AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY on 18 Apr 2019, 06:30 pm
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Next year I plan on upgrading from my Focal 807's to a new speaker. I have an unhealthy fascination with the Buchardt s400's but lately have been struck by the love people have for the Spatial's. So as I have more time than money I decided to start deep diving and reading on the matter.
So help me out here with a couple of very preliminary concerns:
1. The Size. Mostly likely I will living in increasingly smaller spaces, possibly studio apartments so I'm worried about these getting to a place where I love them but have no room for them. Anyone in this situation?
2. Imaging. From accounts I read the sweet spot is small but super focused. While I do get short spurts of time to sit and listen, I'm generally moving around and cleaning house, etc. Will the size of the sweet spot be a detriment in this case?
Last thing: I will be using these along with Odysey Audio amps and preamps, anyone doing the same?
Thanks in advance.
m
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I can only comment on point 2- I also move around when I listen, and don’t find the sweet spot any more or less sweet than other speakers I’ve owned. It’s really not all that small. Since they also radiate to the back, there is something there soundwise too. Lastly, and a big factor for me, is the ability for the M3, and likely M4, to play loudly and cleanly. I am frequently well away from the speakers, and rarely sit in the sweet spot, so that attribute is important to me.
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I can only comment on point 2- I also move around when I listen, and don’t find the sweet spot any more or less sweet than other speakers I’ve owned. It’s really not all that small. Since they also radiate to the back, there is something there soundwise too. Lastly, and a big factor for me, is the ability for the M3, and likely M4, to play loudly and cleanly. I am frequently well away from the speakers, and rarely sit in the sweet spot, so that attribute is important to me.
Thats good to know. Thanks
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With Mad's completely free demo terms it might be worth trying the S400 and if you don't like them send them back as you will be out nothing. I have owned the M3TS and then M3TM's for almost three years and they do need some breathing room and more power than the specs indicate.
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I would suggest sticking with an M3 rather than going smaller in size with the M4. Even in a studio apartment, which might run in size of 20’ x 15’, it’d be easy to play them at lower volumes in the evenings and crank them up in the day time to get the impact those 15” drivers can push out. I haven’t felt like I’ve needed a sub on much material outside a few tracks.
When your living situation changes to a larger location, there’s no concern about not having a larger pair of Spatial then.
-dave
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I would suggest sticking with an M3 rather than going smaller in size with the M4. Even in a studio apartment, which might run in size of 20’ x 15’, it’d be easy to play them at lower volumes in the evenings and crank them up in the day time to get the impact those 15” drivers can push out. I haven’t felt like I’ve needed a sub on much material outside a few tracks.
When your living situation changes to a larger location, there’s no concern about not having a larger pair of Spatial then.
-dave
Thanks Dave. Excellent info. I'm fairly certain my living spaces will only decrease from here on out. I was thinking of M4 and adding a sub later but I really don't want to run a sub.
More to think about I guess.
Thanks again
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I'd say the only critical need for either M4 or M3 is room depth. You really do need 2-3 feet behind the speaker for them to sound their best. Fortunately, their design has a smaller visual weight than any box speaker. My wife hated the bulky box speakers I've had in our living room, but finds the physically larger M3 totally acceptable. They don't overwhelm the room visually...even in the red color I opted for.
As for general listening (moving about the house)...they sound fine as long as long as you're generally in front of the speaker. 90 degree off axis listening is not so great (and they're not really designed for that use). I find the center image "lock" sweet spot on the M3 rather small. If I move a foot in either direction, you can hear it.
This sounds like a weak endorsement, but I do love the M3 and have done more critical listening on this pair than any other speaker I've owned. They're addicting.
For your usage and smaller space, I wonder if you would be better served with something like the Larsen 6 or one of the Shahinian designs.
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I'd say the only critical need for either M4 or M3 is room depth. You really do need 2-3 feet behind the speaker for them to sound their best. Fortunately, their design has a smaller visual weight than any box speaker. My wife hated the bulky box speakers I've had in our living room, but finds the physically larger M3 totally acceptable. They don't overwhelm the room visually...even in the red color I opted for.
As for general listening (moving about the house)...they sound fine as long as long as you're generally in front of the speaker. 90 degree off axis listening is not so great (and they're not really designed for that use). I find the center image "lock" sweet spot on the M3 rather small. If I move a foot in either direction, you can hear it.
This sounds like a weak endorsement, but I do love the M3 and have done more critical listening on this pair than any other speaker I've owned. They're addicting.
For your usage and smaller space, I wonder if you would be better served with something like the Larsen 6 or one of the Shahinian designs.
That I think I should be able to accomadate. I was drawn to these despite larger than I wanted to go becuase I hear they are very "live" and dynamic and takes some of the room acoustics out of the equation. I wouldn't suppose anyone who has these listens to metal or punk or reggae or other sorts of aggressive music? I'm msot curious about the bass. I like ample bass, punchy bass, mmmmmmm bass.
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That I think I should be able to accomadate. I was drawn to these despite larger than I wanted to go becuase I hear they are very "live" and dynamic and takes some of the room acoustics out of the equation. I wouldn't suppose anyone who has these listens to metal or punk or reggae or other sorts of aggressive music? I'm msot curious about the bass. I like ample bass, punchy bass, mmmmmmm bass.
Live, dynamic, and taking the room out of the equation is a good way to describe the m3.
While much of my critical listening is jazz based, I do listen to reggae ( steel pulse, Bob Marley, skatalites, drekker), punk (the cramps, black flag, husker du, bear vs. shark), and prog metal ( tool, perfect circle, queensryche, the cult).
The sound quality of these different genres largely depends on the recording. But, I feel the M3 handles music better when there is a little space between the notes. Overly dense, poorly recorded music (husker du) still sounds bad...as it does on every other speaker.
As for bass, if you're going to put them in a smaller room and can keep them away from the front wall, you'll probably be satisfied. Bass goes to die in my room with our open floor plan, so I'm using 2 15" subs. They help, but I always wish for a dedicated listening room ...with walls and a ceiling.
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Live, dynamic, and taking the room out of the equation is a good way to describe the m3.
While much of my critical listening is jazz based, I do listen to reggae ( steel pulse, Bob Marley, skatalites, drekker), punk (the cramps, black flag, husker du, bear vs. shark), and prog metal ( tool, perfect circle, queensryche, the cult).
The sound quality of these different genres largely depends on the recording. But, I feel the M3 handles music better when there is a little space between the notes. Overly dense, poorly recorded music (husker du) still sounds bad...as it does on every other speaker.
As for bass, if you're going to put them in a smaller room and can keep them away from the front wall, you'll probably be satisfied. Bass goes to die in my room with our open floor plan, so I'm using 2 15" subs. They help, but I always wish for a dedicated listening room ...with walls and a ceiling.
Well then we are kindred spirits. I am a huge fan of The Cramps, Clash, Jesus and Mary Chain, The Cult and lots of dub reggae. I do have some metal (Napalm Death, Pantera, Acid Bath,).
My current speakers (Focal 807) front facia is 34” from the front wall so I think it’s not as severe as I initially thought.
Tell me, do they do a decent job on long low bass pads (like ambient pads)? I’m a big Trepaneringsritualen fan and that’s a big part of what he does.
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WM: There's another post section where people say where in Country they are, so if you said where you are you might hook up with someone who has a pair, much better than auditioning at a show.
Also, my understanding is that the "controlled directivity" of these speakers helps give them punchy not bloated bass. there have been times when I could feel the bass in chest, if that helps....
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Hi,
Talk to Clayton at Spatial Audio. I have a 13X26X9 room and Clayton suggested the M4's for me. I upgraded to the Triode Masters and they are the finest speakers I have ever had in my room in 45 years. OB speakers are wonderful.
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I've got something of an oddly shaped small room (with many walls at different angles) that measures roughly 14.5' x 7' x 12' x 6' x 5' x 5' x 9' - not including the 8' high ceiling. Mathematically that works out to an area of 1,644,300 feet, which seems insanely big for one room in a house; however I'm quite certain that despite the math, the room checks out at less than 200² feet. :lol: :roll:
Anyhow I chose the M3 over the M4 because I preferred the 32 Hz spec to the 40 Hz spec. My previous speakers (boxes) were spec'd to 40 Hz and that just doesn't satisfy quite like bass down to 32 Hz. Personally, I don't see any point in using a boxed sub to go lower. OB bass is of a different quality (cleaner IMO) than boxed bass. :thumb: :thumb:
As for positioning / the way I have them arranged in the room... they are situated 4' off the front wall and spread 12' apart; the sweet spot in the middle is just a tad over eight feet back from each compression driver. I also have the speakers elevated so as to have the compression driver match the height of my ears in the sitting position. It took a few months of moving them around to get them into their final position, but all that effort was worth it. :D :D :D :D :D
Most of the listening I do is background / casual while I'm preoccupied doing other things off to the side. Of course all the magic happens in the sweet spot, but that's how it is with any speaker AFAIC, especially when it comes to sound staging and imaging.
There is / was member who used Odyssey amplification with his Spatial M series and he easily preferred it to the tube amps he had also tried, so I'm certain your amps will be fine. :wink:
If you decide to go down this route, remember they take a while to break in. I had to pound mine hard for almost 100 hours before they began to show signs of promise.
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I had the M3TMs. Black on black with lovely sound.
I had an "L-shaped" upper story, 2/3 being the TV/Audio room,
and the other 1/3 for the bed, dresser. The audio room was about 13x17'.
I had the Spatials about 5' in from the short (13') wall, pointing perpendicular to the the bedroom wing.
(OMG, it wood be so much easier to draw this!)
The point is Im getting at is that even in that moderate sized room,
I could listen up to a certain volume (rock, EDM, orchestral, etc) but had to stop b/c of built up sound pressure
in the room (despite wall & corner room treatments).
I let the speakers go to a guy with a bigger room than I and he is quite happy.
That is just my experience, and I still love the speakers.
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Thanks all. It’s truly appreciated.
As of now my main room (living, dining, kitchen) is 17’ x 36’ but rented so I’m operating under the simulation that future places will be smaller as I age and prepare to drop my body.
Initially I was looking at the M4 but I really want to get u set 40hz. It’s posdibly irrational but who knows.
When it gets closer to time to nail down a decision to purchase I’ll reach out. Right now I’m kicking tires.
I’m in Phoenix, Arizona so if anyone it running these I’d love to hear them.
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Wind chaser,
I am confused by your math, unless you are living in hyper space. Volumetric room dimensions on earth can only be expressed as L x W x H. Room volume is expressed as the product of these three dimensions, which is noted as being "cubic feet."
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My math is based on the length of the rooms seven walls multiplied by the height of the room. The room itself is an odd shape that’s not worth trying to explain. I’ve tried taking a few pictures with an ultra wide lens and I also tried a panorama but... maybe I am living in hyperspace because it’s impossible to record anything in the way of a useful/useable image of this room. :lol:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193741)
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I was all into swearing off floor standing speakers but these really have my attention. I really want to hear them
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Live, dynamic, and taking the room out of the equation is a good way to describe the m3.
While much of my critical listening is jazz based, I do listen to reggae ( steel pulse, Bob Marley, skatalites, drekker), punk (the cramps, black flag, husker du, bear vs. shark), and prog metal ( tool, perfect circle, queensryche, the cult).
The sound quality of these different genres largely depends on the recording. But, I feel the M3 handles music better when there is a little space between the notes. Overly dense, poorly recorded music (husker du) still sounds bad...as it does on every other speaker.
As for bass, if you're going to put them in a smaller room and can keep them away from the front wall, you'll probably be satisfied. Bass goes to die in my room with our open floor plan, so I'm using 2 15" subs. They help, but I always wish for a dedicated listening room ...with walls and a ceiling.
More questions for you: Husker Du aside, are there particular Cramps or Black Flag albums that really fail on these speakers? I mean, S.O.A's album is horribly recorded so obdioulsy there's no way around it but I'm curious.
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My math is based on the length of the rooms seven walls multiplied by the height of the room. The room itself is an odd shape that’s not worth trying to explain. I’ve tried taking a few pictures with an ultra wide lens and I also tried a panorama but... maybe I am living in hyperspace because it’s impossible to record anything in the way of a useful/useable image of this room. :lol:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193741)
I had a similar space that was a nighmare at my last place. Big L-shaped living/dining room, which meant one side had a speaker in a closed off space and the other speaker in a wide open space. Talk about bass imbalance!!
Tried and tried and tried to solve it with box speakers and failed utterly. I tried an OB speaker in a lark (and in desperation) and "magic"! All the room problems were solved in one fell swoop. I've been a massive fan of OB speakers ever since.
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I have a less “problematic” room but it is also a bit of an “odd” configuration. The M3s work just fine here.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193787)
It is open to the left of the speaker (dining room area) and you can see the space extending out on the left as well. To the right, a baby grand at the corner of my living room.
Imaging, soundstage is still excellent.
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SO much great info here and I can't begin to thank everyone.
But let me ask, for those with M4's, any regret not going larger? My current speakers go down to 50hz and by 30hz are roughly -15db. I really like my currents but I want something that goes lower. I see the M4's stop at 40hz (though it'd be interesting to see the slope) and the M3 at 32. I guess I wonder if the M4 would leave me wishing I had gone M3. I do not want to get into subs and such.
Initially my budget was $2k but have recognized that $3k might allow better speakers to enter the equation.
As I said before I was 100% set on the Buchardt s400's and nothing about them so far has turned me off from them, but now the Spatials have me re-thinking. I have a year to drive myself insane on this so I will.
Anyone come from a $2-$4k stand mount to the Spatials?
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Hi M
I have M4TM and came from dynaudio focus 160s and Tyler Taylos,all 3 having a slightly diffrent sound.The focus had the nicest top end to my ears,but the taylos better balanced overall(than Dyns) The spatials play much louder and just seem to be loafing along.The top end of the Spatials took awhile to get used to as I loved the focus's tweeters and find the spatials a bit less "sweet"on top. I ran the M4TM's full range and they reach deeper than either of the monitors,but added a pair of ACI titan XL subs I got a couple miles from me on C-list . In hindsight would probably gone with the M3 just for the bit of extra extension and not having the subs taking up floor space.But I have zero complaints on the M4tms. They sound LARGE and effortless,makes listening a pleasure
I am really interested in hearing some Larsen 6.2s just because of their design and size,might be the next pair I try :D
Happy to answere any ? you might have as to stand mount compared to the OB spatials :thumb:
Craig
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WickedMonkey.
7 walls? is that all you have to deal with?? :wink: :scratch:d
Ribbing you. You would NEED to be a mathematician/engineer to fine tune those frequency waves!
AS posted earlier, I used the M3TMs ins a 13x17' listening room with another leg shooting off to where my bed was.
1. I found that using a faux-barrier on the side of the room towards the bed was able to make better balance b/w L and R channels b/c of matching the bouncing of sound waves on both sides of the speaker. You can use furniture, audiophile barriers to do this with pretty good results.
2. If you may be moving to a smaller space eventually, IMO, I would just get the smaller M4TMs and add one subwoofer, IME, you would not need 2 subs. And this is coming from a person who absolutely loves bass. Im not a basshead (my def: so much bass that it detracts from the SQ of the mids and highs), but bass is critical for me. not just for pace/rhythm, but for "fill". meaning that it is that little extra bass that goes down to 32 hz or so. It just gives me that little extra feeling of live music, or presence of the musicians in the room. You have a big room, and IME, would be fine with one sub in the center b/w your speakers (that is what I prefer).
3. the sweet spot for Spatials has historically been relatively narrow. That is much better these days with Spatial, but still has a focussed spot of best SQ in the triangle setup of speakers and listener. I still found that when I had music playing and was wondering around the room, the SQ was still very good, didn't feel like I was missing anything.
4. Although the Spatials have triode, easier to drive drivers, they still require a bit of power to make them sing.
People use all amps: tubes, SS, class D with good results. But if you run it with tubes, you will need some decent tube power. Class D amps really play well with Spatials. or a hybrid system (like the famous Vinnie Rossi amps that Clayton often uses at trade shows) are great.
5. Feel free to call Clayton in Utah. He is very personable and happy to help. I bought my M3TMs directly from him at a trade show in CA .... at a discount.
In fact, now is the best time to reach out to him. the big AXPONA show just ended 2 days ago, and all those dealers at the show now have Demo equipment on their hands that they want to get rid of. This is a strategy I have used over the years to get basically new gear for a discount. And they've already been burned in for me :green:
best of luck
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Actually my smallish oddly peculiar room isn’t nearly as problematic as I had initially anticipated. I’ve heard the M3ts in three different rooms, mine being the smallest, and without a doubt I know which installation I prefer. :green:
I’ve got mine 4’ off the front walls, almost 4’ away from the nearest side wall, with 12’ between them. This arrangement gives loads of clean deep bass, a very —w—i—d—e— soundstage, and imaging to die for.
Much of this can be attributed to Clayton’s carefully considered design choices that went into the M3ts, like CD (controlled directivity) and the boxless open baffle. Those two elements in particular set these speakers apart from 99.9% of everything else on the market; they enable the M3ts to perform at a very high level without issue, assuming the set up and associated gear is optimal.
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Anyone come from a $2-$4k stand mount to the Spatials?
I tried a couple before settling on the M3ts... the typical stand mount box is so... different from the Spatial experience that... yeah, whatever. I think Seinfeld said it best...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj3VphK9AMk (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj3VphK9AMk)
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I tried a couple before settling on the M3ts... the typical stand mount box is so... different from the Spatial experience that... yeah, whatever. I think Seinfeld said it best...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj3VphK9AMk (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj3VphK9AMk)
Seems to be the theme in that don’t sound anything like stand mounts.
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Seems to be the theme in that don’t sound anything like stand mounts.
Stand mounts can be excellent but they tend to put all the sound out in front of the speakers (and a bit to the sides), but have very little depth of soundstage especially compared to OB. OB speakers just have a bigger, room filling sound.
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Stand mounts can be excellent but they tend to put all the sound out in front of the speakers (and a bit to the sides), but have very little depth of soundstage especially compared to OB. OB speakers just have a bigger, room filling sound.
Which is what I am looking for even if my space is small. That and gut punching bass. And some forgiveness for bad recording to which I have many
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Which is what I am looking for even if my space is small. That and gut punching bass. And some forgiveness for bad recording to which I have many
Yep, OBs are better in all those areas than standmounts, IME.
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Yep, OBs are better in all those areas than standmounts, IME.
HAHA You're making my wallet sweat
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I'll make it sweat a bit more :lol: I'd go with the larger OB. There's nothing like a large woofer sweeping a lot of air for really great, physical bass. The very nice thing about OB speakers and OB bass is that it won't overwhelm a smaller room because of the way the bass couples to the room.
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I'll make it sweat a bit more :lol: I'd go with the larger OB. There's nothing like a large woofer sweeping a lot of air for really great, physical bass. The very nice thing about OB speakers and OB bass is that it won't overwhelm a smaller room because of the way the bass couples to the room.
I'd go M3 vs the M4. I feel like I might regret not "going all the way" as it were. So much for my $2k budget :duh:
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I'd go M3 vs the M4. I feel like I might regret not "going all the way" as it were. So much for my $2k budget :duh:
Just think of it as buying peace of mind :lol:
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Another thing I want to ask: Anyone listen to super bass heavy music? I'm curious as to how well the M3 does with tones in the 50hz on down range when very prevalent in the music.
Examples: Scorn "Look At That" from the album Logghi Barogghi
https://youtu.be/IRqLgQwTdF4
And maybe also: Space Afrika "Uwem/Creation" from the album Somewhere Decent to Live
https://youtu.be/5qUir_O7L7k
And finally: Trepaneringsritualen "Death Worship" from the EP YOurs Is a Kingdom of Death
https://youtu.be/UCo7Eyr_i3I
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Hello !! Greetings....
First post here.
I have personally owned many models of Spatials....M2 Turbo, M1 Turbo, Lumina 12Be, M3TM and currently waiting for my new X series. So I am quite familiar with the range.
Lumina 12Be is obviously the best of the range but I have to let it go...sadly due to relocation....
My advise is, if you can stretch it, go for the bigger M3 instead of M4*.. you will be amazed what the extra woofer size can do.
Spatials play LOUD.....without overloading your room like box speakers do....superb bass speed and control..makes you wanna turn the volume louder and louder until the neighbours call the cops.
*unless your room is very small...
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If you listen to a lot of bass heavy music, go for the model with the bigger woofer. Kozi is right, it just gets louder and more powerful without overloading the room.
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Hello !! Greetings....
First post here.
I have personally owned many models of Spatials....M2 Turbo, M1 Turbo, Lumina 12Be, M3TM and currently waiting for my new X series. So I am quite familiar with the range.
Lumina 12Be is obviously the best of the range but I have to let it go...sadly due to relocation....
My advise is, if you can stretch it, go for the bigger M3 instead of M4*.. you will be amazed what the extra woofer size can do.
Spatials play LOUD.....without overloading your room like box speakers do....superb bass speed and control..makes you wanna turn the volume louder and louder until the neighbours call the cops.
*unless your room is very small...
Yeah, If I go with Spatials it'd definitely be the M3. Might even go triode. I guess my ignorance about open baffle speakers has me both interested and spooked. I know I can send them back but I don't want to be "that guy". I want to make as informed a decision as I can make before pulling the trigger.
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My M3TS are in a 12.5 by 16 room , about 7 feet apart and 4 feet from the back wall.
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Next year I plan on upgrading from my Focal 807's to a new speaker. I have an unhealthy fascination with the Buchardt s400's but lately have been struck by the love people have for the Spatial's. So as I have more time than money I decided to start deep diving and reading on the matter.
So help me out here with a couple of very preliminary concerns:
1. The Size. Mostly likely I will living in increasingly smaller spaces, possibly studio apartments so I'm worried about these getting to a place where I love them but have no room for them. Anyone in this situation?
2. Imaging. From accounts I read the sweet spot is small but super focused. While I do get short spurts of time to sit and listen, I'm generally moving around and cleaning house, etc. Will the size of the sweet spot be a detriment in this case?
Last thing: I will be using these along with Odysey Audio amps and preamps, anyone doing the same?
Thanks in advance.
m
I watched a review on he Buchardt s400's and they are a very interesting design. I would think they would be worth taking a listen to especially if like smaller speakers in your setup. But for me he M3 Turbo S seem to fit my every need. I do run a custom built sub with them that is crossed over very low just to fill in the lowest bass. But otherwise very happy.
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I watched a review on he Buchardt s400's and they are a very interesting design. I would think they would be worth taking a listen to especially if like smaller speakers in your setup. But for me he M3 Turbo S seem to fit my every need. I do run a custom built sub with them that is crossed over very low just to fill in the lowest bass. But otherwise very happy.
Which is one of the things that kind of troubles me. These go down to 32 and yet people run subs. I really don’t want to have to mess with subs.
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I watched a review on he Buchardt s400's and they are a very interesting design. I would think they would be worth taking a listen to especially if like smaller speakers in your setup. But for me he M3 Turbo S seem to fit my every need. I do run a custom built sub with them that is crossed over very low just to fill in the lowest bass. But otherwise very happy.
What kind of amplification are you running? I’m running 110 wpc class AB.
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Many use subs with their Spatial Audio speakers (I have M3TMs) because they are driving the speakers with small tube amps. But I find my pair of GR Research OB subs improve the bass of every speaker I have tried them with. Mind you, I haven't been using huge megabuck speakers that shake the earth by themselves. But yesterday with a 70 watt tube amp on the spkrs and the subs engaged, I played Queen's We Will Rock You so loud I may have foundation damage.
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Many use subs with their Spatial Audio speakers (I have M3TMs) because they are driving the speakers with small tube amps. But I find my pair of GR Research OB subs improve the bass of every speaker I have tried them with. Mind you, I haven't been using huge megabuck speakers that shake the earth by themselves. But yesterday with a 70 watt tube amp on the spkrs and the subs engaged, I played Queen's We Will Rock You so loud I may have foundation damage.
Good point. I’ll be running a tube preamp into a solid state power amp. To be completely honest, I’m ignorant as to how bass works in an OB implementation.
At the end of the day, I want a speaker that can handle my musical tastes.
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Hard for me to think of a type of music that doesn't sound good on my Spatial spkrs.
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Hard for me to think of a type of music that doesn't sound good on my Spatial spkrs.
Thanks. That’s great to know.
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Hard for me to think of a type of music that doesn't sound good on my Spatial spkrs.
I agree. My Spatial M2 Turbo's were the first speaker I'd had in years that opened the door to all genre's. (at generous loudness levels as well if you choose) I'm afraid a lot of today's "audiophile approved" speakers can't say the same.
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I do run subs with mine only to fill in the lowest notes. The Spatials take care of the overall tone and punch of the bass and give the music the drive but my custom built sub just helps fill in the last octave or so below that, but The sub i run is rather small 8" sealed I built myself and like i said just gives the bass the depth I personally like. depending on your musical tastes you might find a sub unnecessary.
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To add to above I have found that blending a sub with them is a somewhat painless process if you can find a sub that is good enough to match the speed and natural presentation that these speakers can deliver, I would look at a small REL or do a custom sealed sub. Or like some owners they are building open baffle subs to go with them using drivers from companies like Acoustic Elegance which I believe Clayton himself uses in some of his designs. Oh by the way I run a Pass Labs X150.5 power amp with mine so power is not an issue to say the least.
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:(
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To add to above I have found that blending a sub with them is a somewhat painless process if you can find a sub that is good enough to match the speed and natural presentation that these speakers can deliver, I would look at a small REL or do a custom sealed sub. Or like some owners they are building open baffle subs to go with them using drivers from companies like Acoustic Elegance which I believe Clayton himself uses in some of his designs. Oh by the way I run a Pass Labs X150.5 power amp with mine so power is not an issue to say the least.
Thanks. It seems like even the maxed TM version still needs a sub. Problem is that I’d basically smash my budget and it’d be a year before I’d be able to get a decent sub. Unless I went M4.
Maybe these aren’t the way I want to go after all.
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If you are living in an apartment, why are you even worried about being able to produce super low bass at high volumes? That's pretty dickish to your neighbors because low bass will pass through walls like they aren't even there.
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Thanks. It seems like even the maxed TM version still needs a sub. Problem is that I’d basically smash my budget and it’d be a year before I’d be able to get a decent sub. Unless I went M4.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-8-reference-series-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7090
https://www.parts-express.com/yung-sd300-300w-class-d-subwoofer-plate-amplifier-module-no-boost--301-508
These are components I used to build my sub and while they are very affordable if built and dampened correctly they will work wonderful with the spatials
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If you are living in an apartment, why are you even worried about being able to produce super low bass at high volumes? That's pretty dickish to your neighbors because low bass will pass through walls like they aren't even there.
Never said high levels. I can listen louder right now as my current speakers roll off at 50hz. Obviously a bassier speaker will demand compromises on volume.
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I’ll look into that.
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If you're in an apartment, you're much better off using a full range OB speaker than you are a subwoofer or a box speaker doing low bass. OB's tend to radiate base in a side-nulling cancellation pattern that helps keep the bass energy in the room rather than passing through it to your neighbors.
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If you're in an apartment, you're much better off using a full range OB speaker than you are a subwoofer or a box speaker doing low bass. OB's tend to radiate base in a side-nulling cancellation pattern that helps keep the bass energy in the room rather than passing through it to your neighbors.
Interesting. So like an OB sub? I hadn’t really thought of that.
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the timbre of the bass is much more accurate and tuneful... Don't let that discourage you. It's a complete speaker top to bottom.
A friend of mine refuses to use a sub since the bass is so satisfying.
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the timbre of the bass is much more accurate and tuneful... Don't let that discourage you. It's a complete speaker top to bottom.
A friend of mine refuses to use a sub since the bass is so satisfying.
I have a shot to hear a model or two (Spatial) this month so I’ll hope for the best.
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the timbre of the bass is much more accurate and tuneful... Don't let that discourage you. It's a complete speaker top to bottom.
A friend of mine refuses to use a sub since the bass is so satisfying.
I do know what he is talking about as I do tend to turn my sub off on certain material because of the natural tonality of the bass notes. Mostly on jazz and music that uses a stand up double bass or instruments that seem to be recorded via microphone rather than through a DI or there own amplifier and the Spatial's will do a very good job of letting the natural tones of the instrument shine. When i use my sub it is mostly on newer recordings or recordings that use electric bass or synthesized bass tones
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I do know what he is talking about as I do tend to turn my sub off on certain material because of the natural tonality of the bass notes. Mostly on jazz and music that uses a stand up double bass or instruments that seem to be recorded via microphone rather than through a DI or there own amplifier and the Spatial's will do a very good job of letting the natural tones of the instrument shine. When i use my sub it is mostly on newer recordings or recordings that use electric bass or synthesized bass tones
Thanks, I have read this as well. I’d say 90% of what I play has electric/synthesized bass which is my concern.
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I like the way that Paul McGowen of PS Audio puts in that any good speaker system even large ones can benefit from a subwoofer. Subwoofers if built and powered correctly and installed into the system and tuned the right way will completely be non detectable. I also subscribe to Pauls hook up method of hooking the sub up to the speaker output leads of the main power amp so that the sub picks up the characteristics of the main power amp of the speakers. I have done this in many systems and have never had a person point out a sub in a system yet. They just sound like an extension of the main speakers.
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I like the way that Paul McGowen of PS Audio puts in that any good speaker system even large ones can benefit from a subwoofer. Subwoofers if built and powered correctly and installed into the system and tuned the right way will completely be non detectable. I also subscribe to Pauls hook up method of hooking the sub up to the speaker output leads of the main power amp so that the sub picks up the characteristics of the main power amp of the speakers. I have done this in many systems and have never had a person point out a sub in a system yet. They just sound like an extension of the main speakers.
Which makes sense. Some have said adding a sub adds dimension to the sound. Not sure I can picture how but what do I know.
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In my experience it does add something to the sound all the way around. I know I will have people on here that will argue this point but when I add the sub to the system my Spatial's seem to breath and sound more emotional and full. Don't get me wrong i have done tests on my Spatial's and they have a very flat response down to around 38 Hz so on the sub i cross over low enough to do nothing but augment the already good low end on the M3's.
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In my experience it does add something to the sound all the way around. I know I will have people on here that will argue this point but when I add the sub to the system my Spatial's seem to breath and sound more emotional and full. Don't get me wrong i have done tests on my Spatial's and they have a very flat response down to around 38 Hz so on the sub i cross over low enough to do nothing but augment the already good low end on the M3's.
So then, honest question: if one with more eclectic tastes will likely add a sub to their set up, why bother with the M3? According to something I read, Clayton Shaw said they are the same (m3 and m4) save for the smaller drivers which result in a higher low frequency ceiling (40hz). So why not save the grand?
I’m genuinely interested in the answers :)
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What a sub brings is low frequencies. A piano goes down to 28HZ as an example. A properly placed sub will add these frequencies and fill out the sound stage as well. A more more linear presentation.
charles
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What a sub brings is low frequencies. A piano goes down to 28HZ as an example. A properly placed sub will add these frequencies and fill out the sound stage as well. A more more linear presentation.
charles
Which totally makes sense. I'm just wondering out loud that if I go M3 and still need a sub, I might be better served by going M4 since I'm adding a sub anyway. I'd like to NOT have to run a sub, but I won't know if I can or not unless I buy. CONUNDRUM. :lol:
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If you're going to end up needing a sub anyway, I'd strongly recommend getting a servo controlled OB sub. Here's a link to one that's DIY that will be the last sub you will ever need. Fully OB and will punch you in the chest like a Mofo, goes all the way down to 16hz strong and goes LOUD:
http://gr-research.com/servosubkit4.aspx
I use a pair of them, built into my Super 7 speakers, and trust me this sub will rock your world.
Oh, but compared to what? Well I've been a bass head all my life, I've owned and built some crazy system. The latest thing I've built is this box sub from Dayton Audio, the 18" Ultimax:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195516)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195517)
I'll tell you what, that 18" Ultimax with a Crown Audio K2 doing 1000 watts into it is freaking awesome. How does the GR Research OB setup compare? The GR Research OB setup is so much better, I'd take it over the Ultimax every day of the week. And twice on Sundays.
Combined with the M3 you'd have a reference level system that you could live with for a very long time, IMO.
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If you're going to end up needing a sub anyway, I'd strongly recommend getting a servo controlled OB sub. Here's a link to one that's DIY that will be the last sub you will ever need. Fully OB and will punch you in the chest like a Mofo, goes all the way down to 16hz strong and goes LOUD:
http://gr-research.com/servosubkit4.aspx
I use a pair of them, built into my Super 7 speakers, and trust me this sub will rock your world.
Oh, but compared to what? Well I've been a bass head all my life, I've owned and built some crazy system. The latest thing I've built is this box sub from Dayton Audio, the 18" Ultimax:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195516)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195517)
I'll tell you what, that 18" Ultimax with a Crown Audio K2 doing 1000 watts into it is freaking awesome. How does the GR Research OB setup compare? The GR Research OB setup is so much better, I'd take it over the Ultimax every day of the week. And twice on Sundays.
Combined with the M3 you'd have a reference level system that you could live with for a very long time, IMO.
I will look into it. Thanks!
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Hey Monkey,
Bass is wonderful, but how much bass will it take to satisfy any given person depends...
Here’s another way of looking at it. How much bass are you accustomed to? For example, if you don’t own a sub and you’ve been happy with stand mounts that get down to 50 Hz, then you won’t be disappointed with the bass of the M4 since it will provide you with more then what you’ve been accustomed to. :D
Myself, I considered the M4 but I knew they wouldn’t satisfy me without a sub because I’d miss having bass extension down to 35 Hz. So I chose the M3 over the M4 in part for that reason, and guess what... I’m perfectly fine without a sub. I would also add that OB bass is flat out superior to boxy bass, and as such quality is better quantity.
The M3 gets down to 32 Hz. That spec is more than deep enough for at least 99% of all music. Sure a piano can go a little deeper, but even if you are fanatical about piano music, how often do piano players hit those deepest notes? Same thing with pipe organs and synthesizers. The point is if you care more about quality than quantity, then there are better ways to make use of limited funds. :thumb:
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Hey Monkey,
Bass is wonderful, but how much bass will it take to satisfy any given person depends...
Here’s another way of looking at it. How much bass are you accustomed to? For example, if you don’t own a sub and you’ve been happy with stand mounts that get down to 50 Hz, then you won’t be disappointed with the bass of the M4 since it will provide you with more then what you’ve been accustomed to. :D
Myself, I considered the M4 but I knew they wouldn’t satisfy me without a sub because I’d miss having bass extension down to 35 Hz. So I chose the M3 over the M4 in part for that reason, and guess what... I’m perfectly fine without a sub. I would also add that OB bass is flat out superior to boxy bass, and as such quality is better quantity.
The M3 gets down to 32 Hz. That spec is more than deep enough for at least 99% of all music. Sure a piano can go a little deeper, but even if you are fanatical about piano music, how often do piano players hit those deepest notes? Same thing with pipe organs and synthesizers. The point is if you care more about quality than quantity, then there are better ways to make use of limited funds. :thumb:
You are very correct. And I freely admit I’m ignorant to the “sound” of OB bass. On paper 32hz is perfect. And maybe I’m just psyching myself out on all this. You are also correct in that I enjoy my Focal stand mounts really only wishing for more bass. I still ponder keeping them and adding a sub, but I do t feel like they are endgame speaker for me.
I have a shot at hearing speakers from Spatial, Zu and Tekton in a couple of weeks and I’m hopeful I come away excited about the Spatial. Even though I wasn’t looking at anything but bookshelf/stand mounts, the Spatials have me excited.
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I have built and own the Dayton Audio Ultimax 18 sealed sub enclosure and it is awesome as a theater sub after i flattened the response with a micro usb. But in saying that it is great for movies in my theater setup, I would never put it with the Spatials as they would never match up well. I use a custom built sub that is much more musical and tight and a much better match. The Ulitimax is a theater king for the money but not a music sub in my opinion
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I have built and own the Dayton Audio Ultimax 18 sealed sub enclosure and it is awesome as a theater sub after i flattened the response with a micro usb. But in saying that it is great for movies in my theater setup, I would never put it with the Spatials as they would never match up well. I use a custom built sub that is much more musical and tight and a much better match. The Ulitimax is a theater king for the money but not a music sub in my opinion
OOF, I have to imaging thats a tough sub for apartment dwellers. :icon_lol:
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Did you get a chance to check these out?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122695)
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Did you get a chance to check these out?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122695)
I did, looked at the plans and all. Not sure thats the direction I'd want to go. Keeping it in mind though.
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I did, looked at the plans and all. Not sure thats the direction I'd want to go. Keeping it in mind though.
Just curious - why not?
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Yeah the Ultimax 18 really kicks for movies and goes all the way down below all movies i have tried. using room eq wizzard and a mini dsp i flattened the response to where it is flat all the way down and really digs deap. My music sub is also a Dayton but it is a HO 8" sealed and really matches with the Spatial's well for a sealed sub not a OB. I keep it crossed over at around 45 Hz or so so it really kicks in when the Spatial's start to fall off which just really picks up the bottom octaves. It really brings things alive in the room though even though it is a small 8". I think that is part of the reason why. The speed of the sub really allows it to match the speed of the spatial bass quite well. But I would love to play around with some of the OB sub options in the DIY world out there like the ones above. I work as a technician at a wood and metal working company so i wood work as a hobby that is why I am able to easily build my subs instead of buying them. Also being good at computers allows me to understand how programs like REW and a MINI DSP work to tame a huge sub like the Ultimax 18"
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Just curious - why not?
I'm trying to avoid a sub if at all possible. I don't know what my future holds except that I will be continuously downsizing and so having a sub means one more piece to have to account for. I don't have the facility to build something (though I like working with my hands) so although I'm not ruling it out, its not where I want to go with things. I did save the links so if thats a way I want to go I'd do it. But as I said, I want to avoid having to run subs if at all possible.
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I'm trying to avoid a sub if at all possible. I don't know what my future holds except that I will be continuously downsizing and so having a sub means one more piece to have to account for. I don't have the facility to build something (though I like working with my hands) so although I'm not ruling it out, its not where I want to go with things. I did save the links so if thats a way I want to go I'd do it. But as I said, I want to avoid having to run subs if at all possible.
Your goal of downsizing seems to be in conflict with your desire for full range bass production.
