AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: 2bigears on 7 Jun 2008, 01:44 am
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:D seems everyone buys VPI stuff,can anyone speak on SOTA tt's or speak on a good buy for 3 or 4 k used buy.there is a SOTA tt with a SME 5 arm for sale on the Gon,would this be a good combo ???? :D thks to you tt guru's..... :D
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SOTA is & always has been a good Table. They just don't promote themselves as well.
Another very good under the radar table would be Well Tempered. Basis is also a very
good table.
That Agon SOTA/SME is a good deal.
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:D thks,what exactly is the pump for ?? i don't get that part.holds down the disc ?? :scratch: :D
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They are hard to find used since they haven't been around a long time, but I'd like to try an Origin Live arm/table. They seem to get great press and the descriptions of the sonic characteristics have me intrigued. I'll keep dreaming...
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This is a good buy too, I know the guy and he takes care of his rig better than anything else (including his wife! :lol: :lol:)
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1217942089
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They are hard to find used since they haven't been around a long time, but I'd like to try an Origin Live arm/table. They seem to get great press and the descriptions of the sonic characteristics have me intrigued. I'll keep dreaming...
Ditto with Henry (for the umpteenth time on various topics :) ).
I already own an Origin Live arm (Illustrious Mk. III) and just keep reading test after test (be it here or in UK/Europe) about the great sound of their decks.
The top-of-the-line Sovereign is way to pricey for me to consider....but for 60% of that a Resolution Mk. II can be had (it's cheaper to buy from Origin Live directly than US dealers). $3800 new (sans arm)....not chump change....but the accolades are high and mighty on this table (most of them are actually for the previous Mk. I version....not the improved II).
http://www.turntable-kits.com/resolution-turntable.htm
I know you can get a pretty tricked out VPI Aries (or SuperScout Master even) for that kinda' money, too, or a nice SOTA (non-vacuum I think, which is probably a dang shame NOT to buy one with a SOTA).
DAMN - do I hate manual play, tho. Semi-auto is just so nice to have (my JVC deck and DUAL 1229 changer decks)
John
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:D thks,what exactly is the pump for ?? i don't get that part.holds down the disc ?? :scratch: :D
Pump is for the vacuum hold down for the disk. That's a really nice table/arm combo.
Bryan
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go back to your old thread & read my suggestions there. (and the suggestions of others!) :green: :lol:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=53900.0
doug s.
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:D thks all.i know we are beating a dead dog here,but all these guys trying to sell their tt say a mid end tt,say 3 or 4 or 5k used with a good arm and cart ,the sound is 'night and day' better than the great little Technics 1210.the older thread i think John mentioned 5 to 10 % better sound.i stand :scratch: as always up here in the bush. :D
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You got the speed issue (under ALL conditions) licked already with the Technics SL-1210....that's a big part of getting vinyl right.
It's not until you get into much higher brackets of belt drive decks, those with goodly weighted platters (for inertia) and tightly regulated outboard speed control, do you begin to overtake the inherent speed stability of quartz locked, DC, direct drive models with belt drive.
Belt drivers are inherently better isolated, and have lower noise floors (at least those with expensive sophisticated bearings)....when you start climbing the price charts you eventually eclipse the humble little Technics.
Of course the Technics can be bettered by a reasonable amount of KAB upgrades making the amount needed higher still with belt drives after those upgrades. But, you'll never attain the lowest noise floors of the best belt drivers out there.
I truly think my so-so experience with an older Technics SL-1200 is atypical and is because it lead an abused life and the motor is loose in its 'harness' and is imparting a lot excess energy back into the deck...which is leeching back into the sonic chain. I think I'm gonna' have KAB fix mine up right pretty soon :wink:
Unless you really are dedicated to spending 5x+ the cost of the Technics (new), your not apt to dramatically better it's performance. But, somewhere along the line you can and will spend more money and get more deck.
One question you gotta' ask yourself is your system capable of handling a better deck and do you care to spend $2K+ more on a deck...or some other luxury in your life (or, for goodness sakes, save the money 8) ). How far do you carry a neurosis for better analog sound...to the detriment of other things in your life.
Unfortunately, for many of us assembled here at AC (myself included alot), our sickness has little to do good sense (cents?) and reason :roll:
John
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:D thk you John.the only reason i keep swingin' this dead cat is the 'night-and-day' sonics thing these guys tell me after they went to big dollar rigs.you say 5 to 10% which is nothing far as i am concerned.my VAC pre has a pretty good phono section,this is part of the reason i am at question....it will do MM or MC....dunce as always-over and out. :D
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Make sure your deck is on a great shelf or ultra-thick maple or other platform underneath...with compliant pads or legs of some sort to soak up what energy does sneak thru...at leat part of the great sound they are getting are available to improve any deck, no matter the humble beginnings.
Yes, spending $5K will get you a better deck than what you have...it will have a more refined sound, it will have a lower noise floor, it will near-equal in speed regulation (and likely good enough) assuming it an outboard power supply...but your still limited by the software (the record and analog recording process itself).
It cannot be a night and day difference as all phono playback and recording is held back by the same set of constraints. It's a flawed medium...it just happens to honor music more realistically than CD/Redbook when you tackle most of it's conquerable issues.
I'm not trying to talk you into keeping what you have or to spend biggie money on a boffo great uber-table.....it's your money and you can choose to do with it that you want....just know there ain't but a 10% difference between what you have and the best.
But, that last 10% is what we hunger for as audiophools...we spend it while most others sit idly and laugh at us :icon_lol:
Oh well - those poor non-audiophool schlubs don't know diddly :wink:
John
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:D well ok then,10% for 4 for or 5k is not money well wasted.gotta say though,those Origin Live tables look good. :D thks Pat :D
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For less than $3k I would look into the new Clearaudio Performance (w CMB bearing) + Satisfy Arm combo. Killer review in the March 2008 TAS.....compared it to several more expensive big name decks.
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4-5000 will buy you a great turntable, especially if you are buying used.
And if you are stepping up from a Technics, you will get way more
than 5-10% improvement, depending on the rest of your system.
The Sota/SME combination is quite good. I am reviewing the NOVA
right now and have used the SME IV.Vi with excellent results as well
as the Rega RB1000 arm. I just bought a used Sapphire for $350!
(its a nova without the vacuum hold down)
Another combination to think about if you are going down the SME
path is the 309. A lot of guys sell them on their way to an IV.Vi
or a V, and you can pick em up pretty cheap, usually about a thousand
bucks.
If you are pretty good with tiny parts, you can put the damping trough
from the higher priced models on a 309 and on all but the most resolving
systems, it gets in the neighborhood for a lot less money and you
have the option of removable headshells!
Another table that can be a killer deal is a used Oracle that doesn't
work due to motor issues (they all had em) Origin Live makes a great
motor upgrade kit for these and we will be reporting on this soon.
You can usually buy a dead Oracle for under 500 bucks, get the OL kit
for about 600, that SME 309 and all the goodies for about 1400 and
have a pretty state of the art rig for a reasonable amount of cash.
If you don't like to fuss, I've been seeing used Rega P9's for about
3000 and this too is a fantastic table.
good luck on the hunt!
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2big
you mention the VAC pre.....what is the rest of your system?
Good luck with your TT search.
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:D thks guys,that was the catch,5 large for 10 points,that's just crazy.sounds like cdp talk.system is:DNA 500,VAC Ren Sig pre,feeding SP Tech Revs. [transport with PS Audio L4] and of course the tt Technics 1210 with Benz.just getting back to vinyl and even though there is ZERO CONVEINENCE,it's too cool. :o just don't want to buy a piece of regret only to upgrade soon. :D
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:D Teres,nice lookin' stuff,none on the Gon Marbles, sooo i guess you gotta sell me yours :lol: that looks like big $$ stuff,not sure my marrage would stand that test...Wife-TT..Wife-TT.. hummm
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Don't think I'll be getting a "next" turntable either. (got four already...)
But if I did, it would be an SME 20/12.
Probably not though.
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Hey 2bigears - have you ever mentioned what this new table is sitting on?
I know I can have feedback problems even though the equipment sits on a heavy white oak buffet in the next room, its the old wood floors through out the house that vibrate nicely with heavy loud bass. A table without a suspension (VPI) would howl like a banshee unless I made ugly isolation platforms or spent an additional $300 or more hoping something like a Cloud9 would work.
The table I use now is perfectly isolated with a suspended arm/platter unit. If I ever needed to upgrade then a SOTA would be on my short list.
Wayne
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:D got all gear on Adona rack.nice stuff,and ok prices.there is a tt out there somewhere ???? :duh: :D
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:D thks guys,that was the catch,5 large for 10 points,that's just crazy.sounds like cdp talk.system is:DNA 500,VAC Ren Sig pre,feeding SP Tech Revs. [transport with PS Audio L4] and of course the tt Technics 1210 with Benz.just getting back to vinyl and even though there is ZERO CONVEINENCE,it's too cool. :o just don't want to buy a piece of regret only to upgrade soon. :D
2bigears: nice pre! i've got the same one, with phono stage, and that caused me to upgrade from a thorens td125mkII to a merrill/scillia ms2. and it was night and day. check out the reviews - it's a keeper!
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:D ohhhh man,there's that night-and-day thing gain'.i gotta hide the cheque book NOW.... :D
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I see things a bit differently than both the two outstanding gents Wayne/WGH and TONEPUB/Jeff (sorry guys :|)
There is no quantitative measure for anything in audio insofar as sound quality is concerned....we are all spending alot of money chasing that last 10% down. If plaback is bound by the same set of variables.....electrical and mechanical interaction, the drawbacks of analog recording itself, an AC or DC driven turntable with a tonearm and a cartridge...the differences aren't and cannot be greater than 10%.
I mean, it either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't the difference is 100%...if two setups both work the greatest difference between them is likely only 10%. Okay, maybe it's 12.5 or even 18% in some mathematical model someone can concoct....but it's not the hyperbole that some with lavish on about.
To us, as audiophools, that 10% is a chasm we need to discover. The rest of the music playing public could basically care less.
So, yeah, there is a difference...but it's not as great as fellow audiophools would suggest it to be. Nonetheless, we all spend a lot of time obsessing over that last 10%....so go for it 2BE :thumb:
As for suspended tables....not needed today, mostly. In a time before constrained layer damping, vibrational analysis, widespread use and availability of sorbothane and other energy absorbing polymers...(spring...whether coiled or leaf) suspended tables were needed.
You now have a bevy of energy absorbing substances, shoes/feet and platforms available that will repel 99% of the ground transmitted issues away. Now when you stick yourself with a suspended table, by necessity, your motor is grafted to the table...not an a deal place for it to be.
With the better solid, non-suspended belt drivers today you have the ability to locate your motor physically separate and away from the record/cartridge/tonearm, etc.
I wouldn't spend $4K on a suspended deck today....there are better alternatives for that kind of cash for much easier to operate and better sounding non-suspended decks nowadays. VPI, Basis, Origin Live are but a few available that will offer a lot for $4K.
My best advice to you is after living with a direct drive deck capable of keeping time nearly as well as Redbook...don't buy any deck unless is has very tightly regulated outboard speed controller. Once you live with the perfect speed of quartz locked direct drive - even tho you might appreciate the lower noise floor, bigger/taller soundstage, more pinpoint imaging and greater 'detail' of a pricier belt drive setup...unless it has tightly regulated speed at it's core, you're likely to feel that you are taking a backwards step for all the money you've spent.
Belt drive decks with outboard speed controllers tend to be $500+++ more than those without (depending on their complexity). Spend that and you'll likely be happy with the tradeup.
John
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:D not again,,,,i know-i know,please hang with me boys as my cheque book is now half way open :lol: here is the short list after a little worldly exploration,, Origin Live table as in the Resolution mk2 with an Encounter arm.------ Or the TW Acoustic Raven 1 with say a used SME 4 arm. both cost kinda close,but the Raven is 3 month wait. all you vinyl heads that can help me decide will win the prize of me not asking anymore silly tt questions :lol: thks Pat
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Sleep on it... :sleep: It'll come to you eventually. :D
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They are hard to find used since they haven't been around a long time, but I'd like to try an Origin Live arm/table. They seem to get great press and the descriptions of the sonic characteristics have me intrigued. I'll keep dreaming...
about the only thing older than the Sota brand is Linn. Go to their website, and check out the refurbished tables they have on sale there. They take trade ins and then completely rebuild them with all the latest upgrades. My next table will be a Sota vacume table.
gary
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:D thks,just talked with Jeff,in NY-NY and those Ravens sound too cool.may have to try one out.i want this buy to last a while. :D sittin' in the sticks, where the oil flows :D
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Make sure your deck is on a great shelf or ultra-thick maple or other platform underneath...with compliant pads or legs of some sort to soak up what energy does sneak thru...at leat part of the great sound they are getting are available to improve any deck, no matter the humble beginnings.
Yes, spending $5K will get you a better deck than what you have...it will have a more refined sound, it will have a lower noise floor, it will near-equal in speed regulation (and likely good enough) assuming it an outboard power supply...but your still limited by the software (the record and analog recording process itself).
It cannot be a night and day difference as all phono playback and recording is held back by the same set of constraints. It's a flawed medium...it just happens to honor music more realistically than CD/Redbook when you tackle most of it's conquerable issues.
I'm not trying to talk you into keeping what you have or to spend biggie money on a boffo great uber-table.....it's your money and you can choose to do with it that you want....just know there ain't but a 10% difference between what you have and the best.
But, that last 10% is what we hunger for as audiophools...we spend it while most others sit idly and laugh at us :icon_lol:
Oh well - those poor non-audiophool schlubs don't know diddly :wink:
John
I currently own three tables and gave away a Technics direct drive awhile back. Even the suspension on the direct drive was somewhat ridgid and the other three are non-suspended. What I've found thru the years is that one needs to isolate that table as best he can. So far the best I've found is a Ginko Cloud by a wide margin. Now with this in mind lets get back to the Sotas a minute. We all know they're a good quality table, but many of us don't realize that they have a very well designed suspension system. This makes the bass have a nice warm sound. It's pretty hard to get that out of a non-suspended table or even a direct drive.
Dollar for dollar the best buy right now is the Marantz. I personally don't like the drive belts that VPI uses, and will never own another direct drive again. With that being said I do like most of the build quality of a VPI table. Now I've spent enough money thru the years on tables to buy a Sota Millenium with the vac option. For drive belts, I prefer string drives made from something that won't stretch (I currently am using a Kevlar / silk thread). But even now I have at least one or two more tricks up my sleeve.
gary
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I currently own three tables and gave away a Technics direct drive awhile back. Even the suspension on the direct drive was somewhat ridgid and the other three are non-suspended. What I've found thru the years is that one needs to isolate that table as best he can. So far the best I've found is a Ginko Cloud by a wide margin. Now with this in mind lets get back to the Sotas a minute. We all know they're a good quality table, but many of us don't realize that they have a very well designed suspension system. This makes the bass have a nice warm sound. It's pretty hard to get that out of a non-suspended table or even a direct drive.
Dollar for dollar the best buy right now is the Marantz. I personally don't like the drive belts that VPI uses, and will never own another direct drive again. With that being said I do like most of the build quality of a VPI table. Now I've spent enough money thru the years on tables to buy a Sota Millenium with the vac option. For drive belts, I prefer string drives made from something that won't stretch (I currently am using a Kevlar / silk thread). But even now I have at least one or two more tricks up my sleeve.
gary
Out of curiosity, what have you compared the Ginko to? To me the Silent Running platforms appear to be a more elegant solution, they at least offer levelling. They can also be cheaper than the Ginkos.
So instead of string drives, have you considered mag tape ala Teres and Galibier? Or, even the rim drive that VPI and Teres are now offering. At this point my next table short list is the Sota Cosmos, Teres 265 w/ Verus drive, or the smaller TW table. If i go with the Teres or TW I'll probably also get a Silent Running base for added isolation. I've convinced my wife that it's time for a new table, so I should have something by the end of the year.
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I currently own three tables and gave away a Technics direct drive awhile back. Even the suspension on the direct drive was somewhat ridgid and the other three are non-suspended. What I've found thru the years is that one needs to isolate that table as best he can. So far the best I've found is a Ginko Cloud by a wide margin. Now with this in mind lets get back to the Sotas a minute. We all know they're a good quality table, but many of us don't realize that they have a very well designed suspension system. This makes the bass have a nice warm sound. It's pretty hard to get that out of a non-suspended table or even a direct drive.
Dollar for dollar the best buy right now is the Marantz. I personally don't like the drive belts that VPI uses, and will never own another direct drive again. With that being said I do like most of the build quality of a VPI table. Now I've spent enough money thru the years on tables to buy a Sota Millenium with the vac option. For drive belts, I prefer string drives made from something that won't stretch (I currently am using a Kevlar / silk thread). But even now I have at least one or two more tricks up my sleeve.
gary
Out of curiosity, what have you compared the Ginko to? To me the Silent Running platforms appear to be a more elegant solution, they at least offer levelling. They can also be cheaper than the Ginkos.
So instead of string drives, have you considered mag tape ala Teres and Galibier? Or, even the rim drive that VPI and Teres are now offering. At this point my next table short list is the Sota Cosmos, Teres 265 w/ Verus drive, or the smaller TW table. If i go with the Teres or TW I'll probably also get a Silent Running base for added isolation. I've convinced my wife that it's time for a new table, so I should have something by the end of the year.
here's the list:
* a stock Atlantis rack (short one)
* standard steel pucks under the table
* brass pucks (slightly better)
* copper inert tungstin pucks (best I've found)
* solid copper pucks (not much difference between the above and this one
* ball bearing pucks with both steel and ceramic balls (not as good as the tungstin pucks)
* all the above pucks setting atop slabs of balsa wood (maybe a slight improvment yet)
* Big Rock ( was OK, but became a P.I.A. to level it all out and keep the motor aligned)
* hard maple (not as good as the Rock or the Cloud)
* Ginko Cloud
* with standard steel pucks (better than all of the above
* with tungstin pucks (not too much difference
* beech wood plates under the pucks (noticably better, but not a huge improvment)
* isolated the motor base
* brass plates (maybe a tiny bit better)
* aluminum plates (not as good)
* Sorbathane slab (really noticed a difference, and actually made the Denon D103 sound OK)
Also did some experiments with drive strings (they all are not the same). There were some noticable improvments here.
Next experiment will be to isolate the cartridge from the tone arm, and yet not change the tone arm mass too much if any.
gary
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:D doing some research on line and it seems that the maker of the Raven AC/One kinda reminds me of a fellow over here this side of the pond,Jim Salk.makes a very good product for a real price.the One is 5 grand new,but if it's a keeper,i think it might be the ticket.cheque book out,now where's the pen ???? :lol:
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:D doing some research on line and it seems that the maker of the Raven AC/One kinda reminds me of a fellow over here this side of the pond,Jim Salk.makes a very good product for a real price.the One is 5 grand new,but if it's a keeper,i think it might be the ticket.cheque book out,now where's the pen ???? :lol:
Nothing in audio is a keeper...not in the long term anyway.
Us maniacs are too busy chasing the Holy Grail.
hence........BUY USED!!
:lol:
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:D we all know used is King....but you NEVER see Ravens on the gon ....what is a poor boy to do ?? :D
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:D doing some research on line and it seems that the maker of the Raven AC/One kinda reminds me of a fellow over here this side of the pond,Jim Salk.makes a very good product for a real price.the One is 5 grand new,but if it's a keeper,i think it might be the ticket.cheque book out,now where's the pen ???? :lol:
Umm, I think the one is up to $6500 now, not quite the bargain it used to be. But still.... I'm real curious how it stacks up to a Teres or Galibier.
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:D those 3 tt's need a shoot-out,Raven 1,Teres 260 or 65,the little Galibier.....you never see any of these on the Gon....???? :D i think they are all close i price ?? :D
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:D those 3 tt's need a shoot-out,Raven 1,Teres 260 or 65,the little Galibier.....you never see any of these on the Gon....???? :D i think they are all close i price ?? :D
They are all going to sound different, not necc. better or worse. Im not a fan of the Teres stuff at all,
because it's always sounded way too warm and romantic for my tastes and my system. The Galibier
stuff is nice, but you are paying a huge premium for buying something that is made in extremely
limited quantities and not by a guy that is a full time turntable mfr.
What I like about the Raven so much is that it offers up an incredible balance between detail,
resolution, weight and musicality, without going too far either way. I also like the Raven TWO
(which is the model I own) because of the ability to use two tonearms. This is essential for my
work, but even for an audiophile with an extensive record collection it's pretty cool because you
can run more than one cartridge.
Again, I had the Raven side by side next to the continuum for three months, with both tables
sporting an identical Dynavector XV-1s and there wasn't enough diff. between the two to want
to even pursue keeping the Continuum for TEN TIMES THE DOUGH.
You won't go wrong with either of the three you mention, it's just a matter of how the tonal
balance of each will line up with your system/tonearm/cartridge combination.
And I don't mean to be disrespectful to our host the Chair Guy, but the diff between a table
in this league and an SL-1200 is like going from a Toyota Corolla to a Formula One car.
It doesn't mean the SL-1200 is not worthwhile, it's probably the best turntable value out there
today. If carefully setup can do amazing things. But if you have a system capable of the
resolution that one of these tables can offer and you also have a pretty good record
collection, you will not be disappointed.
Again, good luck on the search.
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Teeny, tiny companies all three (and in the case of Teres and Galibier, quite young companies)...not seeing used ones on A'gon probably speaks more to their small annual volumes than much else.
I'd be surprised if any of them turned out many more than 100 (complete, without arm) decks yearly.
None of this pointing to bad sound quality, of course, but you really cannot make the observation that their quality is great merely because you don't see any for sale.
Contrast that to a Rega or VPI or certainly a Technics (at 80,000 pcs. yearly), coupled with lengthy years in business, means many more decks will come up for sale on Audiogon.
John
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i was gonna tell you to save your money & get this, but someone awreddy beat me to it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190230567296
(http://i20.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/f7/fa/79c4_3.GIF)
a deck like this will be absolutely killer w/damping clay underneath, & the best arm you can afford...
doug s.
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And I don't mean to be disrespectful to our host the Chair Guy, but the diff between a table
in this league and an SL-1200 is like going from a Toyota Corolla to a Formula One car.
It doesn't mean the SL-1200 is not worthwhile, it's probably the best turntable value out there
today. If carefully setup can do amazing things. But if you have a system capable of the
resolution that one of these tables can offer and you also have a pretty good record
collection, you will not be disappointed.
No disrespect felt, Jeff...rock on :rock:
Candor and free form discussion about vinyl with politeness appropriate between relative strangers is all my fellow co-Fac Larry Crim and I can reasonably ask for.
Besides, I'm not by any means a staunch fanboy of the Technics...my co-Fac would fit that bill closer :)
I just bought my 'next' TT today....a fully refurbed DUAL 701 in a new (heavier lumber) base. I was talked out of the 1229 Idler by Bill at FixMyDual as he said his preference over all others is the 701. DC, Direct Drive (not quartz), 9 lb platter and semi-auto function sound worthy of $450.00 to me.
The guy is an expert at DUAL's of the 60-early 80's. The 701 is homely, but may work better than it's cover may suggest:
(http://www.vinylengine.com/images/model/dual_701.jpg) (http://www.fixmydual.com/images/woodbase1.jpg)
John
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And I don't mean to be disrespectful to our host the Chair Guy, but the diff between a table
in this league and an SL-1200 is like going from a Toyota Corolla to a Formula One car.
It doesn't mean the SL-1200 is not worthwhile, it's probably the best turntable value out there
today. If carefully setup can do amazing things. But if you have a system capable of the
resolution that one of these tables can offer and you also have a pretty good record
collection, you will not be disappointed.
No disrespect felt, Jeff...rock on :rock:
Candor and free form discussion about vinyl with politeness appropriate between relative strangers is all my fellow co-Fac Larry Crim and I can reasonably ask for.
Besides, I'm not by any means a staunch fanboy of the Technics...my co-Fac would fit that bill closer :)
I just bought my 'next' TT today....a fully refurbed DUAL 701 in a new (heavier lumber) base. I was talked out of the 1229 Idler by Bill at FixMyDual as he said his preference over all others is the 701. DC, Direct Drive (not quartz), 9 lb platter and semi-auto function sound worthy of $450.00 to me.
The guy is an expert at DUAL's of the 60-early 80's. The 701 is homely, but may work better than it's cover may suggest:
(http://www.vinylengine.com/images/model/dual_701.jpg) (http://www.fixmydual.com/images/woodbase1.jpg)
John
not familiar w/the 701, but it's a good thing you were talked out of the 1229. that was my first "real" turntable, bought as a young teenager - what a p.o.s. that was! i replaced it after college w/a cheap used $50 plastic pioneer belt-drive deck that killed it. only a few years later was i to enjoy really better decks, but i saw the handwriting on the wall...
doug s.
ps - i'd still take any empire deck over any dual deck, fwiw... aa
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=8092)
Me too!
Wayner
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Well, I'll see soon enough :thumb:
A 9 lb platter with Direct Drive (particularly if I can use the 2 lb outer platter clamp I have, too) should make this a potentially interesting deck to try.
As DUAL's of that era were....it's a suspended design (entire deck, including the tonearm, of course in this case). The much heavier outer base should damp down rumble significantly...and the DUAL DC motor is near peerless even today. It has an innovative mechanical damping system for resonance built into the counterweight, too.
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/701.shtml
John
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I currently own three tables and gave away a Technics direct drive awhile back. Even the suspension on the direct drive was somewhat ridgid and the other three are non-suspended. What I've found thru the years is that one needs to isolate that table as best he can. So far the best I've found is a Ginko Cloud by a wide margin. Now with this in mind lets get back to the Sotas a minute. We all know they're a good quality table, but many of us don't realize that they have a very well designed suspension system. This makes the bass have a nice warm sound. It's pretty hard to get that out of a non-suspended table or even a direct drive.
Dollar for dollar the best buy right now is the Marantz. I personally don't like the drive belts that VPI uses, and will never own another direct drive again. With that being said I do like most of the build quality of a VPI table. Now I've spent enough money thru the years on tables to buy a Sota Millenium with the vac option. For drive belts, I prefer string drives made from something that won't stretch (I currently am using a Kevlar / silk thread). But even now I have at least one or two more tricks up my sleeve.
gary
Out of curiosity, what have you compared the Ginko to? To me the Silent Running platforms appear to be a more elegant solution, they at least offer levelling. They can also be cheaper than the Ginkos.
So instead of string drives, have you considered mag tape ala Teres and Galibier? Or, even the rim drive that VPI and Teres are now offering. At this point my next table short list is the Sota Cosmos, Teres 265 w/ Verus drive, or the smaller TW table. If i go with the Teres or TW I'll probably also get a Silent Running base for added isolation. I've convinced my wife that it's time for a new table, so I should have something by the end of the year.
here's the list:
* a stock Atlantis rack (short one)
* standard steel pucks under the table
* brass pucks (slightly better)
* copper inert tungstin pucks (best I've found)
* solid copper pucks (not much difference between the above and this one
* ball bearing pucks with both steel and ceramic balls (not as good as the tungstin pucks)
* all the above pucks setting atop slabs of balsa wood (maybe a slight improvment yet)
* Big Rock ( was OK, but became a P.I.A. to level it all out and keep the motor aligned)
* hard maple (not as good as the Rock or the Cloud)
* Ginko Cloud
* with standard steel pucks (better than all of the above
* with tungstin pucks (not too much difference
* beech wood plates under the pucks (noticably better, but not a huge improvment)
* isolated the motor base
* brass plates (maybe a tiny bit better)
* aluminum plates (not as good)
* Sorbathane slab (really noticed a difference, and actually made the Denon D103 sound OK)
Also did some experiments with drive strings (they all are not the same). There were some noticable improvments here.
Next experiment will be to isolate the cartridge from the tone arm, and yet not change the tone arm mass too much if any.
gary
You tested quite a few items there...., but please realize that out of the entire list, only 2 are designed to isolate, the rest are couplers. To isolate you either need some sort of compliance or some other method of dissipating motion (usually into heat.)
I'm not doubting that you heard a difference, I'm just saying that many of the differences weren't due to isolation. Think of it this way, imagine replacing the shocks on your car with brass (or aluminum or cf) rods (cones). Will the car still be isolated from the road shocks? Now replace the tires with brass bands - how will the car ride?
I'm suprised at your comments on the SOTA. Why do you attribute bass warmth to the suspension?
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OK lets take some of my experiments a little deeper in thought and why I went that way:
I used to have access to some very nice vibration anylisis testing equipment, and with it on weekeds I did a lot of checking and rechecking. First of all it's near impossible to check a turntable itself, as it revolves way too slow for an accurate reading on any piece of equipment. But we had a special little program developed for us to check ball screw drives that was good down to about 15 rpm if you could run it for over two minutes. Yet this piece of equipment would register vibration of somekind even if it were not state of the art accurate. With this said, I'll kind guide you thru some of the ideas and directions I went, and why.
* It's very hard to test a turntable while playing anyform of music, and about the only things you can really test accurately are the motor and feet. With my turntables (well two of them)I was also able to set a probe up on the tone arm mounting brackets and top plate. But never the tonearn itself while playing music. What I really need is a good disc that has maybe three or four minutes of a certain frequency (say 50Hz, 200Hz, 1000Hz, and maybe 10KHz). This will allow the tester to be able to establish a better base to work from. One also needs t know that his turntable, arm, and stand are nothing more than a pickup for feed back even when not in use. Your house current will generate a 60Hz feedback thru the whole thing (this is what I used for a base test, and there is no good way to filter this out).
*First thing I checked was the motor by itself. Yes there was some feedback (or vibration from the motor itself) Then I took the turntable & motor drive by themselves without playing music. I did about a twenty minute test with this setup. Now I have another base line to compair with. The next test I did was with the CD player playing music (it's wise to have several CD's that offer different musical tones and volume level changes). I did put an LP on the turntable top here (why later). I then rechecked the motor, feet and also check the arm and mountings. I was alarmed at what I found! Another antenna for gathering vibrational forces (better said as vectors of sound). Checking two different tonearms (Graham and an SME) let me know they were vibrating almost all the time; even with the system completely shut down (remember the 60Hz thing?) So now we have to find the pathway this is getting into the table.
Still with all the above I now have several good base lines of data to compair notes with.
*a few weekends later I have to goto another seminar which requires the use of the testing equipment. All the while I made several new sets of pucks with the grand idea of decoupleing the force vectors from moving up thru the bast of the table. Some worked and some didn't as I spoke of before. One actually was worse. I first went with a set of aluminum pucks (6061-T6) that were ground flat. They were actually worse! I later added a piece of soft rubber to the bottom of them with some slight improvement, but then developed a motor alignment problem that the equipment detected instantly. I next went with solid copper pucks with a much greater improvement (brass was almost as good). A note here to let you all know that the thickness of the pucks was more than doubled. The reasoning behind the copper and the brass pucks was that the metals are somewhat resistant to vibrational forces when compaired to 1018 steel. Later I came into a six inch bar of copper inert tungstin (one of the most dense metals on the planet), and made six more pucks (gotta have them for the motor as well). Somewhat better results, and the tests showed this as well. But there was still feed back moving thru the arm and mount. I had a slab of Mallory metal to try, but it sorta dissapeared. So you can see the direct I was moving.
*Now we'll move into the Big Rock. I first set it up using plain old sand like you'd put in a kid's sand box. It worked pretty good according to the testing equipment and when compaired to the series of base line graphs. But I ran into other nonrelated problems that like to drove me nuts (the two tables weigh 30lb. and 42lb.). I had trouble aligning the motors with the platters, and found it to be a real pain to level. But once leveled I discovered a couple new problems.
The top floating piece was not heavy enough, so I corrected this with a new top about an inch thick. Really helped. I then removed the sand, and used washed sand like they sell in the pet shop. Sealed the box with caulk, and added the thicker top. Results were better, but not much better than before. It did sound a little better. Then on a whim I took a 6" hole saw and cut a piece out of the top to isolate the motor. This helped!, but also became a monster to align. The testing equipment found the motor rpm moving while trying to align itself. But with the one exception of building a third top for the box I lived with it for two years.
*with all the above I also had a cartridge problem that sorta stumped me. I switch from the Grado to a Denon D103, and the sound became sorta dull and thick (I wouldn't say lifeless).
*I now switch speakers to the new Odysseys, and things are not as good with the table. (I should note here that they will go down to an honet 30Hz and some think they'll do 25Hz). They really filled the room up with sound, and had bass that I never knew could be there (I'm not a bass nut)
*So now I happen to see an ad for a Ginko Cloud that made for the VPI HRX table, and bought it. Out goes the sand box! (besides it's pretty) Now I no longer have access to the testing equipment, but still have good base lines built up.
Well with the Ginko the Denon now sounds completely different in a better way. I checked the table base with a stethoscope, and could hear vibrations (but from where?) I was using the tungstin pucks, so I felt I couldn't do much better there. I then further isolated the motor with a home brew Sorbathane pad, and shimed the motor dead level again with the table. Now things really opened up. Even the bass got tighter, but the real improvment was in the highs.
Still I always knew the string was not right and was also acting like another antenna.
*Now one table came with cotten thread as a drive string, and the other used plain old monofilment fishing line (always knew this was junk). You could feel the string vibrating as it played a tune! Well I tried some other materials, and some worked well and others would sorta stretch and then catch back up. I needed something with little stretch and a very small knot while being very supple. Tried 12lb. flyline backing (gelspun for an even smaller line diameter), and it would have been ideal except that I just couldn't get a good small knot. Tried some of the high dollar low stretch fishing lines, but were toostiff for my liking. Then I decided to try real silk thread, but ran accross this Kevlar / silk combo. It worked with no felt vibration in it. Highs got a littler better yet, but no improvment in the bass. Like I said I have a couple more experiments up my sleeve yet to do.
I understand what you are saying about isolation and decoupling, but I think you are trying to pick atoms from the air. It's all applied mechanics here, and your trying to stop vectors of force from moving. The pucks acted both as decouplers and isolation devices. All I know is that it works.
gary
** Almost forgot! It's common knowledge that suspended tables have softer and warmer bass than the ridgid tables like I use. Noticed that you spoke of the Teres tables. I've never seen one in the real so I won't comment on them, but they are a beautifull looker. Tape will stretch over time, and this is a common factor with taper recording. I just don't trust it or the joint to connect it (although it's probably OK)
glt
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:D to my delight,my NEXT -TT will be a "Rega- P9",price was right,used but new condition.just needs a cart and not really sure what to load it with??.will face this tt off with the Technics 1210M5G.i gotta try this table as it comes with a nice price.the Raven i was lookin' at is 6k,2k for a good used arm and a k note for a good cart adds up faster than a blink of an eye.10,000.00 bucks is crazy money,kinda breaks the bank.the Rega has not a bad rep,good reviews on the most part.we will see :D
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:D to my delight,my NEXT -TT will be a "Rega- P9",price was right,used but new condition.just needs a cart and not really sure what to load it with??.will face this tt off with the Technics 1210M5G.i gotta try this table as it comes with a nice price.the Raven i was lookin' at is 6k,2k for a good used arm and a k note for a good cart adds up faster than a blink of an eye.10,000.00 bucks is crazy money,kinda breaks the bank.the Rega has not a bad rep,good reviews on the most part.we will see :D
a lateral move from what you have, imo. a tweaked empire w/upgraded arm would be better than either. let us know what you think w/the p9-sl1200 comparison...
doug s.
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That'll be an interesting face-off...Rega's have good second hand values, so you'll be able to sell it off without much of a beating if it doesn't fare well in comparison.
The P9 has a well regulated power supply and the platter is light..if it can keep timing/speed issues well and is quieter than the Technics, you got a shot of liking it as the arm is very good on it.
Either way, both decks no fuss kinda' devices (except that they are both manually operated). Set up and go is a nice thing when you can find it with vinyl playback :thumb:
John
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:D sideways is not what i want to hear :duh:. the P9 sells for about 6 times the money the 1210 goes for.this can't be right.i quess it will be a shoot-out for a poor boy that just can't see spending 10 large on a deck.that Rega has to do something right ?? :D
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:D sideways is not what i want to hear :duh:. the P9 sells for about 6 times the money the 1210 goes for.this can't be right.i quess it will be a shoot-out for a poor boy that just can't see spending 10 large on a deck.that Rega has to do something right ?? :D
2BE, the only thing that matters is how you like or relatively dislike it. You cannot always rely on others opinions as you are inherently different than anyone else. You toss your hat into the ring and take you chances (but report back extensively so we can all learn from your mistake or good fortune :wink:)
Rega's have a very good resale for good reason...folks like 'em.
Doug carefully prefaces his likes and dislikes with an 'imo'....and it really is an individual's decision as it's your money.
A great arm on a decent deck should play well...and save you $7K in your Piggie Bank for a while.
Ciao, John
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:D i hear-ya.it's not a bad gig to play with a couple g's.it's the 10 grand stuff that drives ya crazy.what do the Rega 9's like for carts ???? gotta line that up yet. thks :D
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Wrong thread :roll:
Frank
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:D sideways is not what i want to hear :duh:. the P9 sells for about 6 times the money the 1210 goes for.this can't be right.i quess it will be a shoot-out for a poor boy that just can't see spending 10 large on a deck.that Rega has to do something right ?? :D
rega will do a lot right. which is why it will be as good as the technics. :D sometime more money doesn't buy "better". :wink: rega arms are bargains, i can't say i feel the same way about their turntables. they are decent, but not world-beaters, even at their prices. and yes - as the chairguy emphasizes - imo! 8)
empires are definitely better, imo - i had a bone-stock un-refurb'd empire 208, w/an rs-labs rs-a1 tonearm on it, (this tonearm doesn't really need to be mounted, i yust had mine sitting there...), and the sound was so close to my mkv-upgraded original oracle w/origin-live dc motor kit & o-l rb250 arm, it made me think more than twice... i would have likely kept that arm, if i could have figured out a simple way to get an auto-lift device to work on it. instead, i traded it straight across for an o-l silver taper, o-l's then-best arm, before they went hog-wild & came out w/their encounter line. i sold the empire w/the surprisingly good wintage grado arm it came with... since then, i have picked up an empire 498, which awaits a project to mount my o-l rb250 on to it.... the 498 is the rare empire w/the suspension of the later 598/698 empires & the heavier platter of the earlier ones...
here's a pic of the rs-labs arm:
(http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0701/rs2a.jpg)
re: my raving about the empires, all i can say is atma-sphere, a highly respected audio mfr, likes them so much, they offer an upgrade for the early models - supply your old empire & $2800, & they will give you this (tonearm extra, of course!):
http://www.atma-sphere.com/products/208.html
(http://www.atma-sphere.com/images/208.jpg)
while i am sure it's great, i am also sure one can do the same for far less cash, w/simpler mods. and, even bone-stock, they are nothing to sneeze at...
of course, as always, & especially in audio - ymmv!
doug s.
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:D thks guys.i really love plug and play,and this works with the Rega decks.i love 60% off with an as new current model machine.if i did go sideways,i will know soon.i do know one thing,the Rega would sell more easily before the 1210.does any cart jump out at ya to fit on the P9's ?? thks :D
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:D sideways is not what i want to hear :duh:. the P9 sells for about 6 times the money the 1210 goes for.this can't be right.i quess it will be a shoot-out for a poor boy that just can't see spending 10 large on a deck.that Rega has to do something right ?? :D
setup right the P9 will smoke the Technics anyday of the week!! And twice on Sunday!
gary
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setup right the P9 will smoke the Technics anyday of the week!! And twice on Sunday!
gary
in your opinion? :wink:
in my opinion that might be true - if the technics were not "set up right"... :green:
doug s.
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:D sideways is not what i want to hear :duh:. the P9 sells for about 6 times the money the 1210 goes for.this can't be right.i quess it will be a shoot-out for a poor boy that just can't see spending 10 large on a deck.that Rega has to do something right ?? :D
setup right the P9 will smoke the Technics anyday of the week!! And twice on Sunday!
gary
I'm not sure about smoking the Technics, since I haven't heard the 1210. I have heard a P9 and it's absolutely a killer turntable. It times as well as my Roksan Xerxes 20 and has enormous and tight bass. I've heard it only with Dynavector cartridges- from the 17D2 to a Te Kaitora Rua (which I own). I've heard other P9 owners use it with the Dynavector XX2 to good results. Bottom line, Dynavectors and Rega arms go very well together.
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:D thks for the cart advice.i will need to buy one in the next few days.i don't know a whole lot on the tt front,but the 1210M5G sells for say 600 bucks while the P9 sells for nearly ten times that here in Canada,one add says 5750.00.[actually the same cost as a Raven].Ten times anything has to make some kind of difference :lol: it also looks plug and play,good for tt guys starting out. if anyone wants to sell a good cart to match,let me know....thks Pat :D
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The thing that stops me from buying the big dollar deck is the cost to performance issue. I think I'm close to "great vinyl" now and if I spend the big bucks, could I possibly be anything less than disappointed?
I have always believed that a properly set up deck with proper tweakage will bring the biggest bang for the buck and if it doesn't, pass it along for someone else. Taking a hit in the bean for 5+K is not my idea of fun. I know I'm going to expect the deck to sound 10 times better than my Technics SL-1200 and quite frankly I'm sure it's not possible. Besides, so someone has a 10K deck and it's set up like an idiot did it. Will that trounce my el-cheapo SL? I really don't think so. So, in my head you have 4 equations to deal with:
1. Cheap TT set up like an idiot.
2. Cheap TT set up like a master did it.
3. Big Buck table set up like and idiot.
and 4th:
Big Buck table set up like the master did it.
On the one hand If 1 and 3 are compared, I think they will sound very similar. Bad.
If 2 and 4 are compared, I don't think we are going to have even a 10 to 15% improvement (if that can even be judged). The records that have scratches with both go tic-tic-tic. The records that are clean will both sound great.
Wayner
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It depends on a number of factors, do you have a system capable of resolving
the difference, and do you have a great phono preamp and cartridge to go along
with it?
If so, the P9 will reveal considerably more music than the SL1200. I have one
here that we use as one of our reference and it's been set up as far as an SL1200
can be.
It's an awesome budget table and offers a ton of performance for the money.
I've heard plenty of the various mods and they offer more performance, again
at a good value, but comparing this table to the better decks like Sota, Oracle,
SME, the P9 and even the Continuum (which we had the opportunity to have
in the studio for three months), it's not even close.
We did a test, where everything else in the system was identical and we compared
turntable A to turntable B, with a Nagra VPS, which has two inputs and we used
a few MoFi albums that are the same title, but only one number apart.
The $5000 Dynavector XV-1s cartridge was used on both tables, so there
would be no question that the cartridge was what was holding either
of the tables back, nor would the rest of the system.
All tables were set up with the Acoustic Sounds Protractor, AS test
record, a Digital multimeter and an oscilloscope. Each time we switched
tables, VTA, VTF, anti skate and azimuth were optimized.
The Continuum Criterion was used as Table B and we were able to
easliy switch back and forth between table A and B with the same
cart and the same record.
We started with the SL1200 and worked our way up to a Rega P3-24,
a VPI Scoutmaster, an Oracle Delphi V, the SOTA Nova, Rega P9,
SME 10 and then the Raven Two. In the middle of things I had a friend
bring over a 1200 with most of the KAB mods.
Again the 1200 is incredibly good for the price, but just like the P3,
only offers up the basics when it comes to true high end sound reproduction.
If I had to compare it, I would compare the SL1200 to the Vandersteen 2Ce
in the sense that it does give you a ton of sound for a very reasonable price.
However, the nuances that are available in the big bucks stuff is not there.
That doesn't mean the SL1200 isn't a great deal, it is. And there are a lot
of happy 1200 (and Vandersteen) customers out there.
We also found out that the 1200, when close attention was payed to setup
was capable of a lot more sound than we intially thought, again showing
what a bargain this deck truly is. It's just that most people aren't going to
go buy 1000 dollars worth of test equipment to dial in a 300 dollar table.
But if you already have this stuff around, much more can be pulled out
of this humble deck, as you can with the rega p3. These two are probably
the best bang for the buck tables on the market today....
Well, that's the results of two weeks of screwing around in my life...
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i would start w/this, & upgrade it as funds allow. 2bigears, in your case, you could get all the upgrades now! :green: won't sound to shabby as-is... $650 w/no arm:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1219156969
(http://gon4.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1213972930.jpg)
doug s.
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i would start w/this, & upgrade it as funds allow. 2bigears, in your case, you could get all the upgrades now! :green: won't sound too shabby as-is... $650 w/no arm:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1219156969
(http://gon4.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1213972930.jpg)
doug s.
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:D i saw that Doug,you do like those decks,not really plug and play for a lazy ass like me.And thank-you Jeff for those 2 weeks,the 'not even close' is comfort as the P9 is on an airplane headed my way :o should be fun. :D
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We also found out that the 1200, when close attention was payed to setup
was capable of a lot more sound than we intially thought, again showing
what a bargain this deck truly is. It's just that most people aren't going to
go buy 1000 dollars worth of test equipment to dial in a 300 dollar table.
But if you already have this stuff around, much more can be pulled out
of this humble deck, as you can with the rega p3. These two are probably
the best bang for the buck tables on the market today....
Well, that's the results of two weeks of screwing around in my life...
Great report, Jeff - thanks for the utter honesty and slight reversal your original position on the SL-1200.
I am now steadfast that the annoying sonic artifact that I hear with my SL-1200 (with an Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III) arm is likely a loose motor housing and additional rumble being fed back into the sonic chain. I'll have to tidy that up with the outboard KAB motor mod or a new deck to try one day soon :D
John
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No problem.
What I'm trying to say (and I think I'm failing at it..)
is that the SL1200 is an excellent turntable and an
excellent value.
What I see so much in this world of ours is that people
want to believe that what they have is the "best" and especially
better than what someone else spent more money on.
My job is to investigate everything and the hardest part is
to put a value on what this stuff costs. I got some big
grenades launched at me last issue, (especially by the
mfr) for saying I didn't feel the 56 thousand dollar continuum
was not worth the money.
If you are like Wayner and many others that say you are
extremely happy with your LP setup, no matter what the
cost, I say stop there!
I know my advertisers don't like it when I say that, but
seriously, I've spent years of agonizing over this stuff
and if you've got something that is working great, have
a drink and stop worrying about gear!!
There have been too many times that I've had a system
right at that point and tried to get more only to miss the
mark, or merely get different instead of better.
Again, you have to remember my perspective is to
investigate and quantify things as much as we can.
So if you ask me "Is the SL1200 a great table and a
great value?" I'll say yes every time.
And thanks to the interaction with the people out here,
I used to be someone that used to turn their nose up
at a 1200 (even though it was my first table, many years ago).
But after seeing the enthusiasm here, it made me and
our other writer Marc Phillips get 1200's and play with
them. Now that we have one in regular rotation, it's very
easy to compare it to something else and there have been
many times that I've recommended a 1200 over a P3.
It's all about finding the right gear for YOU, not me.
So I hope this makes some sense. This is one of the main
reasons I hang out here. I'm always intrigued with what's
getting a lot of buzz. Some of it I agree with, some of it
I don't, but that's what makes this fun!
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Thanks Tonepub that really hit the nail on the head merely get different instead of better. this so so true when your system reaches a certain point. I keep looking at turntables and waffeling about what price point i should jump into and i'm beging to think you and the chair guy are going to talk me right into a kbmod 1200
ed
No problem.
What I'm trying to say (and I think I'm failing at it..)
is that the SL1200 is an excellent turntable and an
excellent value.
What I see so much in this world of ours is that people
want to believe that what they have is the "best" and especially
better than what someone else spent more money on.
My job is to investigate everything and the hardest part is
to put a value on what this stuff costs. I got some big
grenades launched at me last issue, (especially by the
mfr) for saying I didn't feel the 56 thousand dollar continuum
was not worth the money.
If you are like Wayner and many others that say you are
extremely happy with your LP setup, no matter what the
cost, I say stop there!
I know my advertisers don't like it when I say that, but
seriously, I've spent years of agonizing over this stuff
and if you've got something that is working great, have
a drink and stop worrying about gear!!
There have been too many times that I've had a system
right at that point and tried to get more only to miss the
mark, or merely get different instead of better.
Again, you have to remember my perspective is to
investigate and quantify things as much as we can.
So if you ask me "Is the SL1200 a great table and a
great value?" I'll say yes every time.
And thanks to the interaction with the people out here,
I used to be someone that used to turn their nose up
at a 1200 (even though it was my first table, many years ago).
But after seeing the enthusiasm here, it made me and
our other writer Marc Phillips get 1200's and play with
them. Now that we have one in regular rotation, it's very
easy to compare it to something else and there have been
many times that I've recommended a 1200 over a P3.
It's all about finding the right gear for YOU, not me.
So I hope this makes some sense. This is one of the main
reasons I hang out here. I'm always intrigued with what's
getting a lot of buzz. Some of it I agree with, some of it
I don't, but that's what makes this fun!
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One thing we didn't even mention is how much music
do you have and what shape is it in?
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setup right the P9 will smoke the Technics anyday of the week!! And twice on Sunday!
gary
in your opinion? :wink:
in my opinion that might be true - if the technics were not "set up right"... :green:
doug s.
you might tell that to some folks, but I know the difference cause I've owned two of them. And there are still a couple laying around in the family. If you just gotta have a direct table, then look for a good Micro Seiki.
gary
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setup right the P9 will smoke the Technics anyday of the week!! And twice on Sunday!
gary
in your opinion? :wink:
in my opinion that might be true - if the technics were not "set up right"... :green:
doug s.
you might tell that to some folks, but I know the difference cause I've owned two of them. And there are still a couple laying around in the family. If you just gotta have a direct table, then look for a good Micro Seiki.
gary
i've not owned them, but i have heard them, & properly set up, they're pretty damned nice. i never heard a kabusa iteration, which is supposed to make them even better.
as always, ymmv...
doug s.
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TONEPUB,
I think we are on the same page, but I want to make my point a little clearer. I don't think my tables are the best out there, nor am I completely satisfied with their performance. I can appreciate the VPI Black Knight or a P9 or a high end Nottingham or Oracle, Linn or Basis there are so many out there. My goal is to understand the geometry of all of these machines and dissect them and digest them until I understand them completely. I'm, shall we say, working from the bottom up. Through tweaking, I have a least 5 completely different tables sounding almost the same. That means I'm either doing something right or I'm really lucky. I don't believe in luck.
I do have some plans to build a table. With the help of some of my friends, I have high hopes in dialing the tolerances to .00001", to a Baerwald perfect alignment. I doubt it has been done yet. While platter weight, speed stability, outboard vibration influences all have a role in proper (or skewed) playback of vinyl, I believe that cartridge alignment and position relative to pivot are ultra-critical. It's like playing with your speakers, moving the toe angle in or out, tipping them up or a little down, then suddenly, the sound stage opens up so wide you could crawl right in. That is what I want.
As time and fashion are starting to prove, There is a tremendous amount of information on a groove of vinyl. I think in the early days they had no idea. I think one of the major reasons for vinyls' comeback (to some never left) is a way better cartridge and stylus that is affordable.
As all of us learn from each other about various tweaks and alignment procedures, we are advancing as a group. I've learned alot from this forum from quite a few and I hope they can say the same for me. I always come down to one small problem with the high dollar machine. CAN YOU HANDLE IT? Can you set it up with confidence, or surely what a waste of time.
Wayner :)
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Thanks Tonepub that really hit the nail on the head merely get different instead of better. this so so true when your system reaches a certain point. I keep looking at turntables and waffeling about what price point i should jump into and i'm beging to think you and the chair guy are going to talk me right into a kbmod 1200
ed
Hey Ed,
Just so you know...I have a very, very old and worn SL-1200 Mk. II that I bought on ebay for $160 or something. It had a hard life indeed in the past. Further, the guy that sent it to me (3000 miles away) put it in the flimsiest box you've ever seen a TT lay in...and the arm (which I suspected worked beforehand was crushed).
Rather than complaining (it was a running TT and I bought it for only $160) I bought an Origin Live tonearm mount (to fit Rega and Rega mount arms). I used it for a time with an uber-modded RB250 and then an Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III (a $3K tonearm :o)
I've reported that it was good indeed....but had an annoying sound that I couldn't rid the deck of (even tho I was not using the stock tonearm...the part that normally receives the most criticism about it in forums...incorrectly or not :roll:)
But, and this is a very big BUT(T), my Technics was so horribly mistreated in past live(s) that the motor has probably shaken loose from the housing and causing considerable rumble back into the playback.
So - my results may in fact be a-typical from a high-quality stock SL-1200.
Highly compliant feet in place of the stock ones, at the very least, seem to be in order to improve it. The KAB damping pot will steer away all manners of vibrational energy away from your stylus/tonearm and is likely a great addition (and at $150.00 and totally DIY very reasonably priced). The outboard motor and strobe disabler is $300, and unless you are skilled technically, best left for KAB to do.
Finally, or perhaps done before anything else, is changing out the stock rubber mat to something that deadens the platter and interfaces with your records better. A Herbie's Way Excellent top mat and Isoplatmat sub-mat would run $175.00 and be a decidedly good upgrade.
Once you spring for the $500 table, you can build your Technics to higher spec a couple hundred at a time. $800 in add-ons + the $500 deck will likely get you a surprising amount of table for what passes for chump change these days.
So, you may well like your 'next TT' choice as a Technics SL-1200...especially at such a light price to start.
Enjoy - John
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TONEPUB,
I think we are on the same page, but I want to make my point a little clearer. I don't think my tables are the best out there, nor am I completely satisfied with their performance. I can appreciate the VPI Black Knight or a P9 or a high end Nottingham or Oracle, Linn or Basis there are so many out there. My goal is to understand the geometry of all of these machines and dissect them and digest them until I understand them completely. I'm, shall we say, working from the bottom up. Through tweaking, I have a least 5 completely different tables sounding almost the same. That means I'm either doing something right or I'm really lucky. I don't believe in luck.
I do have some plans to build a table. With the help of some of my friends, I have high hopes in dialing the tolerances to .00001", to a Baerwald perfect alignment. I doubt it has been done yet. While platter weight, speed stability, outboard vibration influences all have a role in proper (or skewed) playback of vinyl, I believe that cartridge alignment and position relative to pivot are ultra-critical. It's like playing with your speakers, moving the toe angle in or out, tipping them up or a little down, then suddenly, the sound stage opens up so wide you could crawl right in. That is what I want.
As time and fashion are starting to prove, There is a tremendous amount of information on a groove of vinyl. I think in the early days they had no idea. I think one of the major reasons for vinyls' comeback (to some never left) is a way better cartridge and stylus that is affordable.
As all of us learn from each other about various tweaks and alignment procedures, we are advancing as a group. I've learned alot from this forum from quite a few and I hope they can say the same for me. I always come down to one small problem with the high dollar machine. CAN YOU HANDLE IT? Can you set it up with confidence, or surely what a waste of time.
Wayner :)
Can handle it no prob. This is what I do for a living, every day, 8-12 hours a day.
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No problem.
What I'm trying to say (and I think I'm failing at it..).......
Great post. High marks. And yes, I have owned entry level Regas with mods and a Technics SL1200. A friend owns a KAB modded SL1200. It is all about what you like. Vinyl can be like a deep dark rabbit hole.
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TONEPUB,
My commet wasn't directed at you (or about you). To make myself even further clearerererer, I think there are plenty of big ego guys that will lay down big bucks for these exotic tables, and have them set up horribly. I betting this is the case all over. I'm sure you have your table(s) set up properly, I just don't think there are many that truely understand the geometry involved and really have things where they should.
Wayner :D
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Are you calling me out Wayner? :wink:
Seriously, I fidget over the setup all the time. I am not absolutely sure I have the optimum setup but I like the sound I get with my toys. I wouldn't mind an expert go over my set up either. Vinyl rocks. :rock:
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Oh Woodsyi,
I think your one of them that's got it under control. :D I think most here at AC have their tables dialed in. If you remember one of my posts awhile back, the table will let you know when it's happy 'cause the sound field will open up and start playing surround sound with the 2 speakers.
Of all of the adjustments to be made, the angular offset is the most difficult to get a handle on and just a few 10ths of a degree can drive mechanical distortion up, big time.
On a slightly different note, I discovered a source of verberant noise from the SL-1200. It's the damn dust cover. If you open up the cover while playing a record, tap on the plinth and you will hear the tap. Take the cover off and try the tap again. Way less noise. When you examine the dust cover, you will notice 2 compression springs. That's what keeps the cover up. Ever seen the old spring reverb units from the 60-70's? That's right, they used long springs. So maybe the springs in the hinges aint such a fine idea. I am going to try and damp them down somehow. Live and learn.
Woodsyi, the only reason I may have one up on some of you is that I'm an engineer and I have CAD software. That allows me to create tone arm trajectories and plot null points and print the damn thing out full scale. I actually have made alignent cards for all of the tables I own. They are all designed to the specifications of the 'table/tone arm.
What has always made me wonder is why we have so many tone arm/overhang/offset angles from almost every table/arm maker. They're all over the board and only a few copied Bearwalds design parimeters. I just don't get it :scratch:
Wayner
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Wayner...take that dang dustcover off during playback :o Seriously. It is doing nothing potentially positive for sonics.
Take it off when playing...put it back on to keep prying fingers and dust from your table.
You need only put it on and off twice a day...it's a worthwhile 'tweek' (as you've found)
John
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Ok, Ok, I'll take the cover off. But it's like sittin' in my underware :lol:
Wayner
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We started with the SL1200 and worked our way up to a Rega P3-24,
a VPI Scoutmaster, an Oracle Delphi V, the SOTA Nova, Rega P9,
SME 10 and then the Raven Two. In the middle of things I had a friend
bring over a 1200 with most of the KAB mods.
Again the 1200 is incredibly good for the price, but just like the P3,
only offers up the basics when it comes to true high end sound reproduction.
If I had to compare it, I would compare the SL1200 to the Vandersteen 2Ce
in the sense that it does give you a ton of sound for a very reasonable price.
However, the nuances that are available in the big bucks stuff is not there.
That doesn't mean the SL1200 isn't a great deal, it is. And there are a lot
of happy 1200 (and Vandersteen) customers out there.
We also found out that the 1200, when close attention was payed to setup
was capable of a lot more sound than we intially thought, again showing
what a bargain this deck truly is. It's just that most people aren't going to
go buy 1000 dollars worth of test equipment to dial in a 300 dollar table.
But if you already have this stuff around, much more can be pulled out
of this humble deck, as you can with the rega p3. These two are probably
the best bang for the buck tables on the market today....
Well, that's the results of two weeks of screwing around in my life...
Jeff - what did you do in setup for the SL-1200 that rather dramatically reversed your opinion of it?
Cartridge angles - fore, aft, horizontal and vertical? Anti-skate, tracking force, amount of silicone in the bath of how far the paddle sits in it, different viscosity of silicone, different VTA....? 8)
As a solid, non-suspended deck with the motor spindle and actual extension of the motor itself....some amount of de-coupling from the physical environment is needed (moreso than the inherently better isolated and de-coupled belt driver units).
Squishy/compliant feet better than stock help (on an inert surface)...as do a damping scheme for the platter (which is again directly attached to the motor and is coupled to it's energy output, unfortunately) and a better interface for the record than the rubber mat that Technics supplies.
If you haven't done this, you still haven't likely heard what the deck is capable of yet...without a large investment in improvements.
John
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But it's like sittin' in my underware :lol:
Which is also good for sonics, btw :lol:
John
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:D Jeff in NY mentioned 1/2 hour to set up the Raven.The P9 looks easy to set up also.For a starter tt guy,what are the tools you need to set up your own deck.My 1210 was way easy to set up,but not checked by a pro,how do you know.The only reasons why i bought the P9 is first,i got it at 60% off,and second,it looks very basic to rig up,and Jeff D highly spoke of it along with the fact it is Regas top deck,in Canada it is ten times the price of the 1210,it's gotta be better.But,some of you guys say all tt's need perfect set up,how is this done and what does it involve beyond the 1210 set up guide.???? do you actually need some geo tools to properly set the gear ?? some people say it's too easy,some say you need to be perfect.again.what needs to be in your tool box for a great set up ???? thks for the input :D :D
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TONEPUB,
My commet wasn't directed at you (or about you). To make myself even further clearerererer, I think there are plenty of big ego guys that will lay down big bucks for these exotic tables, and have them set up horribly. I betting this is the case all over. I'm sure you have your table(s) set up properly, I just don't think there are many that truely understand the geometry involved and really have things where they should.
Wayner :D
No offense taken at all. I've seen a LOT of this with guys with big bucks setups!
I've seen guys with super expensive tables that aren't even level!!!!
I guess what I'm trying to say also, is that before you think about a new table,
make sure the one you have is as dialed in as you can get it, because if it isn't,
I'll bet there's some more performance lurking in what you already own.
It drives me nuts sometimes...
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2BE, if you want near perfect execution...Rega sells cartridges too that mount in a three point pattern right into the Rega headshell on the P9. It's as easy and perfect a set up as you will find in vinyl.
The downside, however, is that most vinylphools don't like the sound of many/most of them...even in the Rega arms :(
The infrequent 'free lunch' is rather rare in vinyl, sad to say :wink:
John
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2BE,
Puttin' the stylus where it needs to be is 3/4ths the battle. The technics is fairly easy 'cause they give you a tool to align the stylus tip on the head shell. All you have to do is keep the front edge of the cartridge parallel with the front edge of the headshell, align the stylus with the tool and your done. The Sl-1200 is very well engineered in this regard.
The other things would be VTA, simply put adjusting the back of the arm, at the pivot, so that the arm is parallel with the record. To do that, put an old record on the table, set the stylus on it (table not running) and measure the arm at various points to see if it's parallel. Adjust as needed. The other thing is azimuth of the cartridge. Is it cockeyed in the tone arm head (the head could be crooked) and then it may require a shim. To check this, place a small flat mirror on the old record and set the stylus on the mirror. Everything should look parallel between cartridge and image on the mirror.
The 3rd thing to do is set the anti-skating. I use a blank disc to do this. I had one made out of acrylic and it works very well.
I know I didn't explain the ins and outs of the stylus location very well and it's a dark and murky subject. I will have a couple of beers while I bar-b-Que and try come up with a good across the board explanation.
Wayner
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That's true, all of the Rega MM carts are a bit on the dark side for
my taste, but their new Apheta Moving coil is quite nice. You will
need a phono preamp with a 50ohm load setting to get the most
out of it though.
The other thing to keep in mind with VTA on the P9 (or any rega
for that matter) is that it is not adjustable like it is on many other
tables, where it is just a height adjustment.
How you keep this fairly straight is by measuring the length of the
stylus tip to the top of the cartridge. On Rega carts, this is 14mm.
Most of the MC carts I've tested are all around 17-20mm, so what
you will need to do is order some tonearm spacers (made by Rega)
from Music Direct or a local rega dealer. Once you know what cart
you are getting, you can figure that out and make the necc adjustment.
In the meantime your cartridge will probably sound a touch thin.
Or, you can just get the Rega Elyse (the 550 dollar one) which is
probably the best sounding of the lot and have easy setup.
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...along with the fact it is Regas top deck,in Canada it is ten times the price of the 1210, it's gotta be better...
extremely poor reasoning, imo. :nono: ideas like this can get you in big trouble, in audio, & in other aspects of life as well... while it it is true that many times expensive stuff performs better, it's not always true. for an example, (where you don't need to trust my opinion about a piece of gear, but for opinions from industry-types - both rewiewer and mfr), check out srajan ebaen's rewiew of the almarro a318b, & wlm speaker mfr hannes frick's comments about it...
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/almarro5/318.html
doug s.
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Hmmm-Psychic Animal preceeded me by a few years but its strange to hear the stuff I've been preaching for years coming from other people.
I do disagree of course about taking the dust cover off for listening. It makes no difference in the sound at all and it keeps the records clean so mine stays on. A really good MC cartridge and phono section do help immensely but the Technics 1200 MKII w/ all the KAB mods is all the TT I need .
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Can I ask who here has heard a Rega P9 with RB1000 arm? The reason I'm asking is because IMO it represents quite a leap in sound quality from Rega decks that most people would be exposed to (P3 or lower). I haven't even heard the new P3 24, so I can't comment on that deck. The last P3 I heard was a P3 2000 and I owned an earlier iteration of the P3 I used in the late 90s.
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Can I ask who here has heard a Rega P9 with RB1000 arm? The reason I'm asking is because IMO it represents quite a leap in sound quality from Rega decks that most people would be exposed to (P3 or lower). I haven't even heard the new P3 24, so I can't comment on that deck. The last P3 I heard was a P3 2000 and I owned an earlier iteration of the P3 I used in the late 90s.
this is a good point. i have not heard rega's latest. maybe it really is a worthwhile improvement over a technics sl1200. but, this doesn't prove that just cuz something costs ten time the amount of something else, it is necessarily better.
doug s.
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Can I ask who here has heard a Rega P9 with RB1000 arm? The reason I'm asking is because IMO it represents quite a leap in sound quality from Rega decks that most people would be exposed to (P3 or lower). I haven't even heard the new P3 24, so I can't comment on that deck. The last P3 I heard was a P3 2000 and I owned an earlier iteration of the P3 I used in the late 90s.
this is a good point. i have not heard rega's latest. maybe it really is a worthwhile improvement over a technics sl1200. but, this doesn't prove that just cuz something costs ten time the amount of something else, it is necessarily better.
doug s.
I can't say whether it is a worthwhile improvement over the SL1200, as I've never heard the SL1200. It seems the only people that can do that on this thread are Jeff (TonePub) and the gentleman who initiated this thread, whom I think has a Technics 1210. All I can say is the P9 is a very large step up from other Rega decks I've heard (old P2, old P3, P3 2000, P25, and P5 with power supply). I guess my point is don't generalize the performance of, for example, an old P3 to the P9 because that would be a mistake. The P9 is a totally different deck in sonics and build quality.
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Can I ask who here has heard a Rega P9 with RB1000 arm? The reason I'm asking is because IMO it represents quite a leap in sound quality from Rega decks that most people would be exposed to (P3 or lower). I haven't even heard the new P3 24, so I can't comment on that deck. The last P3 I heard was a P3 2000 and I owned an earlier iteration of the P3 I used in the late 90s.
this is a good point. i have not heard rega's latest. maybe it really is a worthwhile improvement over a technics sl1200. but, this doesn't prove that just cuz something costs ten time the amount of something else, it is necessarily better.
doug s.
I can't say whether it is a worthwhile improvement over the SL1200, as I've never heard the SL1200. It seems the only people that can do that on this thread are Jeff (TonePub) and the gentleman who initiated this thread, whom I think has a Technics 1210. All I can say is the P9 is a very large step up from other Rega decks I've heard (old P2, old P3, P3 2000, P25, and P5 with power supply). I guess my point is don't generalize the performance of, for example, an old P3 to the P9 because that would be a mistake. The P9 is a totally different deck in sonics and build quality.
that's why i am interested in 2bigears' findings. then he can also compare them to a mint refurb'd wintage empire, w/an upgraded tonearm, & i will really be a pig-n-poop! :lol:
doug s.
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Can I ask who here has heard a Rega P9 with RB1000 arm? The reason I'm asking is because IMO it represents quite a leap in sound quality from Rega decks that most people would be exposed to (P3 or lower). I haven't even heard the new P3 24, so I can't comment on that deck. The last P3 I heard was a P3 2000 and I owned an earlier iteration of the P3 I used in the late 90s.
this is a good point. i have not heard rega's latest. maybe it really is a worthwhile improvement over a technics sl1200. but, this doesn't prove that just cuz something costs ten time the amount of something else, it is necessarily better.
doug s.
I can't say whether it is a worthwhile improvement over the SL1200, as I've never heard the SL1200. It seems the only people that can do that on this thread are Jeff (TonePub) and the gentleman who initiated this thread, whom I think has a Technics 1210. All I can say is the P9 is a very large step up from other Rega decks I've heard (old P2, old P3, P3 2000, P25, and P5 with power supply). I guess my point is don't generalize the performance of, for example, an old P3 to the P9 because that would be a mistake. The P9 is a totally different deck in sonics and build quality.
that's why i am interested in 2bigears' findings. then he can also compare them to a mint refurb'd wintage empire, w/an upgraded tonearm, & i will really be a pig-n-poop! :lol:
doug s.
That will be interesting to read about. Hurry up and do your listening 2bigears! Maybe you need 3bigears now to handle all these comparisons :lol:
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:D not really too happy bout' the Rega shim-shim-man-e on the vta,that's prehistoric stuff.also,i know all to well price means nothing in this hobby,but i paid 700 bucks for the 1210 and the local dealer here sells the P9 at 5750.i really think things should get better.but,i know like all you fine gents are saying,set up is most critical.i quess i can stop in at the big city store to see if the have set up tools if needed.not sure what i will need.what is that tt guru's book called ?? his instuctions are clear and easy i hope...?? still don't have a cart for the 9 ???? :scratch:
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:D not really too happy bout' the Rega shim-shim-man-e on the vta,that's prehistoric stuff.also,i know all to well price means nothing in this hobby,but i paid 700 bucks for the 1210 and the local dealer here sells the P9 at 5750.i really think things should get better.but,i know like all you fine gents are saying,set up is most critical.i quess i can stop in at the big city store to see if the have set up tools if needed.not sure what i will need.what is that tt guru's book called ?? his instuctions are clear and easy i hope...?? still don't have a cart for the 9 ???? :scratch:
http://www.vtaf.com/
Frank
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what is that tt guru's book called ?? his instuctions are clear and easy i hope...?? still don't have a cart for the 9 ???? :scratch:
Michael Fremer has a practical guide to turntable setup DVD called "21st Century Vinyl". You should get the disk, on it he has a detailed demo on how to set up a Rega P5 which might help.
The DVD also has a discount coupon for 10%-30% off plus free shipping for any Wally Tool.
Wayne
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:D not really too happy bout' the Rega shim-shim-man-e on the vta,that's prehistoric stuff.also,i know all to well price means nothing in this hobby,but i paid 700 bucks for the 1210 and the local dealer here sells the P9 at 5750.i really think things should get better.but,i know like all you fine gents are saying,set up is most critical.i quess i can stop in at the big city store to see if the have set up tools if needed.not sure what i will need.what is that tt guru's book called ?? his instuctions are clear and easy i hope...?? still don't have a cart for the 9 ???? :scratch:
How much do you want to spend? What is your phonostage? Types of music you listen to?
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:D thks guys,we will get the 9 up and runnin' in no time flat.that disc should help lots as the 5 in a sister tt.what the heck is a wally tool ???? :D that vta adjuster looks great,does it work on the 1000 arm ???? thks alot guys.dummy in the sticks,knows squat bout' tt's needs all the help he can get. :duh: :D
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:D budget for cart is 1k max,i was hoping that would do it.used is more than fine.old classic r&r is mostly on the tt,with some easy listening stuff too.phono stage is what's in the VAC pre.takes both mm and mc.thks :D
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what the heck is a wally tool ????
http://www.simplyblack.net/WVC/wally_start.html (http://www.simplyblack.net/WVC/wally_start.html)
Never used them but Micheal Fremer likes Wally's stuff.
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:D budget for cart is 1k max,i was hoping that would do it.used is more than fine.old classic r&r is mostly on the tt,with some easy listening stuff too.phono stage is what's in the VAC pre.takes both mm and mc.thks :D
I would look for a used Dynavector XX-2 or a Dynavector 17D3, which work great for R&R. The latter is a little more neutral, which may work well with the VAC, if it has enough gain in MC mode. The 17D3 has like .3mv of gain or so, so you'll need at least 60db of gain or more in your VAC mc. If you want to save even more you can get a Dynavector 17D2 used. Otherwise, a Rega Exact 2 is pretty idiot proof and sounds good.
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Can I ask who here has heard a Rega P9 with RB1000 arm? The reason I'm asking is because IMO it represents quite a leap in sound quality from Rega decks that most people would be exposed to (P3 or lower). I haven't even heard the new P3 24, so I can't comment on that deck. The last P3 I heard was a P3 2000 and I owned an earlier iteration of the P3 I used in the late 90s.
I think the P9/RB1000 combination is even a healthy step up in resolution and weight from the older P9/RB900 combo.
Many feel that the Rega tables are pretty evenly spaced along the line in terms of value and performance.
I still own a P3-24 with the TT-PSU and a P9, which is one of my references. I've had the opportunity to
have the P5 and P7 here too and for my money, I really like the P3 and the P9. I think the P5 and P7 are
only incremental upgrades, especially if you put one of the Groovetracer machined subplatters on a P3 or P5.
But to me, the P9 is a huge jump in performance from the P7. Much more dynamic, open, more weight to the
bass, so much so that most of my friends that have heard it are always surprised it's a Rega.
To answer the other question, if you want a good deal on a used 17D3, please PM me, i have one to
get rid of. (Moved up to a Dynavector XV-1s...)
Let me know, happy to help.
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:D 17D3 would be perfect....pm coming and thks much..... :D
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Can I ask who here has heard a Rega P9 with RB1000 arm? The reason I'm asking is because IMO it represents quite a leap in sound quality from Rega decks that most people would be exposed to (P3 or lower). I haven't even heard the new P3 24, so I can't comment on that deck. The last P3 I heard was a P3 2000 and I owned an earlier iteration of the P3 I used in the late 90s.
I think the P9/RB1000 combination is even a healthy step up in resolution and weight from the older P9/RB900 combo.
Many feel that the Rega tables are pretty evenly spaced along the line in terms of value and performance.
I still own a P3-24 with the TT-PSU and a P9, which is one of my references. I've had the opportunity to
have the P5 and P7 here too and for my money, I really like the P3 and the P9. I think the P5 and P7 are
only incremental upgrades, especially if you put one of the Groovetracer machined subplatters on a P3 or P5.
But to me, the P9 is a huge jump in performance from the P7. Much more dynamic, open, more weight to the
bass, so much so that most of my friends that have heard it are always surprised it's a Rega.
To answer the other question, if you want a good deal on a used 17D3, please PM me, i have one to
get rid of. (Moved up to a Dynavector XV-1s...)
Let me know, happy to help.
great thread ! and very interesting reading tonepub. havent really considered upgradign my rega p25 or even ever considered a P9 ! :D
been pretty content with my p25 for the last 5-6 years have had it I guess :) my biggest vinyl upgrade been with the phono pre recently, and good to know of the potential gains from moving up the rega tree.
great to read the P9 stands up well as a reference deck among some pretty decent company :)
I realise my p25 is a pretty humble affair by comparison, though am pretty fond of the rega sound and the ortofon mc10 supreme stylus I have been running with it. so if ever considered upgrading would definitely consider a p9 :)
the dynavectors you mentioned sound like something pretty decent. anyone tried any ortofons with the p9 or other rega deck ? would be keen to understand the difference in sound ortofon to dynavctor on these decks/arms.
bigears look forward to how you find the p9/ does thsi website allow pics ? would love to see it set up :)
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One of the easiest ways to make a cartridge alignment tool is to copy the basic idea of the AR tool. All you need to know is the overhang dimension and drill a very small hole that distance from the spindle hole center.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14942)
To use it just point the pointer end at the center of your arm's pivot and the see if the stylus fits in the hole. Of course you will have to align the front end of the cartridge to the front end of the shell or tone arm but this will get you very close.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14941)
Wayner
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:D P9 is in house.Fedex from Texas to Alberta.customs wants a bill of sale now,i stood there at the counter,started to think how i could get a BOS real fast as i drove 3.5 hours to pickup with out,then the large customs girl eyed the paypal payment paper,good enough for her.then they look on the website for article value,they are lookin' for cheaters,as they want ever tax buck they can get !!!! i bought the dvd on tt setup and just need a stylus.will be puttin' on a Dyna-xx2mk2 to try her out. lets see what 7 times the $ gets ya :scratch:???? :D
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:D P9 is in house.Fedex from Texas to Alberta.customs wants a bill of sale now,i stood there at the counter,started to think how i could get a BOS real fast as i drove 3.5 hours to pickup with out,then the large customs girl eyed the paypal payment paper,good enough for her.then they look on the website for article value,they are lookin' for cheaters,as they want ever tax buck they can get !!!! i bought the dvd on tt setup and just need a stylus.will be puttin' on a Dyna-xx2mk2 to try her out. lets see what 7 times the $ gets ya :scratch:???? :D
Can't wait for your findings.
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:D thks,the cart will be here in a few days.i should be able to hear something for 7x the money :duh:.the Rega tables are kinda plain to look at.they spend a lot on their arm and power supply and platter. :D
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found the tone audio review on the p9 here done by jeff dorgay. gets a real good wrap there :D
http://www.sigsound.com/PDFs/RegaP9Apheta.pdf
I love the understated looks of my p25 and the p9. guess I'm not someone looking for a flashy show piece with heaps of bling ! hehe and as you say bigears means the money on the rega decks goes on the bits that count for performance rather than for "show" :)
look forward ot how you find it once you got it in the house !
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One of the easiest ways to make a cartridge alignment tool is to copy the basic idea of the AR tool. All you need to know is the overhang dimension and drill a very small hole that distance from the spindle hole center.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14942)
To use it just point the pointer end at the center of your arm's pivot and the see if the stylus fits in the hole. Of course you will have to align the front end of the cartridge to the front end of the shell or tone arm but this will get you very close.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14941)
Wayner
hmm, i think i'm gonna make one of those out of some wood or something when its time for me to set the stereo back up.
i've been lurking on ebay for the last month snagging deals on vinyl whenever they arose.
i have some good looking dolphy recordings, some good coltrane recordings and some still sealed tom waits too.
mule variations is one that i would like to find, some of those songs have some really fun imaging to listen too.
on a good system some of those songs will sound like they are recording in a big room in an old house with wood floors and tom is moving around the room as the song progresses...
i can't wait to do some real listening again.
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:D that spindle tool could be made at home if you had the measures ???? looks like an easy set-up tool .who sells those ?? :D
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:D that spindle tool could be made at home if you had the measures ???? looks like an easy set-up tool .who sells those ?? :D
(1) Get a popsicle stick or tongue depressor or something similar.
(2) drill a hole for the spindle.
(3) Use a caliper to carefully measure from center of spindle hole to correct overhang point and mark it.
(4) Drill a tiny lil hole for the overhang, or just tap in a depression with a skinny finishing nail.
(5) Place stick / depressor over spindle and point toward center of arm pivot.
(6) Adjust cartridge body in headshell till stylus drops into tiny overhang hole when arm is lowered.
Overhang is now set.
Pop a beer...sit back....and enjoy the toons!
:thumb:
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First time poster on the AC.
Thanks for the landing strip.
Enjoyed the comments on this thread.
I have a few TTs and am pretty satisfied with the varied performance they offer.
Thought I'd share or open discussion from my vantage point.
I'm in no way an audiophile because I lack the technical expertise to correctly match electronics, make proper tests and comparisons, and I may have some upper end hearing loss (perhaps due to the Heil tweeters on some ESS AMT-1s I used to like at moderate volumes...).
I am a radio programmer (host of several shows over the years), music collector, "sound designer" as in film music by profession, and perhaps aspiring audiohead. I worked at a HIFI shop for several months a year ago and learned a fair amount and have been following on that. I've always owned some decent rig, usually low end HIFI, beginning with my parents Dual, KLH, AR2ax system back home.
Jumping to the present so as not to absorb too much of anyone's time...
I currently have a SOTA Star Star Sapphire (600$ used at Berkeley's Sound Well) fitted with the SME 309 (250$ ebay) and Grado RP (300$) cart. I had the tonearm and cart set up by a pro for 350$. My phono section is a Musical Fidelity X-LPS. Perhaps the cartridge could use an upgrade at some point, I think about it; the phono section is decent but could be upgraded at some point. I have enjoyed the Grado and should have a few more years on it since I don't get to listen to vinyl as much as I'd like. (I've moved so many times, schlepping these 3500 LPs all over the country is getting tired, time to listen.) I recently got an Audio Note P2SE amp, upgrade from the Jolida 502B which I really liked. I haven't run any TT into the P2SE yet. (I have a garage getting converted into music room.) Speakers are Tannoy System 1000's. I think it's a great medium level system. CDs from a mediocre Yamaha player sound very good through the P2SE and Tannoys, certainly the finest playback chain I've owned. I've had the SOTA about 3 years and it took me a year to make it operational. (My system is always in the state of "aspirational", but it has also gotten to a nice plateau with the Audio Note amp.)
I have a secondary system I may have to unload, depending on finances this year, but don't want to. A Jolida 1501 (100w) amp (450$ audiogon) matched with Dali Grand Coupe speakers (850 audiogon). A great little powerhouse set. I have a set of Tara Labs Helix Prism cables I switch out to both systems currently (100$ audiogon). I could use another set of cables and some good interconnects. There's also a Musical Fidelity X-10v3 I sometimes throw in after a CD player. Oh, and I have a Cambridge Audio 540d dvd player for CD drive but it's currently set up with a crappy TV system for viewing netflix...
Other TTs I use are the ubiquitous Tech1200, mine is stock used from same Berkeley shop (350?) with Stanton 680 cartridges bought from KAB. I usually run the Tech into an older Japanese stereo receiver, a Yamaha or Sansui and might use in a radio type set-up with a Numark t-100 which I got for 25$ and plays records BACKWARDS, an effect I love. I use an old Radio Shack mixer to mix records on those. (I also have access to a low power FM transmitter which the 2TT system can be hooked into...) And then there are the 2 antique Edison players, a cylinder model and a diamond disc model I have collected just to be reminded where we come from...
I have peeled away a lot of unnecessary or lesser equipment over the years. While my system is in no way upper end, I would never spend the amounts of money some people do for fancy show off stereos and home theaters. The fun for me has been cobbling together a very decent low-HI-END system thanks to the healthy used market out there. A co-worker at the HIFI shop called us types "bottom feeders". So we collect the crumbs left in the wake of the affluent. Weird living in a culture where excess is so common or accepted, but I am happy for the craftspeople applying their skills to create great equipment that eventually can make its way into almost anyone's hands.
Anyway, I'd be happy to hear comments on my evolving audio set up(s) or anything else.
Some musical favorites: High Llamas "Beet, Maize and Corn" particularly good baby music (11 mos old boy), anything from the John Cage library, Toru Takemitsu film music, Dutch prog by Supersister, and Van Dyke Parks' "Song Cycle" of course.
Sincerely,
Owen
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I wonder how the p9 sounds compared to my p-5 with franks sub-platter and counterweight? Adding those two things really make a difference on my p-5. From top to bottom everything is clear and tight, almost sounds cd like but with a much bigger soundstage and more of a 3D sound. Also the overall tone is just beautiful.
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Having compared em, the P9 is still in a league by itself, but what
you have is a killer bargain compared to what a P9 costs!
That P5 and arm with Franks subplatter is probably the best bang
for the buck out there!
As for the next TT, nothing on the list, but if I win the lottery,
I know my next cartridge, the Lyra Olympos! In for review and
quite amazing....
Too rich for my budget though.
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:D the XX-2 should be here soon.battle of the tt will begin. :D see what's in them deep black grooves :lol:
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:D the P9 and the Dyna-xx2 are together and spinnin' the big black disc.first album,Tom Petty Wildflowers 180g.i am at a loss,if music can sound any better,you would need to be in the Lords house up in Heaven.WOW=WOW=WOW.the P9 is a sweet tt,the XX-2 complements it nicely to make a great team..... more to come.... :D :D :D :D
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I love it when a vinylphool is ecstatic...one really rarely never sees that with Redbook/CD playback :thumb:
Bring it on 2BE :)
John
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:D the P9 and the Dyna-xx2 are together and spinnin' the big black disc.first album,Tom Petty Wildflowers 180g.i am at a loss,if music can sound any better,you would need to be in the Lords house up in Heaven.WOW=WOW=WOW.the P9 is a sweet tt,the XX-2 complements it nicely to make a great team..... more to come.... :D :D :D :D
I've heard that exact combination and it is SWEET! Enjoy! :drool: :thumb:
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:D many thks guys, picked up 700 albums in the last few months,got some listening to do.cd's are real nice for ease of use,records take work. :duh: but of course to some they are worth the extra mile.the music is more relaxed and flows a little better.you can't beat the 180g records.i still am after a Raven from Thomas the master tt builder.gotta hear that deck,it is called a keeper by all.the Rega tables are simply a good buy,too simple. ya gotta like it :lol: :D :D
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So how does the P9 compare to your other tables?
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Hi Guys,
I have been using a Bluenote Piccolo turntable for about 4 years. I've had a number of problems and had to replace the following components:
Motor
Tonearm support
The turntable sounded much better than a rega 3 that I had. The issues have been rectified by Bluenote and I found there customer support to be really good. I also have a bluenote phonostage which is very good.
Regards
Rod
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I have owned Oracle tts since the 1980s buying my present Delphi III about 15 years ago with a SME IV tonearm. Being an Oracle, its motor tended to go off speed especially when I moved to Europe and was using it with a step-up transformer. When it began to spin wildly, I took it to a local stereo shop whose technician overhauled it, hard wired the motor to the 12 volt converter and changed the voltage to 230. He completely transformed the tt which has behaved and sounded great ever since, like an Oracle should. If I were to buy a "next" tt, I would probably go for a Delphi V although they cost much more here in Europe than in North America. But there is no more beautiful table and few that sound as good.
Cheers, John
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My Rega P25 has been reloaded :D
got an email this morning from james who loaded and set it up for me. he described its sounds in word "awesome" ! and posted some pics of my TT on his website :)
http://www.drhifihousecalls.com.au/Hi-Fi/Rega%20P25%20Reloaded/Rega%20P25.htm
cant wait to head down to have a listen :)