[oneinthepipe]

After two more days of listening to the HT2-TL, I have some more thoughts.

Many ST owners or prospective owners, myself included, want or wanted to compare the HT2-TL to the ST and particularly the ST RT, since both speakers are an MTM design with the same tweeter.  Additionally, both speakers have MK QWTL type cabinets, and with the HT2-TL's black baffle, the speakers appear remarkably similar, seemingly moving the HT2-TL in to the role as an ST RT on steroids rather than an HT2 with a TL cabinet. 

I have never heard the HT2 (or the HT3), but the differences between the HT2-TL and the ST RT, based on my memory of the ST RT, and the way that the HT2-TL interacts with my room, are substantial enough that, in my opinion, the ST RT cannot be fairly compared to the HT2-TL.

Although Salk speakers are "voiced" the same (with a big thank you to Dennis), the HT2-TL has deeper and more powerful bass.  There is also more midrange presence, and the midrange seems both more detailed and smoother, based upon my recollection. I  listened to Shelby Lynn's Just a Little Loving CD this morning, and her voice was, without doubt, clearer than on the ST RT, and I believe that I heard a little momentary distortion from the recording.  Her voice was so clear and smooth, it was "better than live."  The detail that was reproduced by the HT2-TL was incredible. 

Although I have a small room, the ST RT's sound didn't engulf me (in a good way) as does the HT2-TL's sound.  If the HT2-TL is "being there," the ST RT was "being near there."  In comparison to the HT2-TL, the ST RT's sound was "distant."  Even in my small room, the HT2-TL's sound is not coming from boxes.  Although the ST RT are beautifully sounding speakers, and I thought that the speakers disappeared in my room, when I initially hooked up the HT2-TL, and my mind wandered back to my experiences listening to the ST RT, I didn't think that the ST RT disappeared as well in comparison, even though the HT2-TL is a larger speaker, particularly because the ST RT's sound seemed more distant.

I made a lot of changes to my room's acoustic treatments between owning the ST RT and HT2-TL.  I increased the thickness of the absorption in every position except the 1st and 2nd side wall reflection points, and this undoubtedly changes the listening experience, and I think that the changes are more significant for the HT2-TL with the HT2-TL's deeper bass, although I suspect that most rooms will be served by increased low end absorption, even with speakers that don't have deep bass extension.

I think that the HT2-TL is far superior to the ST RT.  The HT2-TL is also more expensive.  For me, the rather minimal difference in price between the two speakers, based upon their production costs and performance, would knock the ST RT out of contention.  In my opinion, the HT2-TL's quality easily justifies the additional cost.  I haven't heard the ST dome, but at half the price of the HT2-TL, I can't imagine that the HT2-TL is twice the speaker, but if I were choosing between the three speakers, after owning the HT2-TL, I would buy the ST dome or the HT2-TL rather than the ST RT.  On the other hand, both the ST RT and HT2-TL are great speakers regardless of price, but price obviously plays a role in a buyer's decision.

This isn't a scientific comparison.  This isn't even an A-B comparison.  There could be psychoacoustics involved in the formulation of my opinion, and the modification of my room's treatments could have also improved the sound.  I could also want to rationalise my increased spending.  However, objectively, and this does not necessarily relate to sound quality, the midwoofers in the HT2-TL are at least, I believe, $500.00 more expensive than in the ST RT, and the larger and thicker cabinet materials also cost more, and the increased material costs appear to contribute to a significant portion of the cost differences between the speakers.

With the HT2-TL's deeper bass, better midrange, better power handling capabilities, and more "being there," I think that the HT2-TL is a better speaker than the ST RT, and a fairer comparison, in my opinion, would be to compare the HT2-TL to the HT2 (the HT2-TL is an HT2, after all), the V3, or the HT3 rather than to the ST RT.

Just my $.02.  I suspect that others might not agree.

[martyo]

I'd say you're right on the money there Mr. Pipe. 

[Kris]

Exactly as i thought.

[oneinthepipe]

..

[nyc_paramedic]

May I ask you to elaborate more on you room dimensions, bass traps, and whether the speakers are place on the long or short wall?


Thanks for the all the info. I am patiently waiting for my HT2-TL's.

[Nuance]

Not to take away from the HT2 TL's, as they are for sure the superior speaker, but if you added more room treatments, providing a better in-room FR, that could be attributing to the extra midrange detail you are hearing. 

Just food for thought.   

P.S.  We want more pics!  

[oneinthepipe]

May I ask you to elaborate more on you room dimensions, bass traps, and whether the speakers are place on the long or short wall?


