AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Guy 13 on 19 Dec 2012, 10:37 am
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Hi Danny and all Audio Circle members.
I know this subject was mentioned/discussed sometime ago,
but I would like to know if my reasoning makes sense.
The spikes at the bottom of a loudspeaker are to avoid vibrations to be transmitted to the floor and/or to the speakers from other sources of vibration.
Right ?
Then, why this set up (Below) would not work or would not efficiently diminish the vibrations from the bottom subwoofer to the upper coaxial driver.
If it works for the floor, why would it not work for the coaxial on top ?
Or, of it won’t work or won’t do much to diminish the transmission of vibrations, can it have negative effects on the sound of the coaxial driver ?
Guy 13
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=72496)
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Guy, spikes are used to couple, not decouple/isolate.
I think that making the top driver baffle solid with the bottom subs would of course couple more effectively than spikes.
I do wonder though, in situations where speakers are spiked to the floor, would it be better to bolt them down to the floor? I don't know. I've never heard of anyone trying or talking about that.
Trying to bolt the speakers to the concrete or joists beneath them would be not that hard in comparison to building an entire dedicated room, or some of the other extreme measures we take for better sound :)
Steve.
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Guy, spikes are used to couple, not decouple/isolate.
I think that making the top driver baffle solid with the bottom subs would of course couple more effectively than spikes.
I do wonder though, in situations where speakers are spiked to the floor, would it be better to bolt them down to the floor? I don't know. I've never heard of anyone trying or talking about that.
Trying to bolt the speakers to the concrete or joists beneath them would be not that hard in comparison to building an entire dedicated room, or some of the other extreme measures we take for better sound :)
Steve.
Hi Steve and all Audio Circle members.
If I understand you correctly,
the spikes are for coupling (Mating) the enclosure to the floor,
so the floor act as a vibration absorber,
the vibrations are damped by the floor,
if the floor is rigid enough, like a concrete floor,
that's what I have.
But if I even think of drilling holes in the floor of my wife's house,
she will throw me down the fourth floor,
the fourth floor is where my listening room is.
Well, so much for that idea.
Thanks.
Guy 13
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Guy, your are so funny with your wife fear! :lol:
Thanks for brightening my day! :thumb:
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Guy, your are so funny with your wife fear! :lol:
Thanks for brightening my day! :thumb:
Hi Hank and all Audio Circle members.
My Vietnamese wife love me so much,
if she throws me down the fourth floor,
she would put a mattress so I won't hurt myself.
Now that I think of it, the reason she would put a mattress to absorb my fall,
it's because she needs me to help her with her business.
Guy 13
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Hey Guy do you have carpet over the concrete floor ? If so consider Herbies products right here on AC.
charles
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Guy 13,
We will definitely needs to see pictures of your new listening room :thumb:
Edit: Sorry for using the wrong name.
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Hey Guy do you have carpet over the concrete floor ? If so consider Herbies products right here on AC.
charles
Hi Charles and all Audio Circle members.
Yes a have a thin carpet (See picture below) and an IKEA under carpet
on a ceramic floor and with 12" of armored concrete underneath.
I just had a look at Herbies website, nice products.
I might buy some of those products, of course, after robbing a bank.
Nice products, look well designed and made, but a little on the expensive side.
Thanks for the link.
Guy 13
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=72554)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=72555)
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Guy 13,
We will definitely needs to see pictures of your new listening room :thumb:
Edit: Sorry for using the wrong name.
Hi persisting1 and all Audio Circle members.
Pictures already posted.
No problem for using the wrong name, I have been called worst name than that.
Guy 13
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Hi all Audio Circle members.
My wife warned me not to post any pictures of my " pig style " listening room before I do a good clean up.
I don't think it's that bad, but I will not take any chances and I will clean up, then take some pictures, so you can see my set up.
Please be patient, pictures on the making,
then they will go thrue censoreship (By my wife) then, if approved,
they will be posted.
Guy 13
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Hi all Audio Circle members.
Yes, I got the go ahead from my wife, after a little clean up.
Here it is and please no comments on the wheels,
at 64 years old, I cannot lift all by myself the 150 pounds each V1.
Once I have found all the ideal parameters,
I will either install spikes or something else.
By the way, why Danny stayed quiet and did not comment on this subject?
It's not the first time he does that, he let other people comment... For him.
I have GR Research speakers bought from him, therefore, I wouild like to have his opinion on his speakers, even if they are modified.
Guy 13
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=72556)
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Nice room Guy.
I was searching for people with speakers bolted to the floor and found that northwardacoustics build systems with the speakers held between floor and ceiling and super highly tensioned cables:
http://www.dhorg.net/~astudio/gallery.htm
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Nice room Guy.
I was searching for people with speakers bolted to the floor and found that northwardacoustics build systems with the speakers held between floor and ceiling and super highly tensioned cables:
http://www.dhorg.net/~astudio/gallery.htm
Hi Steven (stevenkelby) and all Audio Circle members.
My floor is armored concrete,
no way I can touch that floor with anything
or my wife will kill me, it's her house and it's brand new.
So we have to go to plan B, if there is such a thing as plan B ?
Maybe that's plan B:
What I could do is slip under the speakers a thick slab (5cm) of marble (It's inexpensive here in Vietnam) with or without some Bernies disc or equivalent.
Attach with heavy duty bolts the speaker base to the marble slab.
All that is not free and I am on a very strict budget these days.
Well, I will keep looking.
Thanks for the link.
Guy 13
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When I made stands to stack my Quads (six inch wide panels, cut from three sheets of 3/4" MDF glued together, on each side of each pair), I made them almost eight feet tall so that I could spike not only the bottoms of the stands to the floor, but also the tops to the ceiling. But now I'm in a house with ten foot ceilings!
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When I made stands to stack my Quads (six inch wide panels, cut from three sheets of 3/4" MDF glued together, on each side of each pair), I made them almost eight feet tall so that I could spike not only the bottoms of the stands to the floor, but also the tops to the ceiling. But now I'm in a house with ten foot ceilings!
Hi bdp24 and all Audio Circle members.
6 inches wide panels by 8 feet tall.
Excuse me, but I really ca't figure out what you mean.
Would you have a picture of your set up?
Either that or you try to explain your set up with different words
in a different way.
I understand quite fast, when you explain for a long time. (LOL)
Guy 13
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Hi Guy. Well, you know what the old Quads ("57's") look like, right? Electrostatic panels 29" tall by about 34" wide, and varying in depth from a couple of inches at the top to about eight inches at the bottom. To stack them, people usually have the bottom pair near the floor and the top pair centered at ear level (that's how Mark Levinson made the stands for his HQD, acronym for Hartley-subs/Quad-mids/Decca-ribbon tweeters). I, instead, mounted the bottom pair at ear level and the top pair at standing ear level (I don't like looking down at the image, and often get up to dance or, uh, play air guitar). The stands are mounted on the sides of the Quads, one 3-layer MDF panel (2.25") six inches deep/wide on each side of each speaker until reaching about five inches above the floor, where the MDF makes a right angle front and back to form the two foot deep (or wide, if you're looking from the side) feet/legs. The panels (four, one on each side of left and right pairs) are all separate, with a 3/4" thick/six inch deep MDF brace below, between, and above the two speakers on each side, dado'd into the side panels, bolts passing through small holes in the side panels and into the braces, and the side of each Quad bolted onto each side panel. Once they are assembled, they CANNOT be moved, spikes or no spikes!
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Hi Guy. Well, you know what the old Quads ("57's") look like, right? Electrostatic panels 29" tall by about 34" wide, and varying in depth from a couple of inches at the top to about eight inches at the bottom. To stack them, people usually have the bottom pair near the floor and the top pair centered at ear level (that's how Mark Levinson made the stands for his HQD, acronym for Hartley-subs/Quad-mids/Decca-ribbon tweeters). I, instead, mounted the bottom pair at ear level and the top pair at standing ear level (I don't like looking down at the image, and often get up to dance or, uh, play air guitar). The stands are mounted on the sides of the Quads, one 3-layer MDF panel (2.25") six inches deep/wide on each side of each speaker until reaching about five inches above the floor, where the MDF makes a right angle front and back to form the two foot deep (or wide, if you're looking from the side) feet/legs. The panels (four, one on each side of left and right pairs) are all separate, with a 3/4" thick/six inch deep MDF brace below, between, and above the two speakers on each side, dado'd into the side panels, bolts passing through small holes in the side panels and into the braces, and the side of each Quad bolted onto each side panel. Once they are assembled, they CANNOT be moved, spikes or no spikes!
Hi bdp24 and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks, I got a better idea of what you are talking about,
however, like they say:
I picture is worth a thousand words.
Guy 13
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Yup Guy, I'll see if I can post 'em. I haven't posted pics here yet---I'm too old to care much about computer stuff. Time is running out, and there's too much Bach I want to hear before it does. YOU know what I'm talkin' bout!
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By the way, why Danny stayed quiet and did not comment on this subject?
I needed some time to get to it.
Speakers should be coupled to the floor with some type of spikes to isolate the weight of the speakers to those small points. This keeps the speakers still and anchored so that they do not move. Any moving or swaying of the speakers will be out of phase with the output and have negative effects. This can be most noted in the imaging and in tightness of the bass response.
If stacking speakers or an upper piece like that, the main thing you would want to avoid is allowing the resonance of one panel to be passed from one to another. So attack the problem by solving the problem. Fix the resonance of the panel that the upper speaker sits on, and avoid letting the upper speaker rest on the panel itself. Let it rest on the outer edges where there is no resonance.
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Hey Guy do you have carpet over the concrete floor ? If so consider Herbies products right here on AC.
charles
I get a kick out of him calling his floor spikes "decoupling spikes". They don't decouple, they couple.
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Hi.
(1) spikes are used to couple, not decouple/isolate.
(2) I do wonder though, in situations where speakers are spiked to the floor, would it be better to bolt them down to the floor? I don't know. I've never heard of anyone trying or talking about that.
(2) Trying to bolt the speakers to the concrete or joists beneath them would be not that hard .....
(1) Sorry, I disagree. So many manufacturers of audio spikes & tip toes claim their products are for vibration
isolation & decoupling. So they are lying or YOU are?
FYI, ALL my audio components, i.e. TT, tape deck, tube phonostages, tube & SS power amps are 'floated' on either steel spikes or tuned copper/brass tip toes. Excellent soundstaging & precise imaging, obviously helped out by the floatations provided by the spikes & tip toes. My basement audio den is on wall-to-wall carpetted concrete floor.
(2) My KEF 2-way bookshelvers are placed on a pair of lead-shot stuffed steel tripods with spikes nailing down the carpetted concrete floor.
(3) Concrete floor, being so massive, does not vibrate or shake unless in earthquakes. So who needs to
overkill it in bolting the loudspeaker down onto it????
c-J
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FYI, ALL my audio components, i.e. TT, tape deck, tube phonostages, tube & SS power amps are 'floated' on either steel spikes or tuned copper/brass tip toes. Excellent soundstaging & precise imaging, obviously helped out by the floatations provided by the spikes & tip toes. My basement audio den is on wall-to-wall carpetted concrete floor.
(2) My KEF 2-way bookshelvers are placed on a pair of lead-shot stuffed steel tripods with spikes nailing down the carpetted concrete floor.
All of those devices are not decoupling devices. They do not float the gear or separate it from the floor. They couple or secure them to the solid surface to produce all of those positives you describe.
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My floor is armored concrete
Wow. Sounds like you have a structurally sound listening room.
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Wow. Sounds like you have a structurally sound listening room.
Hi persisting1 and all Audio Circle members.
Most of the houses in Vietnam are built that way,
I mean armored concrete,
of course depending on the size of the house the thickness of the floor/ceiling varies.
Mine is about 12" thick.
The walls are made of one or two layers of soft red bricks with a thin layer of cement and some plaster to smooth the surface before painting.
So noise don't come in or go out.
My listening room is just above our bedroom and even when playing my sound system full blast my wife can't hear a thing, even the deep bass from my V1 does reach the bedroom.
That's what I call sound proof.
On the other hand, with all the concrete my listening room is very echo,
I had to installed some drapes (Curtains) and other stuff to reduce reverberations.
It's much better now, but to complete the room treatment I would need some bass trap, diffusion and absorbtion panels, but since I will be staying in Vietnam only for a year or two, no need to spend money on that,
I will live with the present acoustic of my listening room.
