AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Vapor Audio => Topic started by: dpatters on 6 Mar 2015, 06:31 pm
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I would like to start a Perfect Storm thread that can stick to the original intent of Chris's post "Pulled the Trigger on Perfect Storm"
I believe this is a topic that many Vapor Owners are interested in including myself. My room can't handle a larger speaker then the Joule
but I really would love to follow the build and the new system Chris is putting together. Hopefully the discussion could stay on point this
time. Please...
Thanks,
Don P.
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I still want to see HT photos when they're up and running.
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Beautiful,
Thanks for restarting the thread.
I have actually hired a guy to do a rendering of my room, it is rather complicated, but he does some really cool work. I hope this will allow us to move forward with putting together the entire package.
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Beautiful,
Thanks for restarting the thread.
I have actually hired a guy to do a rendering of my room, it is rather complicated, but he does some really cool work. I hope this will allow us to move forward with putting together the entire package.
Chris,
You are welcome. I would sincerely hope we can keep this thread going and on topic. Thanks for jumping back on board Chris.
Don P.
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Since this is about Perfect Storm, I think I'll add a bit of history to explain how it got here.
When we first conceived the idea for Perfect Storm after the original Joule build, all we knew was which tweeter and which woofer we wanted to use. The best tweeter on the planet mated to the best 15" woofer we could find. The original idea was to use a pair of the midranges we use on Joule though that option proved problematic for a variety of reasons.
This is one of the early visions for Perfect Storm, before we arrived at the current Joule model with the transmission line. This drawing was created in August of 2013.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=116291)
It was going to be a two piece design but this particular layout would not accommodate a TL. But that wasn't the main reason we shelved this approach. The stacked ply method for that large cabinet was just too unpredictable and we weren't sure we could pull it off. So after a while, we scrapped that approach.
While all this was going on we continued to explore the possibilities of what we could do with the stacked ply construction technique. Early on Vapor's supplier of the CNC machined parts provided some pretty inconsistent pieces. They were basically using their CNC wrong but we didn't know it. That shop moved last year to a new location after the owner passed and they reopened in a new larger building. The new owner asked us if we'd come in, learn the machine and teach his new staff how to properly use it, and for doing so we'd get use of the machine gratis for a while. Nice deal! We were able to really dial the machine in and now we were getting beautiful, clean and consistent parts. So the idea that we might be able to do something larger seemed possible. So we scaled up Cirrus and made Derecho, a HUGE jump in the size and scope of a stacked ply cabinet. It was a proof of concept design mostly to see if a stack like that could be built. Needless to say, it worked. This was shown last year at Axpona.
(https://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/s960x960/10658928_791921090877006_6756846763837114336_o.jpg)
Right after that, we lost the shop. They just didn't want to deal with all the sawdust mess cutting all that ply created. They cut mostly plastic for signage. And just when we finally started getting consistent pieces!!! That really put a crimp in our style as well as our schedule. It took us 4 months of diligent searching to finally find a CNC shop that wanted to cut wood. It took a while but we finally got that machine dialed in as nicely as the previous one. So, we're behind, but back on track. At this point we're also looking at putting up a facility and having to deal with the county bureaucrats who repeatedly drop the ball on permits, etc, so that by the time we get them, it's below freezing. Great, one more wrench in the machinery. But enough about that.
We were finalizing Joule and the transmission line, and when we heard what that Audiotech woofer in the transmission line sounded like, we were sold on the idea of replicating that success into Perfect Storm. But what would it look like? We didn't initially start with the idea that it would just be a bigger version of Joule. There was the idea of placing a pair of RAAL 140-15D into a shallow waveguide baffle so that we could pair that directly with a single 8" midrange for example. There were many approaches evaluated. Here are a few of the sketches I spent many hours on and thinking about HOW to build them. You can see the Joule TL in the middle left edge.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=116292)
In the end, we finally decided to use a modified Derecho cabinet along with a scaled up Joule TL and arrived where we are today.
This is a 2D sketch of what we are currently assembling. It shows the custom faceplate that ties together the RAAL, the Accuton Cell midrange and the 8" midrange. There are also some other custom metal pieces that aren't shown, the outrigger feet for one.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=116295)
I'm excited to be finally building what we spent so much time designing. All that work is finally coming together in a monster of a speaker!!!
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Question Pete, in the last photo, what is the tall vertical chamber behind the woofer at the back of the cabinet?
It's not connected to the rest of the "line".
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Question Pete, in the last photo, what is the tall vertical chamber behind the woofer at the back of the cabinet?
It's not connected to the rest of the "line".
That's a void to host the crossover components . . . and maybe amplifiers for an active option down the road.
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Ahhh "roger that".
Thank you.
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Nice post Pete :thumb:
I'll make sure and put you up for a big raise :lol:
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I like the final design. It will be big, but I think it will be beautiful.
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This looks really interesting, but is the line long enough to truly be a TL?
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I like the final design. It will be big, but I think it will be beautiful.
When do yours arrive? I look forward to the results.
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This looks really interesting, but is the line long enough to truly be a TL?
Good question. Start to finish, the line is about 76" long and tapered approximately 10:1, occupying a volume of around 6.5 cubic feet.
That puts the line tuning right around 25Hz providing a smooth roll off starting around 30Hz with F10 in the low 20s.
Line tuning is determined by not only length, but the shape and total volume enclosed by the line.
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Pete,
Looks like a great design. I don't see a 94db 3 inch Accuton Cell midrange listed anywhere. Is this a new driver? ........sounds like it would be fast and super clear.....electrostatic like.
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Pete,
Looks like a great design. I don't see a 94db 3 inch Accuton Cell midrange listed anywhere. Is this a new driver? ........sounds like it would be fast and super clear.....electrostatic like.
It is new. We have the preliminary data sheets on it and of course it looks fantastic. It's just a smaller version of the C90 Cell mid. With 2nd order acoustic slopes on the crossovers, the driver overlap reduces the required sensitivity to reach the reference level set by the woofer. Because the 2" mid will only be covering a range from 800Hz to 2500Hz there will still be significant output from both the 8" mid and the RAAL in the region where the midrange is working allowing the smaller midrange to have up to 3dB lower sensitivity than reference.
Here's an idealized 3-way crossover with 800Hz and 2500Hz crossover points using all 2nd order acoustic slopes. The black line is reference level set by the woofer. You can see that the flat summation is provided by the midrange running 2.5dB below reference. So to meet the 94dB target the cell mid only needs to be 91.5dB at 1500Hz, and according to the data we have a couple dB of margin. The data shared with us shows a very smooth rising response starting at 400Hz and 91dB (well below where we'll be using it) reaching a peak sensitivity of 94dB at 3500Hz and then gently rolling off above that. It looks to be supremely easy to work with thanks to no hint of resonance until well out of band.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=116492)
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this looks yummy! when i got my Nimbus, the Joule were becoming the top of the line, now it seems that is the Perfect Storm occupying that pot..so, what's in the works for next year? :)...
Ah, as a side note, I purchased an Aaron Millennium 3 amp that sounds even better than the Wells Innamorata...:)
can't wait to see the pictures of a finished Perfect Storm!
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Ah, as a side note, I purchased an Aaron Millennium 3 amp that sounds even better than the Wells Innamorata...:)
This is VERY interesting...... No kidding????
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this looks yummy! when i got my Nimbus, the Joule were becoming the top of the line, now it seems that is the Perfect Storm occupying that pot..so, what's in the works for next year? :)...
Ah, as a side note, I purchased an Aaron Millennium 3 amp that sounds even better than the Wells Innamorata...:)
can't wait to see the pictures of a finished Perfect Storm!
What type of amp technology are they using Class A, A/B, D etc.
Their "Let's Rock" amp is pretty cool looking :icon_twisted:
(http://www.hifi.net/images/aaron-lets-rock-living-room-635.jpg)
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yeap, no kidding....the volume of my preamp doesn't get over 10 o'clock before it gets too loud in my listening room...the Aaron amp makes the paino and the strings sound soo real! great soundstage...it beats the Wells in one area...the height of the soundstage...when I play Mahler 5th, I feel like I'm a in a big concert hall....what a great gem this Millennium 3 amp is!!!
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What type of amp technology are they using Class A, A/B, D etc.
Their "Let's Rock" amp is pretty cool looking :icon_twisted:
(http://www.hifi.net/images/aaron-lets-rock-living-room-635.jpg)
Or gaudy, depending on your tastes or environment it's in... :o
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Or gaudy, depending on your tastes or environment it's in... :o
Yea, I'm with you.
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this looks yummy! when i got my Nimbus, the Joule were becoming the top of the line, now it seems that is the Perfect Storm occupying that pot..so, what's in the works for next year? :)...
Ah, as a side note, I purchased an Aaron Millennium 3 amp that sounds even better than the Wells Innamorata...:)
can't wait to see the pictures of a finished Perfect Storm!
I'm speechless, not only better than the Akasha, but the Innamorata as well? Is there a USA distributor? How much in US dollars? The wells amps sound so satisfying, I'd like to find out more about the Mill 3.
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I'm speechless, not only better than the Akasha, but the Innamorata as well? Is there a USA distributor? How much in US dollars? The wells amps sound so satisfying, I'd like to find out more about the Mill 3.
+1
The Aaron amplifier website lists the amp for 2590 euro which is about $2800...but enjoythemusic has an article about it and says it retails for $3950. :scratch:
Seems its been around a while but would love to know more.
Perfect Storm looks incredible by the way....15" woofers...oh yeah!
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+1
The Aaron amplifier website lists the amp for 2590 euro which is about $2800...but enjoythemusic has an article about it and says it retails for $3950. :scratch:
Seems its been around a while but would love to know more.
Perfect Storm looks incredible by the way....15" woofers...oh yeah!
The Euro has come way down since that article was written i'm sure.
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The Euro has come way down since that article was written i'm sure.
I thought the date was from about a year or so ago but looking just now it was from 2010.
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Currency exchange rates impact what audio costs a great deal. I believe back in very early 2003 the Canadian Dollar was 62 cents to the American Dollar and now it is about even. So what was an amplifier that was a little over $3k in the US in 2003 is now $5k. The Euro has also fluctuated but has gone the other way of late - http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/currency
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How about a few renders? Remember, that's a 15" woofer and the total height as pictured would be 61"
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117308)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117309)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117310)
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Thanks Pete.Improving what already is great is a good philosophy.I look forward to meeting you someday !
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Awesome looking as usual Pete . Is that Zircote? What kind of stain and what color paint?
Can't wait to see, and hopefully hear, these.
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Awesome looking as usual Pete . Is that Zircote? What kind of stain and what color paint?
Can't wait to see, and hopefully hear, these.
Those are just 3D renders. The actual speakers are still under construction. I took a picture of Ryan hiding behind the stack of cabinets sitting on a dolly. I'm sure he'll post the picture later. It's a really big speaker. It's very exciting to see what was merely a drawing actually taking shape. :thumb:
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Sorry If I missed it, but can these be bi-amped with an active crossover? Or, even with your passive crossovers?
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Yeah I knew they were renders. I use the render you did of the last pair of Joule Blacks you guys made as a screen saver. The veneer details on that render were awfully close to the pattern on the real speakers. Is that the case with these?
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Sorry If I missed it, but can these be bi-amped with an active crossover? Or, even with your passive crossovers?
We could easily make the proper modifications to accommodate the active crossover option, but they do come bi-wired so that the woofer section can be driven separately from the upper section.
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Yeah I knew they were renders. I use the render you did of the last pair of Joule Blacks you guys made as a screen saver. The veneer details on that render were awfully close to the pattern on the real speakers. Is that the case with these?
Yeah, that's just a veneer swatch over the surface. The guy who did the render is looking for a truly hi-res picture of some nice veneer to replace the lower res surface he's currently using.
And like Joule, any color combo with veneer or paint is possible.
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Ok. You guys know what type of wood you'll be using?
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How's this for scale, I'm 6'1" btw ...
The full official release about details of the Perfect Storm is still coming btw, these are all just teasers. I'm using the 3D renders to visualize paint/veneer combo's before I decide. I don't particularly care for the combo pictured, and have something totally different in mind. There are 2 pair being built right now, one a PS Black and one White. The Black pair will be in walnut burl with gunmetal paint very similar to previous Joule renders, it's the White pair which in undecided.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117414)
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Ok. You guys know what type of wood you'll be using?
Yes, we do . . . :green:
The first build is set and the second one will be soon enough. I don't recall the specific veneer on the first pair. The veneer is always up to the buyer, some of whom just defer to Ryan's choice of veneer.
Sometimes it's a really interesting veneer to work with, like camphor. Sanding it is a real treat. The aroma is awesome.
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Wow! That's impressive. You guys still on track for the Perfect Storm at AXPONA?
On a side note...what's the speaker in front of the PS? Looks like a floor standing Arcus.
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How's this for scale, I'm 6'1" btw ...
The full official release about details of the Perfect Storm is still coming btw, these are all just teasers. I'm using the 3D renders to visualize paint/veneer combo's before I decide. I don't particularly care for the combo pictured, and have something totally different in mind. There are 2 pair being built right now, one a PS Black and one White. The Black pair will be in walnut burl with gunmetal paint very similar to previous Joule renders, it's the White pair which in undecided.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117414)
Dayum, homie. Large and in charge.
My vote is for the white pair to be finished in ... white. Automotive finish, buffed out like a boss.
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On a side note...what's the speaker in front of the PS? Looks like a floor standing Arcus.
That's a custom job, smaller than the regular Arcus but same construction. It's actually a pair of cabs on top of each other. They're for a customer wanting the best possible monitor for sub integration, driver compliment will be the same as the Perfect Storm white.
BTW, the 'end caps' of the Perfect Storm bass bin aren't on yet because they get veneered first. But they're 1.5" thick with a 1/2" layer of our Inversion Layer material sandwiched in the middle, each end cap weighs just under 50 pounds each. They make incredible energy sinks, and soak up cabinet resonances like nothing else on the market.
I'll take some more detailed internal shots of the upper and lower cabs tomorrow, to show just how ridiculous the construction is.
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The render looked big but that pic really shows how huge they are! I'm 6'9" 280 and they would look pretty fricken big next to me.
I remember how much thump and presence the Auroras had when I listened to them, these speakers are gonna be able to wake the dead (if one was so inclined).
Listening to the deluxe 2010 reissue of SRV Couldn't Stand The Weather right now on my Vapor Breeze and they are killing it. Deep 3D Soundstage with incredible detail. A friend came over to watch some hoops tonight and couldn't believe I didn't have my sub on.
A 15" woofer with a TL cabinet is gonna be amazing.
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Perfect Storm progress report, any new pix?
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Perfect Storm progress report, any new pix?
Not yet. Veneer is going on the bass bins as we speak and the upper cabinets are next. To date, 5 bass bins have been assembled and 6 upper cabinets are prepped to the point that veneer can be applied.
Here's another render while the real thing is finished up.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=118560)
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Nice!
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Pete - thanks for vapor update!
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Ryan and Pete, would you guys consider offering the top portion of the Perfect Storm separately as a satellite speaker?
pawsman
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Ryan and Pete, would you guys consider offering the top portion of the Perfect Storm separately as a satellite speaker?
pawsman
Yes, we can and actually are doing that for a couple customers. Keep in mind the PS top section is almost 20" deep and 25" tall and weighs 75 pounds empty (approx. 100 pounds loaded up), they would make large monitors. But we do have other cabinet options into which we can load the same driver array.
Also, for the PS top section we have midrange specific 8" drivers from AudioTech and Accuton. Both companies however offer more mid-bass oriented versions, and would use those for stand-alone monitors, in order to get solid bass. If you have subwoofers, we can keep the midrange units in place as they still go down to 60hz range. Either option would make for some of the finest monitors available at any price.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=118560)
What kind of veneer is that ?
Looks fantastic....
V....
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Still working on the official release, and content for the website, there's just so much to talk about that went into the development and design. But this show flier I made hits the high points.
(http://www.vaporsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/PS_Print_Web.jpg)
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That's a nice show brochure Ryan. Those are some impressive specs, especially the sensitivity and load gives customers lots of options
for amplification!! Typo in next to last line (internally not internall)
I'm really glad they could never fit in my room :lol:
I love my Joules!!
Don P.
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Hopefully they make it to RMAF this year, I'd love to hear them. Especially since this will probably be the last year Pez and I do show coverage.
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Hopefully they make it to RMAF this year, I'd love to hear them. Especially since this will probably be the last year Pez and I do show coverage.
Tyson,
You guys do a great job with the coverage and I just wanted to thank you. Your show coverage on the Vapor Nimbus a couple of years ago
turned me on to Vapor and now I am the owner of the Joule Blacks that were shown last year at RMAF.
Best to you and Pez.
Don P.