Thanks for the all the info. I am patiently waiting for my HT2-TL's.

My room is much less than ideal.     The room is approximately 15.5 feet long X 15' wide and would be almost square except that the room narrows to 12.5' wide beyond 5' from the front wall.  (There was a built-in cabinet in that space in the room that I demolished, leaving a 2.5'X5' "alcove.")  The room has 8' ceilings.  There is approximately 205 square feet of floor space.  There is 5' wide opening in the center of the front wall (15' wide wall) that leads to the 24' long kitchen.  There is a 4' opening along the rear of the right side wall that leads into a small foyer.

There are 6" thick OC 703 bass traps, floor to ceiling, mounted diagonally in the front corners, and 6" thick OC 703 broadband absorption panels, floor to ceiling, in the corners of the rear wall.  There are (3) 6" thick OC 703 broadband absorption panels in the center of the rear wall, behind my listening chair.  There are (4) 4" thick mineral wool panels on the ceiling between the speakers and my listening chair.  There are 2" thick OC 703 acoustic panels at the 1st and 2nd side wall reflection points, and there are 6" thick OC 703 broadband absorption panels behind the speakers.  There is also a 6" thick OC 703 bass trap mounted diagonally on the floor in the corner that is created when the room narrows on the right side.  The panels are 24"WX48"H.  In total, there a (22) 24"X48" panels among the bass traps, broadband absorption panels, and acoustic panels, which is 144 square feet of OC 703 and 32 square feet of mineral wool.  I don't have any diffusers because I think that the room is too small for diffusion, except perhaps on the ceiling.  

The back of the speakers are 22" from the front wall.  The speakers are 90" apart, centers of tweeters  The tweeters are 88" from my ears, and my ears are 44" from the rear wall.  There isn't an inch to spare in any direction.

I am driving the HT2-TL with Audio by Van Alstine electronics.  My two non-AVA components are a Marantz CD5001 (CD transport) and an AR EB-101 turntable.  The Marantz CD5001 is connected to an AVA Insight+ DAC (although I also have an AVA Transcendence 8+ DAC that I have tried with the HT2-TL), then into an AVA Insight+ SL preamplifier that feeds an AVA Insight 440 amplifier, which provides more than 300 watts per channel of clean power to the HT2-TL.  There is a lot of speaker and amplification in a small room, but thank goodness for rigid fiberglass.

[oneinthepipe]

Not to take away from the HT2 TL's, as they are for sure the superior speaker, but if you added more room treatments, providing a better in-room FR, that could be attributing to the extra midrange detail you are hearing. 

Just food for thought.   

P.S.  We want more pics!  

Nuance:

Yes, I hope that the additional OC 703 contributes to the midrange detail.  The rigid fiberglass is nasty stuff with which to work, and when I add up the cost of the materials, that many bass traps and broadband absorption panels are not cheap, although I think that the money is well spent, and with a small room like mine, I think that they are essential.  Notwithstanding, I hope that my room treatment efforts were not for naught.  Regardless, you heard TJHUB's HT2-TL, and you didn't think that there was any additional midrange detail or smoothness, IIRC.

I also don't intend any of my comments to appear to be critical of the ST RT.  They are a great speaker.  I merely think that the HT2-TL should be compared against the other Veracity series speakers rather than the Song series speaker, and I would be eager to hear how the HT2-TL compare to the Veracity QW, in particular, since they seem most closely related, and to the HT3 and V3.  I loved the ST RT, and the ST RT purportedly sounds better to most than the ST dome-version.  When I initially contacted Jim last summer, I intended to purchase a pair of HT3, but Jim told me that my room was too small.  Jim told me that I would be served better with a QWTL design speaker and that I should consider the Veracity QW or the ST.  When I ordered my ST in September 2008, the HT2-TL was not yet in production.  I ordered a pair of ST with OWII tweeters, and I changed my order to add the ribbon tweeter after I read about your experiences with the ST RT.  Jim was very kind in allowing me to modify my order in mid-production (the cabinets had already been made).    I have never heard the HT2, HT3, Veracity QW, or the V3, and I don't know how the HT2-TL would compare to any of those speakers, although Dennis stated that a 3-way design would have lower distortion in the midrange.  With my room, I am limited, from Salk Sound's selection of full-range speakers, to a QWTL design (no HT4 for me).

I owe much of "my journey" to you.  If I hadn't taken the "leap" to the ST RT from the ST dome-version, I would certainly not taken the "leap" from the ST RT to the HT2-TL.  Even though I initially intended to order a much more expensive speaker, the HT3, I wouldn't have spent twice the price "upgrading" from the ST dome-version to the HT2-TL, because, as with other members, the HT2-TL initially appeared to me to essentially be a ST RT on steroids.  I remember writing to you about the HT2-TL when I learned about the new speaker, and I wrote that I loved the ST RT so much that I wanted more, more, more, and I described the yet unheard HT2-TL as an ST RT that was "bigger, badder, better."  Since the speakers are "voiced" similarly, and the speakers resemble each other so much, there is undoubtedly some "truth" in that perception, although the larger and higher grade woofers and thicker cabinet material makes them more than just a bigger ST RT.

BTW, Nuance, there isn't another pair of Pal Dao speakers in the world that are as beautiful as your pair.

Regards,

OITP

[Nuance]

oneinthepipe,

You are too kind.  Thanks for the nice words.

I didn't mean to imply I was offended by what you said, because I wasn't.  I just meant that a change to the room acoustics can effect the sound you (we) hear as much or more than changing out the speakers themselves.  For me, the room acoustics and speakers are the two key factors (and most important) in regards to sound reproduction.

I haven't directly compared the ST RT and the HT2 TL (as in next to each other in the same room), but I think TJHUB and I will have to do so soon...if nothing but to just have fun.    His room is nice and large, yet has great acoustics without having to treat it (a rarity).  I wouldn't mind taking my speakers up to his place for comparison sake some time.

I do think the superior midrange drivers attributed to a smoother, more detailed midrange, but I dunno how much.  TJHUB and I both have our opinions on the comparison between the two, but it's tough to say without that direct comparo. 

I've mentioned before that the newly designed HT2 TL's are much more inert, and probably virtually resonant free.  They have an overall better build quality and are just flat out solid.  I love them! 

The law of diminishing returns definitely comes into to place when comparing these speakers.  At double the price of the SongTower RT's, only the listener can decide if the HT2 TL is worth it.  I think if I had the choice, I'd get two set of pairs of SongTower RT's and sit right between the pairs and drool.     Haha!

[fsimms]

OITP, I think your comparison's of the ST RT's and the HT2-TL's are spot on based on my comparison of the ST's and HT1's in my own room.  

Nuance, I think it would be unreasonable for one to expect the same degree of clarity from a flexable treated paper cone as from a more rigid magnesium cone.  The ST's were clearer than most other speakers even so.  I guess the paper cone is pretty rigid in the frequencies used.  

The clarity of my HT1's is beyond belief on some recordings.  Each time I upgrade my equipment, I can easily hear significant improvements in clarity.  There seems to be no law of diminishing returns with these speakers.  


Bob

Edit:

Nuance, I wrote my post while you were posting your comment.  It is just a coincidence that we both use the term "diminishing returns".   We were talking about different things though.

[oneinthepipe]

Nuance:

I agree with you completely, except that the HT2-TL were not twice the price of the ST RT.  If they had been, I probably would not have upgraded.  The custom-cabinet version of the ST RT is  $2700.00 plus the cost of the veneer.  The custom-cabinet version of the HT2-TL (pre-price increase) was $3700.00 (loaded cabinet) plus the cost of the veneer, and the increase in cost was $1000.00.  With the price increase, the difference between the speakers will be slightly more.

[Nuance]

Nuance:

I agree with you completely, except that the HT2-TL were not twice the price of the ST RT.  If they had been, I probably would not have upgraded.  The custom-cabinet version of the ST RT is  $2700.00 plus the cost of the veneer.  The custom-cabinet version of the HT2-TL (pre-price increase) was $3700.00 (loaded cabinet) plus the cost of the veneer, and the increase in cost was $1000.00.  With the price increase, the difference between the speakers will be slightly more.

When you say custom, what are you talking about? 

[Nuance]

OITP, I think your comparison's of the ST RT's and the HT2-TL's are spot on based on my comparison of the ST's and HT1's in my own room.  

Nuance, I think it would be unreasonable for one to expect the same degree of clarity from a flexable treated paper cone as from a more rigid magnesium cone.  The ST's were clearer than most other speakers even so.  I guess the paper cone is pretty rigid in the frequencies used.  

The clarity of my HT1's is beyond belief on some recordings.  Each time I upgrade my equipment, I can easily hear significant improvements in clarity.  There seems to be no law of diminishing returns with these speakers.  


Bob

Edit:

Nuance, I wrote my post while you were posting your comment.  It is just a coincidence that we both use the term "diminishing returns".   We were talking about different things though.

