AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => VMPS Speakers => Topic started by: ARAM on 26 May 2006, 12:58 pm
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After a long time, at last I set up the RM/X..The one and only in Australia I think..Well, they are better than my old Studio 100..
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After a long time, at last I set up the RM/X..The one and only in Australia I think..Well, they are better than my old Studio 100..
Not exactly a ringing endorsement. :o What can we do to get you set up so that you will be yodeling enthusiastically? :wink:
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Hi Aram,
Yes, I can only assume there is (or will be) more to this story.
Let us know if you need any assistance or ideas about placement or set up guidance or tips.
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Something needs to be helped here. You should be bowled over in joy. Even saying Studio 100's and RM/x in the same sentence makes me gag. Please let us know if we can help.
If you have pics of your room and a description of what you're using in front of the speakers you'll be on the way of much better sound I think.
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Allright..The treble and midrange is very good but the bass is not that strong..I don't know why..The tuning and setup things are not easy for me ..I don't know how to tune the speaker..
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Also the bases are not on the speaker..well the speakers are so heavy..I could not put them on myself alone..I am thinking of putting granite under the speakers instead of their own bases..
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I have not head the RM/X but, the current version of the Studio 100 sounds excellent in my opinion.
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i thought big b was personally setting up all the rmx systems?
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glowing real world review so far...
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Also the bases are not on the speaker..well the speakers are so heavy..I could not put them on myself alone..I am thinking of putting granite under the speakers instead of their own bases..
Hi Aram,
If by "bases" you mean the slot for the Passive Radiator chamber, then that is probably the problem.
Also I received an e-mail from Scott Mayo, one of our dealers and owner of the RM/x in his system.
He has offered to give you "free" room consulting (his business is Room Design and Acoustics Consulting) since he is quite familiar with the RM/x and what it takes to get the bass.
In fact before he became a dealer, he auditioned the RM/x in NY at a former dealers demo room, and left complaining that there was absolutley "NO BASS".
Brian guaranteed him that the bass from the speaker could be phenomenal if set up well. He got this RM/x, set them up properly, and has incredible bass (no sub).
Check the "owner agent" listing in the stickies for "Obsession Audio" and send him an e-mail.
Also don't go overboard on tuning just yet. First we need to establish that you in fact have not held the PR captive. If the slot/base is not on the speaker, it will not allow the PR to funtion and this will not allow the bass system to produce "any" low bass, and "all" bass will be reduced.
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I own RM/X's as well. Feel free to PM me with any questions, or put them out here for all to respond. The RM/X's produce great bass, but without all their pieces (bases in this example) and proper speaker setup I cannot imagine ANY speaker sounding its' best.
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By base,I mean the wood bases that go under the speakers..they come with bolts or screws..I dont think I can put them on..Even if I did when I want to stand the speakers up how will they carry the weight??I mean the speakers have to be on one side of the base first..and I think that might break the bolts..well I am not sure..
The bass is not punchy..I am not sure how low it goes but it just does not punch hard..My studio 100 used to shake the windows on some tracks..well RM/X does not do it..
Well this speaker has to sound better I suppose..After hearing so much praises about it I bought them but if they will only sound a bit better than the Studio 100..hmm something must be wrong..
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ARAM: Something must be wrong to say the least. The WCF 12's in your speakers will put out too much bass if you set them up wrong. My brother has the same drivers in his speakers but he only has one 12" per side. They're not wanting for bass even for HT much less music. Those 12" drivers are excellent and very powerful.
You absolutely must put the bases on. That's the biggest part of your problem. You'll no doubt need a friend to come over to help you stand them back up. After that then you can work on getting proper room position etc.
All you need is a screwdriver. The screws should have come with your speakers. If not ask whoever you bought them from where they put them.
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Hello everybody again
Instead of their own bases if I use granite will that be ok??
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Hi Aram,
I think what you are talking about is the "base plate" and I don't see any reason you couldn't use granite instead of the MDF plate, except for making convergence adjustments might be more (or less) difficult.
Also we VMPS'ers sometimes "assume" that everyone knows all the details of how to set up their speakers. Generally a dealer, or the person you purchase them from, fills you in.
If you didn't get instructions from anyone, or from visiting this circle, look here
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18067 for set up ideas and instruction.
The RM/x is a special speaker, and has the additional and "real" Free Swinging Tweeter to allow for vertical firing angle toward your listening height.
Also you mentioned a "lack of" or limited bass response. Do know that the RM/x "LOVES" power and the woofer system particualrly needs high amperage, high power amplification to cause the cones to do their magic.
What amp are you using? Are you biamping?
Not to worry, soon you'll be exploring the VMPS Magic, but to be sure, the RM/x is not a "plug and play" speaker. :mrgreen:
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hello
Ok..I am really thinking of putting a nice granite base under the speakers instead of the wood ones..they are not cheap but it is worth..the speakers will look much better with granite base..
well it looks like RM/X is not a plug and play speaker...I mean..the bass is not that punchy at the moment..I am not into the bass going really low but I want a punchy bass..
Amplification wise, I am using a yamaha MX-1 which gives out 240 watts at 8 ohms..the technical manual is a bit different for MX_1 but i am sure it is giving out much more than 200 watts at 8 ohms..At the moment that is all I got..I would like to have an amp with 350 watts at 8 ohms but at the moment I cant afford anything..
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Aram,
Although you sent me a PM I'd like to respond publicly. I sold my RM/X's this past weekend. They were put up for sale not because they are poor speakers, or even becuase I don;t like them!! They were put up because I can't take full advantage of the slam and dynamics they offer, due to the poor placement options I have in my HT room (video screen viewing angles, etc.). I realized there were a few folks out there that were looking, and thought timing was good. The RM/X's are very good speakers (of course, you need all the parts..... :D ). Granite bases would work fine, I believe, but they aren't exactly voiced that way, so John's comments about adjustments are likely accurate. Net/net, the PR needs to fire down on the hard surface and not be buried in carpeting.
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hello
Ok..I am really thinking of putting a nice granite base under the speakers instead of the wood ones..they are not cheap but it is worth..the speakers will look much better with granite base..
well it looks like RM/X is not a plug and play speaker...I mean..the bass is not that punchy at the moment..I am not into the bass going really low but I want a punchy bass..
Amplification wise, I am using a yamaha MX-1 which giv ...
Hi Aram,
Yes, in looking over the "posted specs" of the Yammie
http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/products/hf/mx1.html it appears to not be a "high current" amp since it goes from 200wpc @ 8 ohms to 260wpc @ 4 ohms.
This might indicate a smaller power supply.
As budget allows, keep your eye open for a nice amp that either could run the whole speaker or the bass system only. (biamp)
Also, if you have the ability, maybe you could send us a picture of the base as you have it now.
Also, as an after thought; I don't know how the speakers were shipped, but you sould get a flashlight and check the FST ribbon. It should have had tape put over the outside to keep the ribbon from stretching.
If this was done, make sure and remove the tape (or else your highs won't sparkle), and if it was not done, just take a flashlight and look to see if the ribbon is not "stretched" or "torn".
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Hi Aram,
You should check out the aksa forum and as you live in melbourne perhaps a die hard could bring their amp along for you to listen to. It is a good quality amp with spades of dynamics, bass and is a really musical.
It will at least give you an idea what direction you need to go in.
Regards
Rod
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I can assure you your Yammie amp won't cut it except at low levels. You need an amp with a good power supply. An amp that is rated at only 20% more power into 4 ohms definitely has a weak power supply and those speakers need a better power amp.
For little money a used Rotel that delivers 200wpc into 8 ohms and 350 into 4 ohms is a much better bet and is inexpensive. Used ones run 5-700 depending on the model.
Your speakers have the ability to have excellent bass. They are not turnkey ready though. They take some adjustment to get them to sound best in your acoustical environment. That's why those adjustments are there.
Please read the instructions John posted above thoroughly and take your time. If you're not patient you'll end up possibly making things worse. If you take your time you'll be able to match your speakers to your room/gear better than most any other speaker.
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The speakers were shipped very well..When I got them they were in good condition..They had sticky tape over the tweeters..I don't know if you know but I bought them from Eric Kovalsky..I think these were the first commercially sold pairs..
About bases..I have spoken to a masonry place here ,,They specialize in marble and granite..So when I get them I will have a pic of them..
I heard about the Aksa amplifiers but I am not sure if they are strong enough for the RM/X..
Well, in the future I would like to have Pass Aleph 350..they are down to 3500 USA$ in the market now.(used )..I think they will give enough juice to the speakers??(350 watts at 8 ohm)..they just look so nice to me all the time..I have not heard them though..what do you guys think??
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I had the Pass X-250 on my RM40's which synergized well with the Rm40's. The pass has lots of current, some warmth in the midrange, and solid bass. Treble energy and imaging weren't the best nor was it as crystal clear as some of the digital amps, but it's a nice amp and should drive your RM/x's.
If you have bass problems, make sure it's not just as your listening seat and play with the woofers firing out or reverse the speakers and have them fire in.
My RM/x's currently have the woofers firing towards each other (in) as that seemed to load my room better.
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You purchased these from Mr. "I hate VMPS". That was quite a while ago. You could use the Aksa amps, but you'd probably have to use one 2-channel Aksa on one speaker and another 2-channel Aksa on another speaker (the so-called "vertical biamping"; "horizontal biamping" would be one channel from one 2-channel amp on the bass of one speaker and another channel on the bass of another speaker; ditto for the second 2-channel amp, applied to the mids/highs).
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You purchased these from Mr. "I hate VMPS". That was quite a while ago. You could use the Aksa amps, but you'd probably have to use one 2-channel Aksa on one speaker and another 2-channel Aksa on another speaker (the so-called "vertical biamping"; "horizontal biamping" would be one channel from one 2-channel amp on the bass of one speaker and another channel on the bass of another speaker; ditto for the second 2-channel amp, applied to the mids/highs).
Bob,
I don't think it is fair to say Eric is "Mr. I Hate VMPS". Eric (as well as many others) was very vocal about certain issues (which I am not looking to dig up). Truth is, Eric has said many positive things about VMPS (even after he sold his speakers) speakers as well.
I know Eric doesn't need me to defend his character, but as his friend, I felt that I had to say something.
George
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You purchased these from Mr. "I hate VMPS". That was quite a while ago. You could use the Aksa amps, but you'd probably have to use one 2-channel Aksa on one speaker and another 2-channel Aksa on another speaker (the so-called "vertical biamping"; "horizontal biamping" would be one channel from one 2-channel amp on the bass of one speaker and another channel on the bass of another speaker; ditto for the second 2-channel amp, applied to the mids/highs).
I think it's ironic that VMPS owners excoriate Erik now. First off, he bought one of the most expensive VMPS speakers, so they obviously made $$ off of him. Second, when he had VMPS speakers (the RM40 and RM/X), he was vocal in his support and I'm sure was instrumental in many of the first wave of VMPS owners purchases, given that most of them get their info off of this site and Erik can pretty much afford whatever the hell he wants. Thus, the fact that HE bought VMPS meant something, since he can clearly afford Wilsons or any other expensive speaker he wants. You can't buy advertising better than that IMO. If he is criticizing VMPS now, I guess it nettles many of you, but he also owned the brand, so he has more credence than if I started ripping on VMPS. Just my opinion as an observer who is dispassionate about either side of the argument.
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You purchased these from Mr. "I hate VMPS". That was quite a while ago. You could use the Aksa amps, but you'd probably have to use one 2-channel Aksa on one speaker and another 2-channel Aksa on another speaker (the so-called "vertical biamping"; "horizontal biamping" would be one channel from one 2-channel amp on the bass of one speaker and another channel on the bass of another speaker; ditto for the second 2-channel amp, applied to the mids/highs).
Starting this is not going to help the man find an amplifier.
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Hi Aram,
You should check out the aksa forum and as you live in melbourne perhaps a die hard could bring their amp along for you to listen to. It is a good quality amp with spades of dynamics, bass and is a really musical.
It will at least give you an idea what direction you need to go in.
Regards
Rod
Hey Rod,
Too bad you don't live closer, you could run the Son of Ampzilla over and try a Horizontal Biamp with ARAM's current amp.
I know the AMPzilla sounds good on the RM/x, but the Son doesn't have all the groceries for top and bottom. :wink:
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Wow.
I actually agree with Zybar on this one regarding Kovalsky. Stranger things have happened.
I thought Erik was super-knowledgeable and an overall positive proponent of VMPS. I still re-read his posts.
I don't get the putty thing either, and the deep bass just ain't in my pair of RM40's. And how about a nice warm tonal balance? Wait, it's my room or electronics. And the harshness is high performance! Sorry about my inadequacies there. :roll:
I'm just not the kind of person who only says nice things about products I buy. Life's too short for that BS!
Geez, I'll be keeping the RM40's for awhile even with their above outlined inadequacies. No Kool-Aid for me, though.
Gotta love that transient snap.
Skynyrd
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Well I have been watching and reading Audiocircle and before here harmonic audio or smt (it was another website before this) for a long time..So I know about Eric and his thoughts..That is how I decided to buy the RM/X..by then I was living in UK and when I bought them I actually asked him to keep the speakers for almost 4 months more so that he can ship them to Australia later..which he did..I think everybody should have the right to criticize any product they have or they don;t have..Eric just had lots of money::)) to afford another speaker..if he is happy that is fine..the only thing is I cant get hold of him at all lately::((...
I also remember Eric and Azryan comparing their speakers..Alpha LS and RM40...anyway...
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Skynard: If you're not getting good bass with your RM 40's then something else is wrong.
You should measure your room. Speaker position and listener position is very important, more important than the putty by far.
If after you measure your room and you still can't get the sound you want with listener/room position you should try a Behringer DEQ 2496. That should easily do the trick.
Even in my fully treated room with four large bass traps the Behringer unit helped immensely. I should add that if you don't have bass traps then that could be part of the problem. Everybody's room is different and every speaker will react differently in every room. There are of course the dimensions of the room that all speakers will have similar bass issues in.
I love quality and powerful bass. In my system I require nothing less than outstanding bass.I have it from the first octave on up. I do use a sub upto 45hz and run my RM 40's full range. Even with all the treatment and bass traps though the Behringer unit helped the sound quality alot. I would not go without one again. It doesn't matter which speakers you use or what else is in your system. With the typical large amplitude variations of the room DSP is now a must have for my system.
In case you're not aware the "average" listening room has peaks and dips of plus or minus 15db! I've read that Ethan Winer who owns Realtraps and is very knowledgeable about acoustics has measured 30db variations in customers rooms.
Now say you have a note of music and the fundamental frequency is 400hz. Now this 400hz tone is 5db up, the first harmonic of 800 is 7db down, next harmonic 4db down and the next harmonic is 5 db up. How close do you think this note will sound compared to what it should sound like?
With huge amplitude variations that are room effects one cannot possibly be getting the most out of their system. The only component that varies much from a flat frequency response is your speakers, unless you have a turntable on which the cartridge is also a transducer. The room is the big offender by a large margin.
By not addressing these amplitude variations no matter what your system it will not sound nearly as good as it can. I could put the rear channel speakers from my home theater (Polk Rti 25's) in my system and make them sound great. Far better I bet than alot of peoples 1,000 speakers. A system costing 2,000 can easily sound better than one costing 8,000 if the less expensive system has good acoustics and the 8,000 system is playing in the "average" room.
After over 30 years in this hobby I've learned that most people spend way too much time and money on the wrong things. Easily the highest priorities should be room and speakers. Amps, preamps, dacs all have an effect but it is very small and these electronics cannot come close to making up for the fundamental amplitude issues.
The Behringer DEQ 2496 with the ECM 8000 microphone is only 300 bucks. If one can afford it the Tact would probably be my choice but they're expensive even used. For the money what you get is a bargain and a half.
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Skynard: If you're not getting good bass with your RM 40's then something else is wrong.
I do use a sub upto 45hz and run my RM 40's full range....
Most all who have owned the RM40's and tried subs like to run the 40's with subs, so maybe if he's not getting good bass it IS the 40's.
I do agree with you though in that any room treatments are generally worth the time and money of doing them.
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Hi,
What is the efficiency of the vmps rmx speakers?
Aram,
I'm sure if you contacted hugh dean at aspen amplifiers (he lives in melbourne) he would give you a demonstration. My aksa 100 has so much drive it wasn't funny.
Regards
Rod
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On the website it says... 4 Ohm (3.6min.) 93dB/1W/1m..so 4 ohm is low..I think that makes it a bit power hungry???
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Also to Brian or knowledgeable dealers,,, How much does RM/X weigh??168 kg or less?? or the first RM/X's weighed around 150 kg??I am not sure but I would like to know.. (it got nothing to do with sound but I am just curious..)
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Also to Brian or knowledgeable dealers,,, How much does RM/X weigh??168 kg or less?? or the first RM/X's weighed around 150 kg??I am not sure but I would like to know.. (it got nothing to do with sound but I am just curious..)
Hi Aram,
I seriously doubt that Brian put the speaker on a scale fully dressed, but I think it was estimated at 350# based on the cabinet weight and parts weight.
Your shipping docs, might have a number for the "shipping" weight.
Brian is still on vacation, (till the 20th) so he won't be able to answer until then.
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John ,actually they had the shipping weight on the paper .They must have weighed them somehow(of course they would!!..lol) and the paper showed them as 148 kg each..so I am not sure..that is why I am asking..Only Brian will know the exact weight..So I am thinking maybe later versions were heavier..Brian will know...
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"Mr. I Hate VMPS" just saw this thread :whip: Not been around here much lately, been busy enjoying my family and my system, and working some. And getting a kick out of my new car on the streets of Scottsdale and the track.
Aram, there is a pretty easy way to get the bases on. Drop the speaker onto its side, using some foam blocks or rolled up area rugs to keep it off the ground. Match up the slots in the bases to the bottom of the speaker cabinet and push them together HARD... they don't fit great but will lock in place with some monkey grease or a beating with a rubber mallet. Once it is firmly attached screw the bolts in. You can then left the speaker up at the top end and stand it into position. If you don't work out a lot get someone else to help.
When I sold and shipped the RM40s to tdangelo and the RMX to ARAM, two different freight companies recorded gross (packaged) weight to be well below what the net weight of the speaker was supposed to be, based on the specifications from the factory. I have no comment on whose scales are probably inaccurate.
I'm not going to sing the praises of VMPS or flame them. I enjoyed a lot of audio with both pairs of their speakers I owned. As everyone knows I had some performance issues with them in my room, and many hours spent moving the speakers and the listening position trying to improve things did not really help. Also I received what I considered to be unsatisfactory explanations when asking about specific aspects of the design and in-room measurements that I made with amateur equipment. Maybe flying Brian out here for a few hundred dollars to tinker with the putty and make fractional dB adjustments to the pots would have bought me sonic nirvana ? But being a skeptic and also a perfectionist, and not believing the speakers could be adjusted to compensate for what I felt to be shortcomings, the decision was made to sell them. I pursued a very different route that was very costly but the results have been excellent and I stand by my decision.
I'll be back.
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Hi Ekovalsky
I actually put the bases on today..