Yesterday, I moved by V1 from the shortest wall to the longest wall and seems to me that the sound is a little better.
Well thanks for your comments, they are always appreciated.
Guy 13
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Hi.
(1) Sorry, I disagree. So many manufacturers of audio spikes & tip toes claim their products are for vibration
isolation & decoupling. So they are lying or YOU are?
CJ, I've read enough of your posts to know better than to try and communicate with you so I won't be replying to you there, sorry.
Steve.
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Hi.
(1) Sorry, I disagree. So many manufacturers of audio spikes & tip toes claim their products are for vibration
isolation & decoupling. So they are lying or YOU are?
Given that your enclosures likely vibrate more than your foundation: Isolation would be counter-productive.
FYI, ALL my audio components, i.e. TT, tape deck, tube phonostages, tube & SS power amps are 'floated' on either steel spikes or tuned copper/brass tip toes. Excellent soundstaging & precise imaging, obviously helped out by the floatations provided by the spikes & tip toes.
Tape deck? Really?
My basement audio den is on wall-to-wall carpetted concrete floor.
I thought you had replaced that with wood per your discussion in "Audio Myths Too"? (seriously though: what is it with the bad spelling here on AC. Not typos: I get that; but homonyms and the like?)
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I'll chime in here since I recently received a set of 8 of Herbies Giant Fat Gliders.
My listening room is in my basement and I obviously have concrete floors. My room is not very big 16x14 feet. The wall behind my speakers is concrete/cinderblock for the first five feet and wood on top of that. Basement is fully finished thick carpet throughout.
Now I think there are a host of reasons to not blindly accept the audiophile dogma that says spikes on concrete is the ultimate in audio. It depends on the room construction. In my case coupling my speakers to the concrete with spikes caused some very nasty effects like glare and harshness in the midrange. My speakers resonated in the midbass/midrange. Some of the bass energy also audibly traveled across the floor causing other furniture and racks to resonate. I was originally going to buy a pair of Soundanchor bases for floorstanders but decided to try Herbies stuff because it was slightly cheaper.
They worked like a charm for me but every situation is unique. In my system, the mid range has cleared up substantially and bass travel across the floor is inaudible. I went ahead and bought 4 more for my audio rack. I am not a touchy feely audio guy so I am going to do measurement with Room EQ wizard to confirm what I am hearing.
I think if you have a very large room with concrete floors you may have a ideal situation, but those of us with smaller rooms with concrete floors might be better off with isolation as opposed to coupling.
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(2) My KEF 2-way bookshelvers are placed on a pair of lead-shot stuffed steel tripods with spikes nailing down the carpetted concrete floor.
c-J
FYI, what you have described here is actually isolation not coupling. The lead shot in those stands would absorb energy from the speakers that would have normally traveled to the floor. This is how Soundanchor stands work and Herbies loudspeaker feet are a stripped down version/different implementation of this. Your stands are probably very effective for isolation.
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(2) My KEF 2-way bookshelvers are placed on a pair of lead-shot stuffed steel tripods with spikes nailing down the carpetted concrete floor.
c-J
FYI, what you have described here is actually isolation not coupling. The lead shot in those stands would absorb energy from the speakers that would have normally traveled to the floor. This is how Soundanchor stands work and Herbies loudspeaker feet are a stripped down version/different implementation of this. Your stands are probably very effective for isolation.
Yes, the lead acts as a bit of a damper, but the spikes do in fact couple the stand to the floor.
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I've always believed that spikes, by themselves. are used to couple the device to the floor/surface.
There are similar devices that are used to de-couple the device from the surface which usually have something like a ball bearing between two hard surfaces which allows for movement between the two.
Each approach has theoretical advantages and which is better is dependent on your specific circumstances.
....could be mistaken :scratch:
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Ever since they appeared on the scene, my take on spikes has been that of Danny's-----their purpose, for loudspeakers atleast, is to keep the box/panel/whatever from moving forward and backward as a result of the driver(s) moving (for every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction, as we were taught in school). That's why I put spikes on the tops as well as the bottoms of my Quad stands. The stands are locked to the floor and ceiling, so the only part of the speaker moving is the part that is supposed to move (in theory, that is. Resonance is a related but different matter, which is why we need spikes AND Norez). When I got the first Magneplanar's (with three 18" X 6' panels hinged to each other) nobody was spiking yet, and those things were rocking back and forth like crazy. No wonder they were so soft and veiled! Magnepan came up with metal base supports that screwed onto the front and back of the panels, and we (Magneplanar owners) put bags of sand on top of the supports to aid in the effort to hold the panels still.
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By contrast this Dodd Audio Levitator is used to isolate (or separate) one surface from another.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/levitator1.jpg)
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In the 50's, the early audiophiles were putting their turntables on a slab of granite which sat upon an inner tube, an idea reintroduced in the 80's by Frank Van Alstine, and more recently by Max Townshend (with The Seismik Sink).
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I've always believed that spikes, by themselves. are used to couple the device to the floor/surface.
There are similar devices that are used to de-couple the device from the surface which usually have something like a ball bearing between two hard surfaces which allows for movement between the two.
Yeah, I think that is "true" decoupling but you obviously don't want your speakers moving so the focus sort of switches to absorption/pseudo-damping.
Each approach has theoretical advantages and which is better is dependent on your specific circumstances.
....could be mistaken :scratch:
That is my view. I bet if I moved my speakers to a different space I would switch back to spikes. I think its all room dependent.
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Physics is a harsh mistress. The idea of "grounding" is a mechanical concept applied to electrical usage. It simply means to send to earth.
For spikes I use Hilti pins that are intended to be shot into concrete or through steel beams to attach things to the surface.
https://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_catnavigation.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-61412 (https://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_catnavigation.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-61412)
The ones for steel are case hardened and available in a wide variety of sizes.
Lets do a little math here. I generally use 3 studs per speaker (determines a plane, you know) because the speaker can't rock. The actual point of the pin is very sharp but let's assume that it is 1/32" across. The area of those points is ~.01 sq in. Assume that the speaker weighs 100 lb. That gives a loading of ~10,000 lb/sq in resting on 3 sharp case hardened steel points. Please explain to me how that is not coupled? The actual point is probably on the order of < .01" radius. Check the pictures. You can do the math from there.
The idea that cones and spikes "de-couple" comes from the concept that it is harder to transmit low frequencies to the floor/stand/whatever through small points.
Squishy things float. Hard points couple. Simple.
On suspended wood floors coupling actually occurs from room pressurization moving the floors. Unless the walls and ceiling are infintely stiff there is always boundary coupling anyway.
Dave
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All of those devices are not decoupling devices. They do not float the gear or separate it from the floor. They couple or secure them to the solid surface to produce all of those positives you describe.
So Danny would you not say that they couple the speakers but they decouple the bass response from the floor? Because I would not know how to describe it other wise. Since the response from the enclosure that's coupled is not losing energy from its base sitting flat on the surface.
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I know of one person in the Audio world that is a proponent of de-coupling speakers from the ground, Barry Diament. He uses super hard ball-bearing-like objects which rest in a super hard concave "bowl". The theory is that the speaker (or other object) has sufficient mass to remain stable if there are any vibrations/micro vibrations underneath it - that is, the floor or shelf moves slightly while the object above remains in place. The design is self-centering due to the concave shape of the cup or bowl holding the ball bearing.
He, and people who have tried it, swear that it works well. I even picked up a set produced by FiM (the 305-3 model) at the T.H.E. Show in OC last year. but have not yet given them a try (I need better woodworking skills and a different equipment rack to try them out. This goes one step further in that there is an inverted cup which sits on top of the ball bearing)
It's a theory....
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Hi Guy
The rollers on your pic are use ful but once you have moved them to where you want apply a spike kit to the bottom. Your wife's complaint are valid but there are easy solutions to this. Many spikes come with placement pads that go under the spikes. You will get better volume control and more response at casual listening. They are the way to go on hardwoods and stuff like that.
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So Danny would you not say that they couple the speakers but they decouple the bass response from the floor? Because I would not know how to describe it other wise. Since the response from the enclosure that's coupled is not losing energy from its base sitting flat on the surface.
You need to think of this as two separate events.
One is the movement of the drivers that are converting electric energy into acoustic energy. There is movement to that force especially in the low frequency range as heavy woofers move back and forth. That's one force to deal with.
The second is pressure that is created in the room from the speakers output. This pressure can cause walls to flex and resonant. It can also flex a suspended wooden floor. And any large panels in the room with a resonance frequency in the audible range can be excited. Equipment racks and gear are hit by these forces as well. The speakers enclosure is also very much subject to these forces.
The first issue of controlling the mechanical force of the speakers drivers is addressed by trying to get the speaker itself to not move along with the drivers. If the speaker is allowed to move or float around on thick carpet or other materials then the movement of the cabinet will counter the movement of the drivers. This causes soft bass, and loss of image focus. And this is a back and forth movement (as per the drivers) and not an up and down movement.
So we want the cabinet to be solid and not move around. Physical weight helps a lot. But the most common solution is to anchor the speakers to something and a solid concrete floor is the most solid and non resonant thing in the whole room. Floor spikes can be very effective to anchor or couple the speaker to the floor. The only way you can say that it is decouple would be in relation to the bottom panel of the cabinet. It no longer sets on the floor so one could say that it is isolated from the floor. If the bottom panel were a floppy resonating panel that was buzzing against the floor then getting it off the floor might alleviate some additional buzzing. But that is a separate problem. The spikes couple the speaker to the floor.
If you have a buzzing cabinet wall then these issues have to be addressed with additional bracing and damping with products like No Rez. This is a pressure change related resonance.
Likewise the room and everything else in it will be susceptible to pressure changes. So gear can be placed on racks and stands that are heavy and anchored to the floor (the one solid thing in the room that doesn't move) and to each other with various spikes. You don't want the pressure of the output signal to move that stuff around either. Again this is coupling not decoupling. Gear can in addition to these things be placed on floating things (as Dave puts it) to act as sock absorbers. Bicycle inter tubes, magnetic lavitators, or anything else that separates the gear from a larger surface that might be catching some of the pressure changes that the output from the speakers are creating. This is decoupling.
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Ok I get I now, so decoupling isn't word suited for audio at all. :thumb:. Decoupling isn'tsuited at all for describing bass response.
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I know of one person in the Audio world that is a proponent of de-coupling speakers from the ground, Barry Diament. He uses super hard ball-bearing-like objects which rest in a super hard concave "bowl". The theory is that the speaker (or other object) has sufficient mass to remain stable if there are any vibrations/micro vibrations underneath it - that is, the floor or shelf moves slightly while the object above remains in place. The design is self-centering due to the concave shape of the cup or bowl holding the ball bearing.
If the floor were to be a lossy floor. And by that I mean not solid like a concrete floor. Flexible and subject to resonances like a wooden floor. The floor resonances are an up and down resonance not a back and forth resonance. So it would bounce the speaker up and down not move back and forth underneath it.
And to think that the pressure that a speaker puts into a room will resonant the floor, which will then in turn pass back onto the speaker and will resonant the speaker or speakers panels and cause a resonance distortion is FAR less likely that the pressure caused in the speaker cabinet itself will cause the resonance of the cabinet.
The ball bearing focuses the weight down to a very small pressure point just like a spike. That is a hard fixed pressure point. This again is coupling.
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Dave---Well I'll be damned! After using the original Mod Squad Tip Toes under my ESS TranStatics (are you old enough to remember them? A pretty advanced speaker when they were introduced in 1970. KEF B-139 woofer in a transmission line, KEF 5" Bextrene mid-range driver also in a short TL, and 3 RTR Electrostatic tweeters, all for $1200/pr in early '70's money. I still have them!) in '84, and having them flatten on the tips---each cabinet weighed 140 lbs., and the Tip Toes were machined out of aluminum---I went to a building supply place to look for the threaded studs and found them. Perfect! I installed 1/4-20 T-nuts on the bases into which I screwed the studs (no pun intended), where they still reside.
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Hi Danny and all Audio Circle members.
When I first started this (new) topic,
it was about Danny’s - V1 speakers that I own and like
and I wanted to know if the top coaxial portion and bottom subwoofer portion would improve the sound if separated by spikes.
As usual all the posts quickly drifted to something else, not that I mind; I always learn something out of an audio drift.
To come back to the reason of my original post, if Danny’s V1 are built according to or exceeding Danny’s specs, there should not be any problem of the woofer section transmitting bad vibrations to the top coaxial section, right?
Now other concerns are spikes for speakers.
Those are my conclusions, after reading all the posts of the Audio Circle members and searching on the web:
Spikes for speakers are good if on wood floor, so that the spikes can penetrate a little the wood, right?
Spikes on carpet, can be good is underneath you have a wood floor and the spikes reach the wood floor, right?
Spikes on ceramic floor is no good as it will only skid or scratch the ceramic surface, right?
Those little pennies that you put under the spikes are made of metal and will also glide or skid…, right?
Rubber pucks (Similar to the one used for the hockey game… I use that example, because I am a Canadian and our national sport is hockey.) might be good if they are hard, low profile and doesn’t slip on the floor, however, the rubber puck will not transmit the vibrations of the enclosure to the floor.
An audio rack and/or a turntable need to be isolated from the vibrating floor with spikes or some other isolating device, right.
Products available are:
Spikes, rubber donuts and/or a combination of the two.
Bernie’s offer all those products, therefore I will consider buying from him especial that all is offering is Made in USA, that’s why I find his products a little expensive, but I am a promoter of made in USA or Canada products.
Agree or don’t agree + I am right or I am wrong,
Please let me know or educate me further more.
Guy 13
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To come back to the reason of my original post, if Danny’s V1 are built according to or exceeding Danny’s specs, there should not be any problem of the woofer section transmitting bad vibrations to the top coaxial section, right?
Whether built as per the plans or separated with some spikes works fine either way. One way you couple it with spikes and the other way you couple it with wood to the outer frame of the lower section. Building it as one piece may make it a little more solid and secure. If the lower section is well coupled to the floor and does not move then neither will the upper section. The main thing is that the lower section (where all the moving force is) is secure.
Spikes for speakers are good if on wood floor, so that the spikes can penetrate a little the wood, right?
Spikes on carpet, can be good is underneath you have a wood floor and the spikes reach the wood floor, right?
Sure. Even spikes on a carpeted concrete floor is great.
Spikes on ceramic floor is no good as it will only skid or scratch the ceramic surface, right?
They won't skid unless you pull them around on it. And you set the spikes on small disc to protect the floor.
Those little pennies that you put under the spikes are made of metal and will also glide or skid…, right?
No, they will not move. There is too much weight per square inch on them for them to move. You will have to physically push the speakers to get them to move on those things.
Rubber pucks (Similar to the one used for the hockey game… I use that example, because I am a Canadian and our national sport is hockey.) might be good if they are hard, low profile and doesn’t slip on the floor, however, the rubber puck will not transmit the vibrations of the enclosure to the floor.
Physical vibrations are seldom transmitted to the floor. You have to have a floppy un-braced panel that is resonating and sitting on the floor directly for it to transmit that to the floor. Floor spikes are positioned on the edges of the speaker on on the outside edges of a thick base. In those positions there is hardly any resonance to transmit at all.
The concern is not that the speaker will vibrate the floor or resonate the floor from physical contact. The concern is holding the speaker still so that it does not move.
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Danny, looking at Guy's sketch, how would the coax driver output be affected by the gap between the upper baffle and the lower cabinet/base created by the height of the spikes? When building my sealed speakers a while back, I had a similar design idea on the drawing board before deciding to go in the direction it ended up.
Just curious what if any affect it has, because I remember seeing other commercial (boxed) speaker designs with a similar approach that looked very nice, as well as thinking that for cabinet makers considering building these kind of speakers, shipping completed smaller stackable unit assemblies might be a more cost-effective approach than single piece floor standing cabinets? Also could work out well for DIY/tinkering guys in being able to build out the bottoms and then cheaply/easily change out the tops as models/tastes/whim changes.
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I had my V's spiked to the floor. But after all the moving around I've done to these speakers I broke and bent a few. My audio buddy purchased some of those Herbies gliders. Now whether you believe they couple or decouple, (decouple is what I believe they are supposed to do) they have altered the sound of the speakers. They simply sound smoother but don't seem to sacrifice high frequency energy.
My floor floats. There are no piers under the living room. None. There are hardly any piers under the entire house :o and the few that are there are tilted. It's criminal how they rebuilt this house :evil:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=72716)
It's an audio upgrade I tell ya, waiting to happen. And since I live on the San Andreas fault - I BETTER HURRY!
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Wow Michael, that is SCARY! You're in California too (I'm in the Southern quarter), where the standards in the carpentry trade have dropped drastically in the past few decades. Call Holmes on Homes!
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Hi.
(1) Given that your enclosures likely vibrate more than your foundation: Isolation would be counter-productive.
(2) Tape deck? Really?
(3) thought you had replaced that with wood per your discussion in "Audio Myths Too"? (seriously though: what is it with the bad spelling here on AC. Not typos: I get that; but homonyms and the like?)
(1) YES, isolation is productive & effective for wooden or the like soft floor structures to stop vibration coming up from below. But not so good for rigid concrete floors which virtually does not vibrate when compared to the vibration of the equipment caused by airborne soundwaves from the loudspeakers & wall reflections.
Isolation only blocks the equipment vibration from draining away. So spiking is the far better effective way of killing equipment vibration for concrete floors as spikes allow vibration to drain away instantly. Spike is phsyical a mechanical diode, which only permits one-direct flow of vibration. So for equipment with drives, e.g. TT, tape deck, CD/DVD/Blu-ray players, the spikes should be directed downwards to allow the drive vibration, & any airborne vibrations of the player drain awy instantly. At the same time, it does not allow any structural vibration coming from below.
Isolation does not provide such 2-way benefits.
(2) Yes, it is supported by 3-in-set tuned brass tip toes on wooden board. The tape music get 'cleaned up" a lot lot.
(3) NO, I said in previous posts the concrete basement walls are wooden-panelled all around, with glasswool quilts filled up the voids behind between the backbone wooden studs.
c-J
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...Spike is phsyical a mechanical diode, which only permits one-direct flow of vibration....
This makes no sense to me. How can a spike which is coupled to the surface it's touching prevent vibrations from traveling in both directions?
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Hi.
(1) YES, isolation is productive & effective for wooden or the like soft floor structures to stop vibration coming up from below. But not so good for rigid concrete floors which virtually does not vibrate when compared to the vibration of the equipment caused by airborne soundwaves from the loudspeakers & wall reflections.
Isolation only blocks the equipment vibration from draining away. So spiking is the far better effective way of killing equipment vibration for concrete floors as spikes allow vibration to drain away instantly. Spike is phsyical a mechanical diode, which only permits one-direct flow of vibration. So for equipment with drives, e.g. TT, tape deck, CD/DVD/Blu-ray players, the spikes should be directed downwards to allow the drive vibration, & any airborne vibrations of the player drain awy instantly. At the same time, it does not allow any structural vibration coming from below.
c-J
I've heard so may individuals and vendors repeat the "one way vibration diode" mantra regarding spiking that it seems to have become an unquestioned maxim for many. On the other hand, I'd like to meet one individual trained in science that promotes the belief a spike of monolithic material can act as a vibration diode. What seems more likely to actually happen is that when one spikes a component to a larger mass, the components resonant frequency changes because of the coupling. This seems more likely to account for whatever improvement in sound one hears. There's no doubt footers and spikes do affect changes in what we hear and it would be interesting to see someone create some tests to verify or put to bed the issue of whether spiking works by resonant tuning or actual vibration "draining."
My personal experience also belies the belief that spiking to concrete always improves things. My home has the air handler for the HVAC system mounted on the rafters in the attic space. The low frequency vibrations it generates transfer through the rafters to the wall studs and then to the concrete foundation of the home. When my speakers have been spiked directly to the concrete floor, I can feel them oscillate in time with the the air handler fan in the attic. If I had known that would happen, I would have ordered and installed vibration damping mounts at the time of the system replacement. I've gotten around this by using heavy granite slabs under the speakers and they definitely tightened up the sound when coupled to the speakers. I could easily believe there are other single family homes and apartments where similar low frequency vibrations could be transferring through the concrete of the dwelling.
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What seems more likely to actually happen is that when one spikes a component to a larger mass, the components resonant frequency changes because of the coupling.
You are correct.
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Most of my speakers over the years had sat on marble. As Danny mentioned these seem to tighten things up a bit.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=72833)