AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Empirical Audio => Topic started by: audioengr on 19 Mar 2018, 02:19 am

Title: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 19 Mar 2018, 02:19 am
The Interchange Ethernet interface is my best digital audio solution ever.  I have designed 6 generations of USB interfaces and I have to say, this is better.  It supports DLNA/UPnP and Roon with the help of this device:

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/accessories/products/upnpbridge?variant=6964135395362 (https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/accessories/products/upnpbridge?variant=6964135395362)

It comprises two small chassis and has S/PDIF, AES/EBU, SE I2S and HDMI differential I2s outputs.  The second chassis is a special version of the Dynamo LPS with Hynes regulation:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177685)

The front panel displays 6 PCM sample-rates, from 44.1 to 192.  The hardware is capable of outputting native DSD64 from the I2S outputs, but has not been tested.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177726)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177723)

I don't usually do this, but here are the guts:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177724)
T
As you can see, it's modular in design, with separate dual turboclock module and separate Ethernet module with an onboard SBC (single-board computer). Turboclock uses custom Crystek oscillators.   Each part of the circuit has it's own Hynes-technology regulator.  6-7 Hynes-technology regulators total, depending on options.  Options include:

- OTL mod to eliminate S/PDIF galavanic isolation and improve jitter - $150
- Hynes-technology regulator for the I2S outputs - $350
- Standard external silver BNC cable - $275
- Reference external silver BNC cable - $499

I highly recommend using one of my external BNC coax cables because the risetimes are so fast on the S/PDIF output.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177725)

The Dynamo is an ultra-fast responding linear power supply.

Superb SQ can be achieved with Linn Kinsky controlling Minimserver, both freeware for Windows, Mac and Linux.  In my system, this SQ beats Jriver, Amarra and Roon.  Unbelievable imaging and liveness.  Very 3-D, holographic.

If you want to stream Tidal, you can use BubbleUPnP with Linn Kazoo.

Here is the jitter distribution measurement:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181067)

This shows how often the ideal time period is deviated from.

About 10psec standard deviation both sides of the distribution, measured at the end of the S/PDIF cable across the 75 ohm termination.  This is a realistic jitter measurement of the source only, not dependent on the DAC.

I listened recently to about 100 remastered Beatles tracks and I have never heard them like this before.  Like McCartney and Lennon are in the room with me.

The Interchange is a DLNA/UPnP device and can support Roon with the help of this device:

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/accessories/products/upnpbridge?variant=6964135395362 (https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/accessories/products/upnpbridge?variant=6964135395362)

.  Compatible with Jriver, Linn Kinsky, Linn Kazoo, Lumin, Twonky, Minimserver, BubbleUPnP and others.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: artur9 on 19 Mar 2018, 11:00 am
No product page for this yet?
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 19 Mar 2018, 08:35 pm
No product page for this yet?

Not yet.  What more do you need to know?

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: artur9 on 19 Mar 2018, 10:32 pm
I was curious about how it works.  Is it similar to a RedNet system or is it more like an SMS-200?  And price.

I already have MinimServer and Kinsky so I am curious what the interaction between the pieces are.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 19 Mar 2018, 11:20 pm
I was curious about how it works.  Is it similar to a RedNet system or is it more like an SMS-200?  And price.

I already have MinimServer and Kinsky so I am curious what the interaction between the pieces are.

The Interchange is like an audiophile quality Sonos that has more outputs and supports up to 24/192.  It is DLNA/UPnP.  Works seamlessly with Kinsky and Minimserver.  Just do a refresh and it appears in Kinsky as a renderer.  Select it and you are playing music.

If you want to stream Tidal, you can download and install BubbleUPnP and Linn Kazoo, both freeware.

Price is $2999.00

Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: firedog on 20 Mar 2018, 06:46 am
And if we want to use Roon, can  Roon Bridge be installed on this so it  can be a Roon endpoint?
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 20 Mar 2018, 05:48 pm
And if we want to use Roon, can  Roon Bridge be installed on this so it  can be a Roon endpoint?

No Roon.  I want better audio quality.

Do you use Roon because of Tidal streaming?

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: zoom25 on 20 Mar 2018, 05:52 pm
No Roon.  I want better audio quality.

Do you use Roon because of Tidal streaming?

Steve N.

Hi Steve,

Can you share why you prefer the DLNA/UPnP over Roon, or why you think Roon is a compromise in SQ? I'd love to know. Thanks!
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 20 Mar 2018, 07:49 pm
Hi Steve,

Can you share why you prefer the DLNA/UPnP over Roon, or why you think Roon is a compromise in SQ? I'd love to know. Thanks!

It's Linn Kinsky and Minimserver that I prefer.  Much more live rendering of rain, running water, clapping, percussion etc..  The difference between live in the room with you and not.

There are a lot of different player softwares that have SQ deficiencies IME, and I believe it's mostly due to the Volume Control DSP code.  Somehow, when you set the volume to max on Kinsky, it seems to do no harm.  Amarra is also very good, but does not support networked audio. I have asked other vendors, including Twonky to add a "bypass/disable" mode to their volume controls, but they want money to do this.  They don't seem to be concerned enough about the audiophile market to make this change on their own.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: zoom25 on 20 Mar 2018, 07:57 pm
It's Linn Kinsky and Minimserver that I prefer.  Much more live rendering of rain, running water, clapping, percussion etc..  The difference between live in the room with you and not.

There are a lot of different player softwares that have SQ deficiencies IME, and I believe it's mostly due to the Volume Control DSP code.  Somehow, when you set the volume to max on Kinsky, it seems to do no harm.  I have asked other vendors, including Twonky to add a "bypass/disable" mode to their volume controls, but they want money to do this.  They don't seem to be concerned enough about the audiophile market to make this change on their own.

Steve N.

Interesting. I have very little experience with DLNA and UpNP playback. When I do my own testing between all of streaming/playback modes, I make sure that everything is turned off and the volume stuff is disabled. Good to keep in mind.

Was there anything in particular about Roon or RAAT that you didn't like or thought was a bad idea? In your opinion, are one of these DLNA, UpNP, RAAT or something else more sensitive or immune to network changes?
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 20 Mar 2018, 08:14 pm
Interesting. I have very little experience with DLNA and UpNP playback. When I do my own testing between all of streaming/playback modes, I make sure that everything is turned off and the volume stuff is disabled. Good to keep in mind.

Was there anything in particular about Roon or RAAT that you didn't like or thought was a bad idea? In your opinion, are one of these DLNA, UpNP, RAAT or something else more sensitive or immune to network changes?

I always set volume to max or otherwise disable it if possible.

I have heard that RAAT is more stable on the network than DLNA, but I have used my Sonos for many years and never had any hiccups.  It is DLNA.  I think the issue is playback/control software, not the network.  I'm not alone in this:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/sound-quality-not-as-good-as-other-programs/22674 (https://community.roonlabs.com/t/sound-quality-not-as-good-as-other-programs/22674)

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/sound-quality-of-roon-versus-jriver/27810/25 (https://community.roonlabs.com/t/sound-quality-of-roon-versus-jriver/27810/25)

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/dsp-enable-lowers-sound-quality/32283 (https://community.roonlabs.com/t/dsp-enable-lowers-sound-quality/32283)

https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/the-audio-vault/digital-playback/digital-add-ons-and-software/57762-roon (https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/the-audio-vault/digital-playback/digital-add-ons-and-software/57762-roon)

https://kb.roonlabs.com/HQPlayer_Setup (https://kb.roonlabs.com/HQPlayer_Setup)

https://darko.audio/2017/06/were-gonna-jplay-in-the-sunshine/ (https://darko.audio/2017/06/were-gonna-jplay-in-the-sunshine/)


Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: artur9 on 21 Mar 2018, 12:09 am
It's Linn Kinsky and Minimserver that I prefer.  Much more live rendering of rain, running water, clapping, percussion etc..  The difference between live in the room with you and not.

I have had great results with those.  Since what I feed them into processes everything at 96KHz I also use MinimServer to upsample as I trust new software a little more than old hardware.  Have you done anything similar?  Or do you play everything  at its original sample rate?
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 21 Mar 2018, 05:34 pm
I have had great results with those.  Since what I feed them into processes everything at 96KHz I also use MinimServer to upsample as I trust new software a little more than old hardware.  Have you done anything similar?  Or do you play everything  at its original sample rate?

I used to upsample my favorite tracks, but now I just leave it at the native rate.  My Overdrive sounds great with no upsampling.

FYI, I found that the renderer must be powered-on before opening Kinsky or it doesn't work right and even changes the SQ.

When it works correctly, Kinsky and Minimserver is simply amazing.  I wish there was another control app that would just work with Minimserver that would easily allow for Tidal or Qobuz streaming.  Any ideas?  Minimstreamer??

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: artur9 on 21 Mar 2018, 09:20 pm
When it works correctly, Kinsky and Minimserver is simply amazing.  I wish there was another control app that would just work with Minimserver that would easily allow for Tidal or Qobuz streaming.  Any ideas?  Minimstreamer??

Steve N.

I did a quick google and found something that said MinimStreamer does not do that.  BubbleUpnp apparently is the suggested solution.

I know I used to have a few radio stations saved in a playlist that used to work.  But Tidal and Qobuz have special needs.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 22 Mar 2018, 12:04 am
I did a quick google and found something that said MinimStreamer does not do that.  BubbleUpnp apparently is the suggested solution.

I know I used to have a few radio stations saved in a playlist that used to work.  But Tidal and Qobuz have special needs.

Just compared BubbleUPnP with Kazoo to Kinsky with Minimserver.  Kinsky wins hands-down.

The problem I have with Tidal is that it is all FLAC files.  I did a comparison of FLAC to WAV on Kinsky and like all other players I have tried, WAV is much better, more lifelike.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: joerossdrs on 26 Mar 2018, 02:27 pm
I have been using the Interchange for a couple of weeks this is the best digital frontend I have had in my system. My previous server the Aurender N10 was wonderful but not as smooth and natural as the Interchange. I am using Minimserver and bubbbleUpnp as the media/proxy server and Lumin ios app as the controller. The Interchange is connected using I2S to the Overdrive SX Dac. If you are looking for a great digital music experience give the Interchange a try! Steve is also a great guy to work with he is always improving his products and sharing this info with his customers.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 31 Mar 2018, 05:48 pm
Just discovered, thanks to a European poster on What'sbest forum, that running BubbleUPnP as a proxy server with Minimserver improves the SQ even more.  You set proxy server inside BubbleUPnP and then select the Minimserver proxy rather than Minimserver for the music library inside Kinsky or Lumin control point.

Also, I am auditioning some really good Ethernet cables.  I was skeptical whether they would be an improvement on my CAT7 generic cables, but I was pleasantly surprised.  So far I have tested the WireWorld Starlight CAT8 and it is definitely better.  Much more live.  Next I will compare the Starlight Platinum CAT8.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: andrewd01 on 5 Apr 2018, 04:59 am
Just discovered, thanks to a European poster on What'sbest forum, that running BubbleUPnP as a proxy server with Minimserver improves the SQ even more.  You set proxy server inside BubbleUPnP and then select the Minimserver proxy rather than Minimserver for the music library inside Kinsky or Lumin control point.

Also, I am auditioning some really good Ethernet cables.  I was skeptical whether they would be an improvement on my CAT7 generic cables, but I was pleasantly surprised.  So far I have tested the WireWorld Starlight CAT8 and it is definitely better.  Much more live.  Next I will compare the Starlight Platinum CAT8.

Steve N.

Hi Steve,
Its been a few years since I messed with my CA setup. It now seems like you need a degree in computer science to deal with this stuff! Could you please answer some questions about the basic setup that you are recommending for this interface:

1.  Is it still recommended to use a dedicated computer close to the hifi system, or is this device like a sonos connect device that streams from a nas?

2. If using a dedicated computer is recommended,  does it matter if it is a generic computer or does it benefit from being an 'audiophile'' optimised system (for example antipodes server etc).

3. If it works like a Sonos connect, are you recommending hard-wired ethernet cable all the way to the NAS, or is there some sort of wireless alternative?  The former option is obviously quite inconvenient and expensive.

4. Could you please provide a simple explanation of what the various software required actually does?

Many thanks,
Andrew
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 5 Apr 2018, 05:16 pm
Hi Steve,
Its been a few years since I messed with my CA setup. It now seems like you need a degree in computer science to deal with this stuff! Could you please answer some questions about the basic setup that you are recommending for this interface:

1.  Is it still recommended to use a dedicated computer close to the hifi system, or is this device like a sonos connect device that streams from a nas?

It is like a Sonos connect, so it can be used with WIFI.  NAS is not necessary, but is an option.

Quote
2. If using a dedicated computer is recommended,  does it matter if it is a generic computer or does it benefit from being an 'audiophile'' optimised system (for example antipodes server etc).

Generic computer is fine.

Quote
3. If it works like a Sonos connect, are you recommending hard-wired ethernet cable all the way to the NAS, or is there some sort of wireless alternative?  The former option is obviously quite inconvenient and expensive.

I offer a WIFI adapter for $1K.

Quote
4. Could you please provide a simple explanation of what the various software required actually does?

Linn Kinsky is the player control software that you use to organize your playlists and library.  You can drag and drop files. It has the play/stop/pause controls.  This is the user interface.

Minimserver is the server that actually outputs the data stream to the network.  You select the Minimserver library inside of Kinsky.  The only settings in Minimserver are: the path to your music and any optional tags you want attached to the track names, such as sample-rate or filetype.

BubbleUPnP is also a server, but when set as a proxy for Minimserver, it is used instead of the Minimserver for music output to the network.  Better SQ is the result.  It appears as a proxy Minimserver library inside Kinsky that you select instead of the Minimserver library.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: andrewd01 on 5 Apr 2018, 07:56 pm
Thanks Steve
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: andrewd01 on 5 Apr 2018, 09:24 pm
I have been thinking about this some more, and have some more questions:

I have a mac mini which I was using as a music server via USB (via Offramp).  I found the user interface quite cumbersome, because I ran the computer without a display and tried to use a screen sharing app on the ipad.

Is it possible to install minimserver and bubbleUPnP on the mac mini, and then connect the mac mini via ethernet to the interchange, and use the Lumin ipad app to control the music?   

Is my understanding correct that Lumin replaces the need for Kinsky?

Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: artur9 on 5 Apr 2018, 11:44 pm
BubbleUPnP is also a server, but when set as a proxy for Minimserver, it is used instead of the Minimserver for music output to the network.  Better SQ is the result.  It appears as a proxy Minimserver library inside Kinsky that you select instead of the Minimserver library.

Steve N.

Ahy hypothesis as to why one gets better SQ this way?  Can't imagine better than Minimserver converting to WAV.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 6 Apr 2018, 07:50 pm
I have been thinking about this some more, and have some more questions:

I have a mac mini which I was using as a music server via USB (via Offramp).  I found the user interface quite cumbersome, because I ran the computer without a display and tried to use a screen sharing app on the ipad.

Is it possible to install minimserver and bubbleUPnP on the mac mini, and then connect the mac mini via ethernet to the interchange, and use the Lumin ipad app to control the music?   

Absolutely, but the Mac Mini and the Interchange both connect to a router or switch. 

I suppose you could use a swap/crossover cable to connect the Mini directly to the Interchange, but I have not tried this yet.  I don't believe the SQ would be as good as a router that has DC common earth-grounded.

Quote
Is my understanding correct that Lumin replaces the need for Kinsky?
Yes.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 6 Apr 2018, 07:51 pm
Ahy hypothesis as to why one gets better SQ this way?  Can't imagine better than Minimserver converting to WAV.

I can only surmise that BubleUPnP must be a better server than Minimserver.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: Brucemck on 8 Apr 2018, 04:35 pm
No Roon.  I want better audio quality.

Roon with all the DSP and volume disabled has very high quality. The integration with HQ Player makes it even better. It'd be great if the Interchange could be Roon ready!
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 8 Apr 2018, 05:15 pm
Roon with all the DSP and volume disabled has very high quality. The integration with HQ Player makes it even better. It'd be great if the Interchange could be Roon ready!

I tried Roon and disabled everything, but I didn't try HQplayer.  Kinsky and Minimserver beat it hands-down.  Enable BubbleUPnP and it's even better.  This is why I decided not to pursue a Roon interface.  SQ is all that matters.

Should I try again with HQplayer?  What were the improvements you heard?

Streaming is not interesting to me because it is all FLAC files and does not sound as good as native wav.  I have made the comparisons.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: Brucemck on 8 Apr 2018, 06:10 pm
Should I try again with HQplayer?  What were the improvements you heard?

The latest updates of Roon materially improved the sonics. Older versions absolutely had sonic issues, and most of the posts were based on older releases, but the latest version is very, very good.

HQ Player properly set up adds both "solidity" and "fluidity". It used to be a large improvement, but is now very subtle with the latest Roon updates.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: andrewd01 on 8 Apr 2018, 06:33 pm
Hi Steve, another question about a hard-wired setup.

I have a router and Nas in one room ported to an ethernet wall socket in the hifi room.  Ethernet cabling of unknown quality, but I am getting 80 Mbps internet download speed from the wall socket in the hifi room.  Would it be acceptable to add a switch with a high quality power supply in the hifi room only, or do you also need to upgrade the power supply of the router too?

Can you recommend a plug and play switch/ power supply solution?

Thanks,
Andrew
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 8 Apr 2018, 06:59 pm
The latest updates of Roon materially improved the sonics. Older versions absolutely had sonic issues, and most of the posts were based on older releases, but the latest version is very, very good.

HQ Player properly set up adds both "solidity" and "fluidity". It used to be a large improvement, but is now very subtle with the latest Roon updates.

I tried Roon about 4-6 weeks ago.  I think this is the latest version.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 8 Apr 2018, 07:03 pm
Hi Steve, another question about a hard-wired setup.

I have a router and Nas in one room ported to an ethernet wall socket in the hifi room.  Ethernet cabling of unknown quality, but I am getting 80 Mbps internet download speed from the wall socket in the hifi room.  Would it be acceptable to add a switch with a high quality power supply in the hifi room only, or do you also need to upgrade the power supply of the router too?

It should only be necessary to add the switch with a good LPS.  Only the last device before the Ethernet renderer matters.

Quote
Can you recommend a plug and play switch/ power supply solution?
Thanks,
Andrew

I think the best will be the AQVOX:

http://www.myhifishop.de/Devices/AQ-SWITCH-AQVOX-Audiophile-Network-SWITCH-8-Ports::75.html?language=en (http://www.myhifishop.de/Devices/AQ-SWITCH-AQVOX-Audiophile-Network-SWITCH-8-Ports::75.html?language=en)

I'm not sure about the power supply that comes with it. It is critical that the AC earth-ground is connected to the DC-common/negative of the DC cable.

Since the AQVOX uses a wall-wart, one can add grounding by using a DC splitter cable, where the second cable connector  is clamped in a power distribution block.  The block also clamps down on a 12 gauge stranded wire that goes to an AC outlet where the end is terminated with a banana plug or similar.  This plug can be pushed into the ground hole in the outlet.

Power splitter cable:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Power-Female-to-Male-Splitter-Adapter-Cable-for-LED-Strip-String-Light/272955132150?epid=1821681716&hash=item3f8d64c8f6:g:pKkAAOSwo4pYa00h (https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Power-Female-to-Male-Splitter-Adapter-Cable-for-LED-Strip-String-Light/272955132150?epid=1821681716&hash=item3f8d64c8f6:g:pKkAAOSwo4pYa00h)

Power distribution block, 1-pole
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ilsco-PDB-16-2-0-1-Power-Distribution-Block-Single-Pole-Amp-Rating-175A/332493503418?_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150817211856%26meid%3D1d73111117524d0fb55893a6b3298add%26pid%3D100508%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26%26itm%3D332493503418&_trksid=p2045573.c100508.m3226 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ilsco-PDB-16-2-0-1-Power-Distribution-Block-Single-Pole-Amp-Rating-175A/332493503418?_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150817211856%26meid%3D1d73111117524d0fb55893a6b3298add%26pid%3D100508%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26%26itm%3D332493503418&_trksid=p2045573.c100508.m3226)

The other option is to get a fast-reacting LPS with grounded power cord where ground is connected to DC common of the DC cable.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: andrewd01 on 9 Apr 2018, 04:28 am
Thanks Steve
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 16 Apr 2018, 05:34 pm
I am almost done tweaking now and the sound quality is incredible.  Here are the hardware things I recommend for the device and cabling directly wired to the DAC:

1) Change the router/switch power supply to a fast-reacting LPS with DC-common connected to earth ground
2) use high-performance Ethernet cables like the Wireworld
3) get a modded switch or router, like the AQVOX
4) use a 0.5m Ethernet cable from the switch/router to a EMO EN-70e isolator and then another 2m cable to the DAC/Ethernet renderer

My review of Wireworld Ethernet cables compared to my CAT7:

CAT7:
- Cardboard cut-out performers arranged in a wide and deep soundstage
- Vocalists are recessed, pushed-back
- fairly good balance

Starlight CAT8:
- 3D performers arranged in a wide and deep soundstage
- Crisper attack than CAT7
- Cymbols a bit forward
- Vocalists very natural

Platinum CAT8:
- More organic, natural
- Perfect balance
- Smoother, richer
- Cymbols less in your face
- More weight, solidity to each performer
- Better focus for HF info like acoustic guitar

I decided on the Platinum.  Spendy, but worth it IMO.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: sb6 on 17 Apr 2018, 09:09 pm
Steve, in my configuration I have a short crossover ethernet cable from PC to uRendu and a 2nd nic in my PC to a router power by a LPSU. The PC acts as a bridge for remote PC access + internet access for Roon, etc. I would think in my configuration the optimizations you list would be of little to no benefit since the switch is physically connected to a separate nic in the PC. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 18 Apr 2018, 01:02 am
Steve, in my configuration I have a short crossover ethernet cable from PC to uRendu and a 2nd nic in my PC to a router power by a LPSU. The PC acts as a bridge for remote PC access + internet access for Roon, etc. I would think in my configuration the optimizations you list would be of little to no benefit since the switch is physically connected to a separate nic in the PC. Thoughts?

The only thing the would be beneficial is to use high-performance Ethernet cables and the isolator.  Maybe a 0.5m crossover cable and then the isolator and a 2M high-performance cable.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: brj on 18 Apr 2018, 01:14 am
Steve, have you tried something like the TP-Link optical media converters or maybe an optical isolator in place of the modded switch?  (Presumably powered by a clean power source on the receiving side, at least.)

And if this is beyond what you want to divulge, I understand, but does your specific Ethernet input to the Interchange minimize the impacts from these upstream devices?  Standards compliant Ethernet should have a transformer on every jack intended to provide galvanic isolation, ground offset mitigation, and common mode noise rejection.  I'd normally assume that such an interface would be less sensitive to the benefits provided by tweaked switches, etc..  Like most systems, however, I assume that the quality of implementation will vary, and with it, the potential benefit from such upstream component choices.  I'm guessing that off-the-shelf transformers could be improved, for example.

Your implementations get rave reviews, and I've enjoyed every RMAF demonstration of yours that I've heard, but I guess I'm curious as to why some things matter, mostly as an aid toward integrating the system as a whole.

FYI, another Roon/HQ Player user here, so I'll keep watching for any news on that front.  Thanks!

(By the way, while I still use HQP for upsampling and driver (not room) correction via convolution of an impulse response filter, Roon bears continued monitoring relative to their sound quality... their overall upsampling/convolution/DSP capabilities and implementation have been improving with each new release.)
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: zoom25 on 18 Apr 2018, 06:35 am
Before jumping in and buying expensive cables, see if you can get some for audition. Whatever cable you pick, see if you can get two or three of them. One can be 1m long or as short as you want. Next get one that's 2m and another that's 10m long. Do that for all the individual cables involved in the chain. You might be surprised by the results.

I'm also using Roon and have done lots of testing with various switches, routers, direct bridged connection, power supplies etc...and a LOT of ethernet cables. 30+ of Cat5e, 6, 6a, UTP, S/STP, various shield floating combinations, Belden bonded, etc. Length ranging from 1 feet to 60+ feet. Lots of cables that have been tested on Fluke DTX 1800 so you can see the individual performance of each cable.

Given that most of us are using this in a calm home environment, some of the assumptions that we think make a difference might actually not be relevant, whereas others might be getting overlooked at that are more important.

Seriously, pick your cable. Any cable. Get a 1m of it and a 10m version. Listen long term to both.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 18 Apr 2018, 05:01 pm
Steve, have you tried something like the TP-Link optical media converters or maybe an optical isolator in place of the modded switch?  (Presumably powered by a clean power source on the receiving side, at least.)

I have not tried optical yet. I tried an AC power system and it was noisy and some SQ issues.

I use both an isolator, the EMO EN-70e and a modded router.

Quote
And if this is beyond what you want to divulge, I understand, but does your specific Ethernet input to the Interchange minimize the impacts from these upstream devices?  Standards compliant Ethernet should have a transformer on every jack intended to provide galvanic isolation, ground offset mitigation, and common mode noise rejection.

There is a transformer on every jack.  The noise effects are due to capacitive leakage across the transformers.

Quote
I'd normally assume that such an interface would be less sensitive to the benefits provided by tweaked switches, etc..  Like most systems, however, I assume that the quality of implementation will vary, and with it, the potential benefit from such upstream component choices.  I'm guessing that off-the-shelf transformers could be improved, for example.

Probably.  Most passive devices don't behave as well as the text-book ideal.  I had hoped that I would not need to optimize cables and router etc., but life is never easy it seems.  Like Asynch USB, we were all hoping that the computer effects would be eliminated.  So much for that...

Quote
FYI, another Roon/HQ Player user here, so I'll keep watching for any news on that front.

I suspect that I will not be doing a Roon interface.  It has to match the SQ that I am getting now, and it's not there yet.

Quote
(By the way, while I still use HQP for upsampling and driver (not room) correction via convolution of an impulse response filter, Roon bears continued monitoring relative to their sound quality... their overall upsampling/convolution/DSP capabilities and implementation have been improving with each new release.)

The problem with using DSP features of Roon is that these seem to affect SQ even more.  I have not tried these, but that is what I'm reading on the various forums.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: brj on 18 Apr 2018, 07:49 pm
Thanks, Steve!

Any consideration for an HQ Player NAA implementation?

(I only use Roon for the user interface. I have HQPlayer doing the upsampling, convolution, etc.)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: andrewd01 on 21 Apr 2018, 04:36 am
I am almost done tweaking now and the sound quality is incredible.  Here are the hardware things I recommend for the device and cabling directly wired to the DAC:

1) Change the router/switch power supply to a fast-reacting LPS with DC-common connected to earth ground
2) use high-performance Ethernet cables like the Wireworld
3) get a modded switch or router, like the AQVOX
4) use a 0.5m Ethernet cable from the switch/router to a EMO EN-70e isolator and then another 2m cable to the DAC/Ethernet renderer

My review of Wireworld Ethernet cables compared to my CAT7:

CAT7:
- Cardboard cut-out performers arranged in a wide and deep soundstage
- Vocalists are recessed, pushed-back
- fairly good balance

Starlight CAT8:
- 3D performers arranged in a wide and deep soundstage
- Crisper attack than CAT7
- Cymbols a bit forward
- Vocalists very natural

Platinum CAT8:
- More organic, natural
- Perfect balance
- Smoother, richer
- Cymbols less in your face
- More weight, solidity to each performer
- Better focus for HF info like acoustic guitar

I decided on the Platinum.  Spendy, but worth it IMO.

Steve N.

Hi Steve, are you using the wireworld cable on both sides of the EMO EN-70e or only for the downstream 2m cable?
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 21 Apr 2018, 05:19 pm
Hi Steve, are you using the wireworld cable on both sides of the EMO EN-70e or only for the downstream 2m cable?

Both sides.  I tried flipping it so the short side was at the DAC.  Lost the magic.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 21 Apr 2018, 05:21 pm
Thanks, Steve!

Any consideration for an HQ Player NAA implementation?

(I only use Roon for the user interface. I have HQPlayer doing the upsampling, convolution, etc.)

Thanks!

I'll read up on this.  I think it requires a new firmware.

BTW, will HQplayer convert DSD to PCM on the fly or statically?

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: BCRich1 on 21 Apr 2018, 07:10 pm
On the fly....
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: andrewd01 on 21 Apr 2018, 08:53 pm
Thanks Steve
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: firedog on 22 Apr 2018, 06:46 am
No Roon.  I want better audio quality.

Do you use Roon because of Tidal streaming?

Steve N.

Tidal integration into my library is one of the reasons. Others are the use of metadata and all the information it puts at my fingertips, and the ability to also use it with HQPlayer.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 30 Apr 2018, 09:48 am
STEVE i have read of the virtues of war over flac for years
Putting asside the meta data issues is this
What wave are you using
There are two I know of and the wav 64 is the betters
One ??
Flac I use is uncompressed and to be honest I cannot tell
Any wav from flac when I rip them
I use dB power amp
J river as well for conversion rips
As for roon I turn off all settings and stream to HQ
hq is set to none none in pcm as a pass though and dsm dsd as a pass through too
I use three PCs for playback
One a synology hack SAN with a full size Main board Zeon cpu
Player pc uses roon server and accesses the music drives and also has two one Tb drives
The second third pc is just hq player
I have tried usb and a few naa boards
Raspberry
HB
Nuc
all of the above are on many lps voltage busses
I do and have tried a few network isolation technics
One your suggestion in network isolater. I have offers that for a few people to get rid of there opticle
Isolaters. 
Some do have some advantages in some uses
At present I use the San and a usb doggle for networking control only
It sounds great.  But I do love tidal too and roon server may not be as good as the desktop app but it’s close
Lastly about roon was it sever or GUI
server is better by a margin over gui
Be it direct or streamed
 And if omen uses the roon combo and HQ roon server is a must
I know the new wave is data to dacs and usb is the enimy but I for one have not found network
To be better yet. Even Ina Msb sel 2 amd its own renderer
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 30 Apr 2018, 06:02 pm
STEVE i have read of the virtues of war over flac for years
Putting asside the meta data issues is this
What wave are you using
There are two I know of and the wav 64 is the betters
One ??

I only have one option with my version of DBpoweramp and XLD.  Was not aware of WAV64.

Quote
Flac I use is uncompressed and to be honest I cannot tell
Any wav from flac when I rip them
I use dB power amp
J river as well for conversion rips

I have always heard a difference with any other format than wav, even uncompressed FLAC and AIFF.  Each system is different.

Quote
I know the new wave is data to dacs and usb is the enimy but I for one have not found network
To be better yet. Even Ina Msb sel 2 amd its own renderer

The devil is in the details.  In order to get the magic that trounces USB, I need ALL of the ingredients:
1) fast reacting LPS for the router
2) modded router
3) good Ethernet cables
4) EMO EN-70e isolator
5) my Interchange renderer and LPS
6) Linn Kinsky controlling Minimserver  or Minimserver with BubbleUPnP as proxy
7) wav files

I can mod and tweak my USB interfaces until the cows come home (and I have) and never achieve what I get with my Ethernet interface.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 31 May 2018, 06:01 pm
After making a significant improvement in jitter on my Synchro-Mesh (22psec -> 8psec), I decided to investigate whether I could make an equivalent change to the Interchange and my Ethernet interface on the Overdrive SX DAC.

The good news is that I designed a change and it reduces jitter significantly for the Ethernet interfaces also.  This eliminates the slight "bloom" that you get with a little jitter.  It is squeaky-clean sounding now.

It's an inexpensive mod at $150 plus shipping and PayPal fee.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 9 Jun 2018, 02:20 am
Latest Interchange jitter plots with the latest mods:

Jitter distribution:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181067)

Jitter in the 10-12 psec range.

Jitter spectrum:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181068)

No spikes over 1.3psec, and nice even spectrum at very high frequencies.  Jitter in the audio range in the low Femtoseconds.

This latest version is very focused and clear now, no "echoes" or "halos".  Acoustic guitar is in the room with you.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: sbank on 1 Jan 2019, 07:51 pm
Just discovered, thanks to a European poster on What'sbest forum, that running BubbleUPnP as a proxy server with Minimserver improves the SQ even more.  You set proxy server inside BubbleUPnP and then select the Minimserver proxy rather than Minimserver for the music library inside Kinsky or Lumin control point.

Also, I am auditioning some really good Ethernet cables.  I was skeptical whether they would be an improvement on my CAT7 generic cables, but I was pleasantly surprised.  So far I have tested the WireWorld Starlight CAT8 and it is definitely better.  Much more live.  Next I will compare the Starlight Platinum CAT8.

Steve N.

Steve, thanks a bunch for that suggestion, "running BubbleUPnP as a proxy server with Minimserver improves the SQ even more.  You set proxy server inside BubbleUPnP and then select the Minimserver proxy rather than Minimserver for the music library inside Kinsky or Lumin control point." Just setup the proxy to run with my Lumin app, and immediately hear an improvement!

Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 5 Jan 2019, 06:03 pm
Steve, thanks a bunch for that suggestion, "running BubbleUPnP as a proxy server with Minimserver improves the SQ even more.  You set proxy server inside BubbleUPnP and then select the Minimserver proxy rather than Minimserver for the music library inside Kinsky or Lumin control point." Just setup the proxy to run with my Lumin app, and immediately hear an improvement!

I guess the Bubble server software is better.  Make sure you set Open Home and Gapless playback under the renderer tab.  This makes it better with Minimserver.

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 23 Feb 2019, 06:33 pm
Muy buddy from SOtM brought over an Ethernet cable to try:

https://sotm-usa.com/collections/high-performance-cables/products/iso-cat6-special-edition?variant=31573186188 (https://sotm-usa.com/collections/high-performance-cables/products/iso-cat6-special-edition?variant=31573186188)

It has a built-in filter in the cable.

I liked it much better as the cable after the isolator than my current Wireworld Platinum cable.  Better separation and clarity.  The current optimal config. is:

Router/Switch -> Wireworld 0.5m Platinum Ethernet cable -> EMO EN-70e isolator -> SOtM Ethernet cable -> Interchange Renderer

Steve N.
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: paul79 on 18 Mar 2019, 09:49 pm
Hi Steve,

Have you tried the new switch from SOtM? Any thoughts about the performance vs. the AQVOX?
Title: Re: Interchange Ethernet renderer is shipping - customer feedbacks here
Post by: audioengr on 18 Mar 2019, 10:04 pm
Hi Steve,

Have you tried the new switch from SOtM? Any thoughts about the performance vs. the AQVOX?

He has not been over yet with the SOtM switch.  Soon I think.