AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Tube-o-phile Circle => Topic started by: jaylevine on 19 Sep 2018, 11:35 am
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Hi,
I have a Bob Latino VTA 120 amp with the stock driver tubes. Overall love the amp, but after a year of ownership am getting the 'tube rolling' bug.
Have already swapped out the output tubes with KT88s--overall effect was not that noticeable if at all (from stock 6550s).
I'm now looking for recommendations for the driver board, in particular the center tube which I understand to be the tube most affecting the sound.
I'm looking for a version of this tube that is reliable, affordable (under $50 USD) and emphasizes high end 'details/clarity' vs 'sweetness and mellowness'. I'm fairly limited in my upper range hearing so I tend to favor tube and SS amps that emphasize transparency and detail, (or even over emphasize those characteristics a bit) vs neutrality and balance.
Thoughts?
Thanks--Jay
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Sylvania 12AU7WA is what you're looking for. The WA is the designation used for mil spec tubes which were built to be rugged and reliable. I also find them to have the sound you're looking for.
My suggestion is to find a NOS tube which should come in a plain white box with the federal stock number as well as other information. I have a couple I bought as NOS and this seemed reliable information as the box had obviously never been opened.
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Sylvania is a good rec. I also like the Siemens 12au7 for very good detail retrieval.
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Find you a good long plate Valvo.
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Tubemonger has an extensive stock of NOS 12AU7/ECC82. Check out his site. ( Tubemonger.com) Should be able to find something within your budget. No affiliation, just a satisfied customer for years.
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Shuguang 12AU7 is the best low cost tube I've heard. No vintage warmth or smear. Clear, strong, detailed, good bass and smooth extended treble. I used them 10 years ago, they came as standard tubes with Eastern Electric MiniMax preamp. I liked them much more than the many vintage tubes I tried. No telling if the new ones are still as good as those old ones, but cheap enough to try. Find them on EBay.
I love Gold Lion tubes for their great sound and reliability. I personally would just get those and be done, but they are over your stated budget at $45 each.
Have fun rolling!
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You might consider the JJ ECC802S and Tube Depot can test and match them (if you need pairs) very thoroughly. No affiliation with TD other than good experiences.
Cryoset tubes has them too and cryo'd but no matching for some reason.
The Tube Store has them and offers matching but no cryo.
The ECC 802-S is a military version that is ruggedized and designed for low noise. Very linear, smooth mids and extended top-end with bangin' tight bass. This is my fav tube for a 12AU7.
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Just to add more confusion......
I ordered a pair for my LTA MZ2 preamp.
Nothing to complain about
https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/brimar-cv4003-12au7
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Kevin is a great source for tubes. He's picky about what he sells and stands behind it. I haven't bought any tubes fron Upscale because I usually find the same tube elsewhere for a few bucks less.
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Hi,
I have a Bob Latino VTA 120 amp with the stock driver tubes. Overall love the amp, but after a year of ownership am getting the 'tube rolling' bug.
Have already swapped out the output tubes with KT88s--overall effect was not that noticeable if at all (from stock 6550s).
I'm now looking for recommendations for the driver board, in particular the center tube which I understand to be the tube most affecting the sound.
I'm looking for a version of this tube that is reliable, affordable (under $50 USD) and emphasizes high end 'details/clarity' vs 'sweetness and mellowness'. I'm fairly limited in my upper range hearing so I tend to favor tube and SS amps that emphasize transparency and detail, (or even over emphasize those characteristics a bit) vs neutrality and balance.
Thoughts?
Thanks--Jay
So far I have the following suggestions (including some input from another board):
Sylvania 12AU7WA
JJ ECC802S
Tung Sol 12AU7
Shuguang 12AU7
Siemens 12au7
BRIMAR CV4003 / 12AU7
Gold Lion ECC82 / 12AU7
and several others.....
Embarrassment of riches I guess, but difficult to make an informed choice with so many options.
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Brimar and Tung Sol will lean toward warm-ish, I'd skip them based on your initial post. JJ's too. The Sylvania, Siemens and Gold Lion will lean toward greater clarity and dynamics. I've not heard the Shuguang 12au7s.
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Brimar and Tung Sol will lean toward warm-ish, I'd skip them based on your initial post. JJ's too. The Sylvania, Siemens and Gold Lion will lean toward greater clarity and dynamics. I've not heard the Shuguang 12au7s.
Thanks. I am going to run this by the person I purchase my tubes from re: he is recommending the Tung Sols (he is a well respected supplier and I generally would go with his suggestion).
If he shares your POV on this I am sure he will gladly supply with with one of the alternatives.
Best--Jay
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Kevin is a great source for tubes. He's picky about what he sells and stands behind it. I haven't bought any tubes fron Upscale because I usually find the same tube elsewhere for a few bucks less.
I'd be wary of placing 100% trust in him. There is a long thread in another forum where numerous people have related experiences where tubes were misrepresented by that company. I experienced this too some years ago when I was sold a set of relabeled tubes where Kevin personally told me that they might be Siemens. When received it took me all of about 2 seconds to recognize them as Sovteks. No doubt, no question. They were okay tubes but not at all what I was told.
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Thanks. I am going to run this by the person I purchase my tubes from re: he is recommending the Tung Sols (he is a well respected supplier and I generally would go with his suggestion).
If he shares your POV on this I am sure he will gladly supply with with one of the alternatives.
Best--Jay
Tung Sols IME are slightly warm, but the one thing they do that other tubes have a hard time matching is that they sound big. Which is pretty darn cool. I'd recommend trying some Tung Sols regardless of what other tubes you end up with. Vintage Tung Sols, not new production Tung Sols. I find that vintage Tung Sols are my favorite brand, regardless of tube type.
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Tung Sols IME are slightly warm, but the one thing they do that other tubes have a hard time matching is that they sound big. Which is pretty darn cool. I'd recommend trying some Tung Sols regardless of what other tubes you end up with. Vintage Tung Sols, not new production Tung Sols. I find that vintage Tung Sols are my favorite brand, regardless of tube type.
That is what I'm going to do. To be honest, there is such a range of opinion with little consensus (or even a simple majority) that I guess I'm stuck rolling several over the course of the next year and storing the also-rans as back ups.
Sometimes too much choice can be frustrating (I know, 1st world problems). :|
Thanks to all for the input--I'll report back later this year after putting some hours into my final choice.
Jay
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BTW, I have the Bob Latino STA 70 amp and it responds quite well to tube rolling. Mine has the octal front board though.
Once you get the new tube, run it in and get familiar with it, then after that you might try switching between the 6550s and KT88s again. You're preferences may change with a different input tube.
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The Sylvania 12AU7 is a very nice tube and cheap. Raytheon black plates are great too. Plenty on ebay usually. GE 5814 are also quite nice. I have the JJ long and short plates and a few other new production tubes. The vintage ones a step up IMO.
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The Sylvania 12AU7 is a very nice tube and cheap. Raytheon black plates are great too. Plenty on ebay usually. GE 5814 are also quite nice. I have the JJ long and short plates and a few other new production tubes. The vintage ones a step up IMO.
Pretty sure Bob Latino ships the VTA 120 with Sylvania 12AU7s (just checked--yup, that is what I'm running now).
To be honest, nothing wrong at all with the way my unit sounds today, just been a year with the stock driver tubes and I'm feeling the urge to experiment!
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Yeah, if you already have Sylvanias, then vintage Tung Sols are good, and I 2nd the Raytheon rec (and the Siemens rec). All are great tubes with tremendous amounts of clarity.
I wish I liked GE tubes more, but they are always just sort of a middle-of-the-road tube IME. "Good" in every category, but only good, never great.
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Here's a chart of 12au7s from a tube dealer site.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184625)
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I see Audio by VanAlstine https://avahifi.com/collections/used-demo-and-quick-ship/products/vacuum-tubes?variant=5831233110046 (https://avahifi.com/collections/used-demo-and-quick-ship/products/vacuum-tubes?variant=5831233110046) sells a matched set of two 12AU7/EC882 for $35 plus shipping. Not sure if these are JJ or not.
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:duh:
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I rolled several tubes in the Bob Latino/VTA ST120 and VTA Mark III mono blocks. Based on my experiences the RCA Clear Top is the one that fits your description. It's also plentiful and inexpensive.
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Blanket tube recommendations are a waste of time. A tube which offers certain sonic characteristics in one piece of equipment may perform very differently in another where its operating parameters are very different. The only way to know what is going to sound best is to try out various tubes and draw your own conclusions! I've known many who spent a fortune because they read that a tube with a particular getter shape sounds much better than one with a differently shaped getter only to be very disappointed. And certainly don't take the word of any tube sellers as their motivation may not be in your best interests. My views are based on decades of experience...
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Blanket tube recommendations are a waste of time. A tube which offers certain sonic characteristics in one piece of equipment may perform very differently in another where its operating parameters are very different. The only way to know what is going to sound best is to try out various tubes and draw your own conclusions! I've known many who spent a fortune because they read that a tube with a particular getter shape sounds much better than one with a differently shaped getter only to be very disappointed. And certainly don't take the word of any tube sellers as their motivation may not be in your best interests. My views are based on decades of experience...
+1
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Blanket tube recommendations are a waste of time. A tube which offers certain sonic characteristics in one piece of equipment may perform very differently in another where its operating parameters are very different. The only way to know what is going to sound best is to try out various tubes and draw your own conclusions! I've known many who spent a fortune because they read that a tube with a particular getter shape sounds much better than one with a differently shaped getter only to be very disappointed. And certainly don't take the word of any tube sellers as their motivation may not be in your best interests. My views are based on decades of experience...
Not that I don't agree 100% with your comment. However, the comments in my reply to the OP are based on the exact same amp/circuit he is asking about. Also, note that I didn't make a recommendation. I shared my experience.
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I have 3 each NOS Sylvania 12BH7A that were recommended for a 12AU7 replacements that I am not going to keep because I am going to sell the gear that I was going to use it in got them from Tube Depot at $30 each if interested:
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/12bh7a
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Also have a pair of RCA and one Philco
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Also have a pair of RCA and one Philco
Thanks for the offer but will pass re: ordered a set of Tung-Sol late yesterday and will try those out for a while to see how they compare to my stock Syv 12au7s
Jay
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Not that I don't agree 100% with your comment. However, the comments in my reply to the OP are based on the exact same amp/circuit he is asking about. Also, note that I didn't make a recommendation. I shared my experience.
My comments were intended as a general statement. Of course, since you have the same amp, your impressions and experiences have greater validity. Yet, there are so many other factors which need to be considered. For example, some characteristics may be evident at one listening level, but not at another or with types of music which the OP doesn't listen to; some speakers will reveal certain characteristics which others will not; room acoustics may mask or enhance one thing or another; the OP's hearing is uniquely his own and is not going to be the same as anyone else's. You get my point. So, I reiterate what I said above- one must audition tubes, components, cables, and so on in their own system and use their own ears to determine what is most pleasing. After all, does anything else matter?
Thanks for the offer but will pass re: ordered a set of Tung-Sol late yesterday and will try those out for a while to see how they compare to my stock Syv 12au7s
Jay
That's the way to do it!
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Blanket tube recommendations are a waste of time. A tube which offers certain sonic characteristics in one piece of equipment may perform very differently in another where its operating parameters are very ....
Not trying to derail the thread but come on, there are of course some blanket recommendations. With small signal tubes, Mullard tend to be rich and smooth, and Telefunken tend to be clear and articulate. The OP was looking for a recommendation on the clear and articulate side and nobody suggested Mullard. Saved him the money/time of trying them. If he does try them and likes them, it won't be because they're clear and articulate in his system.
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i really like Mullard CV4003 Box plates tubes. sounds great!
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I would suggest RCA clear tops if you must spend on NOS. Alternatively there is nothing wrong with JJ ECC82S (the short plate version). Both have well extended treble without being too warm. And yes, the Chinese 12AU7 tubes can sound decent if you can find quiet ones. The JJ ECC802 (long plate) I do not recommend as they tend to be very microphonic (plus they are warm, not bright sounding). Some of the military versions of the 12AU7 are nice sounding, such as the 5814A and they are VERY well made; Kevin Deal has good ones normally.
I am not sure how much change you expect, but it will be quite small and is like adding a little seasoning to your food. It is not night and day and will most likely not compensate for hearing roll off. You may want to think about EQ of some kind.
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This kind of a suggestion might be totally useless but when I was rolling the usual suspects in my Atma-Sphere MP-3 I always seemed to come back to the Westinghouse carbon plate 12AU7s. Very clear and well-balanced from what I can remember. Strangely enough, I often preferred the E80CC w/pinched waist & gold pins over any other tube in that position, but it probably doesn't even belong there. :duh:
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Funny, I followed Ralph Karsten's recommendation to try RCA clear tops in my Atma-Sphere MP-3 and found them in my system to be the better choice compared to NOS Mullard, Cifte and Radiotechnique. In addition, the clear tops were the least expensive! However, I never tried the Westinghouse.