AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: Bingenito on 27 Mar 2022, 07:35 pm
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Associated equipment
DAC/ Source: MSB Premier with Powerbase and network renderer or Jays Audio CDT2 MKIII
Preamp: Pass Labs XP22
Amp: Pass Labs X250.8
Interconnects: Acoustic Zen Absolute Copper XLR x2
Digital: Acoustic Zen Absolute 110
Power cords: Acoustic Zen Krakatoa on all gear except Pass X250.8 which uses Gargantua II
Speaker Cables: Acoustic Zen Hologram II
Subwoofers: REL Carbon Special x2
Room:18’x30’ with a ceiling that is varied height so over 6,000cuft total fully treated by GIK Acoustics
My Spatial Audio Lab X4s have 350hrs on them and within those hours have been driven hard with dynamic music. To that end I am fairly confident that they are broken in but if they somehow get better so be it but I am going to call it good where they are.
To cut to the chase, if you have a large room and can properly place these speakers paired with gear to set them up for success then you are in for a treat. With that out of the way who are these speakers for? My view is that they are for those who value a large open sound with dynamics.
OK great but define open and dynamic… Deep and wide soundstage with precise imaging, high resolution that is capable of delivering material contrast in quiet vs. explosive and do so effortlessly.
Can they scale and reveal system changes? I ran these speakers with Pass XP12 and then XP22. Denafrips Terminator II and then my current MSB DAC. Each time the change in sound was material so these speakers can really scale in any system.
Do you need subs? No you do not however I am using them due to the volume of my room to gain some pressure below 35hz. In my room the X4s alone measured with an F6 at 34hz and dropped off relatively sharp after that which I totally expected. Not many instruments generate bass below 40hz so I really debated adding subwoofers. When I A/B with and without I could live without the subs for 85% of music but I am not one to half ass anything so screw it…
As I have said before my favorite system to date was Magnepans with JL subs in a former setup (Pic below shows some former systems). I got out of this hobby and decided to get back in and found some great systems and speakers over the last 2 yrs. That said what I have in my room now is what I was searching for. It is the last word is resolution without harshness (if you set them up properly), soundstage is insane and the dynamics will freakin startle you if the music calls for it.
The pairing with the REL Carbon specials takes everything up a couple of notches as the stage gets even wider, well beyond the speakers and the foundation of the bottom octave from 16-32hz is there when it needs to be (confirmed with room measurements). Zero integration issues and no issues keeping up with the X4s. Standing in the room with 20hz test tones is not something that I would want to do for 5 mins.
Do I recommend the X4s? Hell Yes I do.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=238909)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=238910)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=238911)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=238912)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=238165)
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Very nice! You are in for a treat when you hit +\- 500 hrs.
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Do I recommend the X4s? Hell Yes I do.
Pretty much sums up my feelings on my Spatial speakers, too! :thumb:
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Thanks for taking the time to write that up. Glad you are enjoying them.
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Pretty much sums up my feelings on my Spatial speakers, too!
Yes sir! Sometimes saying less is in fact saying more. I am not wasting my time to write a long winded review. The pics show systems that I have owned and this is the best for my preference so that to me says enough. Now I got some music to listen to if you will excuse me 8)
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Do you need subs? No you do not however I am using them due to the volume of my room to gain some pressure below 35hz. In my room the X4s alone measured with an F6 at 34hz and dropped off relatively sharp after that which I totally expected. Not many instruments generate bass below 40hz so I really debated adding subwoofers. When I A/B with and without I could live without the subs for 85% of music but I am not one to half ass anything so screw it…
I kept my two SVS SB13 Ultra subwoofers as well. I relocated them to the back of my room because my X3s up front have built in subs. After living with my X3s for several months, I ended up crossing them over to the subs at 40 Hz. My room is well over 5,000 CF so I agree, the subs are helpful. I also use my X3s for home theater so the LFE channel goes to the subs, of course.
Marcus
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Yes subs make sense for larger rooms. If my room was half the size I could easily go without them. The bass on the X4s with the Pass X250.8 is the best quality bass that I have ever heard. The subs just add the bottom end grunt to pressurize the larger space.
My HT room is separate but after I set this up in my music room I thought about merging the 2 systems which would be killer but then I have a fully treated room where my HT is that would be empty. Probably best for me to leave well enough alone and then I don't have to buy a projector and drop down screen.
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Now at over 600hrs I have arrived at what I believe will be the final positioning of the X4 and subs. The main difference is pushing the speakers about 9" apart from their acoustic centers (9.5ft total) and using slightly less toe in. Subs are also angled with more toe in and crossover over at 20hz.
Instead of specifying toe in degrees I will say that using a laser level on the center of the speaker the beam is exactly 41" from the center of my head left and right and I am 10.5' away from the baffles. In other words AMT centers are 114" apart and 10.5ft away the laser impacts 41" side to side for a total of 82".
With this new positioning and subs to the outside the soundstage is massive but not artificially inflated. Center imaging is locked in yet the stage extends well beyond the speakers. Tone is better and bass is mind-blowing. I did test the MSB DAC direct to Pass Labs X250.8 and it was close but I preferred the Pass XP22 in the chain by a small margin. If I bite the bullet and go for the MSB reference I would drop the preamp for sure as the Reference uses an analog volume control where the Premier that I have uses a hybrid.
On my front wall I have heavy drapes but on reference tracks I did notice some minor smearing of vocals so I snagged a few more panels from my office that fully treated for desktop near field and threw those behind the drapes + 2 more panels, 1 behind each speaker. That really improved imaging by a wide margin due to dampening the rear wave.
I bring these tuning/ tweaks up because I see that some of you chase gear to solve a problem caused by the room interaction and not gear. $300 in proper acoustic treatment can solve a problem that your $15k in gear chasing over the years could never solve.
As a side note I did have company over and tested some of the other speakers that I still own that are in the same ballpark on pricing. Everyone preferred the X4 due to the larger stage, more open and dynamic sound. When asked why the preference most said... because they sound real and the other speakers sound like really good speakers. Since real is what we are going for I will take it.
Don't ask me what the other speakers were because I am not here to declare brand is better than B. In my room with my system the Spatials just work better. If you are really curious you can figure it out.
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That looks like an incredible setup and room you got there! How far off the front wall do you have the X4’s?
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Thank you!
5’ 2” from the front wall to the back of the speaker baffle. With the room being 30ft deep there is 14.5ft of open room behind me before the reflection off the rear wall.
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Now at over 600hrs I have arrived at what I believe will be the final positioning of the X4 and subs. The main difference is pushing the speakers about 9" apart from their acoustic centers (9.5ft total) and using slightly less toe in. Subs are also angled with more toe in and crossover over at 20hz.
Instead of specifying toe in degrees I will say that using a laser level on the center of the speaker the beam is exactly 41" from the center of my head left and right and I am 10.5' away from the baffles. In other words AMT centers are 114" apart and 10.5ft away the laser impacts 41" side to side for a total of 82".
With this new positioning and subs to the outside the soundstage is massive but not artificially inflated. Center imaging is locked in yet the stage extends well beyond the speakers. Tone is better and bass is mind-blowing. I did test the MSB DAC direct to Pass Labs X250.8 and it was close but I preferred the Pass XP22 in the chain by a small margin. If I bite the bullet and go for the MSB reference I would drop the preamp for sure as the Reference uses an analog volume control where the Premier that I have uses a hybrid.
On my front wall I have heavy drapes but on reference tracks I did notice some minor smearing of vocals so I snagged a few more panels from my office that fully treated for desktop near field and threw those behind the drapes + 2 more panels, 1 behind each speaker. That really improved imaging by a wide margin due to dampening the rear wave.
I bring these tuning/ tweaks up because I see that some of you chase gear to solve a problem caused by the room interaction and not gear. $300 in proper acoustic treatment can solve a problem that your $15k in gear chasing over the years could never solve.
As a side note I did have company over and tested some of the other speakers that I still own that are in the same ballpark on pricing. Everyone preferred the X4 due to the larger stage, more open and dynamic sound. When asked why the preference most said... because they sound real and the other speakers sound like really good speakers. Since real is what we are going for I will take it.
