[budyog]

WOW! Gone for a few day's to the great north of Minneasota snowmobling and boy did this thread explode!

I have never bought a piece of equipment for looks. I only buy for me, nobody else. What I like most about AVA gear is when I crank up that little T-7SLR along with the rest of the AVA gear hidden away in a closet and watch the reaction of friend's and family. It blows everbody away. All that sound is coming from that!.  
 
If anything, just to give people a choice, maybe a IEC connector on his equipment would be a good thing. For me, remove a few of the switches like the tape1 and 2 and the stereo switch. I like the simpler the better approach.

 NOTICE! Don't anyone reading this thread and take AVA gear off your list without hearing it.

[skrivis]

The new modwright preamp (which ironically is another I've been seriously looking at) is an example of design elegance. He did a nice job.

Since I'm a fa ...

If it's the one shown at: http://www.responseaudio.com/modwright%20linestage.htm

It looks good, but I wonder whether there's enough contrast to see the markings without carrying a flashlight.  

[randog]

The new modwright preamp (which ironically is another I've been seriously looking at) is an example of design elegance. He did a nice job.

Since I'm a fa ...

If it's the one shown at: http://www.responseaudio.com/modwright%20linestage.htm

It looks good, but I wonder whether there's enough contrast to see the markings without carrying a flashlight.  

Yea, but, you never answered my questions.  

[skrivis]

Frank, what kind of tooling are you referring to for the faceplate and chassis? None is required for sheetmetal and machined parts unless you are selling in the 10's of thousands. Modifications here should have minimal impact except for initial cam programming.

Are your switches and pots wired or board mounted? That will go a long way to seeing whether you can simplify your front panel layout with groupings that make intuitive sense rather than using the old-school method of grouping with graphical brack ...

Tooling? I suspect he refers to mounting holes, etc. I suppose the vendor might use a template, but it's also quite possible they use soft-tooling, so changes are easy. The vendor could very well ding you for a setup or change fee.

Looking at the SL preamp faceplate, it's already grouped well. You could just remove the white boxes and see what it looks like. (Photoshop or even a Sharpie on a real faceplate would work.) I guess you could increase the spacing between knobs for more defined grouping, but then you start getting the Vol pot closer and closer to the power supply. I can't imagine that would be _good_ for things, but it might do no real harm.

The EC is already spaced about as far as it can go, so removing the white boxes is the next step. I haven't used an EC chassis, but it also looks like it's grouped logically.

[randog]

Tooling? I suspect he refers to mounting holes, etc.

No offense skrivis, but Frank is in on this thread. He could answer definitively.

I know his controls are grouped well. But it is much more involved than that. Spacing, knob/actuator size and shape, graphics, colors, materials, ergo's, all come into play and must work well together. That was my point.

[avahifi_lj]

Having seen some of the early redesign work a while back I'm pretty sure you won't see white boxes in any new design....

Larry

[WEEZ]

Frank, (and all)

There will never be a product in audio that will please everybody. No matter what. Whether it's looks or sonics- not everyone will agree on 'what's best'. There seem to be a 'few' accepted attributes, however, in high-end audio that seem to have universal acceptance:

1) 17" width
2) IEC connectors
3) minimalist look
4) quality

budyog mentioned the tape 1/2 switch and stereo/mono switch. He apparantly doesn't use them. randog mentioned tone controls in another thread. He, apparantly, uses them. So, you see, it's a dilemma to a designer. What to offer?

To me; whether AVA redesigns the look of the their equipment or not, I am sure that I speak for everyone here, that SONIC performance should rule the day. I am not aware of anybody who dislikes the sound quality of AVA gear. That speaks volumes, IMHO.

(this thread has not been a waste of time, Frank. silly at times, yes. all in good fun. for the most part, any criticism has been intended to be constructive- despite the passion. the quality reproduction of music is, after all, a passionate persuit for all of us)

WEEZ

[skrivis]

Curious skrivis, why do you need high contrast on your preamp? Do you need to read it from your listening position? Don't you have most of it (other than level and position indicators) memorized after the first couple of times of use?

These are honest inquiries. Thanks.

I get the positional cues down pretty quickly. On the SL chassis, Vol, Bal, and Selector fall to hand readily.

Theoretically, I could do without any markings at all. Count so many up from left extreme and you have the Bal centered. Count clicks on Vol. Count clicks on the Selector switch. Memorize what stands for what.

I prefer not to do that though. I'd rather just have legible markings so I can look and tell what's what.

I operate enough of a variety of devices in daily life that I don't need any mystery front panels.

Sure, I might only need to look at the markings infrequently, but it's truly annoying if I try to look and need a flashlight or magnifying glass to do so.

Judging from the pic of the ultrasound device, you value clarity and legibility too. I would consider that keyboard to be fairly high contrast. (It's a bit hard to tell from a photo what it looks like under normal use though.)


Are you perhaps suggesting that labels for knobs should be unobtrusive, while positional markings for those knobs should be higher contrast? (This can't be done with 2 layers of anodizing anyway.)

[randog]

Are you perhaps suggesting that labels for knobs should be unobtrusive, while positional markings for those knobs should be higher contrast? (This can't be done with 2 layers of anodizing anyway.).

Huh? The level indicators are on the knobs. Those are the indicators that require contrast.

That ultrasound machine has backlit graphics. The graphics are easily read with and without backlighting. Each key has a lightpipe piped from an LED on the pcb indicating key function. The keys and paddles are conductive elastomer actuators with a proprietary design allowing either to be used in the same hole. It took 2 years of my life and I could go on for days...  

[avahifi]

This applies to the SL preamp chassis.

The signal switches are snap in mounted to the faceplate itself.  Faceplate thickness limited to .098 to make the switch specs (NKK series M).  The rotary switch and vol and balance controls are mounted to the inner faceplate (part of the main chassis).  Headphone jack mounted to the outer faceplate.  EC type headphone jack could be used, mounted on inner chssis with some chassis modification, but that would require machining panel (inside) side of faceplate to provide space for the jack mounting hardware.

Moving switches and or knob locations requires changing both faceplate and inner chassis, not a big deal if required.  Inner faceplate also supports remote control/mute board which occupies almost all the space between the mono-stereo switch and power switch.

One rocker switch (Tape 1 - Tape 2) can be eliminated as nobody uses that function any more.  Remaining rockers (Input - Tape, Mono - Stereo, Power) could mount horizontally with minor inner face revisions.

I can furnish .pdf files of mechanicals if you are interested.  Thinking about gold or champaign artwork on black background as a possibility that would allow use of stock knobs and switches.

Again, open to suggestions.

Frank Van Alstine

[drystream]

<One rocker switch (Tape 1 - Tape 2) can be eliminated as nobody uses that function any more.>

I wouldn't have bought my T7 ECR if it didn't have 2 tape loops and the switch for them.  I don't often record to cassette anymore, but I do transfer from cassette to CDR and from other sources to CDR.

So it just goes to show--obsolete or unused functions to some are essential features to others.

Maybe it's because I just bought my AVA gear this year, but I don't look forward to a redesign so soon after my purchase.  Everything is laid out logically and falls readily to hand.  If anything, I might change the knobs to match those on my Tascam 122 MKIII cassette deck, which I think is a classic.  Anyone know what diameter the shafts are for the large & small knobs are on the T7?

[John Casler]

Hi Frank and All,

Maybe this website might be helpful and money saving after you decide on the where you want the design to go

Look here:

http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/home/index.htm

[boead]

Hey boead, what is it exactly that you do? I missed that somehow (I did see artist and designer thrown about quite liberally).

I’m not qualified to do industrial design and I never implied so. I have good design skills and taste but… industrial design? With some time, I’m sure I could come up with something but I... Volunteering! Frank is obviously asking for the help. Good!

Myself, I started out in the publishing industry almost 20 years ago. I went to college for Advertising Art and Design, worked as a apprentice for a color separator and film prep houses. Learned publishing and production, worked for a Fortune-500 commercial printer as a production manager, went back to college for Desktop Publishing, worked for a comic book and illustration publisher as a graphic designer and production manager and eventually got into consumer and trade publication as a production coordinator and operations manager. I also manage small projects as an associate publisher. I administer two to three dozen computers as well as an art department.
My only package design experience is with video and CDROM applications. We use to produce product and manufacturer directories on CDROM for the Audio Engineering and Musical Instrument Industries. We also owned a post production studio; I worked closely with studio manager and editors. I do some small-time video editing for multimedia and web applications. Yes, I wear lots of different hats – its fun.

So I appreciate good design.

And don’t get me completely wrong. I understand and sort of appreciate the simplistic look of current AVA gear. Unfortunately it lacks appeal and leans too heavily on simplicity as a byproduct of function and not intention.

Randog, I’m sure your qualified and I hope you come up with something that is stylish and worthy. I really DO like the sound of my AVA, especially with a Harmonic Tech AC-10 power cord.

Frank, I hope you’re not mad at me. I didn’t mean to get disrespectful, just being defensive.

[boead]

To me; whether AVA redesigns the look of the their equipment or not, I am sure that I speak for everyone here, that SONIC performance should rule the day. I am not aware of anybody who dislikes the sound quality of AVA gear. That speaks volumes, IMHO.

Absolutely!! Well said.

[skrivis]

Frank, I hope you’re not mad at me. I didn’t mean to get disrespectful, just being defensive.

Can't speak for Frank, but I imagine everyone here has fairly thick skins, so I doubt anyone is mad.

I know I'm sure not. I've survived 10+ years on Usenet, so I'm used to far worse than anything I've seen here. (Ad hominem attacks are almost de rigueur for Usenet. LOL)

We're coming at this from different directions. You seem to see the package of the equipment as being part of the whole experience. It has to look nice so it can be fully pleasing.

It see it as a tool to reproduce music in my home. The package just has to be functional and the purpose is too delight my ears, not my eyes. For that I can get a Lava Lamp.  

[randog]

In defense of boead, when you work in an industry that demands a high degree of sophistication in design, you tend to be very critical of it in everything you see.

Audio is still pretty cool in that there are a number of entrepeneurs making a go of it, many of whom are here at AC. To expect them to pay the money for industrial design isn't realistic and, anyway, the mechanical packaging of an electronics product usually always takes a back seat no matter how small or large the mfgr is (at least it has in the 25 years I've been doing it!). The focus on electronics is function and I'm glad everyone here agrees that's as it should be.

That said, good industrial and mechanical design is icing on the cake and can give a high level of perceived quality to the customer.

[Tweaker]

I have always been someone who appreciates something that is well built and beautiful to look at, like most of us. The idea that looks aren't important   denies the fact that there is pleasure and pride taken in owning something beautifully designed and  built even if ultimately the purpose is utilitarian, like a watch or a car. I could build a dining room table out of 3/4" plywood with 4x4" legs and some 2x4" reinforcement to keep the plywood from warping and it would last forever and serve the function of a dining room table as well as any you could buy at your nearest furniture store. I don't need to say that I probably couldn't give it away,however, and I don't need to explain why. Most peoples stereos are highly visible and visually dominating- usually the focus of the living room unless you're fortunate enough to have a dedicated room. There is nothing wrong with wanting the componants that make that up to be as visually appealing as possible. So this is a long winded way of saying I'm glad to see Mr. Van Alstine willing to make his stuff more attractive. I never could understood his seeming disdain for the concept. I'll bet he doesn't apply it to his automobile purchases! And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying his equipment is ugly. It's just sort of utilitarian. Not something that will grace a room. (Factor in a wife or girlfriend and the aethetics part becomes even more of an issue!)
 I would like to say also that, in spite of the fact his equipment doesn't have much visual appeal, I own a pair of Omegastar 260EX power amps which are driving a pair of VMPS RM 2's in a vertical bi-amp configuration. Frank really knows how to make an amp sing. Combining the incredible musicality of his gear with a better cosmetic design will complete the package. Hopefully he will offer a faceplate upgrade for existing AVA owners.

[WEEZ]

Hey all,

As I said in a previous post, I think the AVA gear looks okay. Upon further reflection, I would suggest that by simply removing the squares or outlines- whatever you want to call them- would simplify the look and be more appealing.

That would be a no-cost change, I would think.

FWIW,

WEEZ

[skrivis]

I never could understood his seeming disdain for the concept. I'll bet he doesn't apply it to his automobile purchases!...

I have a fairly weird take on cars.

When I'm using one, I'm sitting in the driver's seat. From the driver's seat, you can't see a lot of the outside of the car. So I won't be enjoying a "pretty" car. Therefore, if I buy a pretty car, I'm buying it mainly for _other_ people to look at.

So, when I buy a car, I do it from the inside out. I look for quality, reliability, and good ergonomics and feel when driving. Once I've got the field narrowed down, then I might pick the better-looking car, all other things being equal.

[Tweaker]

skrivis,
Not so weird, atypical  perhaps, and wise for sure!
  Fortunatately we don't have our cars parked in a prominant place in our living rooms!
 I'm in the market for new speakers and every one I am giving serious consideration to I have my wife check out to see if she likes the looks ok. Now she is very cool about such things and I would have to bring home something pretty ugly or weird looking for her to get upset. But I do want for her to be happy with the way it looks because it will dominate the room as I'm looking for full range floor standers. There is no shortage of fine sounding and beautifully crafted speakers on the market, however, so I don't think I have to worry about it too much. She really likes the Usher 6 series with the gloss black finish and the Lorelei's as well so I'm in good shape.