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I know you say a sub i not ideal and building a custom one is not in your wheelhouse at this point.
https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1MLDY700W&variation=10BLK&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIn8ffscv04gIVkfhkCh074ALKEAYYBCABEgLSzvD_BwE
this little sub right above is a great sub for the money. It's no REL or as good as my custom built one but i don't think you could find to much that could beat it for that price and the thing is small and lite so it would not be that much to deal with. If you are totally against the sub idea I understand but since I have incorporated subs in my systems and done it the correct way they brought so much more to the table I don't think i could go back
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Your goal of downsizing seems to be in conflict with your desire for full range bass production.
Maybe. Or maybe floor standing is the only way to go. I don’t know.
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Tyson,
The 18 inch Ultimax is a nice driver but wrong application imho. HT is fine (in fact excellent), so somewhat unfair in your comparisons.
Others,
I would encourage folks to try drivers that are designed for professional audio and then go for the swarm. I did the OB and Rythmik thing for a few years, then I discovered B&C, BMS and Funk. Quad subs. No bass that sounds like you are in a “submarine” and just as quick if not quicker than Rythmik. My comparisons were to triple OB12’s for each channel and even then, I felt the bass attack/punch was missing. Both setups did not boom at all. But the quad sub swarm won out on freedom from SPL compression and felt livelier giving music even more of a foundation.
It takes measurements and patience. Whether you go for Rythmik, OB Rythmik or professional drivers, you will NEVER escape the REQUIREMENT for proper measurements, room treatments and some EQ. It’s a fact and implementation is what counts! Not blanket assertions that Rythmik and OB are the end all be all! :wink:
I see both the swarm setup and OB Rythmik as the finest examples of state of the art bass but honestly the devil is in the details and the musical requirements of the end user. And whether the individual has the space to implement these designs is terribly important to consider. Enthusiasts of classical music (and orchestra) will more easily appreciate the spatiality afforded by OB Rythmik designs, while for nearly all other genres of music the Geddes/Toole/LeJeune swarm bass system is really the finest I’ve heard (and it’s damn good at classical too).
Different strokes for different folks but the strokes have to be well executed!
Single subs, and full range speakers? That’s prehistoric when considering bass and you’ll run circles in trying to make it sound right. It’s an acoustical nightmare!
Best,
Anand.
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Tyson,
The 18 inch Ultimax is a nice driver but wrong application imho. HT is fine (in fact excellent), so somewhat unfair in your comparisons.
Others,
I would encourage folks to try drivers that are designed for professional audio and then go for the swarm. I did the OB and Rythmik thing for a few years, then I discovered B&C, BMS and Funk. Quad subs. No bass that sounds like you are in a “submarine” and just as quick if not quicker than Rythmik. My comparisons were to triple OB12’s for each channel and even then, I felt the bass attack/punch was missing. Both setups did not boom at all. But the quad sub swarm won out on freedom from SPL compression and felt livelier giving music even more of a foundation.
It takes measurements and patience. Whether you go for Rythmik, OB Rythmik or professional drivers, you will NEVER escape the REQUIREMENT for proper measurements, room treatments and some EQ. It’s a fact and implementation is what counts! Not blanket assertions that Rythmik and OB are the end all be all! :wink:
I see both the swarm setup and OB Rythmik as the finest examples of state of the art bass but honestly the devil is in the details and the musical requirements of the end user. And whether the individual has the space to implement these designs is terribly important to consider. Enthusiasts of classical music (and orchestra) will more easily appreciate the spatiality afforded by OB Rythmik designs, while for nearly all other genres of music the Geddes/Toole/LeJeune swarm bass system is really the finest I’ve heard (and it’s damn good at classical too).
Different strokes for different folks but the strokes have to be well executed!
Single subs, and full range speakers? That’s prehistoric when considering bass and you’ll run circles in trying to make it sound right. It’s an acoustical nightmare!
Best,
Anand.
Oh, the only reason I brought up the Ultimax was to show that the servo OB subs have plenty of output and won't wimp out on music with "high levels of 30hz bass". Which was his concern, I think (ie, will OBs wimp out on high level electronic bass music?).
You are totally right - the Ultimax is not even in the same league from a quality of bass standpoint.
We also agree that servo OB is not the only way to go, a swarm is an excellent approach too, in most ways it's even better. BUT it comes at the tradeoff of more expense, complexity and way, way lower WAF. (Which, as a newly single guy, I now longer have to worry about, #silverlinings)
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So this weekend I got hear a few speakers.
Spatial x5 Saphire (prototype? It was unpainted)
ATC SCM40
Tekton Double Impacts
Zu Soul Supreme
I missed out on Mark audio and Joseph Pulssrs.
So here are my thoughts: the Tekton sounded just as I thought they would. Big, detailed and fills the room.
The Zu were surprisingly nice, not the sound I’m looking for but nice.
The ATC were. HOLY CRAP good. Ultra clean, tight bass that filled the room without getting
Messy or flabby. Best bass I heard all day. Not in my price range but my favorite hands down. It’s more or less the sound I am looking for.
X5 Saphire: of those there in the room, hands down everyone’s least favorite. That tweeter was kicking everyone in the teeth and the bass was largely nonexistent. One of the organizers (and not a Spatial rep) was overheard mentioning they weren’t yet broken in, which is what I hope is the case. I was psyched to hear the M3 so was disappointed to find out that wasn’t what was sent. But still I wanted to here more music and some of it was excellent. A Cat Stevens song was played that filled the room. It was kind of a lo-fi recording (very little top end) but it and everything played before was engaging and filled the room with sound. The bass was lacking and I was running under the assumption that this was what OB bass was. But still lacking. A Tool song was played and while clear, there was almost zero bass guitar and the upper mids were a touch harsh and very forward. When I heard about a potential lack of break in I felt better as I liked a lot of what I heard today.
So yeah. No decisions for me yet. I’m hoping the audio group who puts this on I. A few months will get a M3 that’s plenty run in. I’m dying to hear them.
So after all that I come away better informed but no closer to knowing which direction I want to go in.
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As shown on the website the X3 and X5 are a light woodgrain finish as standard and not painted. As to the tweeter harshness break-in could have been an issue but with the bass it sounds as if they hadn't taken the time to properly set up the bass amp at all or maybe even turn it on as there should have been ample bass.
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As shown on the website the X3 and X5 are a light woodgrain finish as standard and not painted. As to the tweeter harshness break-in could have been an issue but with the bass it sounds as if they hadn't taken the time to properly set up the bass amp at all or maybe even turn it on as there should have been ample bass.
This one was not plugged into Any outlet just speaker cables. So maybe they muffed it. I specifically looked at that as I thought the X series had active bass. I don’t recall seeing an amp back there but I could have missed it. This one was raw MDF.
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Unless Claytons changed something there is a Hypex amp for the bass driver that needs to be plugged into the wall or a power conditioner and then dialed in. It's not a big unit but rectangular and integrates into the stand based on diagrams he showed earlier. Not surprised the bass was lacking and that would exaggerate the upper ranges. Maybe he's sending the demo unit's out unpainted so as not to have to refinish them after each trip.
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Unless Claytons changed something there is a Hypex amp for the bass driver that needs to be plugged into the wall or a power conditioner and then dialed in. It's not a big unit but rectangular and integrates into the stand based on diagrams he showed earlier. Not surprised the bass was lacking and that would exaggerate the upper ranges. Maybe he's sending the demo unit's out unpainted so as not to have to refinish them after each trip.
As weird as it sounds I’d be happy to learn that. It means the Spatials are still on the list.
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Look here post 158. If amp was not connected there would have been basically nothing under 100hz.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=162916.20
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Look here post 158. If amp was not connected there would have been basically nothing under 100hz.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=162916.20
That seems to be how I heard it. When I saw it was an X class I was immediately looking to
See the plate amp.
Well clearly the local audio club guys who put this on are ignorant and/or lazy. Which as I said means I still want to hear the am3. Im excited about it. If anyone in the armpit of this universe is running m3’s I want to come over for an hour and hear them.
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I find it very hard to believe Clayton would let a prototype X5 out in the wild, even with an audio club, let alone without anyone (like himself) with the expertise to set it up.
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I find it very hard to believe Clayton would let a prototype X5 out in the wild, even with an audio club, let alone without anyone (like himself) with the expertise to set it up.
Agreed. I even asked if he was there (or a rep from the company). The jamokes told me they got the speakers shipped in to demo. Same with Tekton. I think ATC was the only one with a rep. Frickin’ excellent system they had. Great sound.
I didn’t get to hear the Salks, Pulsars or whatever was there from Mark Audio. I wish I had.
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Is this the event you went to?
http://www.spatialaudio.us/events
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Tom
This is it and it appears he did send them the speakers.
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/98f371a9-0161-4be0-b668-85bde512384d/downloads/AZAVCLUB%20Flyer.jpg?ver=1561056669974
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Is this the event you went to?
http://www.spatialaudio.us/events
It is indeed. Not a member of that group so I paid at the door. Don’t regret it as it’s fun to hear systems I only read about.
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Hi Guys,
Let me clarify the situation regarding the Speakerfest 2019 event held on Saturday in Scottsdale. I sent a prototype pair of a new design called the M5 Sapphire to the event. This a moderately sized (and priced) passive speaker with one 15 inch woofer and tweeter. It is a very transparent speaker with excellent bass and huge soundstage. Something was apparently wrong with one or both of the speakers, as the show coordinator reported they did not sound right.
I will have to wait until they arrive back on Friday to figure out what happened. It could have been shipping related as well, but I don't know yet. Too bad, but I like the idea of this event where a variety of speakers are demonstrated, allowing listeners to experience many design approaches and compare results. So, I plan to continue supporting this new annual event in the future.
The M5 Sapphire is a significant new product concept that I will introduce this fall. So you will be hearing more about it soon.
Clayton Shaw
spatialaudio.us
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Hi Guys,
Let me clarify the situation regarding the Speakerfest 2019 event held on Saturday in Scottsdale. I sent a prototype pair of a new design called the M5 Sapphire to the event. This a moderately sized (and priced) passive speaker with one 15 inch woofer and tweeter. It is a very transparent speaker with excellent bass and huge soundstage. Something was apparently wrong with one or both of the speakers, as the show coordinator reported they did not sound right.
I will have to wait until they arrive back on Friday to figure out what happened. It could have been shipping related as well, but I don't know yet. Too bad, but I like the idea of this event where a variety of speakers are demonstrated, allowing listeners to experience many design approaches and compare results. So, I plan to continue supporting this new annual event in the future.
The M5 Sapphire is a significant new product concept that I will introduce this fall. So you will be hearing more about it soon.
Clayton Shaw
spatialaudio.us
Good to know. Thanks Clayton. I’m still very much looking forward to experiencing Spatial Speakers as they are the top of my short list. I hear they are having another in a few months hopefully I’ll get my chance then.
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So this weekend I got hear a few speakers.
Spatial x5 Saphire (prototype? It was unpainted)
ATC SCM40
Tekton Double Impacts
Zu Soul Supreme
I missed out on Mark audio and Joseph Pulssrs.
So here are my thoughts: the Tekton sounded just as I thought they would. Big, detailed and fills the room.
The Zu were surprisingly nice, not the sound I’m looking for but nice.
The ATC were. HOLY CRAP good. Ultra clean, tight bass that filled the room without getting
Messy or flabby. Best bass I heard all day. Not in my price range but my favorite hands down. It’s more or less the sound I am looking for.
X5 Saphire: of those there in the room, hands down everyone’s least favorite. That tweeter was kicking everyone in the teeth and the bass was largely nonexistent. One of the organizers (and not a Spatial rep) was overheard mentioning they weren’t yet broken in, which is what I hope is the case. I was psyched to hear the M3 so was disappointed to find out that wasn’t what was sent. But still I wanted to here more music and some of it was excellent. A Cat Stevens song was played that filled the room. It was kind of a lo-fi recording (very little top end) but it and everything played before was engaging and filled the room with sound. The bass was lacking and I was running under the assumption that this was what OB bass was. But still lacking. A Tool song was played and while clear, there was almost zero bass guitar and the upper mids were a touch harsh and very forward. When I heard about a potential lack of break in I felt better as I liked a lot of what I heard today.
So yeah. No decisions for me yet. I’m hoping the audio group who puts this on I. A few months will get a M3 that’s plenty run in. I’m dying to hear them.
So after all that I come away better informed but no closer to knowing which direction I want to go in.
I unpacked and tested the M5 prototypes that were sent down to the Speakerfest in Arizona. Since reports indicated a problem, I thought maybe something was wired wrong, since we had to rush them to Fedex at the last minute. It turned out that one of the speakers must have been dropped hard because the toroidal inductor was loose and shorting against one of the WBT terminals inside the input panel. Its actually our fault because we had to use make-shift packing materials. Anyway -they will be in production in August, so I was a little premature. I may attend the event next year - its sounds like a lot of fun.
Clayton
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So I wanted to ask, as I’ve been eliminating floorstanding speakers from list due to apartment living, since the Spatials aim is to nullify room interaction as much as possible, I wonder about their transfer of vibration through the floor. It’s not about space so much as bass permeating though the apartments around me, specifically above and below.
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So I wanted to ask, as I’ve been eliminating floorstanding speakers from list due to apartment living, since the Spatials aim is to nullify room interaction as much as possible, I wonder about their transfer of vibration through the floor. It’s not about space so much as bass permeating though the apartments around me, specifically above and below.
Consider IsoAcoustic GAIAs for your neighbors under you.
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Ok so I have one last question and I’ll promise not to bug anyone anymore.
Demo’ing these basically wont happen unless I buy them, so I’m trying get the answer to a question.
For those of you who like bassy music, will the M3 replicate the booming 808 as a conventional speaker would? I’m aware it won’t hardly pressurize a room but if I sat in the sweet spot would I get the same effect?
By “booming 808” I’m teferring to Beastie Boys “Brass Monkey”. Hopefully someone here is familiar.
The answer to this basically answers all my questions.
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I think this might be a hard question to answer. For me it is the right amount of bass, for you it might not be
I listen to some Bassy Music For example: Massive attack - Mezzanine, beastie boys, portishead, James Blake. They all sound great to me. It does not really pressurize my room like a BIG sub would. The Bass is NOT boomy, NOT Muddy. The Bass is clean, clear, fast and defined. I know the 808 will sound very nice and defined.
For your consideration I am audio enthusiast and audio video technician so I hear speakers and subs everyday. Still a very hard question for someone else to answer.
I will be home in a few days and I will play a few Beastie Boys Tracks loud, I can let you know more
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You keep trying to compare apples to oranges and no matter how many different ways you formulate the same question the answer will be the same. Bass perception from a box speaker and an OB speaker is different in the same room on the same gear with the same music. I know that to be true because I have tested it. In my Family Room system in a room that is 22'x26'x10' I regularly swap between a pair of Nola KO's and M3TM's with the same gear. Both speakers have similar spec'd bass response but on the same music the bass may reach the same frequency level but the perception of it is different even if they measure the same with a meter. If you're in a smaller room and anticipate moving to a smaller room and want good bass response that is less likely to disturb neighbors order a pair of Burchardt S400's and try them for 30 days and if they don't work send them back. If placed between 18-24" of the wall they will give you bass response into the low 30's. I know because I just tried them for a month. They do everything the reviewers say the do and have a smooth top end too. And the shipping is free both ways. One of Fritz's monitors will also get you great bass response and he will also let you give them a test drive.
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You keep trying to compare apples to oranges and no matter how many different ways you formulate the same question the answer will be the same. Bass perception from a box speaker and an OB speaker is different in the same room on the same gear with the same music. I know that to be true because I have tested it. In my Family Room system in a room that is 22'x26'x10' I regularly swap between a pair of Nola KO's and M3TM's with the same gear. Both speakers have similar spec'd bass response but on the same music the bass may reach the same frequency level but the perception of it is different even if they measure the same with a meter. If you're in a smaller room and anticipate moving to a smaller room and want good bass response that is less likely to disturb neighbors order a pair of Burchardt S400's and try them for 30 days and if they don't work send them back. If placed between 18-24" of the wall they will give you bass response into the low 30's. I know because I just tried them for a month. They do everything the reviewers say the do and have a smooth top end too. And the shipping is free both ways. One of Fritz's monitors will also get you great bass response and he will also let you give them a test drive.
So you’re suggesting I buy speakers you hated enough to return?
Kidding.
Sort of.
I’m not as much comparing so much as using what I can relate to to translate something different I have not yet experienced. I feel like it’s disingenuous to buy something I feel like won’t work. Yes, there’s a return policy but still. My musical interests arent anything Special but aren’t what the music reviewers listen to and probably not by a majority of those on audiophile forums. So I feel like taking someone’s Word about speakers knowing they listen to Diana Krall is basically like explaining the sound to me French.
Don’t worry though. I’ll be gone soon.
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Bass is bass. If you're listening to music with strong bass, it's gonna go through the walls like they aren't there. Whether it's produced by a box speaker or an OB speaker won't matter, physics is physics.
Again, it seems like you want to have speakers that produce a lot of bass while at the same time you don't want the bass to disturb your neighbors. Sorry man, anything that can produce really strong bass is going to disturb the neighbors.
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Did I say I hated them enough to return them? No I didn't but then again you don't seem to take what people tell you to heart because we don't listen to what you do. Some of us have a whole lot more experience then you but when you ask for advice and get it you just move on. Good luck with your endless search as sometimes you just have to pay your money and take your chances.
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Bass is bass.
:slap: :banghead:
If you're listening to music with strong bass, it's gonna go through the walls like they aren't there. Whether it's produced by a box speaker or an OB speaker won't matter...
BULLSHIT! I know from experience box speaker bass is very different from OB bass. You can ask my former neighbors about that.
FACT — I can turn up my M3’s a much louder than any other speaker I’ve previously owned — well into insane concert like SPL’s with bass heavy music in my listening room downstairs; however upstairs (1400 square feet open concept) it’s almost as quiet as library. And if you go into any of the bedrooms and shut the door, you’ll have no problem going to sleep totally unaware of the chaos going on below.
Don’t believe me? Bring your earplugs and SPL meter over to my place in Canada. Hard hat any body armour not required. :D
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:slap: :banghead:
BULLSHIT! I know from experience box speaker bass is very different from OB bass. You can ask my former neighbors about that.
FACT — I can turn up my M3’s a much louder than any other speaker I’ve previously owned — well into insane concert like SPL’s with bass heavy music in my listening room downstairs; however upstairs (1400 square feet open concept) it’s almost as quiet as library. And if you go into any of the bedrooms and shut the door, you’ll have no problem going to sleep totally unaware of the chaos going on below.
Don’t believe me? Bring your earplugs and SPL meter over to my place in Canada. Hard hat any body armour not required. :D
I can only report my experience with my OB setup in my main system downstairs. The deep bass can vibrate the entire house when I crank it. Of course, now that I think about it, my speakers can do well over 100db at 20hz, and are only down 6db at 16hz. I suppose if my speakers only went down to 35hz or so, it might not disturb the rest of the house as much.
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IME Tyson the bass from the GR Research speakers is much better than from the Spatial M Lines. My old Super V's definitely rocked the house, spatials, not so much. So I think it's an apple and orange comparison of Servo controlled OB vs the Spatial line. IMO. It could of course be also different house, room, amps, etc....
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IME Tyson the bass from the GR Research speakers is much better than from the Spatial M Lines. My old Super V's definitely rocked the house, spatials, not so much. So I think it's an apple and orange comparison of Servo controlled OB vs the Spatial line. IMO. It could of course be also different house, room, amps, etc....
Agreed, but I should point out that Spatial does use the servo controlled bass system in the L1 and the L2. I heard the L2 a last year at RMAF and they were pretty incredible.
Having said all that, I did have some different OB speakers about 3 years ago and they only went down to 35hz or so, and I think (based on memory) that Wind Chaser is right - they didn't really shake the house and vibrate stuff like box speakers would.
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20 Hz @ 100 dB would require some interesting source material. The sole purpose of my system is strictly for the enjoyment of music; I’m not into home theatre or listening to test tones.
The fact is a typical box speaker doesn’t have to go down anywhere near 20 Hz or even remotely close to 100 dB to get a rise out of the neighbors. I’ve been in that situation with speakers that don’t go much lower than 40 Hz with SPL’s below 90 dbs.
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20 Hz @ 100 dB would require some interesting source material. The sole purpose of my system is strictly for the enjoyment of music; I’m not into home theatre or listening to test tones.
The fact is a typical box speaker doesn’t have to go down anywhere near 20 Hz or even remotely close to 100 dB to get a rise out of the neighbors. I’ve been in that situation with speakers that don’t go much lower than 40 Hz with SPL’s below 90 dbs.
I'm not sure if you're not reading what I wrote or you are being intentionally obtuse.
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To clarify: I don't want to shake the apartment. I have neighbors. My question is, hearing that OB bass doesn't pressurize a room, would something like the bass from an 808 drum machine still have the pressure conveyed to the listener at the listening position. By all accounts it will the give slam I like, so this would be the other question have.
Maybe I should have done a better job wording my statement initially.
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I just sampled some Beasties, Portishead. I played them at a high Volume. In my room the Speakers do not really Pressurize the room IMO. The Bass is very nice and the way I like it. Deep, Clean and defined. I have no Sub.
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I just sampled some Beasties, Portishead. I played them at a high Volume. In my room the Speakers do not really Pressurize the room IMO. The Bass is very nice and the way I like it. Deep, Clean and defined. I have no Sub.
Perfect. Thank you
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I'm not sure if you're not reading what I wrote or you are being intentionally obtuse.
I don’t know how much music there is apart from techno and trance with much going on below 30 Hz. I’m not into that type of music and am I into home theatre, not that there’s anything wrong with that. :D
However if it takes 20 Hz @ 100 dB for an OB to shake a house, that’s quite something considering I can easily exceed 100 dbs late at night or into the wee hours of the morning on any given day of the week without disturbing anyone’s sleep. OTOH, box speakers incapable of anything much lower than 40 Hz at relatively moderate volumes (<90dbs) have netted complaints from neighbors. :scratch:
So it seems clear to me based on that experience there’s real difference between OB’s and box speakers.
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I don’t know how much music there is apart from techno and trance with much going on below 30 Hz. I’m not into that type of music and am I into home theatre, not that there’s anything wrong with that. :D
However if it takes 20 Hz @ 100 dB for an OB to shake a house, that’s quite something considering I can easily exceed 100 dbs late at night or into the wee hours of the morning on any given day of the week without disturbing anyone’s sleep. OTOH, box speakers incapable of anything much lower than 40 Hz at relatively moderate volumes (<90dbs) have netted complaints from neighbors. :scratch:
So it seems clear to me based on that experience there’s real difference between OB’s and box speakers.
I'm guessing you entirely missed this statement, where I explicitly agree with you re: 35hz OB bass:
Having said all that, I did have some different OB speakers about 3 years ago and they only went down to 35hz or so, and I think (based on memory) that Wind Chaser is right - they didn't really shake the house and vibrate stuff like box speakers would.
Which is why I said:
I'm not sure if you're not reading what I wrote or you are being intentionally obtuse.
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Okay, so maybe I was being a little obtuse in dwelling on the exactitude of the point I was making, but not as an affront to you. Clarity in communication is high fidelity. As with the gear, so with the expression of the mind - always striving for excellence. That’s what this hobby is all about! :thumb: