[-Richard-]

I have been listening to my Signature 70 without a tube preamp and as my previous posts suggest
I have found it is very satisfying.

However, in a recent conversation with Vinnie, I mentioned that my tube preamp was finally burning-in
and he urged me to try it once again with my Signature 70 to see what my latest impression was.

I have been listening recently to my Korneff 45 SET so I am extremely aware of what the 45 tube
is bringing to the sonic character of the music.

Vinnie suggested I leave the volume dials of the Signature 70's built-in preamplifiers to the
12 o'clock position... I realized I had not actually done this the last time I tried it with my tube
preamp... although I know longer remember what position I used at that time.

I set everything up and sat down to listen to the music.

Suddenly I realized why Vinnie has designed his own tube preamp to go with his new Signature
series of amplifiers... I was amazed!!!!

Here is what I am hearing: a stunningly holographic 3-Dimensional sense of ambient space around
the instruments and the actual space where the music was recorded fulling up my listening room,
as if the entire space of the recording is being transfered along with the music... a much richer
tonal harmonic presentation... deep bass and shimmering high's... and a palpable realistic
immediacy to the human voice that is extremely seductive and totally beguiling.

Let me talk about the voice for a moment. With my cheapy Pioneer "universal" player... which is
admittedly not the last word in refinement or sophistication, but which has a noticeably strong
dynamic charge to its presentation, the voice is projected into the room ahead of the instruments
in a way that both Deborah and I find very very exciting... it is hard to explain this effect...
but it gives the voice a slightly plumper, richer more 3-Dimensional "presence"... perhaps the
word surreal... more potent than real... comes close to what we are hearing... but the effect is
stunning... so much so that I currently have no interest in going back to my Korneff.

Whatever I found that was "unique" about my 45 SET amp is no longer unique... the combination
of the Signature 70 with my not-even-fully-burned-in tube preamp is stunning and very seductive...
in exactly the way that the best SET's are known to create... but with even more sonic "flare".

I can only imagine what Vinnie's new Isabella along with the new Signature amps sound like
given what I am hearing now.

If anyone out there is interested in hearing a fabulous 3-Dimensional highly seductive sound
with ripe harmonic tonalities that is usually associated with the best tubed SET amplifiers,
but with even more of a "presence"... more dynamic and textural thrills... you will have it
with this combination.

Please let me mention that I am using a DIY Open Baffle speaker design with phase plugs
I inserted into my B200's... I only mention this because the match of the Signature 70 with
my tube preamp and the Open Baffle speakers is pure sexual synergy... a love affair!!!
So I imagine that you will need speakers that are designed to allow what the magic (there is no
other word for it) of what the Signature 70's and a really good tubed preamp can create.

It took 2 months for my tube preamp to begin to burn-in... and that is what has made such a
startling difference in what I am now hearing.

I am saving my money for the Signature 70 upgrade... meanwhile I can't stop listening to this
combination... and please note that a really good tube preamp is mandatory here... I tried the
Signature 70 with another tubed preamp that sounded very very good but my own tube preamp
brings more textural and harmonic complexity and more detail to the music and voice.

World Class sound for a very modest sum.

The Signature 70 is proving to have talents that are far beyond my own expectations.

Nice going Vinnie. Thanks for giving me a push to listen again.

Now I know what so many Red Wine owners have been saying for months... and why you are working
so hard to create a tube preamp that will be the last word in synergy with the Signature series of amplifiers.

The audio world is in for some real surprises!!!!

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[RoadTripper]

Remind us again what tubed pre-amp you are using. Thanks

[miklorsmith]

The Lamm LL2 Deluxe with the Signatures is an incredible combination - I fully agree Richard (as usual).

[RoadTripper]

So, Richard's pre == Lamm LL2 Deluxe???

