AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Digital Amplifier Company Owners => Topic started by: Bassphil on 24 Sep 2010, 03:27 pm
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Hi Tommy, I just wired in the new Cherry Plus Tuesday night, and I'm officially sleep deprived- I can't seem to turn it off and go to bed. It sounds amazing! Thanks for helping me out!
When I have a second, I'll post a more detailed description of what it's done to my system, and the differences between it and my old Cary Slam 100 monoblocks. Plus, I have a few small questions.
Oh, and before I forget, I recommended you to a friend who runs the jazz department of the Fieldston Academy school here in Riverdale. They need a new amp...
-Phil
www.philpalombi.com
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Keep us informed ... I'm waiting for my PLUS to show up, hopefully tonight. :thumb:
I've been Cherry-deprived for a while, so I feel your pain.
I'll also post my thoughts once I've had some time with it, and comparing with my two preamps (Dodd battery and Juicy Music Peach II) and straight from my DAC3.
Wilson
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I got my Cherry as well. More to come after my Soundscapes arrive, but so far, I'm very impressed. thanks Tommy!
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Okay, I have a minute. First, a few questions.
I tried the XLR adapters (for the inputs) without the extra ground lift attachment, and it sounds fine. Is that okay, or do I need to put the ground lifts back in? I'm guessing that if there's no buzz, then I don't need the ground attachments.
The input impedance is 10K, right? I dug around and found another post with that, but I though I'd double check. I'm using stereo Vandersteen 2W subs with the adjustable M5-HP crossovers, so I need to set those up properly.
And finally, is there a break in period? It sounds great now- I'm just curious if it's going to get better :thumb:
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Phil,
Tommy can chime in later, but here's my $0.02, hope it helps:
If you don't have a hum or buzz without the ground lift, then you're good to go. I need to get me some of those ground lift adapters for my Peach II, which buzzes with my custom RCA to XLR cable.
Also, you are correct re: input impedance of the Cherry at 10K.
Lastly, based on my experience with the Jr., the unit was broken in after 24 hours of continuous signal. After that, there may have been minor settling in, but the majority of break in was complete.
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Man, I have to bring my EVS over to compare with the Cherry Plus Wilson, and the Curcio with the HEED
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Sounds good! I want to hear your new phono stage in its natural habitat too.
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I can give a couple of hours this Sunday if you're up for it?
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Tuan: Depends, the weather is finally really nice - might need to be out and about since we finally have summer here in SF. I'll let you know if I can do it, and happy 1 year anniversary!
To the rest of you: I GOT MY PLUS TODAY!!!! I can say the faceplate silkscreen is much nicer than the photos show, good job Tommy and the gang!
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Lastly, based on my experience with the Jr., the unit was broken in after 24 hours of continuous signal. After that, there may have been minor settling in, but the majority of break in was complete.
Thanks! Soo, does that mean that you just left it on for 24 hours, you played music through it for 24 hours, or you had about 24 hours of use on it? I'm guessing that it's one of the first two, since you said "continuous"...
Also, I noticed that the amp is pretty loud when operating- 13db above room noise, to be precise. When I pause the music, I can hear it from about 5 feet away. It's not a hum sound, but some kind of mechanical transformer sound. It's not coming though the speakers. It's coming directly from the amp itself. Is that normal? Just checking...
Over all, here's what I hear from switching from the Cary Slam 100 monoblocks that I was using. The first thing I noticed was the low end was a lot cleaner. The Cary's did indeed have a lot of Slam, but the Cherry has a more refined tone down low. However, since my stereo Vandersteen 2W subwoofers are catching the super low end, the Cherry only has to handle down to about 80hz or so. Still, the sound stage is a lot cleaner overall. Maybe someday I'll pick up some super full range speakers and ditch the subs...