Don't ask me what the other speakers were because I am not here to declare brand is better than B. In my room with my system the Spatials just work better. If you are really curious you can figure it out.
Thanks for the update. It is great whenever someone circles back and provides their final setup specs.
What benefit are the subs provided when crossed over at 20 Hz?
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What benefit are the subs provided when crossed over at 20 Hz?
A lot when the crossover slope fills in the bottom octave that the X4s cannot reproduce in my room! Crossovers are not a vertical wall they are gradual slopes so picture the X4 dropping off rather sharply in room at 36hz and the Carbon Specials filling that void but not adding or summing bass which creates bloat and muddy bass.
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Good point. Still awfully low. I'm surprised they are doing much but clearly they are otherwise you wouldn't bother. Do your subs have an adjustable slope and if so, did you experiment? What is the slope you use?
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Carbon Specials use a custom filter. Know that I shoot near field and listening position measurements so this is not at all guesswork.
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Carbon Specials use a custom filter. Know that I shoot near field and listening position measurements so this is not at all guesswork.
Congrats on putting together an incredible system. I have the M3 Sapphires but in a much smaller room: 13X20, so I haven't hooked my subs up and don't miss them. Unfortunately my room will always be the limiting factor on the sound I am able to achieve but I still thoroughly enjoy the Spatials. Clayton recommended the M3s for my room (I thought they would be too big) but the magic of open baffle bass means that they have very satisfying bass without overloading the room at volumes up to 90 db "C"-weighted.
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Congrats on putting together an incredible system. I have the M3 Sapphires but in a much smaller room: 13X20, so I haven't hooked my subs up and don't miss them. Unfortunately my room will always be the limiting factor on the sound I am able to achieve but I still thoroughly enjoy the Spatials. Clayton recommended the M3s for my room (I thought they would be too big) but the magic of open baffle bass means that they have very satisfying bass without overloading the room at volumes up to 90 db "C"-weighted.
The beauty of good OB speakers is that they really are the best approach to getting good sound in problematic rooms.
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MSB Reference DAC and Puritan PSM156 ordered. Will post new impression in a few weeks after that. Pass XP22 is going on US Audiomart and I will be running DAC direct to the X250.8.
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MSB Reference DAC and Puritan PSM156 ordered. Will post new impression in a few weeks after that. Pass XP22 is going on US Audiomart and I will be running DAC direct to the X250.8.
Congrats! The Puritan and Ground Master work very well for me. Of course, an MSB would be nice too :thumb:
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Thanks! Stay tuned :)
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I have the X5's in a room slightly smaller than yours.
It's very interesting that the component that's the "highest end" or at least most expensive (I think?) is the dac! How did you make the choice to splurge (the most) on that?
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My experience (yours may vary and thats cool) tells me that the source matters most once you get to a good place on power amp and speakers. My DAC is my source and preamp so that is where I invest.
Others have a belief that they can buy into better sound with speakers and skimp on their source and or amp. That has not at all been my experience. So my rational is to put the most coin at process step 1 in the signal path because as good as the speakers are they cannot make up something in step 3 that was lost in steps 1 & 2.
Everyone spend your cash as you wish and so will I :)
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My experience (yours may vary and thats cool) tells me that the source matters most once you get to a good place on power amp and speakers. My DAC is my source and preamp so that is where I invest.
Others have a belief that they can buy into better sound with speakers and skimp on their source and or amp. That has not at all been my experience. So my rational is to put the most coin at process step 1 in the signal path because as good as the speakers are they cannot make up something in step 3 that was lost in steps 1 & 2.
Everyone spend your cash as you wish and so will I :)
Agree...regardless what the source is, it is the most important link...garbage in, garbage out.
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My experience (yours may vary and thats cool) tells me that the source matters most once you get to a good place on power amp and speakers. My DAC is my source and preamp so that is where I invest.
Others have a belief that they can buy into better sound with speakers and skimp on their source and or amp. That has not at all been my experience. So my rational is to put the most coin at process step 1 in the signal path because as good as the speakers are they cannot make up something in step 3 that was lost in steps 1 & 2.
Everyone spend your cash as you wish and so will I :)
Cash isn't the only criteria for what works best. My amp is by far the cheapest part of my system and I will be buried with it.
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My experience (yours may vary and thats cool) tells me that the source matters most once you get to a good place on power amp and speakers. My DAC is my source and preamp so that is where I invest.
Others have a belief that they can buy into better sound with speakers and skimp on their source and or amp. That has not at all been my experience. So my rational is to put the most coin at process step 1 in the signal path because as good as the speakers are they cannot make up something in step 3 that was lost in steps 1 & 2.
Everyone spend your cash as you wish and so will I :)
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No one piece makes a good sounding system, look at it as a whole unit that has to work together. A good front end is important but then your preamp takes that signal and passes it on to the amp, then your amp has to be able to drive the speakers and their changing impedances and current needs. Then your room surrounds you and the sound that comes out of the speakers reflects and bounces around your room. Then speaker setup impacts the sound you hear at your seat. A great speaker in a bad room equals poor sound, good speakers in a good room and right room size works better than the more expensive speaker would. So look at your system as a whole being that gives you the total of its pieces, so balance out your quality throughout and fix your room which will be cheaper than changing gear in and out or spending more and more on gear and still not feeling satisfied.
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I assume that you are speaking generally since the rest of my system and room is squared away.
My point is that assuming you have everything squared away and you are going to upgrade something, the source matters.
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I assume that you are speaking generally since the rest of my system and room is squared away.
My point is that assuming you have everything squared away and you are going to upgrade something, the source matters.
In general of course. You know a preamp matters it the traffic cop of any system. Impedance matching matters between preamp and amp. Starts at the source and can get screwed up along the way from a poor preamp.
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I assume that you are speaking generally since the rest of my system and room is squared away.
My point is that assuming you have everything squared away and you are going to upgrade something, the source matters.
The source is the most important part of the chain...no matter what you put in rest of the system, the performance is dependent on the source.
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@Bingenito
I bet that DAC is going to sound amazing. Source is very important. No doubt. Some people choose to spend money on components differently.
One thing to point out, that gets criticized and overlooked, is the quality of the outlets and powercord coming from the outlet to the source. Curous what you have for that?
Did you happen to try this ($50k?) Dac in your system before committing to it? I am assuming you have, but just curious.
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Wow you just said that Cables Matter!!! J/K I have furutech outlets and Acoustic Zen Gargantua (power amp) and Krakatoa power cords (everything else including the subs).
As for trying the Reference DAC... Nope. I have lived with the Premier with the Powerbase now for 45 days and it is the single most transformational thing that I have ever done to my system. There is general consensus that the Reference gets your more information and not at the usual expense of brightness. Instead it is smoother, more natural and musical (hybrid DACs, power supplies, analog volume control, etc.). So based on what I am hearing I have zero concerns.
Keep in mind... I'm selling off a Preamp, ICs, Power cable and other gear from a 2nd system. Again to each their own... everyone do you :)
Underlying point here if anyone missed it is that the Spatials are that good.
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Quick updates
1- I took the REL subs out and they are for Sale on US Audiomart. Now that the X4s are fully broken in I prefer the sound without subs. I learned a lesson that you can all learn here for free. Yes these speakers sound great out of the box but before you make a big or expensive move make sure that they have over 500hrs on them because now the bass is spectacular.
2- MSB Reference DAC should be only around 2-3 weeks out.
3- I just ordered a pair of Apollon Audio PNC1200 monos with Weiss op amps. My intention is to run them with another pair of speakers but will likely do a shootout on the X4s. Running a Pass X250.8 today and love it.
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Quick updates
1- I took the REL subs out and they are for Sale on US Audiomart. Now that the X4s are fully broken in I prefer the sound without subs. I learned a lesson that you can all learn here for free. Yes these speakers sound great out of the box but before you make a big or expensive move make sure that they have over 500hrs on them because now the bass is spectacular.
2- MSB Reference DAC should be only around 2-3 weeks out.
3- I just ordered a pair of Apollon Audio PNC1200 monos with Weiss op amps. My intention is to run them with another pair of speakers but will likely do a shootout on the X4s. Running a Pass X250.8 today and love it.
Any updates? ;-)
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The MSB Reference has been here for about a month and is a solid step up from the Premier. Soundstage extends far beyond my walls which is ~4ft off the sides of each speaker, tonal balance and dynamics improved as well. The Apollon amps should arrive in the next 2 weeks (fingers crossed).
I will post a full update with photos once the amps are in and fully vetted.
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What would be the reasons for preferring the fully passive X4 over the X3?
With the X3 for only $500 more you get greater bass extension, higher sensitivity and higher impedance. I know there are different models of drivers and no idea how they compare.
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What would be the reasons for preferring the fully passive X4 over the X3?
With the X3 for only $500 more you get greater bass extension, higher sensitivity and higher impedance. I know there are different models of drivers and no idea how they compare.
If you want to run low watt tube amps, there's no comparison, the X3 is much better.
Mid to high powered tube amps would work well with the X4's, as would most SS amps. The X4 is also smaller, and might fit better into small rooms.
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Agree with Tyson on the amp comment.
I have a very large room and prefer high power solid state amps over tube amps. My system, room and use case dictated the speaker as there is no best... just best for the application and preference e.g. Framing hammer vs finish hammer... both hammers but for different applications.
I will say that I am a fan of bass and the X4s with some power strapped to them will shake the **** out of your entire house. Room is 30x18 and never have I said that I want more bass. Had 2 REL Carbon specials and when the X4 was fully broken in I sold them. New out of the box the Rels added bottom end but after I crossed 500hrs I tried it again and this was no longer the case.
Amps used so far have been, Kinki B7 monos, Pass X250.8, ATI NC525 borrowed from my HT room to test Class D, VTV Purifi with Sparkos Pro. Might loose my audiophile card but the Class D amps do a better job with the X4 in my opinion. Is what it is... I just call it as I hear it. The power and control just pays dividends.
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... My amp is by far the cheapest part of my system and I will be buried with it.
Probably in a shallow grave in the back yard dug by your wife. I fully expect my wife to bury me in one of my speakers. :thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57075)
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I fully expect my wife to bury me in one of my speakers.
Seems like a good reason to get a gym membership and bigger speakers man... :thumb:
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Bingenito's comment re: class D amps delivering the sonic goods is precisely my experience with M3's. Yes, they sound amazing with 50 watts class A tubes but when I hooked up the 300 watt Bel Canto eRef 600's I was astonished at the sound quality. Detail, resolution, transparency and tonal density to burn. But the bass, quantity, quality, texture, presence just stands out! So I went from 100 lb. monoblocks to 15 lb. monoblocks with almost no discernible loss in sound quality. If we lose our audiophile credentials so be it. We have the music to sooth us... BTW, I'm still using tubes but I write for those considering class D - don't let circuit topology determine your options....
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It's true, the X series does sound very good with high powered amps. I'm not running Class D, but I do have a pair of Odyssey Kismet monoblocks and the sound is incredible.
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Yes to the high powered amp crowd. I had a DAC Megaschino with my prior X-5’s and current X-3’s and loved it. Amazing pairing and I would have kept it but for the lack of repair options with the
Asking of the manufacturer.
Currently have a Don Sachs Pre and Amp combo and happy to have these tubes as well. Each sounds better on different genres.
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This is why I like AudioCircle... We respect each others preferences. Nice to see that I do not need to turn in my Audiophile card because I like Class D and solid state amps. Like others have mentioned tubes are cool as well. I just leave music playing 24/7 so have generally leaned to solid state.
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New Apollon Audio PNC1200s arrived and are running in. If you look back at my prior photos I removed a lot of the room treatments as I tested with and without. Since I prefer a large soundstage that extends beyond the speakers I prefer the X4s without room treatments. The midrange and treble now sounds much more holographic and I gave up little to nothing in the bass since the dipoles don't load the room nearly as much as a box speaker. Behind the curtain is treated and that is a positive improvement in separation.
I used to run a MSB Premier >Pass Xp22 >X250.8 and now just MSB Reference > Apollon PNC1200. All of these changes have resulted in a material improvement in sound and rival anything that I have personally heard. Having been to many hifi shows the conditions are so poor... I am sure there are better systems than mine but show conditions seriously hamstring what those megabuck systems can do.
If you don't hear much from me on this forum there is a reason why :)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243710)
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243709)
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I used to run a MSB Premier >Pass Xp22 >X250.8 and now just MSB Reference > Apollon PNC1200.
The MSB Reference has the preamp out module? How would you compare MSB direct to X250.8 vs. direct to Apollon?
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The MSB Reference has the preamp out module? How would you compare MSB direct to X250.8 vs. direct to Apollon?
Yes all MSB DACs have built in volume controls. The Reference and Select II have full analog preamps and I run the Network Renderer using Roon. Keeps everything simple and allows for more budget where I got return on investment vs. spreading on Preamp, streamer, cables, racks, etc.
I will answer your MSB Reference direct to X250.8 vs Apollon PNC1200 in the context of my room, my taste and with the X4. The Apollon has significantly more bass control, dynamics, larger soundstage and is smoother while retaining detail and resolution. I also ran a stereo VTV Purifi with Sparkos pro op amp from another room while I waited for the Apollon monos. It also bested the Pass X250.8 with the X4. The main difference between the Apollon PNC1200 and VTV Purifi is dynamics and resolution. I suspect that the mono version of the VTV Purifi with the Weiss Op Amp would get very close. VTV had me the Purifi amp in 4 days and it took much longer for the Apollon to be custom built and shipped.
Bottom line is that the new Class D amps with the X4 is a win.
I leave my gear on 24/7 link multiple systems in Roon and always have music playing so the added benefit is high efficiency, low heat, etc.
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Thanks. Intriguing.
I currently use a Pass Labs XA25 with my M3 Sapphires and have X4s on order.
VTV seems to offer good customer service. Based in Ohio, it looks like.
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Congrats on the X4 order. They are an amazing speaker. Take the time to set them up for success and you will be rewarded.
I am sure that you and others know I am not knocking Pass as they make great gear. I just prefer the control and dynamics of the new well constructed class D amps. After a certain level this all becomes preferences. Warren at VTV replied to most of my emails same day.
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Thanks. I am very happy with the XA25, and it drives the Sapphires beautifully in my medium-sized room.
A Class-D option with rollable op-amps is interesting, however.
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A Class-D option with rollable op-amps is interesting, however.
Exactly- Options are a wonderful thing :)
Yesterday I shot a demo video using a quality mic on 6k video. If that turns out good post processing I will try and store the file somewhere since YouTube is not an option. Hopefully the mic captures the soundstage and mind blowing dynamics.
When I read on forums that people are considering some of the larger Spatial Audio models and they are concerned about bass I develop an evil laugh. You haven't actually heard bass until you have these speakers.
There is a trend with today's box speakers to develop this warmish, woolly audiophile bass that is so "pleasing", not sure who thinks that this is pleasing. Maybe in 2022 dynamics and slam are offensive and this is the HiFi equivalent of being politically correct to where instruments can't even speak their mind. Here to say that bass doesn't sound like that. If anyone thinks that a kick drum or a run on a bass guitar is not a visceral event... Step out of your mom's basement and go hear live music.
Those non-offensive speakers might be good for background music but when I press play on my system people tend to shut up and become locked into the event because you are there... wherever there is for you.
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I’m curious how the Apollon stereo 1200 would sound with my X-3’s? Perhaps the sub amp would make it similar to what you’re getting with the monos?
By the way Bingenito, what music genres do you most appreciate and listen to?
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I’m curious how the Apollon stereo 1200 would sound with my X-3’s? Perhaps the sub amp would make it similar to what you’re getting with the monos?
By the way Bingenito, what music genres do you most appreciate and listen to?
Need is a strong word on audio gear :) but I might recommend the Purifi based amp which has more than enough headroom for the more sensitive X3. Same OpAmp.
I listen to a wide variety of music depending on mood and time of day.
- Jazz
- Latin
- Electronic
- Classic rock
- 90's-2000 hip hop back when the lyrics were funny
- Hard Rock or Metal or even covers of tracks done by other studio bands that are properly recorded... you know with like >5db of dynamic range
- Pretty much everything except country and classical. I tried to like classical but I lack the patience... My personality is like... Get to the point so the quiet passages and long build up just do not appeal to me. Someone feel free to recommend a few tracks to change my mind!
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Mahler symphony 5. Shostakovich cello concerto 1. Liszt Hungarian Rhapsodies. Brahms piano quintet. All are pretty vigorous.
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Thanks Tyson I really appreciate it. It is official I still have no interest in Classical :lol: Sounds great but the music itself does not appeal to me at all. If I went to a Hifi demo I would not get up and leave because the massive dynamic range is cool but I would never sit in a dark room by myself and play classical. Appreciate you attempting to show me the way.
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Thanks Tyson I really appreciate it. It is official I still have no interest in Classical :lol: Sounds great but the music itself does not appeal to me at all. If I went to a Hifi demo I would not get up and leave because the massive dynamic range is cool but I would never sit in a dark room by myself and play classical. Appreciate you attempting to show me the way.
Nothing wrong with knowing yourself :thumb:
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Bingenito, regarding the Carbon Special subs you sold, what specifically do you prefer about the sound of the X4s on their own?
I considered a pair of Carbon Specials with my X4s too at one point, although I'm currently leaning towards building a pair of GR Research triple H-frame subs. Neither are a high priority since, as you said, the bass on fully-broken-in X4s is spectacular.
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With the right amps and positioned correctly the X4s in no way need subs. They pound out the hardest hitting bass I have ever had in a hifi system.
The carbon specials added nothing once those 4 beyma 12” were broken in. My advise is avoid subs but if you most have them stick with open baffle subs.
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Bingenito, regarding the Carbon Special subs you sold, what specifically do you prefer about the sound of the X4s on their own?
I considered a pair of Carbon Specials with my X4s too at one point, although I'm currently leaning towards building a pair of GR Research triple H-frame subs. Neither are a high priority since, as you said, the bass on fully-broken-in X4s is spectacular.
I may add a GR Research Servo sub to my X-3'a but I'm first working on room treatments , speaker placement, etc. I did have dual servos with X-5's in my former home and it was a great pairing. With my very large listening space I may very well do this again. 2 duals was amazing. Add in dual triples and boy you're gonna be rocking the neighborhood '!
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Subs can be lots of fun but also very complex to get right. Time, phase and crossover to the mains is much easier said than done.
Without powerful dsp not sure it is even possible. The sub integration in my HT room is top notch. You have no idea that the subs are there until the source material calls for it and then the house feels like it is about to explode.
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I'm very interested what you learn about the pairing of the Pass XA25 & the X4's, newzooreview.
I've built some Pass-Inspires VFET amps which sound amazing, but am generally curious how they may pair up with the X4. Seems like folks are enjoying the X4's with amps that can output 300W+ :0
And, here I am cross-shopping Spatial with other, horn designs, thinking that 30W should be plenty.
The XA25/X4 impressions will be very interesting in this regard.
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Bingenito,
Thanks a so much for sharing all this info. The evolution you went thru with subs, room treatments, long break-in, and class D amps, is very useful info for me.
To All who know these speakers,
I am trying to decide if I should get X3, X4, or X5. The website currently does not offer X5. I assume they will have X5 again within a year. X3 I can get used. Which do you think is best?
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My personality is like... Get to the point so the quiet passages and long build up just do not appeal to me. Someone feel free to recommend a few tracks to change my mind!
Like the old joke, how many psychiatrists to change a light bulb. Answer: One, but the lightbulb has got to want to change.
My guess is you are a "get 'er done" kind of guy that does not relax as much as some. There is really no benefit to changing, but if you want to, the key may be to relax. Just a guess.
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You nailed it. That is me... No sign of change :)