[JoshK]

I wouldn't blame the loudspeaker for the apparent excess of high frequencies. Y

I'm going to guess the same.  However, I am going t suggest a simple experiment. 

Before you try anything else, find some thick cotton/wool/bonded logic piece of scrap....tape it around the rear of the tweeter so that it dampens the freq's but doesn't change the crossover or anthing else electrical in the circuit.


listen to that.

[Letitroll98]

Yah, no good. Not practical. I guess I fluked off that music which  was dedicating everthing on the right channel.

One thing for sure you do not need another tweeter if you can get the music to obey the tweeter less channel.

I am just glad Fullrangeman didn't show up with his tweeter shooting baby rubbing it in. I don't know if I couldve handled that..lol

Hey, no problem in trying something.  This proves your system doesn't have anything wrong with it.  However it does prove we should only use one martini when listening as two may cause spacial distortion.   

Your basic premise of reducing high frequency energy to improve sound quality in either modern speaker systems and/or modern recordings may have a great deal of merit.   

[werd]

Hey, no problem in trying something.  This proves your system doesn't have anything wrong with it.  However it does prove we should only use one martini when listening as two may cause spacial distortion.   

Your basic premise of reducing high frequency energy to improve sound quality in either modern speaker systems and/or modern recordings may have a great deal of merit.

One thing I learned is that much of the money spent  on a big buck pair of speakers has to do with the interaction between the two tweeters.

I have to admit too it was a bit of a shock waking up in the morning and finding one tweeter missing out my speak.......

[werd]

I think this might work in Mono

[fredgarvin]

I can't imagine taking out one tweeter to be a good thing. The tweeter is more than just cymbal information. They provide much of the spatial cues and airiness, dimensionality,  of the soundstage. If a properly set up stereo soundstage is not important to a person, they could go mono. Each to his own, naturally.

[werd]

I can't imagine taking out one tweeter to be a good thing. The tweeter is more than just cymbal information. They provide much of the spatial cues and airiness, dimensionality,  of the soundstage. If a properly set up stereo soundstage is not important to a person, they could go mono. Each to his own, naturally.

I really didn't understand what tweeters did on my system until recently. They are for forming cymbals and some violion instrument extentions as far as music technically. The airiness and dimensionality and all at that other stuff including cues is just trying to make a good situation out of a bad. Its a type of noise inserted garbage. Aside from the obvious benefits of instrument formation they are the driver that turns your system from sounding live to a hifi sounding production.

Some recordings sound nerfed but some sound stellar. Mostly because of what Bobrex was talking about and music production.

I have 3 speakers atm. I have a sub, - i have 2mids and a tweeter, - and i have a 2mids. I still have a massive stereo image.  I am not trying to fix my normal system but venture down a really interesting playback form that i havent heard before. There is no way that treatments, cabling or anything can make two tweeters sound like one in my system. Its not about fixing my tweeter response. But getting rid of another driver that is some what redundant for what i want to hear.

[viggen]

Can you tell whether your speakers are wired out of phase?

[werd]

yah i can, but so long as one tweeter is in phase with one speaker its a go.

[BobRex]

I really didn't understand what tweeters did on my system until recently. They are for forming cymbals and some violion instrument extentions as far as music technically. The airiness and dimensionality and all at that other stuff including cues is just trying to make a good situation out of a bad. Its a type of noise inserted garbage. Aside from the obvious benefits of instrument formation they are the driver that turns your system from sounding live to a hifi sounding production.

Some recordings sound nerfed but some sound stellar. Mostly because of what Bobrex was talking about and music production.

I have 3 speakers atm. I have a sub, - i have 2mids and a tweeter, - and i have a 2mids. I still have a massive stereo image.  I am not trying to fix my normal system but venture down a really interesting playback form that i havent heard before. There is no way that treatments, cabling or anything can make two tweeters sound like one in my system. Its not about fixing my tweeter response. But getting rid of another driver that is some what redundant for what i want to hear.

I'm still not sure I get where you're coming from.  First, properly reproduced "airiness" is not "inserted garbage", it is information that is indeed present in live acoustic situations.  And, yes, I have heard it live with orchestras and live un (or minimally) amplified jazz and folk.  The trick is that it isn't always true high frequency.  Air, as most people define it, can be full range, but it will sound off when it is truncated.  From what I remember, the Adagios cross over between 2 and 3K.  I believe the crossovers are 4th order Linkwitz Reilly, so they are rolling off the mid drivers at 24dB / octave.  That's damned steep and definitely limits the information (and it IS information) passed.  Again, proper tweeters do the opposite of what you are claiming.  In reality they transform a system from a hollow construct into something that can approach reality.

