[Brian Cheney]

I read the Stereophle report about the Boesendorfer demo, which I would have considered a failure.  Apparently the recording technique was good, and the space adequate, but the speakers did not deliver realistic sound.

Still I learned a few things not to do--like placing the live musicians and the repro gear side by side, spatially displaced.  Our plan is the have the audience in the center, musicians on one short wall, speakers on the other, both placed as close to the listeners as practical, with more distant micing than usual in recordings (perhaps 5 to 10 ft back) so that the mics hear the same sound the listeners do.

Those references are a treasure trove, many thanks.  This is exactly what I hoped for from AC'er's, filling in the gaps of our knowledge about such demonstrations.

Again, many thanks!

[Brian Cheney]

I've read all the references now and it seems the von Schweikert demo in 2004 comes as close to what we want as possible. Unfortunately we only have Albert's own response to his speakers vs. live sound, and although he was very happy with the results, we won't have the luxury of his extremely unusual mic technique and equipment, nor do we have $100,000pr speakers to play (The V 60's retail for $8900pr, and VLA woofer towers $5000ea).

The acounts of the other live-vs-recorded demonstrations lead me to believe I would have found them unconvincing.  Of course I am a critical, trained listener. Most of our CES audience will be experienced audiophiles and critics and I don't think they'll be letting us off easy.

Still, most informative.

[Housteau]

I see that there are 14 foot ceilings.  This is quite a large space.

Apollo Ballroom 109x66  7194  14ft
Foyer 55x28  1540  
  
Apollo 1 28x33  924  14ft  
Apollo 2 28x33  924  14ft    
Apollo 3 25.5x33  841  14ft    
Apollo 4 25.5x33  841  14ft  
Apollo 5 26.5x33  874  14ft  
Apollo 6 26.5x33  874  14ft  
Apollo 7 29x33  957  14ft    
Apollo 8 29x33  957  14ft

Is it the entire ballroom that you have rented, or just sections of it?  You mentioned using the foyer and the adjoining 28'W x 62'L space.  An adjoining space like that would only comprise 2 of the eight configurable rooms.  In any case I would think that quite a bit of portable room treatments will be needed.  Aesthetics will be important also.  Unfortunately I believe that demonstrations less pleasing to the eye can sometimes be treated as less pleasing to the ear.

Does anyone have any photos of these spaces being used in a past CES that shows how they were set-up and treated?

  

[doug s.]

I've read all the references now and it seems the von Schweikert demo in 2004 comes as close to what we want as possible. Unfortunately we only have Albert's own response to his speakers vs. live sound, and although he was very happy with the results, we won't have the luxury of his extremely unusual mic technique and equipment, nor do we have $100,000pr speakers to play (The V 60's retail for $8900pr, and VLA woofer towers $5000ea).

The acounts of the other live-vs-recorded demonstrations lead me to believe I would have found them unconvincing.  Of course I am a critical, trained listener. Most of our CES audience will be experienced audiophiles and critics and I don't think they'll be letting us off easy.

Still, most informative.

i agree the von schweikert info is most informative - the other links i posted pretty-much don't give any info other than the fact that it was done.  perhaps a further more detailed websearch might come up w/more info.  and, of course, your speakers are much more price-friendly that von s's...   

best,

doug s.

[Brian Cheney]

The Apollo is configurable in 900 sq ft sections with walls that can be added or removed.

While plans will likely change when we get there, given an audience of 30 to 40 persons per demo and a maximum of five performers per set, I plan to use the center sections of the ballroom which is 28' wide by 66ft long, or about 1800 sq ft.  We will have Sonex panels behind the performers and the speakers, and bass traps.  Players, listeners, and speakers will all be close to the center of the room to keep the late arrivals very late, so that the ear will tend to exclude them.

We do have access to the 1500sq ft foyer which is not rectangular (actually quite irregular in shape) and can be an alternate venue if the big room somehow doesn't work out.

We'll only have a short time to make important decisions.  This is why I have asked for suggestions, info and volunteers here at AC. The responses have been most gratifying.

[John Casler]

Does anyone have any photos of these spaces being used in a past CES that shows how they were set-up and treated?

Housteau,

Too bad your friend with the Acoustic Guitar is not close, even if we had to amplify him, it might sound great

[Brian Cheney]

Any really good acoustic guitar players willing to perform in our demo?  I think that would add considerably.  Pianist Chris Salocks can accompany.

[Housteau]

Too bad your friend with the Acoustic Guitar is not close, even if we had to amplify him, it might sound great

I think he would really get a kick out of it as well, but as your typical starving musician, I would think the trip might be a bit too much for him.

[Brian Cheney]

Dave has offered to join our roster of Show volunteers and we are grateful for the help.

[John Casler]

Dave has offered to join our roster of Show volunteers and we are grateful for the help.

Great, if Russ and Dave show up early they can help moving the VLA's in and out

This type of set up will mean significant pre-planning and coordination.

The cool thing, is if you record the perfromances, and then play them back, the listeners can then take the CD home and see how close (or not) their playback system does the same job.

Theoretically, all three should be close.

[Housteau]

My work schedule could absolutely kill these plans, but for now I have reserved a room from the 6th to the 11th.  I plan on arriving in the early afternoon of the 6th.

[PLMONROE]

As a young Air Force Lieutenant in the early 60's I remember attending a Hi-Fi Show at the Cow Palace in San Francisco where Acoustic Research conducted a similar presentation. They had just come out with their AR-3s and coupled up with one of the major amplifier companies to do this. I know it wasn't McIntosh so it must have been either Marantz or perhaps Harman-Kardon with their Citation II - there have been a lot of beers over the bar since then. Anyhow, as I recall they had a string quartet on a stage flanked with their AR-3s and alternated playing  music previously recorded in a studio with the same music performed live by the string quartet. By having the speakers and the live performers at the same end of the room with listeners at the other they eliminated a lot of variables.  I don't think anybody had any trouble distinguishing the recorded sound from the live, but that being said the AR-3s were not shamed in the least. As a matter of fact I was impressed enough to part with the enormous sum of $298 to buy a pair (unfinished) which at that time was over one half months base pay, flight pay, and allowances combined. My wife darned near divorced me, but I still have her and the AR-3s as well.  In fact they were in daily use until I bought VMPS RM-40s the year they came out! Does anybody remember this event besides me?

[Early B.]

As a young Air Force Lieutenant in the early 60's I remember attending a Hi-Fi Show at the Cow Palace in San Francisco where Acoustic Research conducted a similar presentation... Does anybody remember this event besides me?

Remember this event? Hell, most of us weren't even born yet!!

Nevertheless, you make a good point about reducing a lot of variables by replaying the same music on the same stage as the artists.

[PLMONROE]

Remember this event? Hell, most of us weren't even born yet!!

Ahhhh yes! Remind me someday and I will share with you how difficult it was to teach the young Nero how to properly hold the fiddle.

Paul -- aka 1SrCitizen

[Brian Cheney]

Here's the latest:

Venue has moved to the adjoining Zeus Ballroom, a 28' x 36' space right on the lobby of the Alexis Park.  I feel this space will be more amenable to the farfield recording we plan to do, and we will have a riser stage and at least 30 seats for each show.  There will be  four half hour sets a day plus playback time, perhaps more as schedule permits.

There is a lot of planning to do already, and decisions must be made, e.g. rent a Boesendorfer or a Yamaha C7, plus hire a tuner to come in each morning.  That 's $1500 right there.

Our budget has already surpassed $50K, but we'll make it up at the door.  There will be no charge for admission, but it's $10 to get out!

[Housteau]

Here is what I could find on the Zeus Ballroom:



Which one is it to be, B or C?

[PLMONROE]

Dave, you have a PM. 

[Brian Cheney]

We are in Zeus B.  Currently there is no access to the other parts of the Zeus.

We will also have tables in the foyer, selling CD's, soliciting comment sheets, handing out set tickets and party invitations, and taking orders for the live recording of the Saturday evening Gala featuring all our performers--and the audience!.

[Housteau]

Thank you Paul.  I just found it and responded.

Brian - Is it being planned that people will be able to play their own music through the system between these demonstrations as they have for previous CESs?

I think that a huge benefit of this whole thing is just the simple fact that visitors will be able to experience this system in a nice sized room.  The visual impact alone will be a real winner, since most reviewers and attendees of previous events have only had the chance to see and hear them in a much smaller space.  It is going to surprise many.

[Brian Cheney]

Oh yes, we will play commercial CD's during the 10am to 12 noon hours before the first set, and during breaks throughout the day.  We will also be playing back the live music just recorded that day, all afternoon. 

We will even take requests.  I expect great sound under all circumstances, but it will be interesting to hear regular albums played back on a system EQ'ed for absolute neutrality.