AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: dBe on 20 Dec 2009, 04:19 am
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what happened??? Who won??? Who was left in a bloody heap on the floor?????
Anybody?
Anything?
:bounce:
Dave
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Postponed...
You'll have to wait until just after the holidays. More DAC's are on the way anyway, so it could get even more fun.
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Postponed...
You'll have to wait until just after the holidays. More DAC's are on the way anyway, so it could get even more fun.
Drat! I'm still in a hover mode on which way to go. Pre-senile dementia?
See you here after Christmas?
Dave
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Pre-senile dementia?
Dave
Hey now, I resemble that remark,,, I think? :scratch: :lol:
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When is this shootout and where?
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Oh man... I think I broke my F5 key yesterday watching this thread! ;-)
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did the first round occur yet?
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We had an interesting first round and truly had some of the best DAC's available that I know of. All were very impressive!
There are a lot of notes that I have to go through from everyone and type up so give me a little time to compile all of it.
Things may change in the next round as we move to a different system. So I'd really like to not base everything about every DAC just off of this one day on my system. That wouldn't be fair.
We also added a second row of seating in my den. One thing we noticed as we swapped places was that our favorite tending to change as we changed seats (at least in one comparison). One DAC that had a little more bottom end was preferred in the sweet spot but moving to the second row where bass was a little heavier, the more bass shy DAC was liked. Adding some heavy foam treatments to my back wall tending to smooth those things out a little bit. Interesting to note though.
We are also still trying to get an Arye DAC over so we can have a comparison to a well known reference. Too many of these great DAC's are new or lesser known. We need a good reference.
Without going into comparisons....
The Neko Audio D100 is very good. Info on it can be seen here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69315.0 I have no problem recommending someone give it a try.
One thing that might have been holding it back some in the comparisons was that it only has balanced outputs. Cables were supplied to convert it to RCA's but the cables (seen here: http://www.nekoaudio.com/#accessories ) were no where near the level or quality of the RCA's used on everything else.
We ran the Neko on the fiber optic input from the Mac Mini.
The 32 bit buffalo DAC kit was also very good. It was running on batteries. The fiber optic from the Mac Mini sounded okay but when we plugged it in using the Ridge Street Audio Alethias USB cable, the performance across the board went up a significant amount. I have no problem recommending it as well.
The db Labs Tranquility was also very good. It is USB only and we were also using the Ridge Street Audio Alethias cable on it. I have no problem recommending it too.
Another big favorite was an evaluation board sent from Wolfson. It showcased their latest technology and we are still exploring just what can be done with it. I don't really know just yet how to handle this one. It is not really a product or even a kit. All the pieces are out there to replicate it for now, but I don't think too many evaluation boards were made. It might wind up in a product or as a DAC kit some time in the future as there was interest in this from the individual that sent it here for testing and feedback. It was really, really good!
Another one that was not bad at all and peaked all of our interest was an inexpensive Chinese made DAC kit. I really don't know much about it yet. It had all the inputs including USB. The guy that sent it is also exploring what can be done with it and how far it can be taken. It has an output tube that can be rolled, caps that can be upgraded, and it could be converted to run on batteries... So it could get much closer to the high dollar stuff for (as my good friend in Boston says) short money.
So hold on and more info will come.
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We had an interesting first round and truly had some of the best DAC's available that I know of. All were very impressive!
There are a lot of notes that I have to go through from everyone and type up so give me a little time to compile all of it.
Things may change in the next round as we move to a different system. So I'd really like to not base everything about every DAC just off of this one day on my system. That wouldn't be fair.
We also added a second row of seating in my den. One thing we noticed as we swapped places was that our favorite tending to change as we changed seats (at least in one comparison). One DAC that had a little more bottom end was preferred in the sweet spot but moving to the second row where bass was a little heavier, the more bass shy DAC was liked. Adding some heavy foam treatments to my back wall tending to smooth those things out a little bit. Interesting to note though.
We are also still trying to get an Arye DAC over so we can have a comparison to a well known reference. Too many of these great DAC's are new or lesser known. We need a good reference.
Without going into comparisons....