I didn't feel like I switched from tubes to solid state, though. I feel like I just switched to a better amplifier. Everything is cleaner and richer. I'm hearing things in recordings that I've never noticed before. It's still warm sounding, and the tone of instruments seems to be more correct- less equipment coloration. Also, my soundstage grew both sideways and front to back.
I definintely think that I've bought my last power amp. Maybe I'll get some bigger Maggies now :icon_lol:
-Phil
www.philpalombi.com
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Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear - I've been playing music continuously through my PLUS for about 32 hours now - I use a music server to break in my components. There is a great deal of difference from the first hour after installing it, most noticeable in increased frequency extension at both extremes.
About the transformer hum, you should talk to Tommy about this. I had intermittent hum from the Jr., where at times it is as you described, but this was not constant, otherwise my wife wouldn't have it anywhere near us. Tommy has been great to work with, and will help you out if there's a problem.
More later, but the sound is quite different from the Jr. - the mids and bass are a bit more fleshed out, detailed yet richer, and the overall tonal balance is a bit warmer. This is through my Dodd, which is a detail monster. I'll report back if break-in time is more than what I've stated earlier.
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Actually, mine doesn't have a hum that cuts in and out, so maybe it's normal. Does your Cherry Plus make any sound at all? Is it completely silent?
I have one more question for you- what do your binding posts look like? Do they have the clear plastic knobs like the WBT's or are they solid gold?
Thanks!
-Phil
www.philpalombi.com
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Hey Phil,
My Plus hasn't made any mechanical transformer hum at all, but I only got it Friday.
Mine has the gold plated speaker posts, but Tommy told me it would not have the clear WBTs.
Wilson
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Okay, I have a minute. First, a few questions.
I tried the XLR adapters (for the inputs) without the extra ground lift attachment, and it sounds fine. Is that okay, or do I need to put the ground lifts back in? I'm guessing that if there's no buzz, then I don't need the ground attachments.
The input impedance is 10K, right? I dug around and found another post with that, but I though I'd double check. I'm using stereo Vandersteen 2W subs with the adjustable M5-HP crossovers, so I need to set those up properly.
And finally, is there a break in period? It sounds great now- I'm just curious if it's going to get better :thumb:
There is a break in period, but how long is determined by use. I recommend keeping it on all the time for a few weeks, playing it hard through a few songs once a day if possible.
Regarding the ground lift, we include those now because many preamps aren't connected to earth ground. In that case, removing the ground lift fixes hum issues. This is a topic I have written about many times, but maybe a long-winded explanation is in order (someday when I'm feeling extra-energetic).
Thanks for the compliments, and enjoy the sound!
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Regarding the ground lift, we include those now because many preamps aren't connected to earth ground. In that case, removing the ground lift fixes hum issues. This is a topic I have written about many times, but maybe a long-winded explanation is in order (someday when I'm feeling extra-energetic).
Thanks for the compliments, and enjoy the sound!
That topic would make for a good sticky for your Circle Tommy. :D
Cheers,
Robin
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Actually, mine doesn't have a hum that cuts in and out, so maybe it's normal. Does your Cherry Plus make any sound at all? Is it completely silent?
I have one more question for you- what do your binding posts look like? Do they have the clear plastic knobs like the WBT's or are they solid gold?
Thanks!
-Phil
www.philpalombi.com
Phil,
Mechanical hum from the transformer should be very slight at most. However, this is sometimes accentuated by poor AC mains quality --- not such a great "sine wave" in my house, for example. With the chassis open, I hear a "buzz" from the transformer when the air conditioning kicks in! It can also be accentuated by the cabinet or platform that the amp is on. Some of the seem to amplify mechanical hum. There are other countermeasures, but give it some time first, and we'll discuss it more.
Regarding your binding posts, they are WBT. We don't use the plastic coated ones. Take a look at the posts closely, and you can see "WBT" on the there. Wilson opted for the less fancy posts on his particular amp (Dayton).
Well, if there are any other issues, please don't hesitate to post. I'm all for an open forum about Cherry amps, inside and out. This is one advantage of dealing with Digital Amp Co.!