[-Richard-]

Hi Seminarian (a student in a theological seminary) ~

I am using Lloyd Peppard's Magic 5B SE Triplex Line Preamplifier... please keep in mind that this
has been substantially modified by Lloyd from his "standard" original offering.

In my conversations with Vinnie it is clear to me that he is quite aware of the synergy issues in
developing his own tube preamp... the Isabella... that would optimize the potential
of the Signature 70.2 to extract every sonic thrill it is capable of. Vinnie knows that this next
update is going to be a leap in refinement and sophistication.

My reason in posting this latest impressions is to share with everyone my own excitement...
however belatedly I am coming to understand the Signature 70's sonic potential with a well
designed tube preamp. Several tube preamps have been mentioned in this thread... I have
no doubt each of them is fantastic with the right speakers.

Hi Miklorsmith ~

The Lamm LL2 Deluxe with the Signatures is an incredible combination...

To anyone who follows the very upper atmosphere of audio's ethereal ethers... that luminous
air where the gods live... the name Lamm is at the very top of mount Parnassus.

Knowing your impeccable research talents... legendary in these parts... I can only imagine what
you are hearing, Miklorsmith... nice work!!!!!!!

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[miklorsmith]

Too kind, sir!   

There are many reports of all manner of tubed preamps with the Signature amps.  I don't think any have been bad, and most are glowing (heh).  My Lamm is the baby one and represents an unreal deal used (thanks, Grant!)

My main point is that lots of tubed pre's have been used with great success with these amps - a true testament to their seductive sound.

[-Richard-]

Hi Miklorsmith ~

Everyone who reads these threads and who lingers on this forum knows that your writing and
listening skills are impeccable.

I think that the time has come for everyone to carefully rethink their speaker choices...
the Signature 70 amplifier... and I am certain the newest iteration of Vinnie's Signature series
raises the level of sophistication and resolution even higher... are so good with a well-designed
tube preamplifier... that everyone who is thinking of purchasing one... or the combination of the
Signature 70.2 with the Isabella (when they become available) should be thinking of which speakers
will allow the music to flow unimpeded with the detail and harmonics and textures intact. Speakers
that can allow all the sensual seductive qualities of the voice to come through... and that incredibly
dynamic presentation that releases the music as if falling with intense velocity from the sky.

The usual speakers will not due... because what I am hearing has every quality we normally associate
with the best SET low watt amplifiers with a new urgency and drive... a new more powerful
presence that spills into your room like fire... with a liquidity that is astonishing.

A speaker that can get out of the way of all of that and let it come through with no resistance...
no holding it back in any way.

I am just thinking out loud here... just sharing some insights with everyone.

Incidentally... the bass I am hearing... more than that... the mid-bass... is so fully-fleshed out
and articulate that I have no wish right now to run after a bass driver. If the Signature 70.2
really goes deeper in the bass that will be a revelation to hear.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Richard,

Thank you for your post regarding the use of a good tubed preamp in front of your Signature 70s!  It is people like you (and there have been many others) who helped me open my mind to this and realize how much unleashed potential there is with RWA products. 

The Isabella is going to be the piece that takes things to a whole new level with the Signature 30.2 and 70.2, but will also be a fine match with LOTS of different amps and systems out there! 

I am saving my money for the Signature 70 upgrade... meanwhile I can't stop listening to this combination... and please note that a really good tube preamp is mandatory here... I tried the Signature 70 with another tubed preamp that sounded very very good but my own tube preamp brings more textural and harmonic complexity and more detail to the music and voice.

World Class sound for a very modest sum.

The partial upgrade to the 70.2 boards is going to really awaken your senses!  Some people ask me questions along the lines of "with the Isabella (or some other tube preamp), is the 30.2 or 70.2 upgrade too much of a good thing?"  "Too warm, too syrupy, too tubey?"   The answer I give every time is NO... it just gets A LOT better with the 30.2 and 70.2 upgrades and there are NO trade-offs, no compromises, just more seductive sound that will pull you into the music! 

