AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: Brianportugal on 19 Nov 2014, 06:30 pm
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Has anyone heard the OmegaSuper XRS with either of these amps. Currently using A Primaluna Prologue 2 and Exposure 2010s2 but I know there is more. The Primaluna is very god but not focused soundstage. The exposure is very good as well but shrill. I love the speakers they are amazing. I use to use Spica TC50s, Spica Angelus, Apogee Centaur Minor, Silverline Minuet Supreme Plus, Dreamcatchers, Paradigm etc. These are by far the best I've heard/owned. Louis is a magician.
Thank you for your guidance.
Brian
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Hello Brianportugal,
Welcome to the Omega AudioCircle. I would go for the US made Decware Rachel over the Asian made Coincident. Decware specializes in building amplifiers, but sells speakers too. Coincident specializes in speakers, but sells amplifiers too - not likely built by them.
What Super XRS model do you have? 3XRS, 7XRS, Super Alnico XRS? Depending on what you have, another model Decware may be a better choice.
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?
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Rob,
Have you heard the latest Rachael?
No, but I have heard the Audio Boutique Artist which is a very similar layout to the Rachel. If there is someone who can come on here that has heard both the amps in question, it would certainly be better than my conjecture.
Based on my experience with Decware vs Tube amplifiers made in Asia, Decware is my hands down choice. Back in 2010 my reference system was an Audio Zone DAC 1, SE84C+, hempcone Omega Super 5 Monitors, and deepHemp sub. I brought in a highly touted Asian mono block amplifier (3 times the price of the SE84C+) and dropped it into the system. After a while the Decware went back in because I preferred it's sound - it was quicker and livelier than the Asian amp.
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Hello Brianportugal,
Welcome to the Omega AudioCircle. I would go for the US made Decware Rachel over the Asian made Coincident. Decware specializes in building amplifiers, but sells speakers too. Coincident specializes in speakers, but sells amplifiers too - not likely built by them
Coincident amplifiers are manufactured in Canada, by Coincident. That's what Coincident says, at any rate, I doubt they'd blatantly lie.
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I guess I should have made the reason for my question more clear.
Does your answer mean that you have not heard any Decware SE34 model?
(no ulterior motive, just curious)
The original question was about the Rachel, I said no. The Rachel is a completely different animal than the earlier SE34. Whether I heard any of the earlier models or not is a moot point.
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Coincident amplifiers are manufactured in Canada, by Coincident. That's what Coincident says, at any rate, I doubt they'd blatantly lie.
Can you point me to where they make that claim - I can't find it on their website. You would be surprised how little actual Canadian content in the way of parts and labour can be in a product and it be legally labelled "Made in Canada". The tube amplifiers that I have preferred over the years are Decware and Ideal Innovations. They build their amplifiers on their own premises using North American sourced parts where possible. There may be some minor parts that can't be sourced in North America in which case they have to source offshore.
If the Coincident Dynamo 34SE is made in Canada like an Ideal Innovations is, I'll eat my head. Once I have eaten my head, I may check into the Dynamo 34SE.....wait.....no.....that won't work. I'll eat my head after checking into the amp.
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http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/coincident/1.html
"a $1'299 Canadian-made Dynamo"
:dunno:
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On this page:
http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/about.htm
Coincident makes a big deal and is pretty adamant about saying that their speakers are made in Canada. No mention of the amps though which leads one to believe that perhaps they are made overseas.
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100% Decware
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http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/coincident/1.html
"a $1'299 Canadian-made Dynamo"
:dunno:
Reviewers can be mistaken. I personally believe the Coincident amp in question is made in China. They are just too "pretty" to be made here at that price point, and being the tube amp market is just a tiny niche in the home entertainment world, the argument that they make large quantities to keep domestic labour costs down just doesn't fly.
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Depending on what you have, another model Decware may be a better choice.
This statement that I made was brought to my attention, but was removed while I went and had lunch, but I will answer it anyway.
From what I am able to see by comparing the Rachel to the Artist, they are very similar even though developed independently of one another.
When I worked with Syd Beaumont of Ideal Innovations in developing the Artist, I wanted the Decware sound (based on my experience with the SE84 and the Zen Head) because I love it, and the first Artist out of the gate nailed it - hence I believe I have gotten as close to a Rachel as possible being they both use octal based output tubes wired in triode mode. That said, just start tube rolling either and you have a totally different amp.
My greatest experience with Omega speakers is listening to them through 3 generations of SE84. The SE84 will light up any current Omega I have heard hooked up to it, so I can wholeheartedly recommend the SE84 (unless you're into party volumes). If, however Brainportugal has older hempcone or fostex Super 5/3XRS, I would lean toward the Rachel for more power. Current Omega? save your money and buy the Super Zen at 900 bucks.
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I have a Decware Taboo MK II paired up with Omega RS7 speakers. Similar to the Rachel it's 6 watts, but a S.E.P. (Pentode) whereas the Rachel is a S.E.T. (Triode). The Taboo also requires a Preamp to get the most out of it in which I'm using a McIntosh C220, the pairing is excellent with lots of spank in the bass department.
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Can you point me to where they make that claim - I can't find it on their website. You would be surprised how little actual Canadian content in the way of parts and labour can be in a product and it be legally labelled "Made in Canada". The tube amplifiers that I have preferred over the years are Decware and Ideal Innovations. They build their amplifiers on their own premises using North American sourced parts where possible. There may be some minor parts that can't be sourced in North America in which case they have to source offshore.
If the Coincident Dynamo 34SE is made in Canada like an Ideal Innovations is, I'll eat my head. Once I have eaten my head, I may check into the Dynamo 34SE.....wait.....no.....that won't work. I'll eat my head after checking into the amp.
Aha, you may be right - on reading the coincident site again, they only state their speakers are made in Canada. Interesting.
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I own 3 Decware amps and I love them. You can't get more bang for the buck or a lifetime warranty anywhere.
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I own 3 Decware amps and I love them. You can't get more bang for the buck or a lifetime warranty anywhere.
Hi lancelock.
Which Decware models do you own?
I own the Decware SE84C+ 2wpc SET.
May I al so ask for the same price, what speaker you have?
If that's not too much to ask.
Guy 13 on planet Vietnam.
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There is a long thread on Agon and the Coincident Dynamo gets very high praise, "and according to this thread" can't be beat for the price. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1408839785&&&/What-s-the-greatest-bargain-in-SET-these.
