[FullRangeMan]

Reality?

Limited scale, FR and weight / impact / slam is NOT reality.  Sorry.

As you said FR sound are easily identifiable.
FR drivers are not perfect to run in hi power, some of sens=99dB or more are near item.
Even FR priced tens of thousands of dollars have these limitations.
They are intend to fine detail play no raw power, for this kind of sound(not music) I suggest Cerwin-Vega or Wilson for the hi-end snobs.

[Canada Rob]

Reality?

Limited scale, FR and weight / impact / slam is NOT reality.  Sorry.

This morning, I was listening to a complex classical piece with huge dynamic swings and volume changes on my Super Alnico Monitors with a 2 watt SET.  At nowhere near the maximum capable output of that amp the music was loud and very clear with an insane soundstage. It was like being there.  Chrystal clear with no crossover to muck things up.

Sadly, good single driver speakers get a bad rap because many builders have tried and produced mediocrity.  They failed because they didn't stick with it and perfect their design, or they didn't have the skills, or didn't have deep enough pockets.  It's far more difficult to get a credible design in a single driver speaker than in the multi way, but once acheived the results are sublime.

All my viewpoints are as seen through the lens of Omega speakers.  I've heard one other brand of single driver speaker and frankly there are some multi ways I like better.

[rajacat]

As a dealer I've had many Omegas go through my place.  All I'd heard up until I got my first Omegas about 6 years ago was nothing but multi way speakers (since 1973).  2 way, 3 way, dome, ribbon, horn, and electrostatic.  The Omegas ended my search.

The closest crossovered speaker to an Omega were some large beer fridge sized 2 ways with vintage Altec drivers (which equivalent today would run about $15,000 - $20,000 a pair).  They were sublime, and sounded similar to the (pint sized by comparison) Super Alnico Monitors I have here.

Lets take your argument to a different level.  Single driver speakers are (through urban legend which is usually false) reputed to be mainly good for intimate listening of small ensembles and acoustic instruments, mainly midrange without the frequency extensions a multi way speaker is capable of, and cannot unravel complex music as well, oh yes, and low dynamics.  What you are saying is you can't tell the difference between multi way and single driver, which brings out at least one fact:

1) Omega, any Omega is capable of playing any kind of music as well or better as the best multi driver speaker anywhere near their price...and no tweeter needed, hence no crossover needed.

Why you're unable to hear the difference particularly in the midrange, coherence, and directness of the Omegas is honestly beyond me.
What amp did you play your bipoles on and what bipoles did you have (with what driver)?

I like my Omegas. I wouldn't have owned them for more than 5 years if I didn't. I run them with Heathkit W5m tube monoblocks that have been refurbished and have some mods. I also run them with subs as they can't be run at full range and cover 20hz >20,000hz. I did notice that you qualified your statement with  "anywhere near their price."
So actually you're stating that a xover speaker  that's more expensive could sound as direct and coherent as single drivers. Thanks for conceding that point. The problem is that you and FRM generally speak without moderating or qualifying your points therefore lose a bit of credibility in my mind.

[Canada Rob]

So actually you're stating that a xover speaker  that's more expensive could sound as direct and coherent as single drivers. Thanks for conceding that point. The problem is that you and FRM generally speak without moderating or qualifying your points therefore lose a bit of credibility in my mind.

Comparing, say a Super 3XRS, favorably to a multiway "anywhere near their price" is not a concession, it's a victory. 

You never said what driver you have in your bipoles.  If they are original they will be the HempCone 4.5".

[sunnydaze]

Loudspeakers w/xovers have the harmonics shaved and 2D soundstage.

Nonsense again.   You really should stop speaking in such absolutes.   I've heard many multi-driver speakers  produce soundstages that are absolutely cavernous and very layered.

[rajacat]

What I want to see is Louis develope a 12" driver that would go down into the 30 hz range and up to say 16,000hz with little distortion. Now that would be a full range driver with sub optional. The 12" cone would move some air and provide the gravitas for large scale music.