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That topic would make for a good sticky for your Circle Tommy. :D
Cheers,
Robin
Yes! Now if I can only figure out how to do that (haven't before)... Hmmmm. :scratch:
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Yes! Now if I can only figure out how to do that (haven't before)... Hmmmm. :scratch:
It should be pretty easy Tommy. When you're looking at the forum index there should be some little icons towards the right of every topic. One of them probably looks like a push-pin or post-it note, click that and it'll sticky the topic at the top. At least that's how it works on the forums where I've got mod rights.
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As the facilitator Tommy, you should be able to select an option called 'make topic sticky' after the last message on a thread. Scroll down to the end, it should be there.
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Thanks for the post Tommy! I was wondering if it could be an AC issue. Is it safe to run the amp without speakers or interconnects plugged into it? If so, then I could take the amp to another room that has a dedicated AC line to test it.
Also, a strange thing happened. Initially I had left ground lifts out of the mix with the balanced adapters because there was no buzz. Two days ago, I noticed a slight buzz for the first time, so I put the ground lifts on and the buzz disappeared. It's not a big deal, I just thought I'd share. Maybe the amp broke in enough that the buzz frequencies were finally audible??
Thanks again!
-Phil
www.philpalombi.com
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Hi guys,
In regard to break in, I would not recommend leaving it on 24/7. It is the power up/down cycles that help to bring things together much faster. My recommendation is to run it a few hours, power down for about a half hour and then power it back up again. Continue this cycle for as long as possible and your amp will come into focus much quicker than simply leaving it on all the time.
This holds true for most any audio product.
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Hi guys,
In regard to break in, I would not recommend leaving it on 24/7. It is the power up/down cycles that help to bring things together much faster. My recommendation is to run it a few hours, power down for about a half hour and then power it back up again. Continue this cycle for as long as possible and your amp will come into focus much quicker than simply leaving it on all the time.
This holds true for most any audio product.
For the record, we still recommend leaving the amp on 24/7 initially, but there is still room for debate. If you leave power on all the time, the "warm" components stay at temperature and "get used to it". There's also another bias at play here. In the "old days" I got into the habit of power cycling equipment as few times as possible. For example, computer power supplies ran for years no problem if you didn't power cycle, but all bets were off for those who shut down daily. Anyway, our amps are designed to make break-in have as little of an effect as possible. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Hello Tommy,
I guess I stand corrected. You would know best when it comes to your gear and I would not be one to try to contradict the designer.
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Hello Tommy,
I guess I stand corrected. You would know best when it comes to your gear and I would not be one to try to contradict the designer.
No worries. Like I said, the debate is still on. Sounds like something fun to experiment with... Thanks for your post!
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Hi Tommy, I have a quick question. It's safe to run the amp with nothing plugged into it, right? I wanted to disconnect it and take it downstairs where I have a dedicated AC line to see if the transformer hums. I have a feeling that it's noisy AC issues upstairs like you suggested, but I want to be sure before I hire an electrician.
Thanks!
-Phil
www.philpalombi.com
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Hi Tommy, I have a quick question. It's safe to run the amp with nothing plugged into it, right? I wanted to disconnect it and take it downstairs where I have a dedicated AC line to see if the transformer hums. I have a feeling that it's noisy AC issues upstairs like you suggested, but I want to be sure before I hire an electrician.
Thanks!
-Phil
www.philpalombi.com
Yes, it's safe. Can you bring it to someone else's house? Sometimes the AC is dirty for the entire house . Good luck experimenting. Thanks.
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My Plus is very quiet when all is hooked up and the preamp is on, but makes a small noise if the pre is off, so make sure you are testing under the same conditions, fwiw...
-Mike
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It's dead quite through the speakers, I want to check the hum from the box itself. It seems to be quieter sometimes, so I'm pretty confident that it's an AC issue. I may as well be sure, though. I certainly don't want to send it back- it's a family member now!