Thanks again!

Vinnie

[-Richard-]

Hi Vinnie ~

I am very excited about what I am hearing with the Signature 70 and a well executed tube preamp...
I can only imagine how your more finely tuned and more completely realized Signature 70.2 and
Isabella will play music together!!!!

Last night it occurred to me while Deborah and I were listening to a particular CD with female
voices... a compilation of African "pop" tunes that was recorded about 15 years ago... that there
was something very different in the presentation... then I suddenly realized that the music was
floating over an extremely quiet background that cast the voices and instruments in high relief...
that allowed the music to emerge more fully out of the recording in a thoroughly 3-Dimensional
perspective... I suspect that is the result of the Signature 70's clean and stable battery power
at work. The effect is not subtle... and I think it is contributing enormously to the entire effect
of the fully shaped holographic sound we are hearing.

It is interesting that the internet and your forum presence on AC has allowed you to have a
very intimate relationship with your client audience and audio friends... and because of your
openness and ability to listen and gain insights from everyones feedback you have created a kind
of collaboration with us that helps to propel the development of your products forward at a
remarkable speed. With your genius for design you make all these innovations look very easy.

The greatest good luck to you Vinnie in all of your latest explorations.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[ZLS]

   What Richard said. 

[Vinnie R.]

Thank you, Richard and ZLS!

Here is a pic of the new Red Wine Audio Signature 70.2 Monoblock Amplifier  aa



The Signature 30.2 stereo amplifier w/o volume control looks exactly like this, but says "30.2" on the bottom 

Thanks again,

Vinnie

[tanchiro58]

Vinnie,

How much do they cost? What are the differences between 70.2 and 30.2? What speakers are they matched with? Sorry for the questions of a newbie? Thanks for the SLA/SMART module battery charger for my Altmann Attraction DAC and BYOB amp. I like it a lot.

Regards,
Tan

[Vinnie R.]

Vinnie,

How much do they cost? What are the differences between 70.2 and 30.2? What speakers are they matched with? Sorry for the questions of a newbie? Thanks for the SLA/SMART module battery charger for my Altmann Attraction DAC and BYOB amp. I like it a lot.

Regards,
Tan

Hi Tan,

The Signature 30.2 is a stereo amplifier (offered as a power amp or "integrated" with built-in remote volume control stepped attenuator).  It provides a very clean 30 watts RMS per channel into 8-ohms. 

The Signature 70.2 are monoblocks and offer twice the output current and complete isolation between channels as they are separate units, ran from their own dedicated battery supply.  They also offer 30 watts RMS per channel into 8-ohm, but 70 watts RMS into 4 ohms. 

Both models work very well with many speakers.  In general, speakers in the 86dB effciency range and higher, and with a nominal impedance range of 4 to 16 ohms are a good match.

The Signature 30.2 webpage will be added to the Red Wine Audio website (www.redwineaudio.com) any day now, shortly followed by the Signature 70.2 webpage.

The "icing on the cake" will be the Isabella... an SLA battery powered tube preamp with built-in non-oversampling dac.  Preliminary details can be found here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=45353.0

I hope to have this in production later next month 

Thanks for the SLA/SMART module battery charger for my Altmann Attraction DAC and BYOB amp. I like it a lot.

Glad to hear this!  I'm sure your wife prefers this custom unit vs. the large battery in the living room.      Enjoy!

Vinnie

[tanchiro58]

Glad to hear this!  I'm sure your wife prefers this custom unit vs. the large battery in the living room.  Mr. Green    Enjoy!

Vinnie,

My wife does not care the look as long as the music makes her sing. One thing I have concerned that if you use the stock cords (2) from the charger to the DAC and BYOB amp the sound was very stiff and lean. I had to replace with the high quality cables which make my system more musical and warmer. I wonder if I can replace the beefy XLR connectors instead of the stock one would the XLRs make the sound even better? Thanks.

Regards,
Tan

[JeffB]

This thread brings up interesting questions to me.
One way to look at sound quality is to realize that every piece of equipment adds distortion.
If you think about the output of the DAC being as good as it gets, then the sound only gets worse from there.
Rather than thinking about things improving the sound, what is really of concern is what degrades sound the least.
So on first thought it would seem that adding a preamp would increase distortion
Somehow the preamp and amp together must create less distortion than a volume control and amp.

The only explanation that I have ever heard for the preamp involves impedance matching.
However, it seems that under many circumstances the impedances involved would seem to work perfectly well with passive preamps.
In the case of the Clari-t (minus volume control) that I own, Vinnie stated that its input impedance is 120KOhm.  This would seem ideal for working with a passive preamp. 

So, I have been curious about how important the impedance matching really is.  For a while, I borrowed an old PS-Audio preamp from a friend.  This preamp is kind of unique in that it has both a passive circuit and an active circuit (no tubes).  I have had the unit in front of the Clari-t and played around with both settings quite extensively and the sound difference is very minimal.  There is a difference, but the active stage does not bring a bunch of extra harmonic tone with it.  So I have often figured that a preamp would not really provide any benefit to me.  Furthermore I have even run my CD player straight into the Clari-t without anything in front.  (The Eagles, Hell Freezes Over is useful for this as the level of the DVD is way down.  It might not be possible to do this otherwise.)  Again, though the change in sound was minimal.

However, I also own a JVC-RXD201 class D receiver (Digital/hybrid whatever).   The JVC does bring about some extra tonal harmonic richness.  I can relate a little bit to what Richard says after listening to this receiver.  It definitely has some elements of tonality and recording environment echoes that the Clari-t seems to completely miss.  On the other hand the JVC seems to add some kind of distortion.  I can't really put it into audio words, but I can relate to it visually.  It is like looking at a TV with reflective glass in front of it.  It is kind of like a plasma, but the glare off the glass obscures the scene.  It is strange how it can both bring about additional good detail that the Clari-t seems to lack and yet add additional distortion.  Unfortunately for the JVC, the distortion outweighs the good and I generally prefer to listen to the Clari-t.

So I figure the JVC probably has a preamp stage.  This opens up the possibility that putting a tube preamp in front of the Clari-t could bring about this harmonic richness.  It is apparently present in the output of the DAC.  However, the PS-Audio didn't do it and DVD player straight to Clari-t didn't do it.

There is another idea that I have heard at Decware.  Decware makes a product called the Z-box.  The basic notion is that most DACs use opamps and that the output of these opamps is way too weak to drive downstream electronics.  Decware claims the use of the Z-box will make almost any CD player sound better.  However, Decware still recommends a preamp in addition to the Z-box.  So this leaves me really confused.  At this point, the Z-box is driving only the interconnect to the preamp.  Surely an opamp can drive a cable.

So I am stuck with the mystery.  Is it impedance?  Is it lack of drive from the DAC?  Is it really something unique to tubes preamps and not solid state preamps?  Can I really get extra tone out of the Clari-t?

I have been really tempted to get a Panasonic receiver to run the whole chain digitally, so that I can forget about all this impedance/drive stuff.
However, the Panasonic that I have heard hooked up to the cheap surround speakers never impressed me.  Perhaps it is the cheap speakers.  However, many mention a forward sound to them and I hear this on the cheap speakers and it is part of what I object to.

I guess I will just have to try some products on a 30-day trial bases.

[miklorsmith]

I owned two Clari-Ts and preferred them greatly with the Modwright 9.0SE I had then.  IMO they are "chilly" by themselves but cotton beautifully to tubes.

Why is this?  Well, probably a subject for another thread.  I don't think you'll find agreement on any aspect of this question, though I think it's more than impedance matching.
Great post!

[Vinnie R.]

If you think about the output of the DAC being as good as it gets, then the sound only gets worse from there.
Rather than thinking about things improving the sound, what is really of concern is what degrades sound the least.
So on first thought it would seem that adding a preamp would increase distortion
Somehow the preamp and amp together must create less distortion than a volume control and amp.

Hi Jeff,

This is a thought-provoking post... thank you.  I think there are at least two ways to look at it  :

1) Exactly what you stated above... the analog output of the source is as good as pure as it gets and the sound can only get worse from there from increased distortion from passing to the next stage, and the stage after that, etc.

2) Adding an active preamp to the signal path will "flavor the sound" in certain ways.  With tubes, you can get tube distortion, which is not necessarily clipping or nasty sounding.  I'm talking about even-order harmonics that some like as they like how the sound gains more richness, more body, fullness, dimensionality, etc.  Even if tubes are not used, some prefer putting an active preamp (solid state) in the signal path because it boosts the voltage and/or current of the signal from the source and allows an amplifier to see a signal from a lower output impedance (not always the case, but it is usually the case). 

In general, I think some say the a preamp adds more life to the music.  Others say that a preamp will take away from the purity of the signal and thus cause more harm than good. 

I say there is no correct answer... it depends on the rest of your system (what source, what amp, what speakers, what room, what kind of music) and it depends on you, the listener who likes the music to sound a certain way and that might be different than the next person. 

And then there is another case that I like to believe it kind of separate from the two above.  This is the case where you need an active preamp in your system no matter if you like it or not:

3) Your source + passive volume control + amp does not have enough gain.  In other words, even at max volume on the passive volume control, the speakers do not get loud enough.  The amp is not clipping, the speakers are not being driven to max, but you simply cannot go louder unless the input signal into the amp is larger.  If you love your source, amp and speakers but you want to be able to go louder, in this case a can provide the voltage gain required to allow your amp deliver max RMS power. 

However, it seems that under many circumstances the impedances involved would seem to work perfectly well with passive preamps.  In the case of the Clari-t (minus volume control) that I own, Vinnie stated that its input impedance is 120KOhm.  This would seem ideal for working with a passive preamp.

This is a good point.  There are plenty of circumstances where the matching of a source + passive "preamp" and power amp will work very well.  I'm sure there are also plenty of circumstances where a good quality preamp can add to the listening experience... that "flavor" that I described above. 

Again, there is no correct way.  YOU need to find what is the best for you.

I have been really tempted to get a Panasonic receiver to run the whole chain digitally, so that I can forget about all this impedance/drive stuff.  However, the Panasonic that I have heard hooked up to the cheap surround speakers never impressed me.  Perhaps it is the cheap speakers.  However, many mention a forward sound to them and I hear this on the cheap speakers and it is part of what I object to.

Well, I'm sure you know that just because you are keeping everything in the digital domain does not mean it is going to sound better.  Forgetting about "impedance stuff" does not mean the road to simplicity and sonic nirvana.    Perhaps on the outside it seems like a simple thing... send digital output of source into amp and then connect amp to speakers... but on the INSIDE, there are many things going on that WILL have a big effect on the sound!   

Great discussion!

Vinnie

[DaveC113]

I just added a tube pre (Anthem Pre1) to my system, and it has made a huge improvement. I am using an Audio Alchemy DTI/DAC combo, Trends T-amp running on an Optima w/ stiffening caps, and Omega XRS speakers. Previously I was using an Adcom GFP-565 Preamp, which didn't add much at all to the sound. I doubt most people could tell a difference if it was in the chain or not. The system was good, but was a bit thin and sometimes parts of the soundstage seemed a little recessed when they should have been presented farther forward. The tube pre added texture, weight and presence to the mix, and the soundstaging issue went away. Tone, dynamics and bass quality all improved considerably. The music is now sometimes shockingly realistic, at least to me. I am happy    The Anthem Pre1 I got has very low distortion numbers, so its not adding audible 2nd order harmonics to the mix... I'm not sure exactly what its doing, but it is a clear improvement. 