The Neko Audio D100 is very good. Info on it can be seen here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69315.0 I have no problem recommending someone give it a try.
One thing that might have been holding it back some in the comparisons was that it only has balanced outputs. Cables were supplied to convert it to RCA's but the cables (seen here: http://www.nekoaudio.com/#accessories ) were no where near the level or quality of the RCA's used on everything else.
We ran the Neko on the fiber optic input from the Mac Mini.
The 32 bit buffalo DAC kit was also very good. It was running on batteries. The fiber optic from the Mac Mini sounded okay but when we plugged it in using the Ridge Street Audio Alethias USB cable, the performance across the board went up a significant amount. I have no problem recommending it as well.
The db Labs Tranquility was also very good. It is USB only and we were also using the Ridge Street Audio Alethias cable on it. I have no problem recommending it too.
Another big favorite was an evaluation board sent from Wolfson. It showcased their latest technology and we are still exploring just what can be done with it. I don't really know just yet how to handle this one. It is not really a product or even a kit. All the pieces are out there to replicate it for now, but I don't think too many evaluation boards were made. It might wind up in a product or as a DAC kit some time in the future as there was interest in this from the individual that sent it here for testing and feedback. It was really, really good!
Another one that was not bad at all and peaked all of our interest was an inexpensive Chinese made DAC kit. I really don't know much about it yet. It had all the inputs including USB. The guy that sent it is also exploring what can be done with it and how far it can be taken. It has an output tube that can be rolled, caps that can be upgraded, and it could be converted to run on batteries... So it could get much closer to the high dollar stuff for (as my good friend in Boston says) short money.
So hold on and more info will come.
Looks like I'm going to have to drive to Iowa Park and stick some bamboo slivers under your fingernails to get some more info, eh?
BTW, the Buffalo uses the same DAC as in the new OPPO BDP83SE...
:green:
Dave
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BTW, the Buffalo uses the same DAC as in the new OPPO BDP83SE...
Yeah, it uses the same chip set. Everything else could be different. If we had just stuck with the fiber optic input then it wouldn't have fair well against the others. Using the USB (I think I2S input) was a completely different story.
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Would you say the Tranquility DAC is the best that has ever existed like the impressions people are leaving on that thread, or is it one of the better ones, but perspectively similar.
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I'd like to see the new AVA dac included in the shootout especially since it uses the new Wolfson 8742 digital chip set.
-Roy
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I'd like to see the new AVA dac included in the shootout especially since it uses the new new Wolfson 8742 digital chip set.
-Roy
I don't see Frank sending one in though. It would be nice...
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Would you say the Tranquility DAC is the best that has ever existed like the impressions people are leaving on that thread, or is it one of the better ones, but perspectively similar.
I'd say that if you were looking at the best DAC solutions out there, with cost being no object, then you'd still have to consider the Tranquility. It certainly shares the top notch level. It will be give and take with some of the others we just listened to so my recommendation is try it for yourself.
I'd like to see the new AVA dac included in the shootout especially since it uses the new Wolfson 8742 digital chip set.
He was invited (in his forum) to send one.
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BTW, the Buffalo uses the same DAC as in the new OPPO BDP83SE...
:green:
Dave
Hi Dave & Danny,
I read the following on DIY a little while back.
This was from Brian @ Twisted Pear Audio
"They are using the lesser performance ES9006 and ES9016 though, not the 9018."
I am not making any judgement about sound since I have not heard the SE version.
The Buffalo 32s is really special IMHO.
Sounds like the DAC shootout was a good time. :thumb:
-Nick
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I'd say that if you were looking at the best DAC solutions out there, with cost being no object, then you'd still have to consider the Tranquility. It certainly shares the top notch level. It will be give and take with some of the others we just listened to so my recommendation is try it for yourself.
He was invited (in his forum) to send one.
While I am big believer in ID companies and know that you can get killer value from many of them, I have yet to hear ANY audio product that retails around the price of the Tranquility DAC that can hang with or is equal to the best out there. I know that price doesn't guarantee or equal performance, but I also know that price does play some part in the equation - especially when trying to obtain SOTA performance.
I am not saying that the Tranquility DAC can't or doesn't sound good (heck, I have never heard it and I can't even try it as I have no use for a USB DAC in my setup), but it seems more than a little "over the top" to make the claim that one should consider it if funds were unlimited. Heck, I think I have a pretty damn good digital front end and I know that if you gave me $10k I could better it. Maybe not by a ton, but I have no illusions that there isn't a better digital source out there.
While I applaud you for providing an opportunity to let people directly compare digital sources in the same setup, maybe a little less hyperbole would go a long way towards getting people interested - sort of the approach you have taken with other products (like the Makijk and Uber Buss for example).
George
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I'm particularly interested in the Buffalo DAC and the inexpensive Chinese DAC.
I hope Virtue had its DAC or Pre-DAC available for the shootout.
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While I applaud you for providing an opportunity to let people directly compare digital sources in the same setup, maybe a little less hyperbole would go a long way towards getting people interested - sort of the approach you have taken with other products (like the Makijk and Uber Buss for example).
If the Majik Buss and Uber Buss lived up to what I said that they would do, then rest assured that the DAC that I just mentioned will also.
I guess one mans hyperbole is another mans simple and honest answer.
I am not campaigning for any of these DAC's or DAC companies. I am doing the comparatives because it is fun and interesting. I don't really care if you try any of them or not.
I tell you what though George. I bet you will be really hard pressed to find any CD player or transport and DAC combo at any price that will outperform an inexpensive Mac Mini and a Tranquility DAC. Or for that matter, this tricked out Buffalo DAC kit being feed by a Mac Mini.
We are working on getting an Arye here for the next round of comparisons. What do they cost? Anything that you want to bring or send is welcome.
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While I am big believer in ID companies and know that you can get killer value from many of them, I have yet to hear ANY audio product that retails around the price of the Tranquility DAC that can hang with or is equal to the best out there. I know that price doesn't guarantee or equal performance, but I also know that price does play some part in the equation - especially when trying to obtain SOTA performance.
I am not saying that the Tranquility DAC can't or doesn't sound good (heck, I have never heard it and I can't even try it as I have no use for a USB DAC in my setup), but it seems more than a little "over the top" to make the claim that one should consider it if funds were unlimited. Heck, I think I have a pretty damn good digital front end and I know that if you gave me $10k I could better it. Maybe not by a ton, but I have no illusions that there isn't a better digital source out there.
While I applaud you for providing an opportunity to let people directly compare digital sources in the same setup, maybe a little less hyperbole would go a long way towards getting people interested - sort of the approach you have taken with other products (like the Makijk and Uber Buss for example).
George
Hi George,
Which DAC outperforms the Tranquility? And in what respect?
It sounds like you are making a decision solely based on price. It's a bit like saying if they charged $20k you would believe its better than whatever you have in mind at $10k. From what I read, Danny said there would be some give and take in a direct comparison... that seems pretty reasonable way to convey the performance, not really hyperbole.
How do we price a component? Is it just the cost of parts? or a factor of the time of R&D in design? If you spend about the same for parts, and about the same amount of time designing, and decide to average it out over 1000 units instead of 100, then you can afford to make one 10% the price of the other... so its not that big a reach, to my way of thinking.
Now if a designer has some unique insight, that someone else has overlooked, it seems like that might be able to offer considerable leverage to the performance to price ratio. I don't know whether or not it is true, here, but seems possible.
But it really comes down to how they perform, doesn't it? Seems like a few shootouts are going to be helpful, but unlikely to prove definitive for everyone.
-Tony
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If the Majik Buss and Uber Buss lived up to what I said that they would do, then rest assured that the DAC that I just mentioned will also.
I guess one mans hyperbole is another mans simple and honest answer.
I am not campaigning for any of these DAC's or DAC companies. I am doing the comparatives because it is fun and interesting. I don't really care if you try any of them or not.
I tell you what though George. I bet you will be really hard pressed to find any CD player or transport and DAC combo at any price that will outperform an inexpensive Mac Mini and a Tranquility DAC. Or for that matter, this tricked out Buffalo DAC kit being feed by a Mac Mini.