-Phil
www.philpalombi.com
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Okay, I finally have an update! I've been breaking it in using both methods described- leaving it on for a few days as per Tommy suggestion, and spending a few days powering it off after each listening session. I do feel that the amp has opened up, though it hasn't moved (sonically speaking) that far from the original sound. However, I have discovered something very interesting about it.
I packed it up and took it over to a friends house the other day to hear it in his system. Actually, it was Alvester Garnett, who originally hipped me to the Cherry Plus and is mentioned in the review that Tommy just posted from StereoTimes.com... Anyway, we listened to Alvester's system with his NuForce monoblocks in place for a few hours, then we popped in my Cherry Plus.
At first I was in shock! The bass was totally undefined and fuzzy, and the midrange was weak. We had just spent about three hours being knocked out about it's sound over at my house, so we all were a bit confused. We started shuffling through his library (he has a music server) and started discussing what we were hearing (i.e. ignoring the music). After about 10 minutes, we popped back to that first track we checked out and the bass was A LOT more focused. Whew! Sooo, the Cherry needs to warm up. We cranked some Erykah Badu "Live" to help it along. After about 20 minutes the bass was right were it should be.
The midrange was still a little metallic, or maybe "less warm" than his NuForce's, though. For this, we decided to try a different power cord. We were using one of Alvesters high end PS Audio cords I think. We switched to an Analysis-Plus Power Oval 2 power cord- BAM - the bass was still great AND the midrange came to life. (Disclaimer- I endorse for Analysis-Plus, but only because I believe in their cords!)
Soo, the lesson I learned is the Cherry Plus seems to need a 30 minute or so warm up to reach it's potential, and the power cord definitely makes a difference. That amp really gripped the heck out of Alvester's Hyperion speakers! It was a lot of fun to listen to, and the music sounded great.
About the hum I had mentioned in my earlier posts. At my house, there is one of those halogen lamps with a built in dimmer switch in the same room as the system. That was the culprit! Luckily, it's on an outlet that is connected to a light switch, so I can kill it all together when I'm listening. I was a little surprised that it was affecting the system since I have everything behind a power conditioner, and it's never cause a problem before... Not a big deal, though.
It still has a slight hum that you can hear if you put your ear above the amp, which was present at Alvester's house as well. That is completely inaudible, though, when you're standing up in front of the system, and you certainly can't hear it from the listening position. I'm guessing that's normal- it does have a giant transformer, after all.
Another surprise was, according to Alvester, my Cherry Plus seemed to sound even better than the Cherry Plus that he and Perry reviewed for that StereoTimes article. I'll post something about that in the other thread.
-Phil
www.philpalombi.com
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Phil,
Interesting post. What's more interesting is that I have recently begun shutting down the Cherry Plus (following Tommy's suggestion to leave it on for the first few weeks), and noticed the exact same warm up period of 30 minutes being needed to get to the best sound. Good ears hear alike.
Wilson
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It likely takes a while for all the caps to fully charge.
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Phil,
Interesting post. What's more interesting is that I have recently begun shutting down the Cherry Plus (following Tommy's suggestion to leave it on for the first few weeks), and noticed the exact same warm up period of 30 minutes being needed to get to the best sound. Good ears hear alike.
Wilson
Every piece of equipment needs time to warm up, regardless if it's broken-in or not. That's why bringing equipment over to other peoples homes, and comparing it to say an amp that's been powered on for weeks, is not a fair comparison. When I leave for vacation I unplug all my equipment, and upon returning, plug everything back in again. I swear it takes two weeks to sound it's best again.
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Hope my previous post isn't read as a slight in any way. I'm merely adding my consistency in experience as another data point that someone in the future can take into account.
The Cherry Jr. did not have as a long a warm up period - probably only minutes - in my experience with it. But after warm up, the Plus is friggin amazing.