I think the results will be system dependant, and also related to personal preference. This is where I think analysis in terms of impedence and distortion becomes less useful because you are trying to quantify a subjective experience. Not to say the numbers aren't a useful guide if you can relate them to your preferences, but they don't tell the whole story. I think other systems I have heard may not benefit like my system did. There may be an especially good synergy that happens with tube pres combined with digital amps 

I really like the approach the RWA pre/amp combo is taking   

Dave 

[richs]

This thread has convinced me I want to try a tubed pre with my Sig 30.  I think I'm going to go with the Apollo from Promitheus (the Isabella is over my price range right now and I already have a dac I like).    The Apollo can be wired for either 6 or 12 db of gain, and I'm trying to decide which to go with.

I have 88 db Gallo Ref 3.1 speakers (4-8 ohms).  Given the 30 watts of the Sig 30, by my calculations they can product about 96 db at my listening position (10 ft from the speakers).  Since I would like to be able to get unrestrcted peaks or 105 db, I'm thinking I should go with the 12 db of gain. I don't know if there is a downside with having this much gain in the pre.

Can anyone weigh in (Vinnie???) with what the prefered gain would be be to make this pre mate well with the Sig 30 and Gallos?

Thanks in advance.

Rich

[-Richard-]

Hi richs ~

Of course Vinnie is the right person to answer your question about what preamplifier gain makes the
most sense in your particular system.

However let me share my own experience in the hope it might shed some light on this important
question.

I am using Lloyd Peppard's Magic 5 tube SET preamplifier... it has several options that are
interesting... you have 2 gains for your output... 10 and 20db gain... and 2 circuits with 2 different
sets of output tubes... one has more "perceived" gain (inherently)... and the other less
"perceived" gain.

I also used a modified T99 preamplifier from Consonance with my Signature 70, which
has a robust gain of 24db.

The 24db gain of the T99 created a powerfully pulsating dynamic sound with the Sig 70...
The Magic 5 using the 20db gain option is almost as dynamic but more refined... more textural
complexity is heard. I also have the option to adjust the "gain" of each channel with "balance"
dials.

What I have found is that a bit more gain is helpful in many recordings that need a more dynamic
presentation to achieve a life-like presence... however too much gain seems to overpower the
inner detail potential of the preamplifier to render subtle shadings convincingly.

Your speakers are not terribly sensitive being in the 88db range... I suspect they could use the
12db of gain in your preamplifier... I am using OB drivers in the 96db range.

Also the question of "distortion" has been raised here... any question that sensitizes us to what
exactly we are hearing from our audio systems is a very important portal to understanding more
deeply what our intentions are in creating a system to begin with.

I think it helps to know what you want to hear from your system... now that sounds like I am putting
the cart in front of the horse... after all... how do you know what you want to hear until you hear it!!!

And that is precisely the value in experimenting... in exploring various options that are offered in the
field of audio... it is that "journey" of discovering what is potentially possible in the way of creating
life-like music in ones home that is so exciting to me... because once you get close to hearing that
in your home... something in music begins to have a life that speaks directly to the emotions...
the music transcends all the "machines" and appliances that we are using and lifts itself into an
entirely different dimension of perception... it is perceived as being alive!!!!! and in that way it
has the potential to affect us on a very deep level. A level we humans seem to need... like we
need sunshine on our face... or the sound and feel of the wind blowing in the trees... or the need
to see and hear the clear running water of a stream. Music has the capacity to affirm that we
are alive and capable of profound feeling. It moves us.

So it is important to ask ourselves a great many questions regarding our gear and what we think
we are hearing... but it is more important to grasp what it is that brings that music to life for us...
and that takes time and experimentation and careful listening... and being able to rely on ones
own judgment... because the audio world is riddled with a great deal of misinformation.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard