I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...

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ted_b

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #80 on: 3 Apr 2010, 09:31 pm »
Oh man, I would love to hear the shootout!  I thought it was this weekend.

We are in Cleveland now and just got back from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.  Got to see the U2 3D concert video in their THX 3D theater!  WOW!  That was an experience!  It had a very good sound system and it was well setup!   :D

You were in my town!  Shoulda come by!   :thumb:

dBe

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #81 on: 4 Apr 2010, 12:08 am »
Oh man, I would love to hear the shootout!  I thought it was this weekend.

We are in Cleveland now and just got back from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.  Got to see the U2 3D concert video in their THX 3D theater!  WOW!  That was an experience!  It had a very good sound system and it was well setup!   :D
Rich, we can just email back and forth and cry in our beer about not being there  :(

Dave

HAL

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #82 on: 4 Apr 2010, 02:22 am »
Dave,
Sounds like a plan to me. 

Will be standing by with a good beer and conversation! :)

HAL

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #83 on: 5 Apr 2010, 12:49 am »
ted_b,
If I only had known!   :duh:

Probably not the last trip to Cleveland.  Had alot of fun at the RRHOF!   Will keep you posted.

Rapt

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #84 on: 10 Apr 2010, 10:55 pm »
Yep, and we are going for the next round next Saturday. And we got ahold of an Arye DAC for a reference.

      Waiting for the results  :thumb: :thumb:

Danny Richie

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #85 on: 11 Apr 2010, 12:46 am »
We just finished. It was a long day and we have a TON of information from this that even goes way beyond what you can imagine. You guys may be floored by the results. Stand by. This is going to take a while to compile, and some of the guys that just left have a long drive home.

woofersus

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #86 on: 11 Apr 2010, 01:37 am »
Awesome, can't wait to read about it!

dBe

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #87 on: 11 Apr 2010, 02:14 am »
We just finished. It was a long day and we have a TON of information from this that even goes way beyond what you can imagine. You guys may be floored by the results. Stand by. This is going to take a while to compile, and some of the guys that just left have a long drive home.
So.... floor me, man.  My head is gonna explode!!!   :bomb:

 :thumb:

Dave

*Scotty*

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #88 on: 11 Apr 2010, 02:28 am »
Danny,was there time before the shootout to break-in all of the DACs before you listened to them? If there wasn't enough break-in time your results could have been altered in unexpected ways. I know I have heard some DACs go south somewhere in the middle of the process only to completely change for the better after yet another two weeks of continued break-in. I ask because I know you were trying get everything together within a limited time frame.
Scotty

sl_1800

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #89 on: 11 Apr 2010, 02:58 am »
Danny,  thanks for letting me be a part of the DAC Shootout, it was a blast.  I have a full day the next few days so it will be a few before I can report my opinions on the DAC's we heard.  But folks as Danny has already mentioned the results were much different than I would have expected.

Keep in mind that I come from the camp of wires don't make that much difference, electronics don't make that much difference, power conditioning does almost nothing...........I was wrong on each count.  I heard a usb cable that I'm going to buy, the difference in the DAC's was amazing and the straw that broke the camels back was the Dodd balanced power supply and the Ubber Buss.  I think we all learned that high prices does not guarantee great results.......more later.

satfrat

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #90 on: 11 Apr 2010, 03:03 am »
Danny,  thanks for letting me be a part of the DAC Shootout, it was a blast.  I have a full day the next few days so it will be a few before I can report my opinions on the DAC's we heard.  But folks as Danny has already mentioned the results were much different than I would have expected.

Keep in mind that I come from the camp of wires don't make that much difference, electronics don't make that much difference, power conditioning does almost nothing...........I was wrong on each count.  I heard a usb cable that I'm going to buy, the difference in the DAC's was amazing and the straw that broke the camels back was the Dodd balanced power supply and the Ubber Buss.  I think we all learned that high prices does not guarantee great results.......more later.

Welcome to the dark side my friend. Expect everything you're going to say you've heard to be defuted and ridiculed,,,, but don't worry, you'll get use to it like the rest of us who trust our ears and believe what we hear.   :notworthy:   :thumb:
 
Cheers,
Robin

HAL

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #91 on: 11 Apr 2010, 04:07 am »
Now this sounds interesting!  :D

Oscillate

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #92 on: 11 Apr 2010, 03:13 pm »
(I don't wish to hijack this thread ...so I'll only ask this one question, as it seems currently 'on topic')


Satfrat, how much & what kind of difference did you notice in the sound of your DAC(s)
after going to a highend fuse (ex. IsoClean, Furutech, HiFi-Tuning, etc...) please?

satfrat

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #93 on: 11 Apr 2010, 03:57 pm »
(I don't wish to hijack this thread ...so I'll only ask this one question, as it seems currently 'on topic')


Satfrat, how much & what kind of difference did you notice in the sound of your DAC(s)
after going to a highend fuse (ex. IsoClean, Furutech, HiFi-Tuning, etc...) please?

PM sent.

roscoeiii

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #94 on: 11 Apr 2010, 10:59 pm »
Hey DACers,

maybe a lil nibble or sneak peek of findings??? We're mighty curious out here... :drool:

texasphile

The Great DAC Shootout of April 2010
« Reply #95 on: 12 Apr 2010, 12:33 am »
Hello all.  I was a participant in the 10 April 2010 USB DAC Shoot-out.  Here are my thoughts on each DAC with a ranking of each at the end of the review.  The DACs were, in alphabetical order, the Ayre, dB Labs, Onix, PS Audio, and an inexpensive USB DAC whose name I cannot recall.  Please note that I was not completely familiar with the cost of the various DACs until after the Shoot-Out was completed.

As background, my personal tastes lean to Vinyl (and Reel to Reel player at work!), and I use a Lite-on DAC 60 with GR-Research Step 1 mods, GR-Research O-3 speakers (and occasionally  my Soliloquy 8.1 speakers), and a PC with Xonar HDAV sound card as the SPDIF digital stream output, Dodd Audio pre-amp and either my Belles Hot Rod amp or Chiro C-200 amp.

Danny can provide better specifics, but with the exception of the PS Audio, all DACs were tested using a Mac Mini outputting a digital stream and connected to each DAC with a USB cable.  The same power cord and cable was used throughout.  However, the PS Audio was tested as a DAC/Transport combo connected with an HDMI cable.  The PS Audio DAC was also tested separately using its USB digital interface to provide a more fair comparison to the other DACs.

Ayre:  The Ayre had a good top to bottom balance with "the best of the bunch" harmonic undertones.  It was very musical with a tendency toward a "laid-back" sound.  It had a rather nice balance to its sound reproduction.  The female vocal, as provided by Diane Warren was, to me, a bit too forward in the aural presentation.  Some upper midrange sounds had a small touch of forwardness and were very slightly "digital" sounding.  Instruments were presented a bit more crowded together than the dB Labs.   It had a slightly veiled sound which would not have been noticeable if the other DACs had not been present as a comparison.  Overall, I found it to be an enjoyable and easy to listen to DAC.

dB Labs:  The dB Labs DAC had very crystalline highs, perhaps the best that I have ever heard from 16 bit music.  The sustain of the instruments was very good.  The sound was clean with a nice wide soundstage.  The DAC had a very open sound that was slightly "laid back" and the bass region was nice and taut.  Overall the sound had a nice analog character.  In the most distinctive difference of all the DACs, using the music of artist Jack Johnson, the DAC excelled in reproduction of the natural-ness of the male vocal.  The soundstage depth was slightly shallow compared to the PS Audio DAC/Transport solution using its HDMI connector to connect both the Transport and the DAC.

Onix:  The Onix was a better than average DAC, with a slightly strained sound and presented itself as a little fuzzy or veiled sounding.  It was smooth except in the upper mid-range which I found to be a bit too aggressive for my tastes.  The soundstage was flatter than the Ayre, dB Labs, and PS Audio and I thought that it was a very good value as long as you had speakers that provided a more "dark" presentation.  It was definitely worth looking into as a very good value for its price point.  Personally, it is not a DAC that I would purchase, but given the right system it might be fine for others.