We are working on getting an Arye here for the next round of comparisons. What do they cost? Anything that you want to bring or send is welcome.
The Majik and Uber Buss are indeed nice, but on their own I wouldn't take either one over my Furman IT Reference 20i.
I think adding an Ayre USB dac into the equation is a great idea. I am sure there are others as well. I know that the Weiss DAC2 is an excellent USB DAC and I have heard it sound very good in a few different setups.
Since I only have a single source, I can't exactly send you my Modwrigtht Transporter to add to the mix. If you can find a local one or somebody to provide one, I think it would be interesting to have it in your comparison.
George
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The Majik and Uber Buss are indeed nice, but on their own I wouldn't take either one over my Furman IT Reference 20i.
And as a stand alone, I wouldn't take either over my Dodd Audio balanced power supply. But they are both a nice addition and well worth their price (no hyperbole) or I wouldn't be offering them.
Since I only have a single source, I can't exactly send you my Modwrigtht Transporter to add to the mix. If you can find a local one or somebody to provide one, I think it would be interesting to have it in your comparison.
Maybe Dan would like to send one?
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Hi George,
Which DAC outperforms the Tranquility? And in what respect?
It sounds like you are making a decision solely based on price. It's a bit like saying if they charged $20k you would believe its better than whatever you have in mind at $10k. From what I read, Danny said there would be some give and take in a direct comparison... that seems pretty reasonable way to convey the performance, not really hyperbole.
How do we price a component? Is it just the cost of parts? or a factor of the time of R&D in design? If you spend about the same for parts, and about the same amount of time designing, and decide to average it out over 1000 units instead of 100, then you can afford to make one 10% the price of the other... so its not that big a reach, to my way of thinking.
Now if a designer has some unique insight, that someone else has overlooked, it seems like that might be able to offer considerable leverage to the performance to price ratio. I don't know whether or not it is true, here, but seems possible.
But it really comes down to how they perform, doesn't it? Seems like a few shootouts are going to be helpful, but unlikely to prove definitive for everyone.
-Tony
There is also the audio jewelry aspect of a product like this. By eschewing the "carved out of a monolythic block of unobtainium" mindset and packaging it modestly can result in huge value to cost performance. That is the approach that I took with my products and in this economic landscape is one that makes the most sense to me. I think that Eric is a no BS hype kind of guy and I applaude him for that.
Dave
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Hi George,
Which DAC outperforms the Tranquility? And in what respect?
It sounds like you are making a decision solely based on price. It's a bit like saying if they charged $20k you would believe its better than whatever you have in mind at $10k. From what I read, Danny said there would be some give and take in a direct comparison... that seems pretty reasonable way to convey the performance, not really hyperbole.
How do we price a component? Is it just the cost of parts? or a factor of the time of R&D in design? If you spend about the same for parts, and about the same amount of time designing, and decide to average it out over 1000 units instead of 100, then you can afford to make one 10% the price of the other... so its not that big a reach, to my way of thinking.
Now if a designer has some unique insight, that someone else has overlooked, it seems like that might be able to offer considerable leverage to the performance to price ratio. I don't know whether or not it is true, here, but seems possible.
But it really comes down to how they perform, doesn't it? Seems like a few shootouts are going to be helpful, but unlikely to prove definitive for everyone.
-Tony
Tony,
I never claimed that any DAC outperforms the Tranquility DAC. In fact, I thought I made it clear that I haven't heard the Tranquility DAC.
I DO NOT make decisions solely on price, but let's get real for a second...when does price not play some type of determining factor in everything we purchase? While I am all about value and getting the best performance or functionality for what I am willing to spend, I don't have any illusions that you can't always do better. Unfortunately, many times (not all times) that means having to spend more money. Just to be clear - I don't believe that if something is more expensive it must be better.
I think we can all agree that it costs money to design, research, and build products. While some of the cost of the product goes into aspects that don't improve its performance, (dealer markup, marketing, exotic case work, etc....) some of it does directly go towards defining how it performs. For example, I think it costs more money to design and build a better power supply or to use certain caps, etc...heck we see this in many designs and have no problem accepting that.
