AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Well Tempered Lab => Topic started by: wahaha on 31 Jul 2012, 04:57 pm
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Dear all, this is my first post. Hope all expert can help me to solve the problem, thanks.
I am the NEW user of the well tempered versalex, I have try to set the tonearm with some protractor like vinylengine stupid protractor, well tempered protrctor for GTA. But I still can't set the inner grove have good performance, the distortion is so serious.
Did anyone have the protractor for versalex LTD tonearm?
Please help, thanks everyone.
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Please refer to the post called Alignment Issue on Amadeus. All your answers will be in there.
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Where did you purchase your Versalex? Who set it up?
WTL informed me that they will be putting a new alignment guide on the welltemperedlab.net blog in the near future. The one that had been posted was not disastrous, but somehow was not translated (graphically) correctly from Bill's instructions.
Check that the twist of filaments that suspend the ball is in the correct direction- counter clockwise. This gives a subtle anti-skate force. If the filaments are twisted in the opposite direction.. it might limit inner groove tracking ability.
Mike
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Hi, Erocka, I have read that post before but there is no any protractor can be found or download, please forgive me as the newbie, can you provide any link for the protractor?
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Hi, Mike, I am in Hong Kong and I buy it through my friend in China. The turntable is send from China directly, no one set it up for me, I need setup by myself.
Do you know when will WTL release the LTD tonearm protractor? I am urgently need it.
I think the golf ball is setup correctly.......maybe I post the photo for you to check, OK?
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There will be a new head shell alignment guide posted at welltemperedlab.net, soon.
You're welcome to post photos, but seeing if the tone arm filaments are twisted properly isn't easy to see in a photo.
Mike
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Setup is not helped by the instructions telling you to rotate the collar clockwise when it really should be anti-clockwise
I.e. this bit is wrong
"5. Suspend arm by applying one and half turns on the monofilament
suspension around the azimuth collar apply clockwise half twist
to the mono-filament suspension lower golf
ball into bearing cup and slide azimuth adjusting collar onto
azimuth rod (the clockwise twist effectively provides “antiskate”.
See Fig (5) and Drawings (1) and (2)."
I understand it is going to be fixed but it may not have been in your version. The LTD manual is certainly not the high point of the product and could do with a decent re-write, but that mistake is the only one I found.
My Versalex did not need any headshell alignment and unless you have managed to move your headshell from where it was when you got it, yours should not need any adjustment either.
Steve
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I have try to reverse the gold ball (please refer to photo), the inner groove distortion seems like decreasing. :D
But, there are still have some problem, I need to listen few days to found out the problems. :duh:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65969)
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That looks like you have given the collar 1.5 turns rather then 0.5. If you have given it 1.5 then you need to remove one. That is nearly as bad as giving it 0.5 of a turn in the wrong direction (as per the manual).
Steve
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Agreed..... looks like one too many twists( at least ) to me as well.
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Plus..... I can't see much in the way of damping fluid in the pic. Not sure how the Versalex compares to the Amadeus in this regard, but it doesn't look like the ball is 1/3 submerged. As I've stated, if the Versalex is different as far as the fluid/ball relationship, never mind.
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That looks like you have given the collar 1.5 turns rather then 0.5. If you have given it 1.5 then you need to remove one. That is nearly as bad as giving it 0.5 of a turn in the wrong direction (as per the manual).
Steve
Hi, Steve. You mean that I need to release 1 turn? But, how's the direction? Is it correct? Thanks.
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Plus..... I can't see much in the way of damping fluid in the pic. Not sure how the Versalex compares to the Amadeus in this regard, but it doesn't look like the ball is 1/3 submerged. As I've stated, if the Versalex is different as far as the fluid/ball relationship, never mind.
Maybe my photo has not show well, I have check the fluid, it's around 1/3 already. Do I need to add more fluid?
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Yes the direction looks correct. You need to remove at least 180° of twist.
It should look like this (except I should have used the good camera). At least that is how mine looks and I don't get any distortion. When the manual say’s to apply a ½ twist it is unclear whether this is roughly 90° or roughly 270° (180° won't mate with the suport arm). I chose the former (roughly 90°) and it works well so I am assuming that is what was meant. The manual really needs a top view showing just how much twist is required for this.
(http://users.actrix.co.nz/stevea//LTDTwist.JPG)
Below is a picture of the demo unit I had at home before buying mine and it looks like the dealer has made the same decision as to what ½ a twist means as I did.
(http://users.actrix.co.nz/stevea//Versalex_8246.jpg)
And about 1/3 golfball submersion is also corrrect for a Versalex. What I did to get the fluid level correct is to wind the adjuster right up then gradually fill the cup until things just started to sound a bit doring (very subjective measure I know). I then wound the adjuster down one rotation at a time until I thought it sounded OK. I also tried doing it the other way round but it was not quite as successful.
Steve
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Hi, Steve. I have twist the gold ball as photo. But the inner goove distortion still remain :icon_twisted:
Do you have more skill to set the tonearm? Thank you very much!! :wink:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66209)
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Looks like you both have the proper twist, and in the right direction. The left string should be over the right, which looks like you both have.
The error I see is in wahaha's photo- get your counterweights together on the tonearm. Not proper. Otherwise could job.
Make sure cartridge is perfectly projected on the shiny side of strobe disc. Rotate small wheel back and forth to line up sides of cartridge with reflection.
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Good job! Oh those typos... :lol:
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Do you have more skill to set the tonearm? Thank you very much!! :wink:
I guess after that you need to check you are at the right tracking weight for your cartridge and then see if increasing it toward the top of its recommended range makes any difference.
Your golf ball looks pretty level but, as threadkiller says, you need to confirm azimuth is correct at the cartridge. I understand the arm can be pushed through the golf ball (although I don’t plan to try that) so it is possible yours has been rotated so that when the golf ball is level the cartridge is not.
Trying another cartridge is another step to rule out cartridge related issues.
Can you take a top down picture of your headshell / cartridge?
Also a front on view of your cartridge while it is playing might be useful.
I’m not sure VTA would cause that problem unless it was way off. Have you looked at that?
Steve
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Looks like you both have the proper twist, and in the right direction. The left string should be over the right, which looks like you both have.
The error I see is in wahaha's photo- get your counterweights together on the tonearm. Not proper. Otherwise could job.
Make sure cartridge is perfectly projected on the shiny side of strobe disc. Rotate small wheel back and forth to line up sides of cartridge with reflection.
If you said left string should be over the right, mine is incorrect. The photo shows right string over the left. :duh:
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It depends on your point of reference. You have yours the correct way round in that picture. Anti skate needs to apply a force to the arm away from the spindle. That arrangement of the strings in your picture will do that.
Steve
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Hi wa
If that's the case, then you put the line over the pulley the wrong way. Take it off and reverse it.
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I'd just like to add that unlike on many tonearms iit's best not to fully tighten every securing bolt fitted to the LTD. By that I mean fully tighten then slip off just a little. It's amazing how the way my WT Versalex/ Dynavector/ Shahinian system responds so differently to my old LP12/ Naim equipment did with regard to set up. In brief also avoid glass, spikes, esoteric mains cables and seperately mains circuits IMO. Move toward timber racks and cones and basic electric supply. It took a a comprehensive listen to convert me but the sound is definately more natural!
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....
. It's amazing how the way my WT Versalex/ Dynavector/ Shahinian system responds so differently to my old LP12/ Naim equipment did with regard to set up......
What Dynavector amp?
Steve
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Please make sure that the golf ball does not touch the bottom of the bearing cup.
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Hi Steve.
I run a L200mk2 with Densen B310 amp for now but am looking to purchase a HX100 in a couple of months time. Interestingly the upgrade path I plan will deviate from the flat-earth approach, I was more impressed by the B310 to HX100 improvement than L200 to L300 even with Compass. My end game is Versalex/XX2 P75mk3 L300/HX100 Obelisks 2 (I was also very impressed with the Densen 440xs cd player). I feel that it is an incredibly natural and neutral system especially through the mids and highs. I can't think of any caveat whilst recommending this kit.
Rob
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Excellent system, Rob, I know it well. But why not get the L300 with phono stage rather than going p-75?
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Hi friend.
I payed £2500 for the L200 and £400 for the P75 mk2. If I recall the L300 was £2k more so I simply couldn't stretch to it. The latest L200 pre's are damn good IMO! In fact I don't feel desperate to upgrade any of my kit it's so good. My only gripe is the plywood edge to the Versalex plinth. It's a poor concept IMO and wasn't even stained to a high standard. I'm a Carpenter and joiner by trade and as my top veneer had a strong black fleck to the walnut veneer I decided to sand down the edge and paint with a black model paint which matches the platter and arm very nicely. I will download a video of it to you tube when I've worked out how to do it.....
Video of my now black edged Versalex now on you tube for those interested. Simply search using words Well Tempered and it can be found.
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Agree on the L200- he has raised the bar. I thought the same when I first heard it.
Not a fan of the Versalex look, so I can understand your disappointment.
You should have a stellar sounding rig!
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Hi Steve.
I run a L200mk2 with Densen B310 amp for now but am looking to purchase a HX100 in a couple of months time. Interestingly the upgrade path I plan will deviate from the flat-earth approach, I was more impressed by the B310 to HX100 improvement than L200 to L300 even with Compass. My end game is Versalex/XX2 P75mk3 L300/HX100 Obelisks 2 (I was also very impressed with the Densen 440xs cd player). I feel that it is an incredibly natural and neutral system especially through the mids and highs. I can't think of any caveat whilst recommending this kit.
Rob
I do like the P75s in PE mode with a low impedance Dyna cart like the XX-2. A killer combo.
That said, IF I was thinking of upgrading anything in that chain, it'd be the P75. But I'd also try to audition any potential upgrade. The P75 is a solid phono stage, competitive with more expensive phonos (that may have spent more on casework, etc). Especially considering you can use its PE mode.
Since it seems you are in the UK, if you get the phono upgrade bug, you might look into an Avid option. The Pulsus is great. I am running one now.
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I'll keep the phono stage suggestion in mind and post my opinions after audition. Thanks.
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I would agree on benefit of upgrading from p75 with your setup. I recently upgraded to a Pure Audio Vinyl and the improvement was substantial. The p75 was hiding 1/3 of what my xx2 was capable of.
As for amps, I have recently demoed an HX100 and was VERY impressed. Trying a Naim Nap300 (pre is nac52) next week, then some Pure Audio class A mono blocks.
Steve
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Hi Steve.
Thanks for the advise. I will check out the Pure Audio phono stage and report back as soon as.
With regard to your forthcoming power amp comparisons. I will be interested to read about your findings. I run and enjoyed a Naim 52/250 SBL system for 5 years. Its leading edge attack and bass speed was fantastic. I still miss that type of presentation with maybe one out of three albums.
Last year I dem'd the 252/300 against L300/HX100, admittedly with Versalex and Obelisks2. The Naim trademark sound is still there but with a smoother more detailed presentation. Still great with driving rock and anything without a hard edge to the recording. But my delicate sensibilities (I an 50 this year) preferred the Dynavectors. More open, detailed, less processed sounding and consistently good album to album. My well recorded classical and jazz albums especially sound a lot better now IMO. But if I were to predominately listen to for example Joe Cocker Sheffield Steel and that ilk I'd probably go for the Naims. All good gear. Enjoy.
Rob
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Hi Steve and Rob,
Mark me a purist, for I'm still against mixing Naim and Dynavector. It'd either be one or the other, depending mostly on speaker choice. I haven't heard a mix that I've liked.
With the Obs, it would definitely be Dynavector for me - a proper Pear Audio system! Naim, even at the 500 level, just doesn't seem as good- with Shahinians, I mean. Kudos- give me the Naim.
And remember for those with a Dynavector 20 and higher, a great way to go is good mm phono stage and the Dynavector stepup. Excellent results.
Best
Charlie
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Didnt find the HX100 to be that much different to my 250 as far as basic presentation 'style' went. It was just a lot more in charge of the speakers and clearer. It did have a wider sound stage.
Gut feeling is that neither of those marquess will prove the winner in the end, but that might be jumping the gun. I am not particularly fussed about mixing as I will be judging the results by what I hear and if different brands dont work well together then chances are I wont like it..
Steve
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Fair play Steve.
My judgement was based on the Naim pre and power combi v DV pre power. I didn't try mixing. I stand by my sound style definition of my present Pear Audio esk system as opposed to my previous
Naim loaded one.
Hope you report back on the Pure Audio mono block dem. I read today a couple of very positive reviews on the Pure Audio gear. So wouldn't be surprised if you find that with the Vinyl they should sound excellent.
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So, just going back to which direction for the 1/2 twist. The final setup should be inside string (closest to the spindle) ends up towards the front of the table?
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Viewing from the front of the table, the string on the left is in front of the right after twisting.
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if still in doubt another way to view it is that you should twist it so that the force is pulling the cartridge back toward the start of the LP resisting its natural progression toward the centre spindle.
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Fair play Steve.
My judgement was based on the Naim pre and power combi v DV pre power. I didn't try mixing. I stand by my sound style definition of my present Pear Audio esk system as opposed to my previous
Naim loaded one.
Hope you report back on the Pure Audio mono block dem. I read today a couple of very positive reviews on the Pure Audio gear. So wouldn't be surprised if you find that with the Vinyl they should sound excellent.
Forgot to report the Class A monoblock demo outcome.
They sounded superb but still failed to fully maintial full control during complex bass passages, - essentially the same issue my 250 had.
If not for that I would have selected them.
Ended up being offered a 2nd hand NAP500, an offer that I took up.
Steve
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They sounded superb but still failed to fully maintial full control during complec bass passages, - essentially the same issue my 250 had.
If not for that I would have selected them.
Ended up being offered a 2nd hand NAP500, an offer thay I took up.
Steve
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I'm sure your system sounds excellent Steve. Have you read about the new Naim S1 pre/power combo? By far their best sounding products to date apparently. Retail price is $200,000 USD. I'm ordered two pairs :o not!
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I've read about them.
I would need to start buying lotto tickets, and winning ones at that, before contemplating one of those new things.
Steve