PS Audio:  The PS Audio was tested two ways, one as the company preferred Transport/DAC combination and one using the USB input of the DAC driven by the Mac Mini setup.  Firstly, the DAC/Transport combination with HDMI connection had the deepest soundstage of the DACs.  It also had a relatively narrow soundstage in that setup which was localized between the two speakers and, oddly enough, did not make the speakers "disappear" in the room.  The bass was slightly tubby and bloated, but was not un-enjoyable and I am certain the younger audiophiles used to the bottom heavy songs of today would enjoy its low end presentation more than the other DACs presentation of similar material.  The second test of the PS Audio, using only the DAC with the USB instead of HDMI input, presented itself quite differently.  The soundstage was less deep, but it became significantly wider with instruments being spaced further apart and less "stuck together."  The bass became a bit more loose than it had been and female vocals became less forward sounding.  The mid to lower mid-range sounded very good indeed.  I preferred the sound of the Ayre and dB Labs highs as compared to the PS Audio in either of its configurations.  I definitely preferred the sound of the DAC by itself and not conjoined with the PS Audio transport.  I would definitely be interested in hearing the PS Audio DAC being driven by an ASUS Xonar HDAV 1.3 Slim PC Audio card (I do not use Mac computers - "I'm a PC").  The Xonar Slim has HDMI output capabilities and  I wonder if there is any difference between the PC sound card and the PS Audio Transport.

USB DAC:  I personally did not care for this DAC.  I found it to be too aggressive and "digital" sounding for my tastes.  If used with computer system speakers and at a rather low volume for recreational listening perhaps it could be useful, but I found the sound too irritating for my ears.  I believe that I am the only one who had this opinion of the DAC, so take that as a lone voice in the wilderness.

Conclusions:  As ranked in an order of personal preference, I would rank the DACs in the following order:  dB Labs, Ayre, PS Audio, Onix, and the USB DAC.  I felt that the dB Labs and Ayre were rather close in sound with the edge going to the dB Labs and both were better than the PS Audio by a small but noticeable amount and  that the Onix was above the average in its price class (though not in the same class as the first three units) with the USB DAC trailing a good ways behind the others.  I found the PS Audio setup to sound better in a Mac Mini computer-fed USB interface configuration rather than the DAC/Transport combination recommended by PS Audio.

sl_1800

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #96 on: 12 Apr 2010, 01:18 am »
Texasphile,  nice write up on the DAC's.  I will get my finding posted in a few days, very busy next couple of days.

Jon L

Re: The Great DAC Shootout of April 2010
« Reply #97 on: 12 Apr 2010, 01:54 am »
  I would definitely be interested in hearing the PS Audio DAC being driven by an ASUS Xonar HDAV 1.3 Slim PC Audio card (I do not use Mac computers - "I'm a PC").  The Xonar Slim has HDMI output capabilities and  I wonder if there is any difference between the PC sound card and the PS Audio Transport.

Unfortunately, sound cards and DVD players with HDMI output will NOT be able to drive the PS Audio DAC HDMI input, since PS audio's HDMI implementation has nothing to do with the HDMI standard, just using the HDMI connectors with different pinouts for I2S use (a bad decision IMHO). 

It suprises me that you found the PS transport/I2S not as good as USB input and wonder if the myriad of upsampling and other settings were optimized the the PWT/PWD combo.  It would have been interesting to try a different transport, say a Lynx card with AES digital output, to the PWD.  Thanks for your impressions..

roscoeiii

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #98 on: 12 Apr 2010, 01:58 am »
For DIY types, Paul from PS Audio has posted the schematic for their HDMI I2S standard over at diyaudio. Wyred4Sound, which also uses that I2S over HDMI (not sure if it is the same standard as PS Audio, but likely so) will also be offering a service to mod other players for an I2S HDMI output.

HAL

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #99 on: 12 Apr 2010, 02:02 am »
roscoeiii,
Do you have a link to the info at PS Audio on the HDMI I2S Bus interface?