[FullRangeMan]

Nonsense again.   You really should stop speaking in such absolutes.   I've heard many multi-driver speakers that are absolutely cavernous and hugely layered.

You must talking of OB or dipoles.
Multi drivers cones are awful, except Alnico.
Such speakers are big, expensive, dont work w/small tube amps.
Just its xover eat afew Watts in heat to starting work.

I even understand that people like these monsters.
Do what!

[FullRangeMan]

What I want to see is Louis develope a 12" driver that would go down into the 30 hz range and up to say 16,000hz with little distortion. Now that would be a full range driver with sub optional. The 12" cone would move some air and provide the gravitas for large scale music.

With 6/8'' FR the bass usually is made by the enclousure/stuffing.

[rajacat]

Alnico the magnet not the cone.

[JLM]

Extended range vs. crossover based design would be better debated (in a more serious and cordial manner) elsewhere.  As first pointed out, this is an apples vs. oranges comparison.  There is no perfect speaker.  Each have their pluses and minuses.  The intelligent shopper/owner  soul searches/researches to prioritize attributes.


My 1st question to the OP is: Are you dissatisfied with the single driver/crossoverless approach (and the inevitable weaknesses)?

It can happen, just be sure of what you want.


2nd question:  Is this just a case of the grass being greener on the other side of the fence?

That can be a never ending game, if you don't know what you want.


3rd question:  Are you afraid of missing out on a good deal?

That not a good reason to change, unless you're planning on flipping them.

[Canada Rob]

Extended range vs. crossover based design would be better debated (in a more serious and cordial manner) elsewhere.  As first pointed out, this is an apples vs. oranges comparison.  There is no perfect speaker.  Each have their pluses and minuses.  The intelligent shopper/owner  soul searches/researches to prioritize attributes.


My 1st question to the OP is: Are you dissatisfied with the single driver/crossoverless approach (and the inevitable weaknesses)?

It can happen, just be sure of what you want.


2nd question:  Is this just a case of the grass being greener on the other side of the fence?

That can be a never ending game, if you don't know what you want.


3rd question:  Are you afraid of missing out on a good deal?

That not a good reason to change, unless you're planning on flipping them.

Ditto.

[vinagunner]

v

[klamka]

Omegas are fine  for money but they use rather cheap drivers I think originating from guitar speakers . They are nowhere near the state of the art full range drivers. Love them , hate them is all subjective and part of audio folklore. Living Voice speakers also do not use SOTA drivers and dollar per dollar  and pound per pound probably the cost of manufacturing is roughly similar even though there is a big retail difference. I have AVATAR MKI model and I have to say that it's frustrating to get them to sound right. Often supposedly superior amps sound simply so so  and one starts to wonder who paid for all that great reviews . I found a good match in  old Audio Note kit 4 , 6V6 PP amp and I have to say that they must be the most musically satisfying speakers I heard but you may not be lucky and they will sound boxy , loose and rolled of simply like overpriced garbage if not in optimal spot.
What is the price offer on those IBX/OBX R2 if I may ask?

[Audiophile58]

I can give a qualified opinion I used to sell living voice Loudspeakers and know them well when living in the U.K.
They are a refined Loudspeaker and exude a warmer pleasant presentation with decent detail. And play music relatively loud mid 90 db. Micro dynamics not one of it's strong  suits ,nor very detailed dynamic inflection,
Bass is actually very good probably a little lower then the Omega Alnico 6.5  by a few HZ.
The better of the lot OBX had dual bass drivers and a tweeter and roughly over $6000  model designation
On memory.

The present Omega Alnico 6.5 driver is many times overlooked it too has a slightly warm presentation
But the  Mass on the Omega Hemp fiber cone  is not only very strong but Very light around 8 grams around the whizzer cone I believe.It excels at  natural inflections and decay of instruments .Micro dynamics is Excellent
And mid range detail compared to the OBX is more fleshy and 3 dimentional. They both have very good Midbass the dual driver on the OBX gives it soightly more punch .myself I use a 12 inch powered sub
And Xover around 90 hz for all speakers to remove the main driver  and allow it to do it's job more at ease.
The Omega can play with attack and realism a bit more so and noticable more accurate.

Reason being in the OBX has a Xover with several parts which not only robs it of a bit of power but tonal
accuracy. The Omega having No Xover is a first order driver  meaning  Time and Phase accuracy that  gives  you that  U are there presence a multi driver will have a hard time matching.

[vinagunner]

v

[Audiophile58]

This is stated in reply to Klamka . Your statement about Omega Drivers is Very wrong . The Alnico Hemp 6.5 driver  for example is  totally engineered unlike any on the market. Yes Louis  did consult with the Patent owner regarding the Hemp fiber cone,which BTW is very light as well as strong.
Tubby tone Hemp drivers  in the pro audio field are outstanding. But that is where the similarities end .Omega has it's own proprietary build design.the magnetic structure and frame on the Alnico 6 is night and day stronger then any typical Scanspeak driver.this is a fact,and Cone mete rial very responsive and strong           I have seen name brand commercial drivers. Omega builds several unique driver designs.                               if regarding cabinets
No comparison Louis is a Master  cabinet builder and uses a 4 ply build very labor intensive,and his Veneers are a very thick Antique grade you will not find on the standard are commercial market, each cabinet is point specific unique to the driver- drivers being used as well as port design.

These drivers  and All current Omega drivers went through many months of R&D and testing,- None off the shelf or copies of anybody's  speaker.
Unless you heard the most current Omega models ,then you have not heard Omega  speakers at all !!

[klamka]

I'm happy to notice that Luis is the first one who succeed in building truly reference Full Range driver after several months of research .There are 40 years old companies with unlimited R&D which could not achieve that goal. No , I did not hear the latest offerings but I will take a first opportunity to do so . I do believe Hemp is a good cone material . Audio Note speakers which sound very decent on their own way and which are maybe the best small to medium sized commercial speaker on the market  use Hem cones also.
Regards , K

[Canada Rob]

Omegas are fine  for money but they use rather cheap drivers I think originating from guitar speakers .

Simply not true.  Less costly than a Feastrex, than a Phy-HP? maybe.  Cheap, no.  Guitar speakers? No.  If the Alnico Hemp drivers were sold separately they would be very pricey.  Maybe you're judging the OEM drivers by the giveaway pricing of the DIY speakers that Louis sold for a short time.  Maybe by the ridiculously low price he has sold retrofits for.  His whole line is terribly underpriced, and sadly some people mistake that for "cheap".

[pstrisik]

..........
The present Omega Alnico 6.5 driver is many times overlooked it too has a slightly warm presentation
But the  Mass on the Omega Hemp fiber cone  is not only very strong but Very light around 8 grams around the whizzer cone I believe.It excels at  natural inflections and decay of instruments .Micro dynamics is Excellent
And mid range detail compared to the OBX is more fleshy and 3 dimentional. They both have very good Midbass the dual driver on the OBX gives it soightly more punch .myself I use a 12 inch powered sub
And Xover around 90 hz for all speakers to remove the main driver  and allow it to do it's job more at ease.
The Omega can play with attack and realism a bit more so and noticable more accurate.

Reason being in the OBX has a Xover with several parts which not only robs it of a bit of power but tonal
accuracy. The Omega having No Xover is a first order driver  meaning  Time and Phase accuracy that  gives  you that  U are there presence a multi driver will have a hard time matching.

How are doing the 90db crossover?  If speaker level, you are adding a crossover just like a two way speaker.  Line level would avoid this.

[Canada Rob]

How are doing the 90db crossover?  If speaker level, you are adding a crossover just like a two way speaker.  Line level would avoid this?

A straight pre-out will be full frequency so it won't take any load off the main amp.  In order for the main amp to be spared the full load, the pre-amp needs a pre-out that has a cut off point above a certain frequency.  An example of a good affordable pre-amp with this feature is the Parasound New Classic 2100.  https://www.parasound.com/img/nc/2100_rear_big.jpg