I also recommend reading the review at 6 moons that is posted in the thread which gives the Dynamo plenty of accolades and states that it is indeed build in Canada http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/coincident/1.html.
After reading this thread I will be buying one for my soon to be delivered Super V's which are 97db efficient and should have no problem being powered by this amp according to many of the contributors to the thread.
Greg
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After reading this thread I will be buying one for my soon to be delivered Super V's which are 97db efficient and should have no problem being powered by this amp according to many of the contributors to the thread.
Not sure what speaker you have coming - are they Omegas? To my knowledge Omega has never made a Super V (Roman numeral).
Louis has made a Super 5 Monitor and Super 5XRS, but they were 93dB efficient, not 97.
Also, I have emailed Coincident in order to get to the bottom of the question: where is the Dynamo 34SE made? :scratch:
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GR Research Super V http://gr-research.com/super-v.aspx
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GR Research Super V http://gr-research.com/super-v.aspx
Thanks for that opnly bafld.
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Also, I have emailed Coincident in order to get to the bottom of the question: where is the Dynamo 34SE made? :scratch:
"Rob,
The chassis is made in Hong Kong but all the components are sourced all over the world with all assembly and QC done in Canada.
The amp is too good to be true but it is. We work on very small Mark ups and sell only direct. That is why we can offer it at $1299. Eventually we will have to raise the price since even though we sell large volume the profit margin is very skimpy.
No amplifier under $4000 is built as well or performs as well. It is a breakthrough achievement.
Best Regards,
Israel Blume- Pres."
Even though I'm not going to eat my head (or my words), I still think this amp might be a good proposition. Israel's response to my question was very fast, and on a Saturday yet. A good sign.
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Not sure what speaker you have coming - are they Omegas? To my knowledge Omega has never made a Super V (Roman numeral).
Louis has made a Super 5 Monitor and Super 5XRS, but they were 93dB efficient, not 97.
Also, I have emailed Coincident in order to get to the bottom of the question: where is the Dynamo 34SE made? :scratch:
I don't own nor have I heard the Omega line of speakers so was just explaining my interest in Dynamo being discussed. I have been reading with great curiosity on this circle because of my interest in full range drivers with low watt amplifiers, sets in particular. Guy 13 owns a similar speaker to the Super V and replaced the original speaker up top with an Omega and seems to be enjoying it. I thought Omega owners would be interested in the discussion on Agon and the review which I found very informative and positive on the Dynamo.
I will be interested in what the answer to your inquiry is but I'm pretty sure they are in fact made in Canada.
Greg
Rob, I see we have posted at the same time, thank you for confirming and from the man himself no less.
Take Care,
Greg
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I will be interested in what the answer to your inquiry is but I'm pretty sure they are in fact made in Canada.
Greg
Greg,
The answer is right above your post. By the way, thanks for the links - it certainly is an enthusiastic review. It would be nice to hear that amp with some Omegas.
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I have owned 4 Decware Amps and3 different versions of the Frankenstein from Coincident. Both companies are the biggest bang for the buck and both are owned by two high quality individuals. You cannot go wrong with either. Having said that, you sometimes can get magical synergy and the only way to know that is to listen to each amp and speaker combo in your room :-).
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Both companies are the biggest bang for the buck and both are owned by two high quality individuals. You cannot go wrong with either. Having said that, you sometimes can get magical synergy and the only way to know that is to listen to each amp and speaker combo in your room :-).
morganc,
What a great comment........ what everyone strives for.
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Here's a Decware SE84C+ Set for sale over at Audiomart.
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649160059-decware-se84c-amplifier/
Only 2 watts so I don't know how well it would work with Omegas but the price is right at $650.00.
Greg
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Here's a Decware SE84C+ Set for sale over at Audiomart.
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649160059-decware-se84c-amplifier/
Only 2 watts so I don't know how well it would work with Omegas but the price is right at $650.00.
Greg
It'll run any current Omega without a problem. Yes, it has only 2 watts per channel, so party volumes are not in the picture, but if you listen at sane volumes to music that doesn't have huge dynamic swings and crescendos like Stravinsky's Firebird, it will more than reward you.
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Sorry for the long delay
I have a new pair of Omega 3xrs . I am using a primaluna Prolog 2 and love the sound but want to try a Set amp.
Also saw Dennis had makes an amp inspire. What would you buy since I can't hear them all together?
Also need a dac under $600....
Brian
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Also my room is small 10x12
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Also saw Dennis Had makes an amp Inspire. What would you buy since I can't hear them all together?
Any of them would be an excellent match, just a matter of differences in tube type.
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Sorry for the long delay
I have a new pair of Omega 3xrs . I am using a primaluna Prolog 2 and love the sound but want to try a Set amp.
Also saw Dennis had makes an amp inspire. What would you buy since I can't hear them all together?
Also need a dac under $600....
Brian
For a DAC, take a look at DAC Magic Plus - under $600 new - around $400 used. One of the best bang for your buck DACs.
I have one of Dennis' Inspire amps along with his LP2 preamp. I love it. If you are interested in tube rolling, his will run with most pentode power tubes (KT150, KT120, KT90/99, KT88, KT77, KT66, 6550, EL34, 6L6, 6V6) and will take a wide range of driver (6922, 6DJ8, 7308 and 6CG7/6FQ7, 6N1P, 6N23P) and rectifier tubes (5AR4, 274B, 5R4GY, 5U4, 5Y3). I've never compared with other single ended amps however. There is a big thread about his amps over on AudioAficionado in the Cary section.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112414)
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That's a gorgeous integrated thankyou for your info on the dac Magic also heard good things about herus by reaonessence. I love streaming about to try tidal.
Brian
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That's a gorgeous integrated thankyou for your info on the dac Magic also heard good things about herus by reaonessence. I love streaming about to try tidal.
Brian
The inspire amp isn't integrated. It is a power amp. I use his Inspire LP-2 as a preamp. Here is a photo of the pair. The rectifiers in this shot are both Sophia 274B mesh plates. I ordered mine in Jaguar Carnival Red, a color he used on some Cary amps, but you can order in just about any color you want. He has the chassis powder coated with automobile finishes.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112441)
If you like streaming, consider the Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6. It can be found used now for ~$500. It is their NP-30 and DAC Magic Plus together in one box. The limitation is it will only go up to 24/96. They have a new Stream Magic 6 Version II that will handle 24/192, but it will cost you closer to $1000 new. Haven't yet seen used ones.