That image that you hear may indeed be massive, but is it correct?  In a properly set up system, you shouldn't hear the tweeters as a source at all, just the information placed into the soundscape.  If you are getting too much information, something is wrong, it has to be.  Tweeters only present information that is on the recording.  If you are getting hash or noise, then either the recordings truly do "suck" or you have other noise sources in the system.  If running both tweeters is pushing parts of the image forward, then that is again a problem.

What you are doing is intentionally restricting your system's response in one channel.  It's not a revelation, nor are you the first person to do it.  I've known a few people that had blown out tweeters (or fuses) and thought everything was fine.  It wasn't until the system was fixed that they realized what they were missing.  Perhaps you have an unusual sensitivity to high frequencies (early stages of tinnitus, maybe?)  If so, then you might do better by padding down both tweeters.  Try that and see if it helps.

[werd]

Bobrex

Have you ever had a tweeter blow?

[BobRex]

Bobrex

Have you ever had a tweeter blow?

Tweeter itself, no; tweeter fuse, yes.  I felt something was off, and it took me a little while, maybe a week, to figure out what was wrong.  Once I fixed it everything sounded "right" again.  That was back in 1978, with an all Technics system - the old pancake series and SB7000 speakers.  Wasn't long after that I got rid of the speakers and bought Polk 10s.  They sounded much better! 

Of course, back then I wasn't listening the same way as I do now.

[werd]

So far this is working in mono, have an old hafler pre amp i completely forgot about. It has mono out. My carver has mono but i like this one better. Less cymbal and off to one side gives it nice staging, but you need to sit further back. If you are into mono this is a definitely something you should try.

Mono out with one tweeter. Haven't herd anything screwy yet but hey if it happens I will tell ya.

This is how my system is going to sit for about the next 3 or 4 months. Got some more 244s coming in the new year and maybe a diffuser not sure.

[werd]

Having  some fun here. Been trying to break up the symmetry of my two channel. Got rid of one tweeter went mono, and my tweeter less speakers have some real serious midrange due to the big hole where the tweeter was.....lol

Ok but now I have the harmonic tech truth link rca on the right where my tweeter is and wywires on the left where my mids are. Only between my dac and pre. Pre to power I am still running wywires. I like truth link because they give you the most air around the tweeters for any  any budget wire out there and there not all saucy table pancake syrupy like the wywires. Gets the tweeter a big of edge...nice.

[werd]

Can you tell whether your speakers are wired out of phase?

It's a go on some of the recordings, but most are some what out of phase  in stereo.

[Quiet Earth]

Ok, I tried it. Pretty cool experiment.   

I took a T shirt and folded it into a rectangle, then draped it over the top of the right speaker so it just covered the tweeter. I sat down and listened. It took me a minute to climatize to the obvious - a lack of treble and a volume imbalance. But I closed my eyes and adjusted very quickly.

What I noticed was not so much the lack of treble energy, but a different perspective on the musical whole. Almost like a different viewing angle at a performance. It forced me to notice less obvious things going on in the mix, and it created a pseudo sound stage where there really wasn't one before. (I was listening to the Allman brothers.)

I don't think this is the right way to go about adjusting tone or perceptive imaging, but I definitely hear what you're getting at. It's an eye opener at the very least.

Keep working on it.

[werd]

Thanks for giving it a go. My first night i had my sub on the left and tweeter on the right and i was cranking out the metal and it sounded dam good in stereo. The only thing is once you start playback on a bunch of genres the stereo image gets unpredictable and and it does sound phasey and you are missing info. But in two channel if you can it to work on some tunes its hot.

Mono solves the phasey sound to it in all recordings. It lays it back. The older remastered recordings are excellent here. What i look for  in the  sweetspot are the cymbals on one side and the drums and bass on the other side. You get midrange on both sides but  the midrange is pronounced on the tweeterless side. So very often you get the bass on one side and any significant drums toms. and you get cymbals and high hats pronounced on the other side. In the middle you get the most significant instrument.  Its pretty cool 

[werd]

Hello

Ok I sm experiencing some major progression. The system is the same as above ATM

I am goint to reiterate,there is way to much high frequency info in hifi playback. For whatever reason, maybe in the recording or maybe in the playback it's hard to get a handle on it. Some how we are forced to bow to the playback as it is now and somehow feel  we need to get into a nervosa of buying into a stream of audio bandages to compensate.

I got it down, I have my system play back in what I refer to as true mono. This can  only be done with  one tweeter. It also helps, in nerfing my tweeter playback I was able to get a more midrange from my tweeler-less driver.

What was really difficult was getting over decades of stereo image listening. This stereo image was set in stone and was the biggest problem or obstacle in getting past my hearing. It took hours of getting around my engrained hearing to look for the center image. This took hours to work out.

In true mono listening you don't want to look for the center or stereo image. You want to hear each channel alone. Again This took me a few hours to do. It's not easy. You have to have a single tweeter since it gives you a hearing reference to each side.

What happens is the image appears above the tweeter less side. If you open your eyes you are still looking for ward but it sounds like you are looking at the tweeter less speaker.  The image is not center but it's on the side of the tweeter less channel. The high freq from the other channel moves around it. It's great guys.

Anytime there is a high frequency boost in music the treble will pan to the tweeter less speaker but it remains stable and consistent.

It's awesome, it really is.

[Napalm]

Werd I could work on your opposite ear until we get a frequency response that would compensate for the presence of a tweeter. 

[Carl V]

Curiouser & curiouser...

I have for years preferentially listened to Mono as means to compare & contrast speakers or whatever_____.
doing so eliminates soundstage, imagining etc., and focuses entirely upon tone & timbre.  It will often require
a MONO source & only one speaker.  Better  to have Mono Lps with a Mono cartridge...Using a stereo needle opens
an entirely different hornets nest.  Using a Stereo Mono switch on a pre-amp has some limitations.  Doing so allows
you to focus on two different speakers quite well.  Using two speakers for MONO produces "fat Mono' ...this notion
of mono/stereo/dual mono is an old argument. phase..etc., come into play.

I just disconnected my bi-wired & biamped Selah Garnet's tweeter wire....Left then Right...I wouldn't say it's an
improvement.  Did the same on SSR...&  SP tech's MTM arrangement ( this has a decent wave guide).  We all have preferences.
And systems vary greatly, as do rooms.  ymmv.

If one were to look at a graph of freq's, for the various instruments & notice how many of the key instruments have their  primary
fundamentals in the range below most tweeter yet most most of the upper harmonics ARE handled by the tweeter region the sonic signature are identifiable by those harmonics.

[werd]

Curiouser & curiouser...

I have for years preferentially listened to Mono as means to compare & contrast speakers or whatever_____.
doing so eliminates soundstage, imagining etc., and focuses entirely upon tone & timbre.  It will often require
a MONO source & only one speaker.  Better  to have Mono Lps with a Mono cartridge...Using a stereo needle opens
an entirely different hornets nest.  Using a Stereo Mono switch on a pre-amp has some limitations.  Doing so allows
you to focus on two different speakers quite well.  Using two speakers for MONO produces "fat Mono' ...this notion
of mono/stereo/dual mono is an old argument. phase..etc., come into play.

I just disconnected my bi-wired & biamped Selah Garnet's tweeter wire....Left then Right...I wouldn't say it's an
improvement.  Did the same on SSR...&  SP tech's MTM arrangement ( this has a decent wave guide).  We all have preferences.
And systems vary greatly, as do rooms.  ymmv.

If one were to look at a graph of freq's, for the various instruments & notice how many of the key instruments have their  primary
fundamentals in the range below most tweeter yet most most of the upper harmonics ARE handled by the tweeter region the sonic signature are identifiable by those harmonics.

A mono cart with the old mono recordings would be ultimate.

Getting the notion of an center image out of play even with 2ch mono was not easy. It's all about that release And it can take hours with commitment to be able to hear two individual channels. I listen to mono before with symetrical stereo playback. Including two tweeters and it's more like stereo than mono when it comes to imaging. You have to be able to hear two channels. use the tweet then close your eyes and listen for the other channel. Make sure the tweeter is not in the center and the tweeter less channel will take over. You think you are looking at the tweeter less channel but in reality you are facing the center.

Taking the tweeter out boosted the midrange up with the hole or baffle where the tweeter was. Stuff like this disrupts the symmetry and makes it easier to concentrate on each channel. Forget about the center image.