AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?

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John Ashman

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #60 on: 27 Mar 2005, 07:30 pm »
Quote from: avahifi
Lets see any of you cable junkies start with a clean sheet of paper and come up with a good audio amplifier design from the ground up all by yourself.  Fat chance!

Frank Van Alstine


Easy Frank!  

Let's just say this, a properly designed power amplifier or preamp couldn't possible benefit from a power cable because the power supply would filter properly and store *plenty* of power to operate the circuitry.  If you have something that is benefitting from a high-end power cord, either you are imagining things or the product isn't designed very well.  

Besides, people look at threads over and over because of controversy, so it only takes one view to notice good news, but the same person might come to this thread 50 times to argue or to see how the argument is progressing and see if names are being called yet.  So, I'd say the amp thread is going probably 5:1 in real terms versus this one.

"Uncle Frank, tell me again the story about how B&W stopped building good product in order to go mass market - I *like* that story"  :D

1PsychProf

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #61 on: 27 Mar 2005, 08:21 pm »
Boead-

I got the phono section for free during his summer sale, is that good enough for you?

AVA,

I really didn't know that this board was simply for audio engineers to discuss designs for new products.  I apologize for my off-topic posts.  I thought this forum was like the AA except we have forums to talk about specific manufacturers components.  I know nothing about the workings of amps, pre-amps and such, but I have been a satisfied user of AVA products for some time.

I for one, am always interested in new designs by AVA.  In fact, I have them on my favorites list and check in every week or so to see if they have anything new.  Now I feel like I've been scolded for posting in your area.  Sorry, will refrain from doing so in the future.

warnerwh

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #62 on: 27 Mar 2005, 11:16 pm »
I think Frank came off a little strong but you can see he has little patience with pseudo science.  I'm sure you can post anything you want here as long as it isn't about cables.  For that Audio Central would be the place even if it's in regards to AVA products.

boead

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #63 on: 28 Mar 2005, 12:45 am »
Quote from: avahifi
Lets see any of you cable junkies start with a clean sheet of paper and come up with a good audio amplifier design from the ground up all by yourself.  Fat chance!
 


Well as a artist/designer I’d like to see any of you electronic junkies start with a clean sheet of paper and come up with a good looking design from the ground up all by yourself.  Fat chance, ah Frank?

No smoke and mirrors its just plain old magic. And remember magic is science not yet understood, since you guys are the ‘experts’ – start understanding and try explaining it to us stupid folk.
See I hear it but can’t explain it; you don’t want to hear it because you can’t explain it!

Hogg

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #64 on: 28 Mar 2005, 03:26 am »
Quote
Lets see any of you cable junkies start with a clean sheet of paper and come up with a good audio amplifier design from the ground up all by yourself. Fat chance!


Hey Frank, take a breath.  It's just a hobby for most of us.

                                                                    Jim

randog

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #65 on: 28 Mar 2005, 05:31 am »
Hey boead, it must feel awqward being blindsided by the creator of a small market product of whom you've supported by purchasing his product... as it is indeed awqward.

To show great integrity in your principals you probably feel like dumping your T7 for a fraction of it's original purchase price. If you decide to, I will take the plunge and buy it from you. I also desire my expensive gear to look good (not to please anyone else but myself). However, it has everything I'm looking for in a pre and for a fraction of its hefty price as new, I think it would look right at home on my shelf right next to my butt-ugly Marchand crossover (also bought used at a fraction of its retail $). Whaddya say?  :P

skrivis

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #66 on: 28 Mar 2005, 11:48 am »
Quote from: boead
I have a hard time with its looks. I said that. Its perception is that it is a cheap and//or old opice of stereo ware. I’m sorry for being so honest, From talking to other Van Alstine owners via email over the past few months we’ve laughed at “

Weez, Hey man, how is it cool looking? Is it in that sort of old/retro sort of campy way? I’m knocking your opinion, I understand. I’m an artist by nature and profession. I like design, style and form very much so. I only bought the AVA because I trusted its sound quality and I’m keeping it because of the very same quality in sound and make. I NEVER said it was poorly made, it’s certainly not.
 ...


As I said earlier, I actually prefer a brushed aluminum faceplate with black lettering. However, the black with white lettering plates that AVA uses are quite well done too. High quality, legible, and simplistic.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that...  :)

I also feel that, with stereo equipment, beauty is in the listening, and money should go into making the equipment sound better. By that standard AVA gear is beautiful.  :)

If anyone feels that it's ugly, they can probably have a local shop make up a replacement faceplate to their taste. I'm sure it won't be cheap, but it can be done...

boead

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #67 on: 28 Mar 2005, 12:38 pm »
What you re saying is just so mundane. 'No I don’t need any salt on my potatoes, I think they’re just fine plainly boiled as they were meant to be.' All I can say is Bon appetite!

Quote from: skrivis
… money should go into making the equipment sound better...


Shrives, seven pages and you haven’t heard actually read or comprehended a word I said. Re-read the post and pay attention this time. Oh my now my head is going to explode!

BTW: I’ve driven cars where function follows necessity and its not any fun. I have also driven cars where form follows function where necessity is meaningless. Do you want me to list them? Or do you get the point?

avahifi

OK, lets change the subject to product styling.
« Reply #68 on: 28 Mar 2005, 12:49 pm »
We are thinking about changing the looks of our equipment.  We could use some help from you graphic artists out there.

Some constraints make it kinda tough.

1.  Finding off the shelf knobs and switches that are decent looking is nearly impossible.  We don't own our own two million dollar tool and die department to whip up whatever the designers draw.  There is some stuff that works with a black background, but almost nothing that works with silver without the huge expense of designing your own from the ground up.

2.  Lead times for new mechanical bits are long long long.  Any significant layout changes require new tooling for faceplates, inner chassis, and PC board layouts too.

3.  So, come up with a new "theme" that works within the context of our existing knobs, switches, controls, and mechanical layout, and that can be applied to the SL, EC, DAC, and big amplifier faceplates and we will be all eyes.

For your information, our faceplate finish process is a "double anodize" process with a silkscreened wax etch resist applied to allow a two color anodize.  Note that the text and art can change to a different color, could be done in a gold shade, for example. Note also that there is a finite limit as to how thin lines and lettering can be and work with the double anodize process. Knobs are much tougher, available at rational prices and looks in silver or black only, switches much tougher yet, available with black bezels, and some awful colors (red, yellow, blue, etc) but nothing that would match a silver faceplate for example.

Hey do it right, and we might even do a removeable power cord socket for you guys too.

P.S.  It would be nice if a new styling job could be available as a reasonably priced retrofit to existing product to make you guys that are unhappy with our looks now happy.

So stop complaining, and start designing.

Frank Van Alstine

skrivis

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #69 on: 28 Mar 2005, 01:13 pm »
Quote from: John Ashman
"Uncle Frank, tell me again the story about how B&W stopped building good product in order to go mass market - I *like* that story" icon_biggrin.gif
/quote]


Wasn't that back in the '60s... around the time Bud stopped being the US Distributor... LOL

boead

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #70 on: 28 Mar 2005, 01:41 pm »
Quote from: randog
Hey boead, it must feel awqward being blindsided by the creator of a small market product of whom you've supported by purchasing his product... as it is indeed awqward.

To show great integrity in your principals you probably feel like dumping your T7 for a fraction of it's original purchase price. If you decide to, I will take the plunge and buy it from you. I also desire my expensive gear to look good (not to please anyone else but myself). However, it has everything I'm looking for in a pre and for a f ...


Awkward? Umm, no. Annoyed and disgusted? Yes!
Frank really knows how to make his customers feel confident with their purchasing decision. Thanks Frank. Funny when I asked you about the specs of the T7’s preamps input section in regards to a cathode follower (tube buffer) I was considering at one time for my Denon DVD-2900; your response was vague, you told me the cathode follower was a waste of time and that it would just make the player sound worse (100% contradictory to everyone else’s opinion, tell you something?) and then suggested I buy one of your DAC. LOL – what a salesman!

Sell it cheap? NO! It’ll go for fair market value when it does. Apparently they go for about $1000 on Audiogon.

When I bought it used I did so because of its good reviews, I was warned about its not so appealing looks. When it arrived the exact words from my mouth were; ‘what the fuck, you got to be kidding me.’ My partner in the office looked at it and laughed. Not that I cared he laughed, we’ve know each other for over 20 years but he knows I like nice things and at the same time I did, he saw how cheap it looked. In closer inspection, I found it was made ok. I mean if it was any worse, it would be junk. When I saw the lamp cord coming out of the back I actually got annoyed. And that’s what this thread was about! Replacing the lamp cord with something better. I did and it does.

Like I said earlier in this thread, when I do a direct comparison to the BAT VK3i if the AVA doesn’t blow it away, it may be going away. I expect it to fair well to the BAT, it should. It cost almost as much and its made with a fraction of materials and expense, so what I am paying for with an AVA T7? If it doesn’t have superior sonic qualities then it’s a farce.

boead

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #71 on: 28 Mar 2005, 01:45 pm »
Quote from: avahifi
…So stop complaining, and start designing....


I get paid for that, quite well actually.

skrivis

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #72 on: 28 Mar 2005, 01:54 pm »
Quote from: boead
What you re saying is just so mundane. 'No I don’t need any salt on my potatoes, I think they’re just fine plainly boiled as they were meant to be.' All I can say is Bon appetite!

Shrives, seven pages and you haven’t heard actually read or comprehended a word I said. Re-read the post and pay attention this time. Oh my now my head is going to explode!

BTW: I’ve driven cars where function follows necessity and its not any fun. I have also driven cars where form follows function where necessity is meaningless. Do you want me to list them? Or do you get the point?


I don't eat white potatos, they're really bad for you.  :lol:

So what was I missing? You chose AVA because of function, but aren't happy because of form.

I was simply pointing out that, unlike engineering principles, appreciation of form is totally subjective.

So, I like the way AVA gear looks, and that's every bit as valid a viewpoint as yours - and I don't care whether you're an artist or not.

I like it. Full stop. End of story. Game over. You lose. :)

Ok, that was hyperbole, but I hope I made my point. Frank, as an engineer, has to concentrate on function, and the art of the possible. If the end result is still pleasing to the eye, that's wonderful. But I wouldn't want function to play second fiddle to form, since I actually have to use the stuff. If I want artwork, I'll buy another Ansel Adams print. :)


(Note that Frank has talked about the "I like it" stuff in terms of function, and "I like it" isn't really good enough there.)

I do hope you take up Frank's challenge and come up with a new design for AVA gear. I might very well like it better than the current scheme (or not), as long as it's still cost-effective. I don't wish to pay more for the "massive" look, of which Rowland is a good example, and I'm not even sure I would prefer gear that's built to look like a golden bridge abutment.

The current look is utilitarian. Some would consider that to be aesthetically pleasing. I tend to appreciate a rather minimalist look (think Japanese rock garden) rather than a rococco or other overdone (IMO) look.

The new design has to be legible. I prefer fairly dim lighting while relaxing and listening, so the new look should feature high contrast. I also don't like really tiny lettering (especially as my eyes get older), even if it were possible to do.

There was a lot of older Carver gear that was a perfect example of how form can screw up function. It was kind of a bronze with beige lettering. Contrast was extremely low. It looked great sitting on the dealer's shelf, especially since the local dealer had a brown theme to his store.

But... it was impossible to actually use in other than harsh, direct lighting. Even then you had to move your head around to make out what some of the labels said.

As I've said a few times, I actually prefer the old Dynaco look, with brushed aluminum and black lettering. The champagne look was good too. I actually chose the silver faceplate for my T2 preamp over a black one. But so few customers evidently chose silver that they stopped offering that option.

Since it's going to have to be the black look, the current theme is fine since it's legible. It works better than some black equipment I've seen. And, overall, it looks good sitting on my shelves, which are black also, so it disappears to some extent with a bit of distance.

So, given the constraints Frank has delineated, I look forward to your making AVA gear more pleasing to the eye while still retaining all the functionality. Go to it!

skrivis

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #73 on: 28 Mar 2005, 02:09 pm »
Quote from: boead
...so what I am paying for with an AVA T7? ...


Umm... competent engineering?

It's been quite well proven to me over the years that AVA does well at engineering audio equipment. The build quality and layout are excellent, and the sound is superb. I'm also confident that I can buy any AVA design and have them upgrade the circuits over the years, and that the chassis will be durable enough to allow this.

My main amp at this point is an OmegaStar that's in a Hafler DH-220 chassis that I bought as a kit about 20 years ago. It's been back to AVA from time to time to have the guts upgraded. The metalwork performs quite as well as it did when I first bought it, and I fully expect to keep it around as long as I want.