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Just as a little sidenote. Im currently using the Cambridge Dacmagic plus, cant really say if its a good buy or good dac since I havent comparet it to any other in my system, but it seems to be ok. The word of advise I have is to get a Cambridge ID100 docking station if you choose to stream, I use an IPAD 2 and the id100 taps out the digital signal and transfers optically it to the dac, i guess it can be used with pretty much any dac there is since it has several outputs, the downside is that with optical (atleast) it is no upsampling, on the other side; and i might be on a little thin ice here, but CDs are mostly 16/44 and upsampling means the converter is guessing what would be if 24/192, and i dont want that. I use WIMP for streaming, its called TIDAL in other countries than Norway (for obvious reasons not WIMP)
I chose the ID 100 over the Pure I 20 because it seems to be steadier and it will charge the ipad while docked, and it is suppose to be able to use between ipad and tv aswell, havent tried that though..
to the topic, go for Decware. you will be happy, not safe to bet on coincidents.. (too funny,,,,,... :P
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What do these Inspire amps cost? Comparable to Decware's SE ?
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I've been following this thread. For the amplifiers you guys are considering, you have reached a price vs performance plateau. To get a better amp, you are going to have to spend a bit more money, or sling solder and build a kit.
I'm familiar with most of the Decware line. (When I went to Zenfest regularly, I was a Chicagoan.) I have two favorites there. I really like the basic SE84C series. Two excellent WPC. But if I were looking for a VERY flexible amp, one that you can tube roll to any sound you want, you should consider spending a bit more. Consider the Mini Torii. It's four WPC. It's regulated. There are a lot of tubes available. I doubt it will fail for the next twenty years, because it's well made and not stressfully run. Price is $1800. Definitely several steps better than a lot of amps.
If you can solder, build a Transcendent Sound amp. Any of them. They are OTL, very reliable, and about the very best tube amps at any price.
Finally, I have to mention Music Reference. The smaller amps by Roger Modjeski are world class. I can't afford them, but I sure wish I could.
Steve
Edit: Lin, opnly bafld, can you add to this?
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What do these Inspire amps cost? Comparable to Decware's SE ?
Inspires run from ~$1000 - $1700 for stereo amps depending on design. He makes a couple of monobloc models that are going to be more.
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I've been following this thread. For the amplifiers you guys are considering, you have reached a price vs performance plateau. To get a better amp, you are going to have to spend a bit more money, or sling solder and build a kit.
I'm familiar with most of the Decware line. (When I went to Zenfest regularly, I was a Chicagoan.) I have two favorites there. I really like the basic SE84C series. Two excellent WPC. But if I were looking for a VERY flexible amp, one that you can tube roll to any sound you want, you should consider spending a bit more. Consider the Mini Torii. It's four WPC. It's regulated. There are a lot of tubes available. I doubt it will fail for the next twenty years, because it's well made and not stressfully run. Price is $1800. Definitely several steps better than a lot of amps.
If you can solder, build a Transcendent Sound amp. Any of them. They are OTL, very reliable, and amount the very best tube amps at any price.
Finally, I have to mention Music Reference. The smaller amps by Roger Modjeski are world class. I can't afford them, but I sure wish I could.
Steve
Edit: Lin, opnly bafld, can you add to this?
Yup, I own Rachel and an MT (that I'll be selling to fund some non-audio stuff). I was curious about a SE amp down down the road that will let me roll a lot of different tubes. I'll have to keep the Inspire in mind.
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Yup, I own Rachel and an MT (that I'll be selling to fund some non-audio stuff). I was curious about a SE amp down down the road that will let me roll a lot of different tubes. I'll have to keep the Inspire in mind.
How does the Rachel compare to the Mini Torii? I've always wondered how those two compared to eachother.
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I strongly prefer the Mini Torii. Take this with a grain of salt though. I've never met an EL34 amp that I liked. They all sound dull and lack slam to me. Too polite sounding, boring. And yes I've owned a few. I really tried to appreciate them.
Steve
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I strongly prefer the Mini Torii. Take this with a grain of salt though. I've never met an EL34 amp that I liked. They all sound dull and lack slam to me. Too polite sounding, boring. And yes I've owned a few. I really tried to appreciate them.
Steve
It's not the EL34s, it's the way they are driven that produces poor results with many EL34 amps.
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Suggestions Dave?
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I tried a single triode, an 12BH7A, when I first built my amp... Even with CCS loading it was just ok and I'd agree with you if I hadn't tried driving the EL34s directly using my 6SN7 Aikido preamp. Doing this made the amp much more clear and lively. The Aikido's output is a white cathode follower with the tube's grid connected to the power supply's B+ through a coupling cap in an attempt to cancel power supply noise. I think many EL34 SET amps (and SET amps in general, especially inexpensive ones) suffer from a driver section that isn't optimal. I can guarantee you my EL34 SET sounds nothing like you describe now... but it probably did when it was using the stock driver section.
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I agree with Steve F on the SE84 in the right system.
The MT sounds great, but I have mixed feelings on amps with a lot of tubes and it seems to be the most problem prone amp in the line up (at least from forum posts I have seen).
I also like Rachel (SE34I.4) and love that it can use all these output tubes ~ EL34, KT77, KT88, 6550, and 6L6.
BTW Steve I just picked up an RM-10 MKII*; should be here Monday. :banana piano:
*had an original RM-10 a couple of years ago
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@ opnly bafld,
Wow, and congrats! When you get tired of that MKII you know who to call. :D
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Sorry everyone for the delayed response!I have omega 3xrs and love the primaluna with them but want to try the decware. Not sure if I should do the Rachael or the zen ufo any guidance? My room is 11 x10 and I have a benchmark pre dac and listen exclusively to tidal.
Thank you all for your guidance
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Sorry everyone for the delayed response!I have omega 3xrs and love the primaluna with them but want to try the decware. Not sure if I should do the Rachael or the zen ufo any guidance? My room is 11 x10 and I have a benchmark pre dac and listen exclusively to tidal.
Thank you all for your guidance
I tried a first generation Rachel (before she had a name) thanks to a loan from Ziggy (Steve's cabinet builder, at least at that time) with my full range 91 dB/w/m speakers and amazingly it had (just) enough power for me (not a headbanger, in an average sized room), lots of tube palpability, but also very flabby bass, and somehow was injured (intermittent distortion). Earlier this year I sold a 40 wpc Prima Luna Dialogue Premium Integrated after 8 months of ownership. It was a fine piece, with sufficient power, a very modern tube amp with lots of options for output tubes (EL34, KT77, KT88, KT120, & 6550 - my favorite), and with the right tubes sounded better than my solid state gear, but with only a touch (not quite enough?) of the tube palpability I was after. But didn't need both and the solid state is easier to live with and being older had a lower resale value. Also considered, at Steve's recommendation, a ZMA amp, but that would have been $2000 more than the Prima Luna.
My single driver speakers use the "mighty" Fostex F200A (sadly no longer in production) that have AlNiCo magnets and thusly a warmer full bodied yet detailed sound. So I deemed that the palpability of the Rachel would, in the long term, be too much of a good thing.
Don't know how today's Rachel compares to the one I tried. Hope this helps.
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JLm what is your favorite? Which combination for omega do you like the best? What dac?
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JLm what is your favorite? Which combination for omega do you like the best? What dac?
Favorite what, tube amp? Omega speakers? I'm not the guy to ask. Omega has been very hard to audition without traveling hundreds of miles or purchasing, so the only ones I've ever heard were the original Fostex based 4, 6, and 8 inch bookshelf speakers from roughly 12 years ago when Louis presented at the MidWest Audio Fest. In 40 years I've only had the two tube amps mentioned above in my home.
Folks can give advice, obviously there are better or worse products and system synergy is a real phenomena. But you (once educated) are you're own best expert at what sounds good to you. I'm a bit of a "speaker guy" so I start by finding the best speaker for the given room (size, setup, finishes) and your tastes (musical genres, audio preferences, budget). Note that there is no perfect speaker. Then shop for amplification to best match the needs of the speakers.
Being a "speaker guy" I'm not much interested in the source. Gave up on vinyl 30+ years ago (couldn't stand the surface noise). A couple of years ago finally moved on from CDP to computer for transport and earlier this year replaced my old DAC. If you read the "blue collar" reviews and give up DSD/DXD (some would say it's mostly if not all hype), you'll find many very good and affordable DAC's. I ended up with a $500 Emotiva DC-1 DAC/pre/headphone piece from their professional series. The combination unit will work for a possible desktop system using active monitors.
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Brianportugal,
I am a Decware owner and former Coincident Dynamo owner. I've never owned or heard Omega speakers so I can't help you there, but Omega/Decware owners are everywhere here.
I am also a member of the Chicago Decware Appreciation Society (CDAPS), which is a made-up organization consisting of me and 3 other enthusiasts in the Chicago Suburban area ;-) I own the SE84CKCS (sans UFO upgrade, which I can hopefully have soon) and we have extensively compared it to the Rachael, Torii Mk III and Mystery amp. I have also directly compared the SE84CKCS with the Coincident Dynamo.
I'm going to lay it out here for you: the only reason I would ever buy a Rachael is if 2 watts weren't enough, and I couldn't afford a Torii or Mystery Amp. To me, the 2w Zen has the transparency and liquidity that the Rachael cannot quite match. No other Decware amp, in fact, can match it except the Mystery Amp which gets the closest to overall perfection, but still a tiny, tiny bit shy on transparency and layering. All of the CDAPS members agree. HOWEVER, this is only obvious under direct comparison. The Rachael is a fine amp.
Also, Israel Blume overstates the Dynamo. It is good, but the Zen is better. It is more transparent and it is quieter. When I owned the Dynamo I always had noise coming out of my right speaker.
I am happy to answer any of your other questions, if you wish.
Rob
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I agree with Hi-Fi but haven't actually heard a Rachel. I do have an EL34 SET and have tried a configuration very similar to the Rachel and the issue is the driver section, not the EL34s. El34s have a fairly warm character and can sound amazing but not with a single triode driver that adds to the "tubiness". If you use a very accurate driver with no distortion than an EL34 SET can be amazing. Electraprint has been designing EL34 amps for a long time and one of theirs uses a SS driver, for mine I use no driver at all as my Aikido preamp has enough of gain, very little distortion and robust output section. For my preferences an EL34 SET requires a very neutral and accurate preamp and/or driver to work out. If done this way an EL34 SET can be spectacular but used in a typical simple-as-possible SET amp it's overly warm, a bit slow and short on resolution.
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Rob, what speakers have you auditioned the Decware amps with?
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Hi JLM,
In my own listening room, I've auditioned the SE84 only with Hawthorne Sterling Silver Trios (97db), which I currently own. I've also heard the Coincident Dynamo, Atma-Sphere M60s with these speakers. Prior to the Hawthornes I had Tekton Lores which I drove with Red Wine Sig 15 and the Coincident.
In other rooms, I have heard Decware amps their own line of speakers (Monoliths and MG944) and on Zu Omens.
Rob
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Thanks rob it sounds like the zen ufo is the way to go. My room is small 10x11 is asymmetrical and I like simple music vocalists . Acoustic guitar , pop country jazz and never turn the volume past 9 o'clock. I have a benchmark dac pre blue jean speaker wire and audio quest Forrest interconnects. Any other suggestions for dac or cabling?
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One thought about DACs: Since you're listening exclusively to Tidal, you might want to consider the Meridian Explorer 2. Meridian has developed some technology (that I don't understand at all) that allows Tidal to stream in a way that the Explorer 2 can decode it and present it as master tape quality (24/192).
So far as I know, Tidal is the only streaming service employing the Meridian technology. The Explorer 2 is $300.
I have the original Explorer, and up-rezzing redbook to 24/176 or 192 sounds great, about 80% of the way from redbook to native master tape.
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Thanks Ozoid. This morning I read up on the meridian, sounds interesting. The relationship is fascinating. It sounds like the sound increases the clarity resolution and soundstage. The dac considerations are the Herus plus or consero, meridian ,mini aires (soon to be released) an schiiit bifrost. Any guidance for a dac using it with the decware zen ufo and omega 3xrs?
Rob which sound do you prefer of the amps and speakers combinations you've had? Is there anything you wished you kept?
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Brianportugal,
The Zen will serve you well with any kind of music. Truth be told I'm a big classic rock, hard rock, death metal fan and these 2 watts take me anywhere I wish to go. Their synergy with my Hawthorne SSIs is really special, and their match with Omegas are completely unquestioned.
Re: cabling... well, I just love cables. And I invest as much as I possibly can in them. Some think that's crazy, but I think it's important. Story about Blue Jeans.... my buddy has a Decware Rachael and some Tekton M-Lores with a VPI Scout Jr. front end. He bought some Grover Huffman interconnects to try out in place of his Blue Jeans, put them in and within 5 mins said "these Blue Jeans are a pile of garbage". He's very diplomatic. :-) He ended up replacing the Blue Jean SC with Grover as well. One night, before he picked up the Grover I brought over my Triode Wire Labs American SC to swap in, and the change was the largest audible improvement I've ever heard from a cable swap. Just sayin'.
I run mostly TWL in my setup, including all my power cords and interconnects, with some vintage Western Electric 16ga wire for speaker cables and a High Fidelity Cable CT-1E for digital. But there are many other great cables out there and I'd encourage you, at your own pace and budget, to explore some higher-end options. Sort your equipment first though. I do have a regret, and that's diving into cables before I even knew what my core components would be. I've bought Kimber Kable, Clear Day, Grover Huffman, High Fidelity Cable, Crystal Cable, Shunyata, Black Cat, Mapleshade, JW Audio, Coincident, Straight Wire and Triode Wire Labs cables at some point in my journey. I've auditioned ZenWave Audio, Sablon, Synergistic Research, Snake River Audio and Stereolab as well. If you're experimenting with DACs, amp/speaker combos, front end equipment etc., just get a complete loom of moderately priced cables or use whatever you currently have and search more heavily when you're satisfied with that part. There are some great DIY options as well, if you're industrious. I'm not so industrious :-) Don't ignore power cables or good conditioning, either, and if you can get a dedicated circuit to your rig. I recently bought a Furutech GTX-D Rhodium power outlet and am just floored by this device. Maestro outlets are good as well. I own a PI Audio UberBUSS for power conditioning which is great, but I was also satisfied with a Mapleshade power strip back in the day. I wouldn't turn these stones over any time soon, just enjoy your equipment and plot your upgrades after that.
If you are looking at a Schiit Bifrost DAC, know that they are planning to implement some trickle-down tech from their top-of-line Yggdrasil soon. I own the Gungnir and have been very pleased, but I do wish it had more detail retrieval. Hopefully the trickle-down tech fixes some of this. If you buy a current generation Bifrost don't expect to be blown away. It's a good all-rounder but I was never taken aback by it. And I like to be taken aback.
Sorry I could ramble all day. Just providing some thoughts.
Rob
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I'd consider the ifi Micro DSD for a budget DAC right now and I agree the Bifrost is only ok, not really better than small USB-powered DACs like the M2Tech...
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This is very helpful Rob, you are not rambling. Sop do you think the Zen SE84 UFO is better than the Rachel for the Omegas . The price is insignificant really. Once I have that confirmed what is your thought on a DAC? I'm in no rush, I have a Benchmark Dac1 PRE.
thanks for your thoughts everyone.
Brian
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Thanks Dave. I like Rob would like to be blown away
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Brian,
I would choose the Zen SE84 for reasons previously mentioned, but SPLs have to be a consideration and the 6w Rachael can provide that extra 4-5db. In your room, 10x11, it doesn't seem like you'd need it but only you can determine. It's nice to have that transparency, but when you want to crank it you've gotta have the juice. That's important!
The DAC market it hyper-competitive and so it would be helpful to know how much you're willing to spend. Over on the Decware threads TEAC has gotten some love and I've also read good things about Marantz' new "budget" DAC. If you help me with price I'm sure I could could provide a list of DACs that I personally find interesting. I've only had Schiit in my system, so I'm not really a good source for first-hand information.
Rob
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Brian,
When running a flea powered amp (10 watts/ch or less) I strongly recommend your DAC (or any source) to have at least 2 volts output. One of the best DACs I've heard under a grand is the Resonessence Labs Concero HD. It also has the bonus of having 2.4 volt output, can be USB, battery, or wall powered, and has coax input along with it's USB input.
The Schiit Gungnir looks really good with it's upgradability, and XLR output with up to 4 volts. Steve at Decware says the XLR input option on the Super Zen Select makes a big difference, and matched with the Gungnir might make a killer combo. If you order a Zen Select, go for the V-Cap and stepped attenuator option, and the XLR option if you go for the Gungnir.
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I can back CR on his Gungnir comments. I run balanced into the Zen (the transformer balanced inputs are +$650) and it has a nice and weighty presentation that makes you think you're listening to a more powerful amp. The Gungnir also sounds better via XLR since there is no hardware summing like on the single-ended outputs.
The V-Cap recommendation.... I think that's a matter of taste. There are some on the Decware forums that prefer the sound of the Jupiter Beeswax, including Steve Deckert. He talked me out of spending V-Cap money when I ordered mine.
Rob
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I'd go with the Jupiter copper foil caps. Once you have tried a copper foil cap it's hard to go back, but the V-Cap CuTf are too expensive, about 3x the price of Jupiter.
On the XLR thing, there are some advantages but if your source does not have a true balanced output there's no reason for it. It also requires two of everything, greatly increasing the cost of equipment. One of my customers was told the XLR inputs on the Zen are much better, but now he wants to upgrade (within the Decware line) and the amp he wants does not have balanced inputs as an option so now he spent a bunch of cash for an amp with an XLR input and and spent more on an XLR cable only to go back to single ended.
If you'll be using a SET amp and own a source that is balanced then the only good way to go from balanced to single ended is with expensive trafos ($650 option from Decware). This makes very little sense to me, if I was using a balanced source I'd want it amplified by an amp that is truly balanced as well which would mean push pull without a phase splitter... and such an amp can only take balanced inputs. Very few manufacturers make tube amps like this, Lampizator is the only one I'm aware of off the top of my head, and this is basically two SET amps run in parallel, each with one phase of the signal, and rejoined at the OPT. Or a SS amp with similar topology which is more common.
OTOH, some would say that the better CMRR of a XLR cable is worth it even if the amp is single ended but the truth is you are spending a lot of extra cash to solve a problem that doesn't exist in short IC runs in home environments 99.9% of the time. XLR was designed for long runs where interference is likely to be a problem, i.e. pro audio.
tl/dr... I think for most people it makes more sense to buy a DAC that is built with single ended outputs and use a single ended cable to connect the DAC to their single ended preamp/amp. :green:
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I think balanced inputs/outputs would make the amp far too expensive. I'm thinking the Zen 84UFO not the Mystery amp. My budget wont allow that. I'm looking to spend around $800 when the new group of Dacs are released. A DAC is the only item I don't think pays to buy used, does that make sense?
Brian
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I can back CR on his Gungnir comments. I run balanced into the Zen (the transformer balanced inputs are +$650) and it has a nice and weighty presentation that makes you think you're listening to a more powerful amp. The Gungnir also sounds better via XLR since there is no hardware summing like on the single-ended outputs.
The V-Cap recommendation.... I think that's a matter of taste. There are some on the Decware forums that prefer the sound of the Jupiter Beeswax, including Steve Deckert. He talked me out of spending V-Cap money when I ordered mine.
Rob
It would be nice if someone would come on here that has heard both V-Caps and Jupiter on the same (ZEN) amp and system that can comment on or describe the sound differences. What are the strengths of each. Steve recommended to me the V-Cap if I run digital and Jupiter if I run a turntable - in the context of running Omega speakers. The V-Cap has been my "go to" cap for the Zen amp for over five years. For the Rachel, however, Steve recommends the $200 Jupiter Beeswax II upgrade.
My first Decware was the basic SE84C+ which was my reference amp until I got my first Select in 2010 with V-Caps and CCE mod. No contest - the Select immediately became my reference. Everything improved, so I won't go into all the audiophile superlatives. To this day, that's the combo I use, V-Caps and stepped attenuator. Next time I order from Steve I'll get to hear the UFO, but other than that likely stay with what has worked for me and my customers.
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If you'll be using a SET amp and own a source that is balanced then the only good way to go from balanced to single ended is with expensive trafos ($650 option from Decware). This makes very little sense to me, if I was using a balanced source I'd want it amplified by an amp that is truly balanced as well which would mean push pull without a phase splitter... and such an amp can only take balanced inputs. Very few manufacturers make tube amps like this, Lampizator is the only one I'm aware of off the top of my head, and this is basically two SET amps run in parallel, each with one phase of the signal, and rejoined at the OPT. Or a SS amp with similar topology which is more common.
OTOH, some would say that the better CMRR of a XLR cable is worth it even if the amp is single ended but the truth is you are spending a lot of extra cash to solve a problem that doesn't exist in short IC runs in home environments 99.9% of the time. XLR was designed for long runs where interference is likely to be a problem, i.e. pro audio.
tl/dr... I think for most people it makes more sense to buy a DAC that is built with single ended outputs and use a single ended cable to connect the DAC to their single ended preamp/amp. :green:
I actually agree with you, Dave. It's hard to make sense of it. As they say, however, "you can't choose who you love", and if you end up owning and loving a DAC that runs balanced, well, you want to be prepared to run it that way, or at least have the option. For me, it really was a decision that boiled down to two things: a) you don't know what's best unless you hear it, and b) it's nice to keep options open for future equipment. I realize not everyone will spend $650 for what amounts to curiosity and contingency, but I did...
I still feel like I made the right choice. What happens if the next DAC-du-jour is balanced, but the single-ended output implementation sucks and I've only got a single ended amp? Doesn't matter to me, I'm prepared! Or what if I had a balanced amp with crappy RCA input conversion, but the hot DAC was single ended? I'm not in that boat either. This way, I've left all these scenarios in the hands of Steve Deckert to solve, and I'm ok with that ;-)
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I think balanced inputs/outputs would make the amp far too expensive. I'm thinking the Zen 84UFO not the Mystery amp. My budget wont allow that. I'm looking to spend around $800 when the new group of Dacs are released. A DAC is the only item I don't think pays to buy used, does that make sense?
Brian
Brian
I am referring to the Super Zen Select when I make my recommendation, not the Mystery Amp.
If you listen primarily to 16/44 then a used DAC would make a lot of sense. The Audio Sector NOS DAC is no longer made, but if you can find a used one, you will score big time. For CD quality, I've never heard a better digital front end, regardless of price. Bear in mind it has no XLR out, but it's synergy with the Zen amp is nonetheless amazing.
The Audio Zone DAC 1 is essentially the same DAC as the Audio Sector (the two companies are connected) and they are still available at $995. Those come up used from time to time. The USB input is the way to go with either.
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Thanks Rob. What is the difference between the SE84CKCS and the SE84CKC? Which one is everyone raving about? what is sonically gained or is it just the meters?
thx
Brian
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Thanks Rob. What is the difference between the SE84CKCS and the SE84CKC? Which one is everyone raving about? what is sonically gained or is it just the meters?
thx
Brian
CKCS is the Select (hence the "S") and CKC is the basic. The Select has more options available for it plus the nicer chassis and the meters. If the ability for certain options, chassis, and meters aren't important, then I'd go for the basic and save about $300. The (stock) Zen Select at $1295 will sound the same as the basic Zen at $995. The Select starts opening the gap when certain options are added.
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I own a Rachael and Rob speaks the truth. Zen is better. Not by a lot but it just has the best transparency I have heard out of the Decware line. With balanced inputs, I believe it to be even better. I am interested in hearing the UFO transformers.
That said, I felt I needed the additional watts so I went with the Rachael. I have been playing around with tubes and cables and at times felt I was getting close to what I have heard in the Zen, but just not quite there.
I do feel that both the Rachael and Zen run out of gas on some bass heavy music. The Torii or the Mystery amp have more in this regard. The Mystery amp is tops in nearly every category, but is also 5 times the cost of the Zen.
I would love to hear Omega speakers with Decware amps.
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I own a Rachael and Rob speaks the truth. Zen is better. Not by a lot but it just has the best transparency I have heard out of the Decware line. With balanced inputs, I believe it to be even better. I am interested in hearing the UFO transformers.
That said, I felt I needed the additional watts so I went with the Rachael. I have been playing around with tubes and cables and at times felt I was getting close to what I have heard in the Zen, but just not quite there.
I do feel that both the Rachael and Zen run out of gas on some bass heavy music. The Torii or the Mystery amp have more in this regard. The Mystery amp is tops in nearly every category, but is also 5 times the cost of the Zen.
I would love to hear Omega speakers with Decware amps.
In the VERY near future, I will get to be one of the lucky ones with this pairing. I have some Omega Super 3XRS's on order and hope to have them soon. I will be getting a Decware SE-84UFO to go with them. Cannot wait! Gotta save the money though so in the meantime, I am going to pair the Omega's with a TPA 3116 from FleaWatt. Heard great things about them.
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It would be nice if someone would come on here that has heard both V-Caps and Jupiter on the same (ZEN) amp and system that can comment on or describe the sound differences. What are the strengths of each. Steve recommended to me the V-Cap if I run digital and Jupiter if I run a turntable - in the context of running Omega speakers. The V-Cap has been my "go to" cap for the Zen amp for over five years. For the Rachel, however, Steve recommends the $200 Jupiter Beeswax II upgrade.
My first Decware was the basic SE84C+ which was my reference amp until I got my first Select in 2010 with V-Caps and CCE mod. No contest - the Select immediately became my reference. Everything improved, so I won't go into all the audiophile superlatives. To this day, that's the combo I use, V-Caps and stepped attenuator. Next time I order from Steve I'll get to hear the UFO, but other than that likely stay with what has worked for me and my customers.
Well I have a bit of experience with this that I'd like to share. A few months ago, I had my SE84CKCS upgraded to Jupiter Copper Foils. Previously my amp had the Jupiter Beeswax which are aluminum based. Even if everything was equal or the same, the Jupiter Copper caps should be superior to the aluminum beeswax just based on copper being a better conductor. But Jupiter invested over 3 years in the development of the Jupiter Copper Foils to make sure they were just right. It is their top of the line and its worth every penny imo. It is also the cap that Steve uses on his ZenMystery amp and Torii Monos. My friend who's also an audiophile has the Torii MK3 with the V-Caps and we both agree that the new Jupiter Copper Foils are the real deal. To my ears, it is just a more refined cap on all levels when compared to the Beeswax. The regular beeswax was already on a similar level to the V-Caps ( beeswax might actually be more detailed) and even Steve prefers Beeswax on the Super Zen over the V-Caps.
With all this said, the new UFO transformers is what has me really excited. Most tube audiophiles knows that the ouput transformers are the most important component on the amp with the signal caps and power supply next. After analyzing over the details on his forum and reading some early testimonial from Seikosha, I've just sent my amp to Decware to have them installed. So once I get them back I'll be in a unique position to give some feedback since my SE84CKCS will have both the Jupiter Copper Foils and UFO transformers inside.
Kevin
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CKCS is the Select (hence the "S") and CKC is the basic. The Select has more options available for it plus the nicer chassis and the meters. If the ability for certain options, chassis, and meters aren't important, then I'd go for the basic and save about $300. The (stock) Zen Select at $1295 will sound the same as the basic Zen at $995. The Select starts opening the gap when certain options are added.
I agree with everything you said CR except I'll add that even the stock Zen Select might be bit more refined soundwise compared to the basic Zen. This was one of the major questions for me over 2 years ago when I was debating between the basica Zen and Select. After reading over the forums and talking to Steve this was what I gathered because the basic Zen used a bias switch in front of the amp which adds some flexibility to the amp. However this added flexibility does add an extra variable to the signal path/sound. It is not as pure and simple as the Zen Select. Steve voiced his Zen Select in between the 2 bias settings of the basic Zen. There is also a toggle switch in front of the Zen Select but its used for toggling between RCA 1 and 2 inputs or in my case RCA and XLR inputs.
Kevin
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Thanks Kevin, I forgot about the bias switch.
My Select was in the build queue when Steve came out with the Super Zen (the basic came first), so he made mine a Super Zen Select, but with the white top without meters (the Select with black top and meters came later). Mine also doesn't have the dual inputs in the true sense of the word, or a switch, but the second set of inputs is for running it as a straight power amp. Possibly the simplest Zen Steve ever built. I believe the Zens with the UFO OPT have a switch to choose between 4 and 8 ohm, so between the input selector and impedance switch there's 2 switches where there was none before. The Basic black Zen has 3 switches: bias, impedance, and inputs.
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Yes, the SE84UFO does have switches just forward of the speaker outputs to select 4 or 8 ohms. I am embarrassed to say, however, that I cannot hear any difference through the Omega Alnico monitors. For what it's worth I have them set in the back position.
I know the idea is to set the Ohm switch by ear, but if I can't hear a difference, which setting "should" work best with the Alnicos?
On the other hand, not at all difficult to hear the difference between the two bias settings.
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Yes, the SE84UFO does have switches just forward of the speaker outputs to select 4 or 8 ohms. I am embarrassed to say, however, that I cannot hear any difference through the Omega Alnico monitors. For what it's worth I have them set in the back position.
I know the idea is to set the Ohm switch by ear, but if I can't hear a difference, which setting "should" work best with the Alnicos?
On the other hand, not at all difficult to hear the difference between the two bias settings.
When switching the output impedance with the transformer, the lower impedance option will present a higher impedance load to the output tube, and should give you better bass response (because of more damping from the transformer) and lower power output. Steve uses a pretty high primary impedance on his output transformers already, so that may be why you don't really notice a difference between the settings.
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On the other hand, not at all difficult to hear the difference between the two bias settings.
Ditto here. Six years ago when I had my SE84C+ the one bias setting had a more dynamic, lively sound, and the other setting more 3D and ethereal. I always gravitated to the latter because I value 3D soundstage and tone above all. :D
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When switching the output impedance with the transformer, the lower impedance option will present a higher impedance load to the output tube, and should give you better bass response (because of more damping from the transformer) and lower power output. Steve uses a pretty high primary impedance on his output transformers already, so that may be why you don't really notice a difference between the settings.
After talking to Steve the other day regarding this UFO mod, the flexibility of having both 4 and 8ohm impedance on same amp was just an afterthought and a bonus. The real emphasis was on the overall sound quality and how much flatter the frequency response was and the extension on both ends. Its a much better transformer made to a much higher level of precision, thus the increase in price of the amps. Basically he not only improved on his already excellent transformers but he also managed to cram both of the Zen's 2 transformers ( stock and optional ) into one. Now the Zen amp's audio potential is not only taken up another notch but the amp itself is more flexible with different speakers. A brilliant move.
Kevin
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Thanks Kevin, I forgot about the bias switch.
My Select was in the build queue when Steve came out with the Super Zen (the basic came first), so he made mine a Super Zen Select, but with the white top without meters (the Select with black top and meters came later). Mine also doesn't have the dual inputs in the true sense of the word, or a switch, but the second set of inputs is for running it as a straight power amp. Possibly the simplest Zen Steve ever built. I believe the Zens with the UFO OPT have a switch to choose between 4 and 8 ohm, so between the input selector and impedance switch there's 2 switches where there was none before. The Basic black Zen has 3 switches: bias, impedance, and inputs.
All of his amps with the new UFO transformers will have an impedance switch near the speaker binding post ( one for both L and R) and this is part of the transformer design and won't add anymore variable to the sound according to Steve. Although there are 2 impedance taps on same transformer, new UFO are made to a much higher standard with emphasis on sound quality and thus the positives far outweigh the insignificant and minor negative of having more than 1 tap on same transformer. The only other switch on my Zen Select is in the front for toggling between the RCA and XLR balanced inputs. Still a very simple and pure design while retaining the flexibility of the dual UFO impedance for different speakers.
Kevin
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Thanks, Kevin & Nailbunny. Now that I know what to listen for, I'll concentrate on the bass and see if I can discern a difference. Very glad to know there isn't a "right" position.
After six weeks, it and the Omegas are still opening up!
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Thanks, Kevin & Nailbunny. Now that I know what to listen for, I'll concentrate on the bass and see if I can discern a difference. Very glad to know there isn't a "right" position.
After six weeks, it and the Omegas are still opening up!
Yep, in tube audio, there is seldom a 'correct' setting. The option that gives the most power often also produces the most distortion. Transformers that produce the widest frequency and support high power output almost always have more inductance, causing upper most frequencies to roll off a bit, same goes with when you use the 4 ohm output instead of the 8 ohm output on the transformer. Some people love the type of distortion single ended tube amps produce (since it's almost all even order harmonics) and some people don't like bright amps, but love tight bass.
The point is that everything has tradeoffs (though in many cases, these may be desirable). Happy listening :)
*Random unrelated piece of advice: Many people spring for expensive upgrades to their already great equipment, but it would almost always be better to get your listening room treated instead. It really makes a much bigger difference than things like capacitor upgrades, etc.
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After talking to Steve the other day regarding this UFO mod, the flexibility of having both 4 and 8ohm impedance on same amp was just an afterthought and a bonus. The real emphasis was on the overall sound quality and how much flatter the frequency response was and the extension on both ends. Its a much better transformer made to a much higher level of precision, thus the increase in price of the amps. Basically he not only improved on his already excellent transformers but he also managed to cram both of the Zen's 2 transformers ( stock and optional ) into one. Now the Zen amp's audio potential is not only taken up another notch but the amp itself is more flexible with different speakers. A brilliant move.
Kevin
Yep, Transcendar makes a good transformer. I immediately recognized the ones he used in his UFO change because I ordered the same custom transformers a few months ago from them (their custom transformers look different from the pictures on their website, but look identical to the ones in the Zen user manual). I'm also pretty certain the ones he used before were made by Edcor, since some of mine look exactly like the ones he used to use. Almost all transformer makers have their own look from their design type, so it's pretty easy to recognize them once you've ordered from several people.
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A bit late to this thread as I've only just registered! I've been using a dynamo for nearly a year now and it sounds good. I will hopefully be ordering two zen se84ckcs amps in the new year though as from what I have read they should be a step up sound wise. I will pair these with a set of super alnico monitors, I'm using dm946 speakers at the moment, though I will definetly keep those. I haven't heard a rachel so can't comment on that versus a dynamo though.
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A bit late to this thread as I've only just registered! I've been using a dynamo for nearly a year now and it sounds good. I will hopefully be ordering two zen se84ckcs amps in the new year though as from what I have read they should be a step up sound wise. I will pair these with a set of super alnico monitors, I'm using dm946 speakers at the moment, though I will definetly keep those. I haven't heard a rachel so can't comment on that versus a dynamo though.
Why would you order two?
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Why would you order two?
He probably wants to bridge them for more power.
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He probably wants to bridge them for more power.
That's what I thought, but it's not the greatest idea. It puts the output tubes in parallel, and both the output transformers too. Always far worse than a single transformer. What it does best is sell twice as many amps. Much better off getting the Rachael if he's already buying from Decware. Although, tbh, a single SE84CKCS will have enough power for the alnico monitors unless you like your music very loud.
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Nailbunny7 is correct. You only need one SE84CKCS to do the job if you're not into party volumes.
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I have read that but thought that each could be wired in series? Two would allow me to biamp the dm946, mono either these or my intended omega's or run the music room or tv room systems in a purist fashion. Two to me would provide more options and fun! My other half liking music I don't and vice versa would allow me to retreat to the man cave while she listens to her Bon Jovi :-p
is there a real loss of transparency if run in mono? Some say yes, some say no?? Also XLR over single ended? As my main digital source has these is it worth the extra £400?? Questions, questions, though thanks for any input!!
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It's been years since I kept up with Decware, but the XLR option cost more than my DAC/pre! and the recommended options almost double the price of the amp!
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I have read that but thought that each could be wired in series? Two would allow me to biamp the dm946, mono either these or my intended omega's or run the music room or tv room systems in a purist fashion. Two to me would provide more options and fun! My other half liking music I don't and vice versa would allow me to retreat to the man cave while she listens to her Bon Jovi :-p
is there a real loss of transparency if run in mono? Some say yes, some say no?? Also XLR over single ended? As my main digital source has these is it worth the extra £400?? Questions, questions, though thanks for any input!!
There isn't really any reason to get XLR over single ended RCA unless your DAC outputs audio natively through XLR (having balanced signals summed into single ended is almost always worse). But if your DAC's output is the same for both XLR and single ended RCA, just go with the RCA option. Adding the balanced option to the decware amp requires using a balanced transformer to the signal path, which costs a lot, while the only benefit is being able to accept balanced signals (DACs like the Schiit Mjolnir outputs balanced signals natively, so it might be of benefit there, but I still really doubt you could hear a difference). Basically, I think the money would be better spent on treating your room acoustically (something most people don't do, even though it makes a gigantic difference over expensive things)
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Thanks Nailbunny,
I have never gone the balanced route and the consesus of opinion seems to back you with these amps. It seems the more purist the better seems to be the way, which suits me to be honest!
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Thanks Nailbunny,
I have never gone the balanced route and the consesus of opinion seems to back you with these amps. It seems the more purist the better seems to be the way, which suits me to be honest!
Yep, less transformers is always a good thing. No transformers would be best (if only tubes had low enough output impedance not to need them...). The Transcendant Sound amps do this, but you have to be ok with lots of feedback being used in the circuit (not as bad as everyone makes it sound) and buying a few hundred dollars worth of tubes every so often. Those ones also double as room heaters.
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Had some Croft otl's with loth-x horns years ago. That was a great system. I only moved it on because the amps were so unreliable. Probably my favourite system I ever had! Definitely better than the more expensive Leben system I had after that!