[zybar]

I have been wondering with these same dilemmas about this years RMAF. IMO this subject is just as important, if not more, than the actual show coverage from ACer's.
Too many variables... and I have wondered if it is possible for a 'bad show situation' or one to many negative comments from a 'trusted', 'popular' or 'experienced' personality on the internet can do more overall harm than the entire show did good for a manufacturer.

Let's face it, I think it works in both directions.  It's simply the nature of the business and people.

George

[ted_b]

I agree with George.

As per the Daedalus rooms, although the Modwright gear was in the rooms where I likedthe speakers sound the least, to me it had NOTHING to do with the amps (I own them and know their sound, although not in those rooms) but had to do with speaker placement and room size/treatment.  One large room had the speakers a foot from the walls, firing east west and one had them 5 feet from the back wall in a small room, firing north south.  Big difference!  Lou and Emmanuel had their reasons, but the differences were clearly much more based on acoustics rather than equipment IMO.  But to report "Modwright Daedalus room beaten by 30 watt  OTL amp" isn't reporting anywhere near the full perspective.  This is one reason RMAF reports are all over the board...perspective.  Each of us walk into a room and focus on different things (if i am hot to trot on that cd player, I'll probably focus on it).

[avahifi]

Especially at trade shows, people listen with their eyes instead of with their ears.  They also listen with pre-conceived notions - - such as really big and really flashy looking and expensive is certainly better.  Fire hose speaker wires and interconnects must certainly be better, along with safe size power line conditioners and amplifiers that require a fork lift truck to move.

One amateur reviewer of RMAF called our equipment "mid-fi" even though it recently received rave reviews in TAS and was listed as one of the best values in the whole industry.  This simply tells us to quit working on better circuits and start working on better looking faceplates and to raise our prices a whole lot.

Some careful listeners reported that we had better sound in the small AVA/Salk room with our Ultravalve tube amp and Songtowers than they heard in the big Salk room with Soundscapes and megabuck electronics. Others of course raved about the great sound of the Soundscapes in the big room.

Actually Jim had a real problem with the big Soundscapes at the show.  They were brand new and untested and the woofer supplier had supplied a batch of new woofers that were way out of spec - - - low bass output.  The situation was salvaged by careful use of an equalizer built into the electronics in the big room, but speakers still were nowhere up to their performance potential.  However, the thundering herd were impressed by the room size and all the expensive stuff and never really listened carefully at all.  Lucky for Jim the electronics provider in the Soundscape room did have the built in equalization capability.  Our electronics would not have been able to help with the woofer design spec problem, we don't offer a built in equalizer.  We had the same issue with the HT3s in our much smaller room, the same out of spec woofer.  This prevented us from using them at all.  Fortunately both the HT2s and SongTowers performed just fine.

All of Jim's current speakers are designed with Audio by Van Alstine equipment.  Dennis Murphy uses an AVA Insight+ DAC, Preamp, and amplifier, and Jim has our best hybrid equipment.  I doubt if either of them are so stupid that they feel they are limited the performance potential of their products in the design stage by using "mid-fi' electronics.

I will plead guilty to designing audio equipment that is not as expensive looking as some people desired.  Maybe we can do something about that in the future.

Until then I just ask you to listen with your ears, not with your eyes.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[jtwrace]

I think everyone that listens should have their hearing checked.  You may be surprised as to what you can or can't hear. 

Don't forget that the older you are, the less high frequency you can probably hear.  My point being not only is it subjective but you also have the difference of ear quality.

[adydula]

Frank.....

KISS , Keep it simple stupid....looks are cool, but performance and value for my dollar is very important. Your stuff is wonderfully sounding, yes its not as pretty as some other equipment but plays well.

Your Ultravalve is really great performing and looks very nice as well.

If making the same electronics look better increases the cost, count me out.

I would love for you to make 'kits'!!!

Alex
 

[TONEPUB]

I agree with George.

As per the Daedalus rooms, although the Modwright gear was in the rooms where I likedthe speakers sound the least, to me it had NOTHING to do with the amps (I own them and know their sound, although not in those rooms) but had to do with speaker placement and room size/treatment.  One large room had the speakers a foot from the walls, firing east west and one had them 5 feet from the back wall in a small room, firing north south.  Big difference!  Lou and Emmanuel had their reasons, but the differences were clearly much more based on acoustics rather than equipment IMO.  But to report "Modwright Daedalus room beaten by 30 watt  OTL amp" isn't reporting anywhere near the full perspective.  This is one reason RMAF reports are all over the board...perspective.  Each of us walk into a room and focus on different things (if i am hot to trot on that cd player, I'll probably focus on it).

This is an excellent post.  Most of the rooms I liked best had modest setups and somewhat small speakers, because most of the rooms were pretty small...   

To me, it's always about room and system synergy. 

[John Casler]

    I have read a number of posts here on AC and have read a number of links to online magazine reviews about RMAF 2010. I also had a couple of audio friends that attended and spoke to them about different rooms.
    What I came across is that there are no 2 people that agree about what they heard in each room. Some liked room A and hated room B. Other people hated room A and liked room B. I also picked up on that if a person owns some piece of equipment from a room, they liked what they heard from that room.
    From what I understand there were 4 rooms that were using the same Daedalus speakers. I have read posts here on AC that a number of people liked the Daedalus room with the Modwright equipment. A couple of friends told me the only room with Daedalus speakers they liked was the one with a SET amp driving them. One friend felt that it was one of if not the best sound of the show. He did not like the room with the Modwright equipment or the other 2 rooms.
    Some people commented that the GR Research room had the best bass of the show. Others that I have heard from thought that it was over blown and boomy. A couple of guys here on AC felt that the treble was a bit on the bright side. A friend of mine that for the most part does not like solid state amps (except for a few) felt that the treble was pretty good and non fatiguing to him. Is it the recording they did not like or are they blaming the speakers?
    One reviewer commented that the Aperion Audio Verus Grand Tower Loudspeakers were a speaker that he would buy. At the price, if it is really that good it is a steal and the audio bargain of the century. He is about the only one that even mentioned that speaker. You usually do not even get a finish like that unless the speakers are way over $5,000.00 not to mention that they were only $1800.00. What did he hear in it that room that most other people did not? Was it the really nice finish for the money or was it the sound?
   I read some peoples "best of show" rooms and they were other peoples "worst of show" rooms. How can there be that much difference in peoples opinion? I can see "best of show" and it was pretty good but "best of show" and terrible?
   I have been to a number of audio shows and have been an exhibitor. I came across feeling that no hotel rooms at Audio shows really sound as good as your own room. What I also noticed was smaller speakers that do not do low bass as well as other speakers tended to sound better in those hotel rooms. The one time that I exhibited at RMAF I was in a room that had 3 speakers from this one manufacture. The only one that sounded even remotely balance was their smallest speaker. Unfortunately every one walking in wanted to hear the large statement speaker. The speaker over powered the room.
   The other thing that seems to be apparent is that some (online) magazines usually only talk about the ultra expensive rooms and seem to dismiss other rooms unless there is an innovative product they want to talk about. Some of the best sounding rooms IMO were not the ultra expensive rooms but the mid priced rooms. A good number of the ultra expensive rooms usually ended up sounding the worst IMO.
   I was not there so I cannot personally comment on what I heard. This posting is not to single any one person or manufacture out. I was just point out what I read and heard from people that were there. It is also to point out how many differing opinions there are even amongst audiophiles. Who do you believe? Anyone? No one?

Having set up and participated in many shows, I would suggest the following:

1) Each seat in any given room sounds dramatically different.
2) Seated and standing sounds very different with some speakers
3) The number of people in a room can make it sound different
4) BASS will vary wildly from the center to the boundaries and especially in the corners.  We all know this, but somehow expect it to change as we pile into a room and find a space to listen
5) Unless everyone judges based on the exact same recording perceptions will vary
6) Most vendors constantly make adjustments during the show which will change how some perceive a room.  Normally Sunday is the best sounding day.
7) Some people "hear" with their eyes, or through a personal bias or preference. (this is NOT being critical of that type)
8 ) Only a small % are actually making sonic judgements based on real versus recorded criteria, it is more often recorded versus recorded.
9) Many also judge from a perspective based on their personal room and system as well as their experience with High End gear.

[audioengr]

Here are some impediments to making informed decisions at RMAF or any other show for most showgoers:

1) not playing music you are familiar with
2) the system is either way better than what you have at home or the opposite
3) no acoustic treatments or poorly executed
4) dispersion of the speakers is preventing you from experiencing the REAL sound
5) other noise in the room is interfering
6) sound is too quiet or too loud to make any judgements

All of these can be overcome if you do some important things:

1) come prepared with a good quality track that you are familiar with, either on CDROM or memory stick or both
2) try to sit in the sweetspot
3) ask the one in control to raise or lower the volume - we will not be affended
4) dont assume that the speakers sound like this with all electronics or visa-versa.  It's a system thing that can be spoiled by the wrong cables, poor matching of amps and speakers or even room the wrong size for those speakers.  Just go into 99% of bricks and mortar stereo salons and you will discover that most salespeople cannot build a good sounding system to save their lives.  Same thing at shows.  If there is great sound in the room, it is probably because of the great front-end electronics, and good amp-speaker matching.  Dont attribute great sound or bad sound to just the speakers.  It's a system thing.  If something sounds good, examine the whole system.  If you buy those speakers and take them home to your electronics, you may have an entirely different result.  This is the most difficult thing for consumers: mixing and matching electronics to speakers.  Just remember that great clarity and dynamics is usually moslty due to the electronics.  Great bass response, imaging and good dispersion is the speakers/treatments.

We do a lot of tweaking of our system as the show progresses, including DSP EQ, moving the acoustic treatments, and even adjusting the speakers.  There is no way that 1/2 day of set-up can achieve a perfect room sound.  I cannot do this at home, so why should I be able to do it in a strange room with limited power outlets, wierd reflective surfaces etc.? 

By Sunday our sound is always significantly better than on Friday.  We had the big Salks and as AVA says above, the bass drivers were efficient, but bumpy and did not go low.  Jim replaced them the night before the show started with the original low-efficiency woofers and then we were off and running.  I believe he had hoped to make the speaker more efficient to make it usable with a wider variety of amps.  We had my modded JC-1's which put about 750 watts into each with very low output impedance, so this was no problem.  We also tweaked the back-covers on the midranges and did some EQ with Amarra.  All of this culminated in a very live sound.  I'm at home now using Amarra EQ to tweak my ribbons to sound as good as our room at RMAF.  For the first time ever, it was actually better than my home system.  I'll never get the bass slam we had there using my speakers.  Maybe Jim will cut me a deal......

Steve Nugent
Empirical Audio

[drphoto]

Hell, my opinion of my own system changes from day to day!

[Wind Chaser]

To be honest I think the most anyone can hope for or take from a trade show is a generalized impression.  Crap always sounds like crap - there's no remedy for that.  Unfortunately every great product under less than ideal conditions can sound like crap too, so much is unfairly dismissed due to the venue.

[Mrs. Ninja]

Plus if the review was made by a man versus a women. Women have much more sensitivity to the high end. Some speakers The Ninja likes make my head hurt because I can hear what he cannot. Add to the fact of getting older we all have, that sound like beauty is in the eye or in this case the ear of the beholder and I am surprised we ever agree at all.