I expected a vast difference between the different drivers, but a vast difference I did not hear.  This, of course, made me happy because I knew that I was getting 95% of the sound the HT2 TL's produced (from 200Hz and up, of course.  Below the Schroeder frequency the HT2 TL's spank the ST RT's IMO).  YMMV, of course. 

Personally, I think the new HT2 TL will become Salk's best selling speaker.  It's a heckuva lot of speaker for the money.  I just can't see anything besting it at this price range.  Period.  It would also be cool to see the SongTower's move to a full 1" thick cabinet instead of the standard 3/4".  In fact, that's an upgrade I'd actually pay for.  Of course, that's not possible because you'd have to pretty much redo the whole speaker.  Oh well. 

[oneinthepipe]

Nuance:

The satin black ST RT is $2395.00, and the satin black HT2 is $3295.00.  If the upgrade from  the HT2-TL is $500.00, the satin black HT2-TL would cost $3795.00, a $1400.00 (and substantial) difference.  When I bought my ST   RT, I had a custom veneer, and my ST RT was $2695.00 plus $200.00 for the veneer, for a total of $2895.00, not inclusive of shipping (this is the standard advertised price).

Anyway, the HT2-TL is more expensive (but less expensive than the HT3!).

I didn't get that beautiful hand-rubbed finish, either!

Best,

OITP

[charmerci]

Oitp,

Damm your impressions about how they sound, you could have put up some decent pictures of them in the time that you wrote that last entry! Priorities, dude, priorities! 

[Nuance]

I heard the HT2 TL's will more than that.  I guess it depends on what the final price is.   

[oneinthepipe]

I heard the HT2 TL's will cost closer to $4500-$5000.  I guess it depends on what the final price is.   

Is that for the base model, veneered cabinet, or full blown cabinet?  For the latter cabinet, there will be the extra, reasonable cost of the veneer.  The ported, floor standing HT2 (non-TL version) prices are $3295.00 (base model), $3495.00 (veneered cabinet), and $3695.00 (full blown cabinet).  Those prices, for the HT2 (non-TL version) are $1600.00 , $1400.00, and $1200.00 less than the base model ($4895.00), veneered cabinet ($5295.00), and full blown cabinet ($5695.00) versions of the HT3.  The price range that you reported for the HT2-TL positions the HT2-TL much closer in price to the HT3 but widens the price difference between the HT2-TL and the ST RT and ST OWII.

[jsalk]

With all those numbers flying around, I'm getting a little dizzy.  So I thought a few words on HT2-TL pricing might be in order.

As you will note, we have not yet "officially" announced the model or posted it on our web site.  I hope to do that this week-end.  While I am obviously biased, I think $4500 - $5000 would be more than a fair price for the performance these speakers offer.  In that same sense, you could easily say that the SongTowers are under-priced for their level of performance.  But our philosophy has always been to offer speakers at the lowest possible price so that people could actually enjoy them rather than just dream about them.

I have also been doing some thinking lately about our pricing structures and have come to the conclusion that they are entirely too complicated.  So we are going to try and list each speaker at a base price for black or any "standard" veneer (our "standard" veneers are what many others would consider premium veneers).  We will also have a "custom" price which will be slightly higher.  To that price, you would simply add the cost of the veneer chosen.  This is a much more simple and straight-forward approach and I think there will be less confusion.

Getting back to the HT2-TL's, as I said above, a price of $4500 - $5000 is probably where they should be (all of my associates say we would be crazy to offer them for less).  But, at least to start with, we are going to go with a base price of $3995 per pair in a standard finish. 

The goal here is to offer the best speaker under $2000 (SongTowers), the best speaker under $3000 (to be announced), the best speaker under $4000 (the HT2-TL's) and the best speaker under $6000 (the HT3's).  Of course, some could question the use of the term "best" here, but that is the idea.  Now the "HT4's" (or whatever they will be called), are another matter entirely.  Our goal here is to produce a speaker that is just flat out the best and let the price fall where it may.

I hope that all makes sense.

- Jim

[rahimlee54]

HT2 TL for less than 4k, that is really good.  I hope to have mine soon, now I wonder what is the best speaker under 3k  .

Jared

[oneinthepipe]

With all those numbers flying around, I'm getting a little dizzy.  So I thought a few words on HT2-TL pricing might be in order.

Yes, there were a wide array of options and prices.

HT2 TL for less than 4k, that is really good.  I hope to have mine soon, now I wonder what is the best speaker under 3k  .

Jared

Until Jim produces the new speaker, the SongTowers appear to be the best speaker, in their iterations, in both the under $2000.00 category and the under $3000.00 category, respectively.   

Jared, hopefully, your wait will pass quickly.