, had to reboot already.


MPD won't stick, clicking start/stop:


 
Please help?
Cheers,
Marius
 

zoom25

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #236 on: 5 Aug 2016, 09:36 pm »
No way. Roon Core is too heavy for low powered fanless audiophile player

Hence the suggestion for BDP-3?

Also, theoretically speaking, if possible would it be better to send Roon's output from my Mac running Roon Core to BDP-1's USB input via a hardwired USB connection instead over a network?

Grit

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #237 on: 6 Aug 2016, 04:34 am »
I feel that there is nothing to ask Roon. Protocol is UDP based. Why there is possibility to recover broken packet, there is no way to recover lost packets. The only way to improve their delivery is sophisticated network setup with managed network switch. Otherwise you can't be sure that your audio stream is 100% bitperfect. Its a fun to see audiophile zines advertising Roon. They tell nothing about network setup and packet loss.

Thanks so much for your effort in this. I was going nuts trying to figure out why there was a difference. This certainly would explain it.

Could Roon switch to TCP to fix that issue? And what could I do to my network setup to fix that issue? I currently have two switches between the server and the bdp (not using wifi for this part of my network).

Could Bryston make any modifications to the BDP software  to help  (increase network buffer size, update NIC drivers, etc?)

Grit

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #238 on: 6 Aug 2016, 11:56 am »
Will do of course. Just will perform some more investigation and look into Roon logs first.

Please link the post when you do. I'd love to follow it over there also.

vklyushnikov

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