Mrs. Ninja

[JohnR]

4) BASS will vary wildly from the center to the boundaries and especially in the corners.  We all know this, but somehow expect it to change as we pile into a room and find a space to listen

I wonder whether anyone tries the multi-sub method investigated by Welti, intended to minimize spatial variation. I realize time is short, but the rooms are the same year after year, right, so it wouldn't have to be done again the next time.

[Bill Baker]

I too have my take on evaluating equipment under show conditions which can be best summed up by a comment I received at the show.

 Two people took me out in the hallway to ask some questions about or Purity Silver Statement preamp that was in the room. The first person made the statement "it's hard to tell how good a component is in an unfamiliar setup".

 To my surprise, the other gentleman stepped in right away and said something along the lines of "yes, but if the whole system sounds really good, you know their are no weak links and you can hear the potential of any given piece in the chain". This made a lot of sense to me.

 We followed the following rules in our room:

 1) Let the listener pick the music.
 2) Hand the listener the remote so he/she can listen at a volume of their liking.
 3) Allow the more interested listeners to choose their own seat. We did not 'make' anyone sit in the sweet spot as many wanted to hear how things sounded from various seating positions.
 4) If people wanted to talk while someone was in the room listening, ask them to step out into the hallway as not to disturb the person trying to listen to music.
 5) Turn off the air conditioner and unplug the fridge.
 6) If there are too many people in the room when someone wanted to sit and listen, invite them back a bit later when the room was less crowded.
 7) Never make excuses for what someone is hearing. Let them make their own judgement and come to you for answers.
  Close the door. Too many rooms left the door open throughout the whole show and all listeners could hear was the chaos in the hallways.
 9) Turn the lights down. Let people relax a bit. There is a lot of chaos going on at these shows and nobody can enjoy anything if they are tense.

 Our room was professionaly treated prior to the show. I think it is important that people know this and what they are hearing is the potential of any given piece in the room. We all realize not everyone can generate the same results in their own room but at least they have something to shoot for and know what is possible:wink:

[Mrs. Ninja]

And you guys did a good gob at it.

Mrs. Ninja

I too have my take on evaluating equipment under show conditions which can be best summed up by a comment I received at the show.

 Two people took me out in the hallway to ask some questions about or Purity Silver Statement preamp that was in the room. The first person made the statement "it's hard to tell how good a component is in an unfamiliar setup".

 To my surprise, the other gentleman stepped in right away and said something along the lines of "yes, but if the whole system sounds really good, you know their are no weak links and you can hear the potential of any given piece in the chain". This made a lot of sense to me.

 We followed the following rules in our room:

 1) Let the listener pick the music.
 2) Hand the listener the remote so he/she can listen at a volume of their liking.
 3) Allow the more interested listeners to choose their own seat. We did not 'make' anyone sit in the sweet spot as many wanted to hear how things sounded from various seating positions.
 4) If people wanted to talk while someone was in the room listening, ask them to step out into the hallway as not to disturb the person trying to listen to music.
 5) Turn off the air conditioner and unplug the fridge.
 6) If there are too many people in the room when someone wanted to sit and listen, invite them back a bit later when the room was less crowded.
 7) Never make excuses for what someone is hearing. Let them make their own judgement and come to you for answers.
  Close the door. Too many rooms left the door open throughout the whole show and all listeners could hear was the chaos in the hallways.
 9) Turn the lights down. Let people relax a bit. There is a lot of chaos going on at these shows and nobody can enjoy anything if they are tense.

 Our room was professionaly treated prior to the show. I think it is important that people know this and what they are hearing is the potential of any given piece in the room. We all realize not everyone can generate the same results in their own room but at least they have something to shoot for and know what is possible:wink:

[Pez]

I do not subscribe to the school that claims "people listen with their eyes" While it is true sometimes, for me some of the most god awful sound I heard was coming from the big ticket rooms like the Legacy room or the Rockport/Win analog room (Win analog was probably my favorite room last year too, so there you go). And some of the greatest sound was coming from the smaller rooms like Fritz speakers and Aperion audio. Though I will say I wouldn't fault anyone who bought Fritz's speakers on sight alone.

[Tyson]

Especially at trade shows, people listen with their eyes instead of with their ears.  They also listen with pre-conceived notions - - such as really big and really flashy looking and expensive is certainly better.  Fire hose speaker wires and interconnects must certainly be better, along with safe size power line conditioners and amplifiers that require a fork lift truck to move.

One amateur reviewer of RMAF called our equipment "mid-fi" even though it recently received rave reviews in TAS and was listed as one of the best values in the whole industry.  This simply tells us to quit working on better circuits and start working on better looking faceplates and to raise our prices a whole lot.

Some careful listeners reported that we had better sound in the small AVA/Salk room with our Ultravalve tube amp and Songtowers than they heard in the big Salk room with Soundscapes and megabuck electronics. Others of course raved about the great sound of the Soundscapes in the big room.

Actually Jim had a real problem with the big Soundscapes at the show.  They were brand new and untested and the woofer supplier had supplied a batch of new woofers that were way out of spec - - - low bass output.  The situation was salvaged by careful use of an equalizer built into the electronics in the big room, but speakers still were nowhere up to their performance potential.  However, the thundering herd were impressed by the room size and all the expensive stuff and never really listened carefully at all.  Lucky for Jim the electronics provider in the Soundscape room did have the built in equalization capability.  Our electronics would not have been able to help with the woofer design spec problem, we don't offer a built in equalizer.  We had the same issue with the HT3s in our much smaller room, the same out of spec woofer.  This prevented us from using them at all.  Fortunately both the HT2s and SongTowers performed just fine.

All of Jim's current speakers are designed with Audio by Van Alstine equipment.  Dennis Murphy uses an AVA Insight+ DAC, Preamp, and amplifier, and Jim has our best hybrid equipment.  I doubt if either of them are so stupid that they feel they are limited the performance potential of their products in the design stage by using "mid-fi' electronics.

I will plead guilty to designing audio equipment that is not as expensive looking as some people desired.  Maybe we can do something about that in the future.

Until then I just ask you to listen with your ears, not with your eyes.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

That was me.  I'm not an amateur reviewer, I'm just a dude.  And I posted my opinion.  I'll follow it up and say that ANYTIME people start talking about what "great value" someone's equipment is, then that equipment is, by definition, mid-fi.  If it were "true" high end, then they would use terms like "best in class".

[TONEPUB]

Plus if the review was made by a man versus a women. Women have much more sensitivity to the high end. Some speakers The Ninja likes make my head hurt because I can hear what he cannot. Add to the fact of getting older we all have, that sound like beauty is in the eye or in this case the ear of the beholder and I am surprised we ever agree at all.

Mrs. Ninja

Absolutely not true.  I've talked to three board certified audiologists now and they've all told me that men and women's hearing measures identical.  Granted, some of us have exposed our ears to things that have changed our HF hearing, but the common thought that women have better HF acuity is an urban myth.

Talking to a couple of psychoacoustics guys, they have said that in the caveman days, women concentrated more on hearing the sounds of babies and men listened more carefully for approaching animals, but again, the actual hearing mechanism is identical.  There is nothing in the physiology that would make women hear HF better or worse than men.

Perhaps in today's modern cave, more men have gone to extremely loud rock concerts or used noisy power tools, but that's it....

[mjosef]

Mhnnn..I guess I will have to go next year to form my OWN OPinion. 

[Pez]

Yes do that, everyone do that. And no one complain about someone elses opinion for once. Whether you're a manufacturer or a hobbyist or even just curious you WILL have an opinion and it WILL piss off someone who would rather be an armchair audiophile than get down in the trenches and hear for themselves.

[Wind Chaser]

Trade shows are about exposure and marketing, beyond that I wouldn't take anything too seriously.