It sounds superb, functions perfectly, is very cost-effective, and has a long, long lifespan. What more could you want?

nathanm

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #74 on: 28 Mar 2005, 03:46 pm »
Quote from: Otis
Give us all a break and let us see your new face plate design!  :P

I second that.  It looks like there's four screws holding on the faceplate.  I assume it could be removed, scanned on a flatbed scanner and mocked up in Photoshop or Illustrator with the desired graphics.

randog

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #75 on: 28 Mar 2005, 04:06 pm »
Frank, you don't need a graphic designer, you need an industrial designer or product designer. I am a freelance product designer and am comng up on my 10 year anniversary of employment independence in that endeavor. Your up-front cost for design is just that, but good design doesn't necessarily need to cost you any more on a unit manufacturing basis.

The new modwright preamp (which ironically is another I've been seriously looking at) is an example of design elegance. He did a nice job.

Since I'm a fan of your equipment and audio know-how and attitude, I'm sure we could work something out towards a swap of services and price of goods. Ping me offline if interested.

Randy

Hey boead, what is it exactly that you do? I missed that somehow (I did see artist and designer thrown about quite liberally)

randog

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #76 on: 28 Mar 2005, 04:27 pm »
Curious skrivis, why do you need high contrast on your preamp? Do you need to read it from your listening position? Don't you have most of it (other than level and position indicators) memorized after the first couple of times of use?

These are honest inquiries. Thanks.

randog

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #77 on: 28 Mar 2005, 05:09 pm »
Frank, after re-reading your post I'm not sure whether it is completely sarcastic or not. If you are serious about a better looking product then there's much you can do within your current constraints. Look at the products offered by other small mfgrs right here on AC; they have all of the same issues to deal with yet many have found ways to make it work. Ironically, I don't think the mfgrs I have in mind employed a designer either, but seem to have a pretty good design eye themselves.

I worked as a Sr. Mechanical Engineer for a medical ultrasound company for years before going out on my own and I schooled in Industrial Design (the 'art' and ergo's in products). In my experience, the more ingenius an engineer is, the less value he puts in design. That's stereotyping, but think of it as a right-brain, left-brain thing.  :D If you see no value in design and ergo's, then you are reading this while rolling your eyes and this is a wasted effort. When I re-read your post, that's the impression I get. I may be wrong.

It's not an all-or-nothing thing and your post makes it seem like you've completely researched it and it's a lost cause from the get go, so why bother. It also implies that any undertaking will require new tooling, changes in tooling, revisions trickling through the whole unit (pcb's, etc) *and* right through your whole product line! To me, that sounds like a rationalization for no improvement at all.

This is meant to invoke a positive and thoughtful discussion and nothing more. If you are offended, I apologize up front and I will exit quickly if the discussion turns sour out of respect for your involvement here and your contributions to the audio industry on the whole.

avahifi

I am serious, and your input is appreciated.
« Reply #78 on: 28 Mar 2005, 05:23 pm »
I AM serious about a major styling facelift.

The constrains I listed are there just to spell out the limitations as to what is likely possible within the context of existing hardware bits and pieces.

Am I interested in trading equipment in exchange for a useful product line restyling job?  You bet!

Frank Van Alstine

randog

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #79 on: 28 Mar 2005, 05:37 pm »
Frank, what kind of tooling are you referring to for the faceplate and chassis? None is required for sheetmetal and machined parts unless you are selling in the 10's of thousands. Modifications here should have minimal impact except for initial cam programming.

Are your switches and pots wired or board mounted? That will go a long way to seeing whether you can simplify your front panel layout with groupings that make intuitive sense rather than using the old-school method of grouping with graphical brackets which tend to make the front panel look busier than it needs to. My suggestion to get 1/2 way there on your own is to minimize and simplify the graphics and to organize the actuators and knobs such that the groupings are intuitive. You have an additional challenge in that you offer more features than most mfgrs and finding the right knobs and switches (size and style) is critical (you already know that).

I mentioned before that I worked for an ultrasound company. Have you ever seen the keyboard on an ultrasound machine? My major responsibility was the mechanical layout and design of the keyboard on the Acuson Sequoia system. Believe me, audio front panels are cake in comparison.  :wink: I have no doubt you can do some major improvement on your own with limited effort. I'm more than happy to help in whatever capacity you choose.



Best regards,
Randy