AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Well Tempered Lab => Topic started by: williamsims on 18 Dec 2012, 10:23 pm
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Hi, could anyone please advise whether or not this is a reasonable offer
"First model. Offered by original owner. Dealer dropped and chipped edge but chip is not loose and doesnt affect sound. Tone arm newly rewired by Joe De Phillips of Discovery Cable w/ 4 ft. of wire from rear of the arm. Manual, setup and alignment instructions, bearing silicone, record hold down, terminal block(not needed now), finger lift and applicator. Extras include Ringmat ( recommended) , acrylic smoke dust cover and terminal block (not needed now). All in excellent condition. Original arm box. 7/10 for age ONLY." Photos are at:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-well-tempered-classic-2012-11-19-analog-29631-clemson-sc
The seller wants $950 and it's been on the market for quite some time.
Thanks to anyone who responds!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=72469)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=72470)
Bill
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I'd say it is pretty reasonable, as many try to sell theirs at the above $1000 mark. Lovely 'table, indeed. The Discovery Cable re-wire is nice, too.
I tried selling mine for $650, and it was in nicer shape than this one...pretty immaculate, actually. It sat for a long time as well; even for my price. It had me stumped.
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I'm not into analog any more, but IMO, spend your bucks on the cartridge, wires etc. The turntable is secondary as long as its good. I had a tangential tracker back in the day. A good table. The cart was the deal.
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What's that weird bit on the platter?
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Don't know -- I'll ask the seller.
Thanks, guys, for your comments.
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I believe it's a chip missing from the platter. The ad copy states "Dealer dropped and chipped edge but chip is not loose and doesnt affect sound."
Kevin T
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Yeah, Kevin, that's what I thought at first, but if you look at the far upper right of the second photo, you'll see the same black squiggle -- on the opposite side of where the indentation is.
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That looks like a fingerlift for the arm. I think the chipped platter makes this a non-starter @$950. That's pretty ugly.
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Thanks for you thoughts, Mick. I tend to agree. I don't mind spending the $$$ for a more up to date model. The ad suggests that the owner bought the TT in the early '90s ("first model"). I think he's unrealistic. I'm determined to acquire a WTT but think I'll wait around for something in better shape.
Thanks to all who commented -- I really appreciate it.
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Thanks for you thoughts, Mick. I tend to agree. I don't mind spending the $$$ for a more up to date model. The ad suggests that the owner bought the TT in the early '90s ("first model"). I think he's unrealistic. I'm determined to acquire a WTT but think I'll wait around for something in better shape.
Thanks to all who commented -- I really appreciate it.
Another thing to consider...if you're really set on having this 'table...is to check out AA (the Asylum Trader pages). I believe there are a couple over there currently for sale for not much more than this asking price. As usual, no affiliation or anything. Just noticed is all. Good luck!
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I sold one beat to hell after USPS had their way with it for about $1200 a few (maybe 3?) years back. I had full disclosure and pictures of the damage--the plinth was crooked with a chunk of a corner missing and a crack, the square motor was dented. I did include an Arcici base and 440mla cartridge though.
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I'm not into analog any more, but IMO, spend your bucks on the cartridge, wires etc. The turntable is secondary as long as its good. I had a tangential tracker back in the day. A good table. The cart was the deal.
Oh, I hate to hijack the thread, and get all confrontational, but this is quite wrong (IMHO).
Without a great table and arm, you will not be able to get the best out of any cartridge. There are so many things that the table and arm are responsible for (before the cartridge comes into play), that are crucial for optimum playback.
The same cartridge will sound very different on different tables.
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Hi, Simoon, thanks for your comment.
Though new to the WTT, I'm an old hand at analogue. I'd much rather have a WTT with a Benz MZ gold than, say, a Denon DP29F with a Benz Wood SL.
Interesting, a guy on Audiogon has a 1998 WTT with 1998 Benz Ruby for sale for $2,000. $1,000 for a 14-year old 'table and 14 year-old cartridge. Does that make sense?
The WTT at $950 didn't sell, BTW.
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I'll keep my eyes open for you, a good one will turn up sooner or later.
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......
Without a great table and arm, you will not be able to get the best out of any cartridge. ......
I agree, and I have also recently discovered that the same goes for your phono stage. My current one is only revealing about 3/4 of what the cartridge/arm/deck combo is capable of extracting.
