Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"

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SET Man

Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« on: 25 Apr 2007, 05:14 am »
Hey!

  Okay as some of you vinyl people here might recall that I switched from BPS EVOIII to Benz Micro "ACE" cart :D

  Here is the link to my thread of how and why...

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=37504.0

  A little bit of embarrassing :oops: But! Hey! That's life :lol:

  So, as promised... here is a little review on Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII" :D



Vs.



   Keep in mind that since I broke the BPS so I can't go back to it for a direct comparison. But after living with the BPS for over 2 years and long enough on my new DIY FrakenRega TT. I'm pretty much know it well. So, even if the BPS EVOIII parts of this review and comparison is from my memory. I still think it is still a fair fight. :D

    Here is the link to my FrakenRega TT. Using parts from Rega Planar 2 and 250RB arm on a new End grained chopping board :D

 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=35663.20

Other equipments are....

Audio Note M1 Phono tubed pre..... 12AX7 in Phono and 12AU7 in line stage.

Welborne Lab "Apollo" SET monobloc with KR Audio 842VHD tube.

Speaker are Homemade TQWT with 6" Fostex 167E and FT17H as Supertweeter.

Cables are all homemade.

Power: All plugged in to PS Audio P600

      Okay, a little note..... I am not an analog guru or anything like that. I've never had or can afford a $5k cart or have a chance to to play around with other carts. But here goes my exprienec with these two carts on my own system :D

  Okay, and now.... Leeeeet's Geeeeeeet Readyyyyyy to Rumbleeeeee!"

   With out changing any thing I installed the ACE on my TT replacing the BPS. The installation of the ACE is a bit easier than with the BPS because the ACE have acrylic body. With the BPS it was harder to do so and need more precaution due to the fact that the cart is totally nude. Hmmm... maybe this is why I managed to break it :roll: Well at least this time with the ACE it would be harder for me to snapped off the cantilever. :lol: The loading still the same as 47Kohm as used and recommended by the BPS.

   As of today the ACE is fully broken in. The first thing that I notice is that the ACE seem to have a higher output than the BPS. This is not a good in thing in my system since my step attenuators are already a bit coarse already :?

   The sound from the ACE is noticibly different than the BPS for sure. They are both great tarcker. But somehow the ACE seem to pick up less surface noise than the BPS. This may have something to do with the fact that they used different stylus. BPS with more tradition eliptical vs. ACE's  nude line-contact. Very interesting. :D And with this I do feel and hear more of the inner detail with the ACE than with BPS.

   What really got me the was the midrange between the two. The ACE seem to be on the fuller side than the BPS with better nuance. The ACE sounds more open, more dimensional than the BPS with more of that 3D like layer and that give me the sense of space and depth better than the BPS. This make the BPS sounded a bit muted in the midrange compared to the ACE.

   When it come to the bottom end. Somehow I do feel that the BPS is a bit better than the ACE in  quick dynamic department. But I'm glade to give up a bit of that for the fuller with better definition bottom end of the ACE. It was simply beautiful listening to the Classic Record version of Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" with the ACE. I do hear more of the instrument's body rather than just plucked strings with the ACE. :D

   With high frequency I found it is very interesting between the two carts. I don't know why but I some how feel that the BPS have a somewhat extended respond on top, but with some glare. But! the ACE have a better solid high frequency definition than the BPS.
 
   Now when I'm listening to different stereo equipments I always looking and listening for what I called the sense of flow to the sound of music. :D And I happy to report that the ACE is truly have this. And with this to me the ACE made the BPS sounds mechanical in comparison. :D And the ACE sound fuller, more dimensional, with depth and better nuance.

   As you can see that I'm very impressed with the ACE a lot. True that the ACE cost more than the BPS at $550 for the ACE or $450 with trade-in and the BPS is now $400. But with trade-in the ACE is only $50 more than the BPS... heck! even at $550 if this is what the kind of sound I could get from this Swiss made beauty I would just give up Starbucks coffees for a month and get the ACE! :lol:

   I've been using the BPS for a while the one before was the II version. It is a very nice cart for sure, had been around for a long time and got many great reviews from the mainstream press. But wiith the price of the BPS now at $400 and the arrival of the Benz Micro "ACE"... I don't know if you could call the BPS best buy anymore. So, I think it is time for me and other who are thinking of buying the BPS EVOIII to gratuated to the ACE. :D

  Anyway, other cart that I wish I have a chance to compare in my own system is the Dynavector 10x5 cart :wink: But I have to say that I'm very happy with the ACE and if this is what I'm getting from the almost at the bottom of the line cart from Benz Micro, than imagine what I will get from their more expensive upper cart?  :singing: Good thing that they do have a pretty good trade-in program. :wink:

  So, look like on my TT it is a TKO and the winner goes to the Benz Micro "ACE HO"  :rock:

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:

PS

  I found 1Kohm resistors in my parts box. So, I've just changed the loading resistor from 47Kohm to 1Kohm. I will report back on this change soon. :D

Edited: Oops! Bad typing. :oops: One of the sentence above should be "As of today the ACE is fully broken in." not ".... is not fully broken in" Yes, it got more than 40 hours recommended by the Benz Micro. Well, it wouldn't be make sense for me to write about it if it wasn't broken in right. :lol:


 

   

« Last Edit: 26 Apr 2007, 03:33 am by SET Man »

TheChairGuy

Re: Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« Reply #1 on: 25 Apr 2007, 02:07 pm »
Way to go, Buddy - thanks for that  :thumb:

SET Man

Re: Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« Reply #2 on: 25 Apr 2007, 08:03 pm »
Way to go, Buddy - thanks for that  :thumb:

Hey!

   No problem! :D

    Right now I'm using the ACE with 1kohm loading. Ain't easy to change the loading with my pre... had to open it up, unscrewed nuts, desolder, than soldered in the new resistor and etc. :roll: Good thing I don't have to do this often :lol:

    Will, report back on this loading change soon. :D

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:

TheChairGuy

Re: Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« Reply #3 on: 25 Apr 2007, 08:28 pm »
Yup - 1K give or take a bit - is where almost all 2-2.5mv HO moving coils should be to be properly damped electrically. Oddly, only Benz seems to cough up to that immutable electrical fact....the rest (that I know of - Sumiko, Denon) recommend 47K  :scratch:

TheChairGuy

Re: Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« Reply #4 on: 25 Apr 2007, 10:40 pm »
http://www.goldring.co.uk/moving_coil_cartridges/eroicah_cartridge.htm

tvad, I know we discussed this before...but that is really an inventive thing you did.  As I'm not solder-inclined, I bought an off the shelf solution from db Systems that does the same as your resistive rca set-up.

Your spot-on in your resistive selling on the Eroica. If you're using an outboard phono pre without resistive loading already built-in...you factor in the capacitance of two sets of IC's used and that of the tonearm/leads.  Say, 300pf  :roll:

If you plug 0.2mh inductance and 300pf into Jim Hagerman's handy loading calculator http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html and you get a value of 800 ohms. If you have more capacitance than that, the resistive setting will be lower.  If you have less total capacitance, the setting will be higher. 

TheChairGuy

Re: Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« Reply #5 on: 25 Apr 2007, 11:14 pm »
Capacitive loading is far less useful with MC's than MM/MI's do to their inherently low inductance.  But, you can use some measure of capacitance to fine tune a Moving Coil a couple hundred ohms either way.

Using capacitance with a MM/MI will often move than value thousands or even 10's of thousands of ohms.

The graphs are confusing...took me along time to understand what he was mostly arriving at with them.  Essentially, plug in the known inductance figures that Goldring gives (unusual, most makers seem to want to keep that some sorta' state secret..the new low for full disclosure has to be Sumiko, tho, they give you about nothing to work with) with your estimated total capacitance and you come up with your resonance (peak) frequency of your cartridge in your set-up.

Your goal is to electrically squash that down with a resistive load of equal value so that you have a mostly flat curve out as far as your frequency response goes on that cartridge....or certainly as flat as it falls well outside of 20kHz.

SET Man

Re: Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« Reply #6 on: 25 Apr 2007, 11:34 pm »
    Right now I'm using the ACE with 1kohm loading. Ain't easy to change the loading with my pre... had to open it up, unscrewed nuts, desolder, than soldered in the new resistor and etc. :roll: Good thing I don't have to do this often :lol:

    Will, report back on this loading change soon. :D

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:

FWIW, I am changing resistive loads pretty easily using a pair if F-F>M RCA adapters, and several pairs of male RCA plugs into which I have soldered resistors of various values. Plug the adapters into the phono preamp's inputs, plug the RCA plugs (w/soldered resistors) into one of the available female RCA jacks on each adapter, plug the TT's interconnects into the remaining RCA jacks on the adapters...and voila, you're experimenting with different loads.

I use a label maker to make small labels to mark the barrels of the RCA plugs so I know which are soldered with which resistors.

This makes for a very flexible system that can later be made permanent (or not) when a specific value is chosen.

BTW, the correctt resistive load for my 2.5mV Eroica H cartridge seems to lie somewhere between 580-1000 ohms, but I have yet to narrow it down perfectly. I suspect closer to 1000 ohms than 580 ohms, though.

Hey!
   
  tvad, thanks for the tip. I've read about you RCA plugs resistive loading before and was thinking about it. But I'm not going to change this often and I want to wait or find RCA plugs. Actually I was thinking of solder 2 pieces of wires per channel and run it out put gator clips on them and BAM! I could change resistors any time! But again I didn't do that. :lol: Although I left the cover of my Audio Note open so it won't be that bad if I decided to change it back to 47K or whatever :D If I had to this often than I might just drill a hole on the side of my pre and install a rotary switch with difference loading on it :wink:

 Oh! I found this list of Benz Micro carts spec showing recommended loading range for each of their carts. Very interesting...

http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/cartr.html

   And as for the capacitance loading. I don't I will get in to it.... I think my cable should have enough capacitance already. :D

   Okay, I'm listening to my ACE right now with 1Kohm loading and I like what I'm hearing. Although that is a slightly down side to it. I think I will need more time on this listening to couple of LPs before I could write the follow-up. :D

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:

SET Man

Re: Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« Reply #7 on: 26 Apr 2007, 12:09 am »
Buddy, an analog guru told me...

Hey!

  I see.... and analog guru eh? Does he light incense and candles while he spinning vinyls on his TT? :jester:

  Anyway, tvad4 thanks for the loading calculation. :D

  I'm listening to my ACE right now with 1Kohm and I feel that it is sound better but I at the same time I do feel that it lack a bit of extreme top end... you know that airy feel of the top end. :?

  Maybe I loading it a bit too low.... maybe 1.5Kohm might be the sweet spot. But I wonder if I have a pair of 1.5K ohms resistors in my parts box. :scratch:

  Now I wish I had soldered wires and ran them out from my pre for easy switching of resistor!  :duh:

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:

TheChairGuy

Re: Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« Reply #8 on: 26 Apr 2007, 02:09 am »
ATTENTION: ALL VINYL NEWBIES, RETURNEE'S & WANNABEE'S

Everything we have been talking about in this topic are good, important things to milk that last bit of performance from any cartridge.  Resistive and Capacitive loading is important...but probably far down the scale of things to get right in setting up your vinyl-based front end.

It's important, but in the scale of things to do right and wrong, it would have to rank as fairly esoteric.

It won't make a bad cartridge sound great...it'll only improve or degrade it's performance a bit depending on how it's loaded.

Just in case any of you thought this was an absolutely necessary part of the vinyl experience - it's not - unless you want it to be.

Throw a cartridge on the end of that tonearm, load it into some phono stage and spins some records.  If it sounds good that way - enjoy it.  If you want to do more to improve it, learn some more.  But, don't get ticked off...it takes some time to dial it all in right. I'm at 25 years doing this and I'm definitely still learning each day.

There's so few of us as it is; I didn't want to hear the crash and thud of dozens of newbie tables being tossed from the upstairs bedrooms out there in frustration with vinyl set-up  :icon_lol:

Crass non-commercial message now ended :wink:....John

TheChairGuy

Re: Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« Reply #9 on: 26 Apr 2007, 02:00 pm »
For MC's, it's a secondary thing.

For MM/MI's, I'd have to say tertiary.  As they are less prone to rising treble peaks correspondingly, less attention to loading is typically needed.

If you don't have your arm in align, balanced, with the right tracking force and on a stable platform....all the fiddling about loading ain't gonna' matter.

For the vast majority of MM/MI's, I'd have to rate vacuum cleaning your records as more effectively improving the vinyl experience.

Not that cartridge loading isn't important....I just wanted newbies and the uninitiated to know what's being discussed is not the first thing to approach to get quality vinyl sound.

TheChairGuy

Re: Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« Reply #10 on: 26 Apr 2007, 03:56 pm »
 :thumb: We're in tune now  :violin:

SET Man

Re: Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« Reply #11 on: 15 May 2007, 11:47 pm »
Hey!

    Well it had been a while. But here is a little update. As some of you might remembered that I felt that 1K ohm loading seem a little dull on the extream high top.

   I ordered some parts from Micheal Percy and with that I ordered Roederstein 1.18K and 1.54K resistors. :D

    And the good news is that in my system I settled on 1.18K :D Pretty amazing of how just 180 ohms more could make very noticeable difference.  :o

  Okay, so I think the last chapter on my new Benz Micro "ACE" HO cart. Well, I am very happy with the sound. :D Now I just have to relax and just enjoy the music. :singing:

   Oh! I have to thanks tvad4 for a very helpful info on loading value. :D

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:

   

TheChairGuy

Re: Benz Micro "ACE HO" Vs. Sumiko "BPS EVOIII"
« Reply #12 on: 16 May 2007, 05:35 am »
Way to go, Buddy  :violin: