Alignment Issue on Amadeus (?)

drubin · « **Reply #100 on:** 25 Jul 2012, 01:42 am »

Quote from: jshefik on 25 Jul 2012, 01:31 am

I can't believe this table has been out 3 years, and this is the first it has come to light??!!

Doesn't exactly instill confidence in WTL and its principals, does it?

I expect this is not the end of the story.

gagamut · « **Reply #101 on:** 25 Jul 2012, 02:05 am »

Quote from: jshefik on 25 Jul 2012, 01:31 am

James,

The grid/protractor on the WTL site is incorrect. I spoke with Firebaugh today, he confirmed that the head shell angle should be 19 degrees. I haven't had a need to check the grid, so wasn't aware it gives a different result. I'll obviously contact WTL and get it fixed. Apologies for the confusion.. I don't know how that happened. Come to think of it, I've adjusted a local friends 'table with the grid a while back.. he had moved the head shell and I had him print out the grid. It sounded better than the much more than 19 degrees he had before.. but I couldn't say if it sounded better than the proper 19 degree angle. I'd be surprised if a 9 or 10 degree angle works better across whole surface of the record than Firebaugh's 19 degrees. He put a ton of effort into figuring this out.

best,
mike

E-mail just received from Mike Pranka.
I recognized the beginning of an album not as together as say after the first cut with the now deemed incorrect grid, but I am getting better overall subtlety and nuance with it. Maybe my truth is somewhere in between. I can't believe this table has been out 3 years, and this is the first it has come to light??!!

Hi Mike,you say the protractor is incorrect(1 7/8),so did you ask Firebaugh what i s the right protractor??thanks

Sam

tricka · « **Reply #102 on:** 25 Jul 2012, 11:27 am »

Yeah...well....set to grid (9 degrees) sounds a truck load better to me than the set to 19 degrees.

jshefik · « **Reply #103 on:** 25 Jul 2012, 12:28 pm »

Yes, it was not subtle. Everything is so much more interesting and transparent than at the factory set 19. Now we've really started it!

All through this discovery process, the stone cold doubters(without any investigation) is really quite astounding. "You must have moved the head shell" when it did not align to grid. And now " I can't believe it sounds better" without trying the grid alignment. Isn't anyone curious anymore?

Erocka2000 · « **Reply #104 on:** 31 Jul 2012, 07:50 pm »

Just to follow-up this thread. I ignored (the now incorrect) protractor and set my head shell to the confirmed 19 degrees. I have to say, I'm liking what I hear. There is more sparkle in the highs that was missing from the 9 degree angle I was using. Perhaps that Firebaugh guy was on to something. Here's hoping that the new, correct protractor (once made available) will confirm the head shell angle I've set.

threadkiller · « **Reply #105 on:** 31 Jul 2012, 08:38 pm »

I'm moving mine this weekend. Will report back.
The error is supposedly being fixed soon on the WTL site, they'll put up a new printable grid. I'm so curious to see where mine lines up.

tricka · « **Reply #106 on:** 31 Jul 2012, 10:02 pm »

Gosh - this IS interesting. I'm certainly opened minded to believe what I am hearing is different not better.

I'll shift mine back as well over the weekend and have another listen. Although I don't know about you guys but every time I touch my cart I get very nervous after lunching my last one.

Thanks for the follow up. I'm sure the designer is right - perhaps the 9 degrees just gives a different presentation that I like.

I'd say that WTL owes jshefik a beer for discovering the error in their grid. I owe him a beer for discovering 9 degrees sounds great as well.

Happy listening to everyone.

OH BTW today I am taking delivery of a friend's Spendor SA1's + Leben 600 to mind for a while. It is a magic combo. I love the little SA1's.

drubin · « **Reply #107 on:** 31 Jul 2012, 10:08 pm »

Quote from: tricka on 31 Jul 2012, 10:02 pm

I'd say that WTL owes jshefik a beer for discovering the error in their grid.

Indeed.

jshefik · « **Reply #108 on:** 31 Jul 2012, 10:20 pm »

Quote from: tricka on 31 Jul 2012, 10:02 pm

I'd say that WTL owes jshefik a beer for discovering the error in their grid

If I had the resources, I would set up two WTA's with xx2's and the two different head shell angles side by side and have it out! Gee, I wonder who could do that?

It is curious that the incorrect grid angle is one half the factory 19 degree. I'll be keeping mine at the 9.5 for the foreseeable....In my case much better all around.

Erocka2000 · « **Reply #109 on:** 31 Jul 2012, 11:27 pm »

Quote from: tricka on 31 Jul 2012, 10:02 pm

OH BTW today I am taking delivery of a friend's Spendor SA1's + Leben 600 to mind for a while. It is a magic combo. I love the little SA1's.

Why can't I have friends like yours?! I've been dying for the Leben CS600 for a long time now. I might be taking the plunge come winter time. Though I also want to upgrade my speakers as well. Decisions, decisions.

threadkiller · « **Reply #110 on:** 1 Aug 2012, 04:54 am »

Boy, it would be nice to borrow a Leben 600 for a while. Lucky you.

As for the rest of us, looks like 19 it is. Mr F has confirmed it.
So for those of us who haven't had our head shell loosened, and for those that have, let the measuring and possible adjusting begin!
Go for the gold, gents! ( and maybe a lady or two)

tricka · « **Reply #111 on:** 1 Aug 2012, 08:41 am »

ha ha - mate - there are no ladies here: imagine that - a female audiophile! God save us. Is the man cave not a sacred shrine of all things male? ha ha.

I have the CS 600 hooked up now - well all I can say is the Melody 12a3 I have had for a while is crap in comparison. And it isn't a slouch. The CS 600 is a great amp - but you have to match with speakers carefully. It works wonderfully with the SA1's, less so with Ls3/5a's.

I was today hearing my mates Rogers Ls3/5a's (yup the original 15 ohm ones ) hooked up to a SS amp and they sounded fantastic. Gotta love someone that uses $2000 interconnects with a $300 dac (Schiit Bifrost). Crazy man.

Also had the pleasure of listening to a Linn LP 12 and TW Acustic Raven One back to back: I liked the LP12 into a Herron phono - but boy the TW into a Boulder phono (into a Boulder integrated and Crystal Mini's) didn't sound shabby either.

ha! he is a mad man. I love his place - like an Alladins cave of hi fi. every time I am there I looka round and there is something new shoved in the corner. This is a bloke with YG Carmel's parked in the corner because he has no where to put them atm.

At the moment at the 25-30 hr mark with my new (well apparently new) xx2 and its all over the place.

Have resorted to MOG out of the iPhone - don't laugh sounds great while cooking (lamb shanks - love winter!).

Cheeri Pip.
Andrew

Mike Pranka · « **Reply #112 on:** 1 Aug 2012, 04:36 pm »

Alignment trauma.. the grid that was on the blog was apparently created incorrectly. Firebaugh did the numbers and someone at the office turned it into a graphics file.. or whatever people who know how to use computers (not me) do. Hardly a cause for pain, suffering or a loss in confidence of Firebaugh or WTL. Anyone who has spent any time around Bill would find such an assertion laughable. The fixed head shell resulted in not many people using the grid.. and as it turns out, a shallower head shell angle isn't the end of the world, anyway. I'll listen to both angles and if anyone cares, will share my opinion.

Anonymous sniping regarding the principals (or even principles..) of WTL I find to be rude and unnecessary. The two men behind WTL have demonstrated over the course of decades a unique commitment to high performance audio. They are also well known to me and many others to be remarkably generous, honorable and kind men.

As mom would suggest.. if we don't have anything nice or constructive to say, then save it.

Mike

tricka · « **Reply #113 on:** 1 Aug 2012, 10:10 pm »

Mike
Please give us your 2 cents mate - I'd be interested in your listening impressions.

I don't think anyone was sniping - probably a little annoyed with you at first instance for dismissing the reported difference without investigation - ie your first instinct was to say "the problem is with you not us" - when in fact it was with you (ie WTL).

Personally I think that an error has been uncovered in the manual is a good thing and its great to get confirmation that the designer is 19 degrees.

Quote

Anonymous sniping regarding the principals (or even principles..) of WTL I find to be rude and unnecessary. The two men behind WTL have demonstrated over the course of decades a unique commitment to high performance audio. They are also well known to me and many others to be remarkably generous, honorable and kind men.

No one said the designer is anything but a great bloke - don't know where that came from.

Personally I think you are being all a little precious about this thread. No one is having a go at anyone and I agree, a simple error in the manual isn't a big deal. No one lost an eye.

I don't think anyone is anonymous - we are all owners who have spent (in nearly all cases) not an inconsiderable sum with WT/Dynavector - which helps to pay your bills I imagine.

Quote

As mom would suggest.. if we don't have anything nice or constructive to say, then save it.

I would have thought you would be thanking the peeps that found it for you rather than having a go at them.

Word to the wise : don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Cheers
Andrew

SteevA · « **Reply #114 on:** 1 Aug 2012, 10:21 pm »

Quote from: tricka on 1 Aug 2012, 08:41 am

ha ha - mate - there are no ladies here: imagine that - a female audiophile! God save us. Is the man cave not a sacred shrine of all things male? ha ha.

They do exist and they do ‘attend’ audio forums. However generally they do not announce their gender so as to avoid having to fend off a barrage of Neanderthal comments and being talked down to. I am aware of one who appears on various forums and is way more expert in all the really nerdy stuff than I could ever aspire to be. Has way better gear than me to.

Steve

tricka · « **Reply #115 on:** 1 Aug 2012, 10:51 pm »

Really - wow: that's amazing. Great to hear. I'm all for female audiophiles. The more the merrier.

happy hi fi.

threadkiller · « **Reply #116 on:** 1 Aug 2012, 11:39 pm »

Agreed. I find an independent woman's viewpoint on hi fi more spot on than the Neanderthals you refer to. I do get a bit sad, however, when the woman cowtows or defers to the male partner, who is usually way more clueless and ridiculous in his listening habits. So goes the way of the world.
So hell yes, encourage the woman folk. I have great respect for Elizabeth on Audiogon.
Plus, I hate mancaves...

gagamut · « **Reply #117 on:** 2 Aug 2012, 04:47 am »

Hi,today i found a updates Headshell Alignment Guide news from Well tempered Blog.but the scale is not 1:1

http://welltemperedlab.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/tracking-angle-analyzer-parts.pdf

gagamut · « **Reply #118 on:** 2 Aug 2012, 04:49 am »

and also have a Tracking Angle Analyzer,and Tracking Analyzer Parts

http://welltemperedlab.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/making-and-using-tracking-angle-analyzer.pdf
http://welltemperedlab.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/making-and-using-tracking-angle-analyzer.pdf

jshefik · « **Reply #119 on:** 2 Aug 2012, 05:01 am »

Quote from: tricka on 1 Aug 2012, 10:10 pm

Personally I think that an error has been uncovered in the manual is a good thing and its great to get confirmation that the designer is 19 degrees.

No one said the designer is anything but a great bloke - don't know where that came from.

I don't think anyone is anonymous - we are all owners who have spent (in nearly all cases) not an inconsiderable sum with WT/Dynavector - which helps to pay your bills I imagine.

I would have thought you would be thanking the peeps that found it for you rather than having a go at them.

Cheers
Andrew

Guess I'll not be getting a beer from WTL!

James