Steve
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OP,
The table looks too trashed... I'd pass. Just have patience and wait- something will come along.
Plus that cable is so long... and who knows what it sounds like...
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Thanks, everybody, for -- as we Soutnern boys say -- the "he'p!
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As Jsawyer has mentioned, there's a Well Tempered Classic over at AudioAsylum Marketplace for $1150. Looks to be in better shape than the one we've discussed
here. ( which is also listed @ AA Marketplace)
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Hi, Mick, thanks. I'd buy that one in a heartbeat only the seller insists on a local pickup. As his A'gon ad expires, I'll ask him if he'll ship. -- Bill
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And as I mentioned earlier, another guy has a great-looking one for sale but wants to include a 14-year old Benz Reference -- total package $2K. He may decide to separate after the ad has been up for a while.
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Hi, Mick, thanks. I'd buy that one in a heartbeat only the seller insists on a local pickup. As his A'gon ad expires, I'll ask him if he'll ship. -- Bill
Sorry....didn't see the "local pickup". Probably why it's still listed. We'd all love a local pick-up for a turntable or speakers for that matter.
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And as I mentioned earlier, another guy has a great-looking one for sale but wants to include a 14-year old Benz Reference -- total package $2K. He may decide to separate after the ad has been up for a while.
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At that price and without a discount, you'd be better off with a new Simplex.....maybe?
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The WT in the picture has a square motor and what appears to be the small record clamp. Doesn't that make it a 2nd generation WTT?
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No, I think it's the other way around...
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The small clamp came out after I bought a large clamp WT.
I seem to recall reading somewhere, possibly AC, earlier square motor WTs had a c. 4" long plastic shroud on a segment of the power chord & later ones didn't. I have no idea how this temporally integrates with large/small clamp variants or WT nomenclature. Interested in learning if anyone knows this obscure minutia.
The Mayan baktun ended a few hours ago & the world still exists. Congratulations or condolences as applicable. ;)
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Yes, you're right about the apparatus on the power cord on earlier models.
I can't remember the clamps. I hate clamps so that's a non issue.
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So Threadkiller, you use no clamp at all on your WTT?
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I have an Amadeus now... I should have stated that, sorry.
Naturally I used a clamp with the other tables.. Yet you know, in looking back, sometimes the laziness in me kept me from playing lps, due to the extra mess with using a clamp. I play tons more records now with the clamp less Amadeus, and obviously it does sound so much better. It's the loveliest table I've used so far- in terms of ease and sound quality.
If the Mayans had stayed around maybe they would have built an Amadeus.
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Thanks very much for clarifying. With the Amadeus out of reach, I'm determined to find a NOS WTT. Which clamp do you recommend?
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I had both the classic and Reference, with their associated clamps. Lil for classic, reference for big table.
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The clamps aren't interchangeable, by the way.
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Thanks, guys -- good to know.
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There is an Amadeus for sale on Audiogon - make an offer.
I know the owner, he's having hard financial times. The table is in great shape.
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Thanks very much for the info. Unfortunately my budget is $1K. And having had my own financial issues I'm loath to take advantage of someone in similar straits. But I appreciate your pointing it out.
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Sure. I think they would take $2k. It's a consignment guy selling it, so the damage to my friend is already done. You are very kind in saying that, however.
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Threadkiller, there's now a WTT on eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Well-Tempered-Turntable-/271126274718?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3f2062a29e
The tonearm's a mess but the table looks nice. If I were able to buy the table separately, what are the odds of (eventually) finding a (reasonably) pristine WT tonearm? Thanks -- Bill
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I like the table. Much better than earlier listings. Don't know if Mike Pranka could get the arm going for you or not. He did have at one time some new original arms, but these may be long gone. Dicey with the arm, maybe the seller just had no experience with using it, or was afraid of it. It's an early version table, yet the motor works so should be fine.
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Thanks as always for your thoughtful counsel
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Threadkiller, Mike DOES have replacement tonearms, so I'll contact the seller. Thanks
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It's a Xmas miracle!
NOW you'll have a proper table for not much money.
And something in proper working order to later trade to an Amadeus, when fortune again comes your way.
Congrats, and the best of the season to you!
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Once again, Threadkiller, thanks very much for your help and that of your WTT friends. I'll let you all know how this works out. Best Wishes of the Seaons to you all -- Bill
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Hi,everyone, happy new year to you all!
I've convinced the guy selling this WTT without the 15-year old Clearaudio reference. The table is designated WTTS -- is the "S" for "super"? Does anyone see anything objectionable? It was bought second-hand at Soundex in 1998:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=73118)
Thanks, Bill
Here's the URL in case anyone's interested:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-well-tempered-table-with-benz-reference-cartridge-well-tempered-table-2012-12-02-analog-19003
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That's the WT Reference, no?
He's going to sell it without the cartridge and drop the price?
I don't see anything that would keep me from buying it except for the 2K pricetag.
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Steve, thanks -- I offered $1150 and he took it. Glad you think I should go ahead. He's about an hour away from me so I don't have to mess with shipping.
I really appreciate everyone's good counsel in the Circle. -- Bill
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Congratulations!
That's a very nice turntable.
Now for the cartridge choice - I use Ortofon 2M Black.
If you go that route be prepared to be completely underwhelmed until it's got at least 50 hours on it.
Then one day it'll suddenly perk up!
They sold a hinge kit for that cover - don't bother. You have to drill holes in the plinth and then the cover will eventually snap off at the hinges.
While I think of it, if the azimuth wanders like crazy shoot CRC contact cleaner on the underside of the adjusting knob.
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That's the WT Reference, no?
The Well Tempered turntable pictured in the AudioGon ad appears to be a "Super" Arm & Table, a step above the WT Classic and a step below the Reference.
The "Super" appears to have 3 sections of sandwich'ed Fountainhead compared to the 3 layers of dense, MDF-like material on the Classic.
The Reference has 4 layers (2 piece sections) of Fountainhead and is bit more hefty.
The one on AudioGon appears to have the latest carbon fiber arm, a good thing...
My WT Price guide from 1994 has the Classic at $2495, the Super at $2995 and the Reference at $4495.
My $0.02,
Pete
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Thanks, guys, guess the S stands for "Super." I'll check out the Ortofon.
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Looks like a good condition table at a good price.
I don't like the black damped platter, see if you can find the clear acrylic somewhere.
See if you can hear other cartridges as well, not a fan of those Ortofons. ( sorry, I'll try not to sound like a crab!)
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Thanks, Threadkiller, didn't realize that the clear platter was superior. My experience is limited to Benz and Clearaudio cartridges. Is there a particular cartridge that the WTT "likes"?
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Hi,
It was for most of my group. The black was too damped. A Transparent thing, not a Firebaugh. Yet you might like the black.
Most anything that will mount will work on a WTL..
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I stand corrected, I did not know that there was a Super.
I saw the flecks in the finish, clamp and the arm and went off of that.
Williamsims is starting 2013 off in grand fashion!
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Yes, and for not much money. Nicely done.
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You guys are great -- hope I can return the favor(s).
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Thanks, Threadkiller, didn't realize that the clear platter was superior. My experience is limited to Benz and Clearaudio cartridges. Is there a particular cartridge that the WTT "likes"?
I prefer the black dampened platter over the clear acrylic one. Quieter, more dynamic when you have the arm set-up correctly. I've compared both platters and the black one has a clearer sound with better decay characteristics. I've heard & seen where the arm was way overdampened and the sound was dull...
The black platter is made from black acrylic, which is machined hollow at the bottom with a lathe to accept a 0.355" thick piece of IsoDamp CN and then back in the lathe for a final machining. IsoDamp CN was developed by the US Navy to control noise & resonance in ships / submarines. It has phenomenal damping properties.
I currently have a Clearaudio Maestro cartridge on my WT Reference. Absolutely love it! Great synergy between the two... A Benz may work great as well...
Good luck with your "Super"!
My $0.02,
Pete
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So there you go, williamsims. Two different tastes and takes.
As I always say, it's such a shame we can't listen together.
Do remember, the damped came from Transparent. The evil cable company.
Lol
I'll shut up now.. I did enjoy the tutorial, Pete.
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haha
new year's confessional..
i preferred the original clear platter too, as well as original well tempered/classic over an amadeus.
:lol:
someone previously mentioned you couldn't swap clamps ?
you can by switching out the allen bolt that screws onto the spindle.
i bought a large reference clamp from those (not really) evil transparent people who also supplied a couple of spare bolts as the large clamps were designed for the later turntables that used a large flange spindle.
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I stand corrected - I don't know it didn't occur to me to swap out the length of the Allens.
I'm going senile in my old age.
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Threadkiller, there's now a WTT on eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Well-Tempered-Turntable-/271126274718?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3f2062a29e
The tonearm's a mess but the table looks nice. If I were able to buy the table separately, what are the odds of (eventually) finding a (reasonably) pristine WT tonearm? Thanks -- Bill
How much would it be to get this running with a new/reconditioned arm and cartridge?
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Hi, USP1, I'll have to defer the question to more experienced members. I briefly considered buying it, tossing the arm, and buying a NOS arm from Mike P, who I understand has a few, but a better -- to my mind -- deal came along. Good luck and good listening. -- Bill
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Hi, USP1, I'll have to defer the question to more experienced members. I briefly considered buying it, tossing the arm, and buying a NOS arm from Mike P, who I understand has a few, but a better -- to my mind -- deal came along. Good luck and good listening. -- Bill
I saw your journey and realized that we were looking at the same table. The price is a bit lower now but don't want to spend a whole lot on fixing it.
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Hi, everyone, I wanted to give you all an update on my adventure:
I picked up the the 'table last weekend -- it looks great and runs fine.
I bought a medium-output Benz Glider and Nordost Frey 2 phono cable.
I was planning to get it up and running this weekend but am uneasy about the Nordost Frey 2 cable. I'd actually won an auction for Nordost Tyr 1 cable. However the seller told me he'd managed to convince the distributor to sell me the Frey 2 at the same price and, trusting fool that I am, I accepted.
But when I looked into the differences in the cables, I found that Tyr sells for 50% more than Frey. Is there any reason to believe that second generation Frey is superior to first-generation Tyr? I smell a flim-flam and at this point am planning to exchange the the Frey II for the Tyr 1.
Does this make sense? Anyone have any advice? I'm inclined to take the more expensive first-generation cable, the Tyr 1.
One more question: what's a good source of belts? I gather that the Super version of the WTT uses the same belt that the Reference does.
Thanks for all the help and encouragement.
Cheers -- Bill
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If you have a good electronics repair shop near you they may be able to match up the belt with something they have in the back.
Or you could go here:
http://www.turntablebasics.com/belts/well-tempered.html
but the shipping is really slow
or here:
http://www.lpgear.com/category/WT.html
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Steve, thanks very much as always.
Do you know anything about these guys?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Well-Tempered-CLASSIC-REFERENCE-RECORD-PLAYER-Turntable-Belt-35-1-inch-/110991329312?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item19d7994820
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No but the price is certainly right and their feedback can't be beat.
I think I'll get one for a spare.
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Hi, Steve, thanks as always for your imprimatur.
Seems like a good deal, given that one of the other clowns was charging $45/belt.
Cheers -- Bill
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My last belt was a freebie from my local electronics repair shop, they just dug around in the back and came up with one.
They're nice people and always do good work, too.
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Hi, just in case you all haven't seen the WTT for sale over at ATi, it looks like a nice one:
http://www.audiotechindustries.com/oc/classified.php?p=426-Well-Tempered-Classic-Turntable/
Cheers -- Bill
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Hey Bill,
Just peeked at the table to which you provided a link. Did you notice the difference between the tables in the images? Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me there are differences between the two upper images one views one at a time by clicking on the thumbnail. Both are square motor WTTs; however, one WTA has a silver fluid cup, no cartridge or cartridge clip while the other one has a black fluid cup, mounted cartridge and cartridge clip. There sit on different wood blocks. One is thinner and browner; the other is thicker and redder with a little scoop removed in the center and a placque. The lower image is a round motor WTT with a high gloss plinth.
mark
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Hey, Mark, absolutely! Child-hearted trusting fellow that I am, I ASSumed the lower photo was a stock photo not one of the actual table. Does look a little fishy. I'll ask the guy.
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Hi, everyone, earlier I mentioned I was going to try an ebay source of belts:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Well-Tempered-CLASSIC-REFERENCE-RECORD-PLAYER-Turntable-Belt-35-1-inch-/110991329312?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item19d7994820&afsrc=1
Long story short they arrived today in pristine condition, and the price is right: $13.95 each.
Cheers -- Bill
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Did the belt work out okay?
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Hi, Steve, shortly after the belts arrived I started getting ready to move and packed them up with the TT. As soon as I move and get unpacked, I'll let you (all) know. In the meantime I've gotten a second-hand Aesthetix Janus preamp so the phono preamp issue is resolved.
Hope all's well with you -- Bill