AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Selah Audio Owners => Topic started by: Mgivens on 4 Oct 2017, 11:38 pm

Title: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Mgivens on 4 Oct 2017, 11:38 pm
First post here!

After wanting to do a project with Rick for years, I finally took the plunge and gave him a call.  After some serious discussions we decided an active 3 way tower design would be best for my needs.

Drivers are his ribbon tweeter, 6.5 white satori mid and an offset pair of the SB 8in poly woofers.  They will be powered by the MiniDSP PWR-ICE250. 

At this time Rick is still testing everything and working his magic.  I have finalized the cabinet design and construction after input from Rick.  The cabinet parts are at the CNC shop right now.

Ill post more shots once actual construction and finishing is starting to take place.  Hopefully will Rick will chime in with any comments regarding the new design!

Needless to say I am very excite to try out the active dsp system after years with a conventional setup!

(https://i.imgur.com/tWvztPZ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1dv31A9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LVkIvcX.jpg)

-Michael


Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: JakeJ on 5 Oct 2017, 03:18 am
Man, that's a great design, Michael.  Really like the idea of off setting and insetting the subs and having the grills flush with sides.

Would love to know some spec on them, freq resp, eff, etc.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: mresseguie on 5 Oct 2017, 04:42 am
Hello, Michael.

Rick had mentioned something like this to me a while back, but the speaker I imagined didn't look anywhere as nice as this!  This is one sleek looking speaker.

Same as Jake....I'd like to know some specs once they're available. [Edit: I had assumed the woofers were active and the top two-way passive, but I see that's not the case.]

Michael
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 5 Oct 2017, 02:50 pm
This came out of the "Pick 3" idea but with an expanded list of drivers.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 5 Oct 2017, 04:16 pm
First post here!

After wanting to do a project with Rick for years, I finally took the plunge and gave him a call.  After some serious discussions we decided an active 3 way tower design would be best for my needs.

Drivers are his ribbon tweeter, 6.5 white satori mid and an offset pair of the SB 8in poly woofers.  They will be powered by the MiniDSP PWR-ICE250. 

At this time Rick is still testing everything and working his magic.  I have finalized the cabinet design and construction after input from Rick.  The cabinet parts are at the CNC shop right now.

Ill post more shots once actual construction and finishing is starting to take place.  Hopefully will Rick will chime in with any comments regarding the new design!

Needless to say I am very excite to try out the active dsp system after years with a conventional setup!


-Michael

As I told you earlier the cabinet design is excellent! I'm super pleased with the results of the design and we went beyond the original "Pick 3" concept with a floorstanding design.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 5 Oct 2017, 05:50 pm
Man, that's a great design, Michael.  Really like the idea of off setting and insetting the subs and having the grills flush with sides.

Would love to know some spec on them, freq resp, eff, etc.

The specifications are a little different to quantify since it's going to be fully driven by the plate amps. It's also possible to run outboard amps with four or six channels and DSP via a MiniDSP or DEQX unit.  88dB with a 4-ohm impedance would be a standard rating. The bass EQ is adjustable with a -3dB point of 30-40hz, possibly lower but with less headroom. With a mid 30's setting these will play quite loud and clean. Overall response is very flat and the DSP allows four presets that can be used for different voicings. The flexibility of adapting to the room is a big plus and room EQ / correction is available as well.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: JakeJ on 5 Oct 2017, 06:58 pm
Oh, crap!  :duh:  I forgot this is fully active!  Nevermind about the specs, they just became irrelevant.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: JakeJ on 6 Oct 2017, 01:11 am
OK, so maybe freq range would be nice to know.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: EdRo on 6 Oct 2017, 01:50 am
That's a great looking cab design!
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: LesterSleepsIn on 6 Oct 2017, 12:43 pm
Lordy, more magic from Selah. Great work Rick and Michael.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: restrav on 6 Oct 2017, 01:23 pm
Man that's sexy
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 6 Oct 2017, 02:53 pm
Hello, Michael.

Rick had mentioned something like this to me a while back, but the speaker I imagined didn't look anywhere as nice as this!  This is one sleek looking speaker.

Same as Jake....I'd like to know some specs once they're available. [Edit: I had assumed the woofers were active and the top two-way passive, but I see that's not the case.]

Michael

The tweeter / midrange crossover point is passive and everything else is active. It works quite well with the active part doing what it does best.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: mresseguie on 6 Oct 2017, 03:36 pm
The tweeter / midrange crossover point is passive and everything else is active. It works quite well with the active part doing what it does best.

Even better (from my perspective)!
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 6 Oct 2017, 04:20 pm
OK, so maybe freq range would be nice to know.

Very flat response 30hz-20K is possible depending on the amount of DSP EQ that's applied.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Mgivens on 13 Oct 2017, 03:26 am
Hey thanks everyone for their kind words, very nice to hear!

Very happy to have Rick here to address the technical questions.

Below I have attached a more finished rendering of the design... one showing the how I will use it 90% of the time( with the side grills on and the front off)  having three grills per speaker did cause me to need a lot of magnets....

also shown is the cnc cut patterns, 2 x .5in and 2 x .75in mdf.  hope to pick the parts up soon!

-Michael

(https://i.imgur.com/bshng4R.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/K1GtiUE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/SssaNRk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MlnWwvA.jpg)
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 14 Oct 2017, 10:01 pm
Here's an in-room response graph, 1/3 octave resolution with no gating. No DSP EQ has been applied, only DSP and passive crossovers plus some mid/tweeter section gain adjustment in the DSP to flatten out the response.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169874)
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 14 Oct 2017, 11:02 pm
In the process of working on this design I looked at some other similar speakers, all far more expensive and up to $30K/pair. I have worked with side-firing drivers before but nothing quite like this. It's making me rethink some of my floorstanding designs which are more costly than this one. Sadly some audiophiles automatically assume that the more expensive speaker sounds better. Not true, especially in this case.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: tktran303 on 20 Oct 2017, 09:54 pm
Cabinet design is just gorgeous.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 30 Oct 2017, 11:06 pm
Here are the response graphs. The in-room graphs have no gating and 1/12 octave smoothing. That means they won't look as pretty as those taken in an anechoic chamber or with the average 1/3 octave published by most speaker manufacturers. First, the on-axis and off-axis (30 degrees horizontally). No room correction has been applied.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170518)
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 30 Oct 2017, 11:38 pm
Vertical response curves. The passive crossover area (1-20K) is quite smooth and presents a good vertical sweet spot (the -7 degrees curve is on the midbass axis at one meter distance).


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170520)


Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 31 Oct 2017, 12:34 am
Nearfield bass response. What's great is that when testing nearfield you remove the effects of the room (like an anechoic chamber). The high signal-to-noise ratio gives a much better indicator of what the system is doing.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170527)
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 1 Nov 2017, 02:34 am
Here are some different voicings for the design. The MiniDSP amp can store up to four presets which gives you flexibility for variances in recordings, rooms, and personal preferences. Many audiophiles end up chasing their tails switching out cables, DACs, etc. when the largest variances come from rooms and recordings. Being able to compensate for these two things can help your sound quite a bit.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170570)
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Mgivens on 6 Nov 2017, 12:08 am
making some progress on the cabinets!  everything coming together.  hope to be priming the cabinets by next weekend.
(https://i.imgur.com/KNrU9mR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MSL6MGP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dTSGq3D.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XBge088.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2FtChba.jpg)
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: mresseguie on 6 Nov 2017, 07:51 am
That looks tremendous! You make it look easy, but it's not (for me anyway).

Thank you for the updates.

Michael
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 7 Nov 2017, 01:11 am
Looks like things are moving along nicely. I'm just about finished with a DSP powered center channel.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Mgivens on 9 Nov 2017, 07:20 pm
Thanks for the kind words!

Well I broke my big rule in speaker building...I set one up and listened before any finish work.  adding to that the baffle was only held on with a few clamps and no stuffing was in place.

all I can say is wow....despite having to keep the volume low due to the baffle rattling they sounded incredible.   honestly with just one speaker playing in beyond sub optimal conditions they impressed not only me but my wife who is always luke warm on my all my new speakers.  I don't want to get over excited here but I listened late into the night and got up early to listen more.  lost hours I could have been building but ohh well.  motivation to work harder as I'm sure once finished properly and positioned correctly I will not leave the room for days. 


(https://i.imgur.com/Ti7jnYF.jpg)

Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Mgivens on 17 Nov 2017, 06:51 pm
finished cabinets.  have been applying west systems with fairing compound and sanding... finished 3 coats of primer (no pics) and will sand that in the morning then paint.  hopefully have them up and running by thanksgiving weekend.
(https://i.imgur.com/lBShqTi.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/JsThfFD.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cjiig8Z.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZH17gk5.jpg)
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: richidoo on 17 Nov 2017, 07:25 pm
Boy'z got skilz  8)    :thumb:

Nice job!
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: mresseguie on 18 Nov 2017, 01:06 pm
 :bowdown:
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Mgivens on 21 Nov 2017, 05:58 pm
Thanks guys! :thumb:

Here are some shots of the primed cabs.  4 coats of bin shellac sanded down with 220-320

then pics of the first coat of the black enamel done sunday.  roll and tip.  this is right after so the paint has to settle.  im wet sanding it tonight to apply a second coat then it is polish time hopefully Friday.  the white area will be painted flat black.

-Michael
(https://i.imgur.com/89u7Esn.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1Mw8QtW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0tgOFva.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VCmraWw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jt0DyAh.jpg)
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: monte on 21 Nov 2017, 06:08 pm
That design looks great.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: stlrman on 22 Nov 2017, 11:41 am
Beautiful finish !! Wow !! :thumb:
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: AvFan on 22 Nov 2017, 02:00 pm
These speakers look great and I bet you are anxious to get the drivers installed to start listening!  What kind of enamel paint are you using?  I see a heater in one of the photos so what temperature is your garage when you are applying the black enamel?  Lastly, I'm curious about how you intend to rub out the final coat of enamel.   (OK, I'm woodworker and always interested in new techniques).  Thanks!
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way towe
Post by: Mgivens on 22 Nov 2017, 03:14 pm
Thanks guys

Avfan,

I am NOT a woodwork, so always looking for advice! The finish is a alkyd enamel for roll and tipping on boats.  I'm in the marine industry s I always seem to default to marine based products.  Honestly it's been kind of a pain to work with up to this point.  The garage is dusty and the paint was too thick on my first coat.  Hence the orange peel. I have sanded it back down and applied a second coat with more thinner.  It's better but not perfect.  I'm going to let it dry until Friday, with the heater it's maybe sixty five degrees in the garage.  I'm gonna experiment with polishing. Maybe start with a light wet sand with super fine grit then move onto a polish system from the chemical brother which is a car based system.  We will see, any advice is appreciated.  If it's not what I want by the end of this weekend I may just scrap the gloss idea and go satin.

I have read your ottavo thread and will keep this one updated once I get a chance to play around with the rew and room e.g. Features as my room also is sub optimal.

Michael
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: AvFan on 22 Nov 2017, 04:08 pm
It can be hard to figure out how much to thin a finish that will be applied by hand.  Too much and it runs, too little and it won't self level.  Humidity and temperature also play into how a finish lays down.  I have only used a marine type finish once, a very high solids spar varnish and it took forever to cure so I have not used it again.  My theory is marine products must accommodate wood movement and changing moisture content so they are designed to be more flexible.  That may make your black enamel a little tough to rub out unless it has fully cured. 

I look forward to your reports on how your new speakers sound and how the REW/MiniDSP combo work.  From Rick's earlier glowing comments I expect your speakers will be stellar.  Enjoy!
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Mgivens on 30 Nov 2017, 07:06 pm
DONE.   :o

Finished the speakers day after thanksgiving with a lots of help from my dad while my mom was babysitting….

Had some issues with the gloss paint that I will discuss if anyone is interested at a later point.  Will post pics at some point as black speakers in a badly lit room are hard to shoot. 

Now, wanted to post a short review as they are still breaking in along with my ears.  Have also been playing around with position and feel I don’t yet have it perfect.


Spectacular, honestly lived up to my expectations and more.  Blows my previous reference system out of the water along with my headphone setups(which I was not really expecting). 

Detailed and revealing without ruining the listening experience on sub-par recordings.  This was an issue I discussed with Rick as I’ve had problems with previous systems.
Bass is amazing and headroom is crazy.  These things get LOUD.  Soundstage and depth is like nothing I’ve heard before, honestly just totally different experience then I’ve ever had. 

Vocal realism and clarity is mind blowing.  I listen to a lot of mid 90s British stuff, massive attack, Portishead.  These guys are hard on speakers due to the bass.  Ricks speakers handle it better than I could have hoped for.  Honestly this was a huge make it or break it moment for me as ive tried so many setups to get these records to work and it finally does.  Sealed is great, totally different to the ported speakers and subs I’ve gone through.

My issue now is dealing with my crappy room.  More updates to that as I play around more with measurements and the dsp and rew…however I will say all the corrections ive tried don’t sound as good as just leaving it alone.  Ive got a LOT more to learn and some more ideas so ill get back to this.

Thanks Rick should have just gone to you years ago!
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: uncola on 1 Dec 2017, 01:49 pm
Wow nice to see a project live up to expectations.  I hear you on the bass.  Massive attack - angel is a track I use to check bass.  That design is really interesting..  my open baffle friend is always recommending as wide a baffle as possible to enhance bass.  I guess having the big woofer on the side panel has the same effect!
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 1 Dec 2017, 08:03 pm
DONE.   :o

Finished the speakers day after thanksgiving with a lots of help from my dad while my mom was babysitting….

Had some issues with the gloss paint that I will discuss if anyone is interested at a later point.  Will post pics at some point as black speakers in a badly lit room are hard to shoot. 

Now, wanted to post a short review as they are still breaking in along with my ears.  Have also been playing around with position and feel I don’t yet have it perfect.


Spectacular, honestly lived up to my expectations and more.  Blows my previous reference system out of the water along with my headphone setups(which I was not really expecting). 

Detailed and revealing without ruining the listening experience on sub-par recordings.  This was an issue I discussed with Rick as I’ve had problems with previous systems.
Bass is amazing and headroom is crazy.  These things get LOUD.  Soundstage and depth is like nothing I’ve heard before, honestly just totally different experience then I’ve ever had. 

Vocal realism and clarity is mind blowing.  I listen to a lot of mid 90s British stuff, massive attack, Portishead.  These guys are hard on speakers due to the bass.  Ricks speakers handle it better than I could have hoped for.  Honestly this was a huge make it or break it moment for me as ive tried so many setups to get these records to work and it finally does.  Sealed is great, totally different to the ported speakers and subs I’ve gone through.

My issue now is dealing with my crappy room.  More updates to that as I play around more with measurements and the dsp and rew…however I will say all the corrections ive tried don’t sound as good as just leaving it alone.  Ive got a LOT more to learn and some more ideas so ill get back to this.

Thanks Rick should have just gone to you years ago!

Great to hear that you're enjoying the speakers. Next time don't wait so long.  :lol:

Seriously, measuring and adding room correction can be a little tricky. As a rule you want to only notch out peaks. Response in the low mid / upper bass are often due to a floor reflection and trying to smooth out a cancellation won't work and only wastes amplifier power. Above 300hz it's often a diffraction or reflection from the cabinet or nearby object. You may smooth out the response at a specific angle but also create a peak or dip at another angle.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: navin on 14 Dec 2017, 08:20 am
DONE.   :o

Had some issues with the gloss paint that I will discuss if anyone is interested at a later point.

In 2012 I built speakers using Rick's designs. I avoided going for a glossy finish because it would show fingerprints and any imperfections.

That said. One mistake I made was in the installation of the small NdFeB magnets. I installed the magnets under the veneer and installed similar magnets with opposite poles in the frame of grill. This works well to hold the grill.

What I have noticed is that every time someone brushes past the grill the grill gets dislodged. What I should have done was to make small indentations in the baffle so that the magnets on the grill sat inside these indentations. Sonus Faber does this .

I am unable to embed an image so I will include a link.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0653/5587/products/SFVen2.5wal.jpg?v=1428599479
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: JLM on 14 Dec 2017, 11:33 am
Many audiophiles end up chasing their tails switching out cables, DACs, etc. when the largest variances come from rooms and recordings. Being able to compensate for these two things can help your sound quite a bit.


++1

But I leave the recordings to the professionals.

Nice design, but the best/most efficient bass reproduction comes from distributed bass (read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction") so I'd vote for a 2-way stand mount with 4 DSP'd subs.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 14 Dec 2017, 02:38 pm
++1

But I leave the recordings to the professionals.

Nice design, but the best/most efficient bass reproduction comes from distributed bass (read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction") so I'd vote for a 2-way stand mount with 4 DSP'd subs.

The BeoLab 90 might actually be just as good or better than distributed subs.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: PMAT on 14 Dec 2017, 06:55 pm


Nice design, but the best/most efficient bass reproduction comes from distributed bass (read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction") so I'd vote for a 2-way stand mount with 4 DSP'd subs.
In light of this thread being a first for the OP and a wonderful and elegant design well executed, I don't see the relevance of your uninvited vote. Support and encouragement is such a nice gift to new ideas.

Beautiful skills by the way, and more pics please. I see many DIY designs but few as pretty as this one.
Title: Re: Hybrid 3 way tower
Post by: Rick Craig on 18 Dec 2017, 10:53 pm
In light of this thread being a first for the OP and a wonderful and elegant design well executed, I don't see the relevance of your uninvited vote. Support and encouragement is such a nice gift to new ideas.

Beautiful skills by the way, and more pics please. I see many DIY designs but few as pretty as this one.

I don't think any harm was intended from the post. Thanks for encouraging the OP though.