Nitrogen in car tires?

ctviggen · « **on:** 2 Sep 2007, 10:57 am »

I can't quite decide whether the claims here are bunk or real:

Get Nitrogen

Nonetheless, I paid $8/tire to have nitrogen put in the wife's car. If the nitrogen really does leak out at a slower rate and not react so much to temperature changes (though with PV=nRT, it's gotta react somewhat) as much, it's worthwhile.

JLM · « **Reply #1 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 11:10 am »

Belle Tire (out of Detroit) has been pushing nitrogen as a way to avoid rusting of alloy wheels where the rims seal to the tire/stem. But I hadn't heard of other advantages. Hum.....

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #2 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 12:27 pm »

I work in the trucking industry, and nitrogen is becoming more widespread, as tires are one of the biggest non fuel vehicle expenses.

I have seen longer tire wear (measured) and fewer blow outs. Additionally, I have seen slightly better fuel mileage. (Less than 1 mpg, but still measurable.)

I run nitrogen in the tires on both my car and motorcycle, and do believe I can feel a slightly harsher ride. (Subjective)

It appears to me (again subjective) that when/if a tire blows, there seems be be an increase in damage to the surrounding assemblies.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #3 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 12:38 pm »

With all due respect to those of you that use it, this has got to be one of the silliest things I've see done to a passenger car. Thanks for the link Bob, but I can't find it in my heart to read why I'll be safer, greener etc... using Nitrogen.
If this is something you seriously interested in though, I think you getting ganked on the price. $32 to fill your tires!

Jesus man. Check your local supplier's of welding gasses. They'll probably hook you up with a tank of whatever you want to fill your tires with MUCH cheaper than $8/tire. OR, get a small portable tank (the kind you'd typically fill with air) and have them fill it with Nitrogen for you. That way you could put it in your garage for those occasional 'top-offs'.

Don't forget about your spare tire.

And your bicycle

And your wheelbarrow

And your lawnmower

And your ATV

And your trailer

And your two wheeled cart (Unless you have one of Johns Magna carts

)

Bob - Car guy

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 12:43 pm »

Just for grins, I walked out to the garage to count the pneumatic tires I own.
I count 27.
That's $216 to fill them with Nitrogen.

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 12:48 pm »

We didn't believe it either. The nitrogen machine manufacturer let us borrow it for 6 months before making a decision. After 6 months we had to buy it or return it (at no charge.) We bought it.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #6 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 01:14 pm »

Understood Nels.
I wholeheartedly agree that for commercial, industrial, and racing applications that something like this is advantageous. Trucking industries can benefit from the "micro savings" due to the shear amount of numbers they deal with. Dozens of trucks and thousands of tires, Milions of miles, sure. Absolutely. One MPG for "how many trucks" added up over "how many miles".....After a year these "micro savings" end up being enough to pay one guys salary for a year. That's not micro anymore.
But for Soccer Mom's minivan. No.

Regarding the rust/corrosion of the rims at the bead area of the tire, the reason that wheels rust/corrode is due to the lubricant that was used when the tire was installed on the wheel. If the lubricant was water based, it'll rust/corrode. If the lubricant is animal fat based it won't. The animal fat based lubricant is more expensive and most shops that install tires are NOT going to spend extra money on something they feel is a non-issue.
(Don't tell the PETA members their tires may have been install with the remains of a dead animal.)

Bob

vettracer · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 02:24 pm »

Air is already 78% nitrogen, so going to 100% nitrogen is not really going to make a difference as far as how the tire looses pressure over time.

The improvement with nitrogen is moisture in the tire. Air systems at shops compress the humidity in the air into the air system. There is a lot of water sprayed into a tire when you fill it with a standard compressed air system. Just hold you hand in front of a gas station air hose and see.

The moisture in the tire causes significantly greater pressure changes in the tire with tempreature as the volume expansion is higher than air. Nitrogen in a bottle is dry so you don't introduce moisture into the tire like you do with shop air. Dry air performs the same as pure nitrogen in tires.

On the racetrack with my Corvette, it is normal to see 10psi pressure differences from cold to hot with shop air vs about 2-3 psi difference cold to hot with dry air. This effect of more consistent tire pressure is what contributes to better more consistent tire wear over the long haul.

Just remember that the first time you adjust your air pressure at a gas station, you eliminate all the improvement that you paid for with the nitrogen fill.

Lawrence

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #8 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 03:03 pm »

Great post - so informative - and so outta' the blue for me.

Love this place - even if it's less and less about audio each day

John

TONEPUB · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 03:05 pm »

Last time I got tires for the SUV at Costco, they mentioned that's what they
do now, but as someone here pointed out, the first time you add air at the
gas station or from your garage compressor, the advantage starts to go out
the window.

But they do give you cool little green valve stem covers!!

Can't say I take the on ramps hard enough in my Hyundai Tucson
to tell if the ride is diff, though.

Less about audio is good sometimes, we need to get away from
this stuff now and then! (Makes you appreciate it more when
you go back to it!)

Jampot · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 04:16 pm »

Costco are promoting the nitrogen fill here in the UK too. I had the impression it was free with new tyres (had to get the spelling in there

).

It isn't genereally available for topping up as far as I know, but like Nels I work in haulage and it has been common for years there.

I wonder if there are benefits in using it for those fancy 'air bearing' tone arms

Jim

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #11 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 04:21 pm »

Helium could be great too.
It's lighter than air, therefore makes your car weight less, hence better fuel economy.

bprice2 · « **Reply #12 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 04:36 pm »

Quote from: Bob in St. Louis on 2 Sep 2007, 04:21 pm

Helium could be great too.
It's lighter than air, therefore makes your car weight less, hence better fuel economy.

And, if I remember what I learned in Chemistry courses, it is inert

...it doesn't react with anything

...no corrosion.

vettracer · « **Reply #13 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 05:27 pm »

Quote from: Bob in St. Louis on 2 Sep 2007, 04:21 pm

Helium could be great too.
It's lighter than air, therefore makes your car weight less, hence better fuel economy.

Why not hydrogen, it's lighter so it should work even better. You might want to make sure you have ABS though, long skids could have an exciting finale.

Lawrence

Haoleb · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 06:05 pm »

Like others have said Costco fills tires with Nitrogen, and doesnt charge extra for it. $8 a tire is outrageous. Costco will also let you come in any time and they will refill the tires with nitrogen in the event you have had to add pressure with regular air. They also have free lifetime balancing and rotation

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #15 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 06:09 pm »

Quote from: vettracer on 2 Sep 2007, 05:27 pm

Why not hydrogen, ........make sure you have ABS though, long skids could have an exciting finale.

That'd be one HELLUVA big BOOM.

I'll look for it on U-Tube.

Welcome to the forum Lawrence.

Looks like you'll get along just fine.

You know, being the the auto industry I've seen sooo many companies and products offer to flush various systems of a car it's not funny anymore. The "old joke" where I work is that we should offer a service that flushes and exchanges the air in your tires from "summer air" to "winter air" and visa versa.
I suppose our 'joke' has come true and isn't a joke anymore.

Bob

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #16 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 06:29 pm »

Hydrogen - wasn't that the gas they filled the fated Hindenburg up with? I seem to remember the wartime German government not being able to source inert, and non-flammable helium and filled that dirigible up with hydrogen in it's place...with smashing results

Doesn't seem a very good idea to compress that into your tires holding up 4000 or so lbs and human beings

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #17 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 06:35 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 2 Sep 2007, 06:29 pm

Hydrogen - wasn't that the gas they filled the fated Hindenburg up with?

I can almost hear the words of the guy who made that decision, "Oops, my bad."

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #18 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 08:04 pm »

Bob - more like 'Mein Got' - followed by the sounds of a rifle blast

JLM · « **Reply #19 on:** 2 Sep 2007, 10:31 pm »

Maybe we should use Helium (non-explosive, lighter than air). This would reduce overall weight for better performance (acceleration, economy, braking) and unsprung weight for better handling.

For all the fluff the marketers put into reducing a few pounds here and there, this could be relatively legitimate.