While you are correct that a manufacturer can spread R&D costs out over the expected life cycle of the product, most audio vendors aren't selling hundreds of a given item, let alone 1000's, so they don't have that luxury and must recoup their costs with much smaller volumes.
I am not denying that it is possible that the designer of the Tranquility DAC has come up with a great product, maybe even some new innovations. I am just skeptical that it performs as well as being touted. I have heard too many claims how product "x" at a fraction of the price of products "y" and "z" is better, only to be seriously disappointed when finally trying product "x".
Danny, you would need to contact Dan Wright and see if he is willing to send you something for the shootout, can't help you there.
I'll stop now and let things get back to the shootout.
Have fun.
George
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Well, the website may not quite follow Eric's personal style and seems to be a bit too much fluff for some people's taste.
-Tony
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I am just skeptical that it performs as well as being touted.
And there is nothing wrong with that.
I think you might be surprised though.
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1st Eric gets criticised for a lack of information on his website, now his USB/DAC is getting criticised for too much hyperbole from actual owners & Danny's Shootout,,, from what I can see, poor Eric simply can't win here on AC. :lol:
Cheers,
Robin
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I sort of see George's point. I remember when people were yammering on about how great the Ah! Tjoeb player was. I had one for a while and while it didn't suck, it was not the mythical giant killer.
Still, I hope the Tranquility is truly 'all that'. Eric's a great guy, and I hope this is a big success for him.
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I sort of see George's point. I remember when people were yammering on about how great the Ah! Tjoeb player was. I had one for a while and while it didn't suck, it was not the mythical giant killer.
I know what you mean. I bought the MHDT Labs Paradisea NOS DAC when it was the 'flavor of the month' and a 'giant killer', but after living with it for awhile it became apparent that the lack of any digital harshness was at the expense of rolled off highs and reduced resolution.
Steve
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How big of an upgrade are these units over the modified DAC 60?
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As someone who is demoing some of the DAC's mentioned on this thread I appreciate the informed opinions of those who have actually heard some of these units and tried to make some thoughtful comparisons of them and their respective technologies.
Thank you, :thumb:
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Man Would I love to send my DAC. I can't though. :(
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Anyone heard the CI audio VDA-2?
I have been very happy with mine and wonder how it compares. :scratch:
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Anyone heard the CI audio VDA-2?
I have been very happy with mine and wonder how it compares. :scratch:
I'd be interested in hearing opinions on this DAC as well.
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Since the Buffalo board doesn't have USB stock, what was the USB implementation used? Were you using 16/44khz USB as source?
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Since the Buffalo board doesn't have USB stock, what was the USB implementation used? Were you using 16/44khz USB as source?
I just made a phone call to Gary Dodd (who assembled it for a customer) and he said, that the USB came as a separate module (from Twisted Pear) that plugged into the Buffalo board.
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When I looked at Gary's picture of the TPA Buffalo DAC it looked like the TPA USB to I2S Bus interface was installed. That does up to 16bit/48KHz from the PCM2707 with native PC drivers.
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Very interesting! I bet you guys had a great time 8) if I lived closer you could have borrowed my modified Buffalo32s, upgrading regulation vastly improves the sound of this dac IMHO http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64845.msg714750#msg714750
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Danny,
How does the Tranquility DAC Compare to the DAC 60?
Thanks,
David
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Danny,
How does the Tranquility DAC Compare to the DAC 60?
Thanks,
David
I'm not Danny, but I shared the suite at RMAF with Danny and Gary and the differences between the modified DAC 60 and the Tranquility DAC were huge... and I hate using the word "huge" when referring to subjective audio determination. EVERYTHING was better and the sense of space around the instruments in some recordings was tremendous with the Tranquility. On my "Larry Carlton and Robben Ford LIVE IN TOKYO" disc, Travis Carlton's bass was amazing!.
I could go on and on, but I'd start to sound all audiophoolish.
Dave
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From what I've read about the Tranquility DAC it only has USB in. No coax or toslink. Not for me. I need a DAC that would be compatible with a CD player. Am I missing something???
Cheers
Charlie
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From what I've read about the Tranquility DAC it only has USB in. No coax or toslink. Not for me. I need a DAC that would be compatible with a CD player. Am I missing something???
No, dB Labs has previously said that their first release is the Tranquility USB-only DAC, and that they are working on circuit designs to be able to release a future model with S/PDIF inputs.
But that won't happen until they are satisified that the sound through S/PDIF can equal what they are currently achieving with their USB implementation.
Steve
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Dave,
Thanks for your input. I have had the DAC 60 for about 3 years now. I really enjoy it, however if I could find something that was a significant, noticeable improvement, at what I feel is a reasonable price, I would be willing to upgrade.
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Thanks Steve. The way I see as it is right now in my system the DAC has to be hooked up to a PC and the audio cables to a preamp. If so I'd need about 100feet of audio cable. Right???
Cheers
Charlie
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Thanks Steve. The way I see as it is right now in my system the DAC has to be hooked up to a PC and the audio cables to a preamp. If so I'd need about 100feet of audio cable. Right???
Cheers
Charlie
Charles,
Most of us sit a portable or small computer-based music server (many are MAC based) near our 2 channel rig so we don't have to have 100's of feet of cabling, as you say.
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The way I see as it is right now in my system the DAC has to be hooked up to a PC and the audio cables to a preamp. If so I'd need about 100feet of audio cable. Right???
If your PC is about 100 feet from your audio system, then yes! And that is too much length of cable for single ended inputs/outputs, and perhaps stretching it with balanced connections.
Those that have their computers far away from their preamps have usually used wireless devices like Squeezebox, Airport Express or Apple TV which require DACs with coaxial or optical inputs.
Those using USB DACs have computers in close proximity to their audio system, usually fanless or very quiet desktops or laptops.
Steve
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From what I've read about the Tranquility DAC it only has USB in. No coax or toslink. Not for me. I need a DAC that would be compatible with a CD player. Am I missing something???
Charles, the simple answer to your question, "Am I missing something???" is YES.
Doing from my Mac Mini to the Tranquility (or any other top level USB DAC) is a significant improvement over trying to read the info from the spinning CD.
I bought my Mac Mini for less money than I sold my CEC transport for and was not only money ahead, but got better performance to boot. I play more music now too.
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I don't about this Danny. MacMini is a bout $800. DAC is $1495. And that's just a start!!! I think I'll wait a bit on this and see what DB audio has to say later on about coax and toslink.
Cheers
Charlie
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I don't about this Danny. MacMini is a bout $800.
Cheers
Charlie
actually $599 is all I would get.
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Dave,
Thanks for your input. I have had the DAC 60 for about 3 years now. I really enjoy it, however if I could find something that was a significant, noticeable improvement, at what I feel is a reasonable price, I would be willing to upgrade.
Sure, anytime. Since I came into the system with no prior bias it was very easy to hear the differences. The Tranquility just rocked over the DAC 60, at least to me.
Dave
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jtwrace:
Yes $599 on apple but what else do I need?
Cheers
Charlie
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Hey Charles,
Let's look at it this way. A really good DAC like either of the two listed below are about the same price.
http://www.nekoaudio.com/
http://www.dbaudiolabs.com/
One only has optical and coaxial S/PDIF inputs. The other has a USB I2S direct input only.
Either way you go, the computer audio solution has a big leg up on any CD player or transport from a quality perspective and for many reasons.
So regardless of what you decide to do there, you are still buying an external or separate DAC.
The lowest cost solution that I know of, and according to the in the loop guys that I know that have A/B compared various computer based systems (that's right, they do not all sound alike), the Mac Mini was a favorite.
I bought mine used on E-bay with a wireless keyboard and mouse for $425 (200 gig hard drive too!). I can't even get a good mid-fi level transport for that.
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I followed the same path....went to eBay for a used Mini and DiyAudio for a used dac. I was lucky enough (thanks TomS for the tip) to score a Buffalo Sabre with Empirical USB input, built by Larry Moore. All in for a total of $1200 and I'd put this combo up against just about anything. If you want to go budget you can't go wrong with any of the Twisted Pear dacs which show up used over at DiyAudio on a somewhat regular basis...trick is USB conversion.
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Danny,
Any update on the next round or did the snow get in the way :green:?
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The snow has REALLY gotten in the way. Another hold up has been the finagling taking place to get an Arye DAC here for a reference comparison. It finally looks like we will have one in about a week.
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this question; I posed it on the thread about the EE DAC, but no response. This is purely for my selfish education--why is it that many of the new DACs are limited to 48kHz when using the USB input?
I have most of my library upsampled to 24/96, which I like, and am interested in a USB input DAC....
I've ordered one of the new Buffalo II DAC chips (although I'm not competent enough to put it together--will likely pay someone to do it), and I'm wondering if I get a USB module for it, will I be limited to 48kHz or this there a work around?
Thanks!
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DBLabs will be introducing a 24 bit/96khz DAC soon with USB input much like the TRANQUILITY model, only of course, better. Price I'm told will put it about $600.00 more than the 16 bit model but I'm sure it will be a delight and still thousands less than a WEISS.
Cheers
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--why is it that many of the new DACs are limited to 48kHz when using the USB input?
I've ordered one of the new Buffalo II DAC chips (although I'm not competent enough to put it together--will likely pay someone to do it), and I'm wondering if I get a USB module for it, will I be limited to 48kHz or this there a work around?
The majority of current USB receiver chips are limited to 16bit/48KHz and are easy to implement. There are a few chips that can accept 24bit/96KHz, but they are less well known and the implementation is more difficult. Newer generation USB chips are on the way and will eventually replace the 16/48 chips.
There are a few 24/96 USB to S/PDIF interfaces on the market, among them the bel canto USB Link 24/96 and the Stello U2.
Steve
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Thanks Steve. I'm considering a HiFace, but I guess in my non-technical mind it would seem that an additional conversion from USB output of the computer to S/PDIF wouldn't necessarily be a good thing.
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Believe forthcoming Wyred4Sound DAC will have 24/192 USB as an option.
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this question; I posed it on the thread about the EE DAC, but no response. This is purely for my selfish education--why is it that many of the new DACs are limited to 48kHz when using the USB input?
I have most of my library upsampled to 24/96, which I like, and am interested in a USB input DAC....
I've ordered one of the new Buffalo II DAC chips (although I'm not competent enough to put it together--will likely pay someone to do it), and I'm wondering if I get a USB module for it, will I be limited to 48kHz or this there a work around?
Thanks!
The TPA Audio USB interface is limited to 16bit/48KHz max rate. It uses one of the standard TI USB DAC's and outputs I2S Bus information to the Buffalo board.
I have a M2Tech HiFace and it sounds great driving an S/PDIF input DAC.
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Believe forthcoming Wyred4Sound DAC will have 24/192 USB as an option.
I would hope so! If you can get an $80 Musiland dac that can do 24/192 over USB, there is no excuse for a new model mid to high priced DAC to be lagging.
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Believe forthcoming Wyred4Sound DAC will have 24/192 USB as an option.
The HiFace, the Wavelength DACs, and most likely, the Wyred4Sound, use proprietary drivers to enable their 24/192 USB capability. This may or may not be a problem, depending on your platform and choice of media player.
For example, on a PC, the HiFace doesn't support iTunes, as it must be run in system exclusive mode with either an ASIO or WASAPI driver, which iTunes does not support, but foobar and Media Monkey do.
Steve
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24/192 definitely needs a driver at this point, and that can be an issue for non windows users depending on support from the manufacturer, but as far as I know, all 24.192 capable DACS will also work at 16/48 with standard USB 1 drivers.
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The ease of using a computer source has me very interested in your thread.
Has anyone tried out the HRT Music Streamer+ selling at $199.00 ?
Art Dudley gave it a positive review but has anyone heard it?
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Over on TAS there is a guide/ review of new CD Players & DACs. Pretty interesting. There is a new line HRT version 2 and they all have asynchronous USB.
M
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Has the snow melted?
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Yep, and we are going for the next round next Saturday. And we got ahold of an Arye DAC for a reference.
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May be just a tad too late for this round of the shootout, but Wyred4Sound finally released details on their new DACs and their release dates. One of them has 24/192 async USB! Both are based on the Sabre Chip. Details from their newsletter:
The time has finally come..... It's been a long journey for the DAC, but we now have another product ready to immediately impress. Many thanks to all who have been extremely patient during the development of the DAC and to all our customers out there supporting our passion! I can assure you; these products were worth the wait!
Two versions will be offered. We will have one for those looking for a DAC to focus mainly on SPDIF sources and to operate as a stand-along unit. This will be the DAC-1. We will also offer the DAC-2; it will offer more inputs including the overdue 24 bit / 92kHz Asynchronous USB interface, volume control, remote control and HT bypass. We are currently processing photos, and specs on the DACs, so please be patient, they're coming very soon.
DAC-1 product information
The DAC-1 will be offered with the following features:
* ESS 9018 Sabre32 Reference DAC (32-bit dac)
* W4S proprietary discrete output stages for optimum sonics
* ESS Time Domain Jitter Eliminator®
* Upgradable Digital, output, and USB boards (designed for future improvements)
* Automatic 500kHz oversampling for precise output filtering
* Fully balanced design with balanced and unbalanced outputs
* Oversized toroidal transformer
* Robust 35A bridge rectified power-supply with 88,000uF of filtering.
* LCD display for input and sample rate viewing
* 2x Coax inputs
* 2x Toslink inputs
* 16/48 USB input (future upgrade to 24/96 USB)
* Retail = $999 (starts shipping 4/09/2010)
DAC-2 product information
The DAC-2 will be offered with the following features:
* ESS 9018 Sabre32 Reference DAC (32-bit dac)
* W4S proprietary discrete output stages for optimum sonics
* ESS Time Domain Jitter Eliminator®
* Upgradable Digital, output, and USB boards (designed for future improvements)
* Automatic 500kHz oversampling for precise output filtering
* Fully balanced design with balanced and unbalanced outputs
* Oversized toroidal transformer
* Robust 35A Schottky bridge rectifier (also used in the STP-SE)
* 88,000uf of filtering with W4S low ESR "super-cap" (also used in the STP-SE)
* VFD display for input, sample rate, and volume control viewing
* Remote control
* Defeatable - 32 bit volume control via remote
* HT Bypass inputs (selectable via DC trigger)
* 2x Coax inputs
* 2x Toslink inputs
* 1x AES/EBU input
* 1x Balanced I2S input via HDMI cable (not standard HDMI cable format)
* 24/192 Asynchronous USB input.
* Retail = $1499 (estimated shipping 4/23/2010)
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If they can get us one by next Saturday the 10th then we can add it to the mix.
We have the latest PS Audio player/DAC now as well. :D
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Where's this going to be Danny?
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RC, where else? ;) :D
Where's this going to be Danny?
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Where's this going to be Danny?
My place. Wanna to come?
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My place. Wanna to come?
Yeah, I need to get back out your way so count me in!
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I will have a DAC19MKIII from Audio_gd in a few days. Do you guys need more DACs?
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May be just a tad too late for this round of the shootout, but Wyred4Sound finally released details on their new DACs and their release dates. One of them has 24/192 async USB! Both are based on the Sabre Chip. Details from their newsletter:
The time has finally come..... It's been a long journey for the DAC, but we now have another product ready to immediately impress. Many thanks to all who have been extremely patient during the development of the DAC and to all our customers out there supporting our passion! I can assure you; these products were worth the wait!
Two versions will be offered. We will have one for those looking for a DAC to focus mainly on SPDIF sources and to operate as a stand-along unit. This will be the DAC-1. We will also offer the DAC-2; it will offer more inputs including the overdue 24 bit / 92kHz Asynchronous USB interface, volume control, remote control and HT bypass. We are currently processing photos, and specs on the DACs, so please be patient, they're coming very soon.
DAC-1 product information
The DAC-1 will be offered with the following features:
* ESS 9018 Sabre32 Reference DAC (32-bit dac)
* W4S proprietary discrete output stages for optimum sonics
* ESS Time Domain Jitter Eliminator®
* Upgradable Digital, output, and USB boards (designed for future improvements)
* Automatic 500kHz oversampling for precise output filtering
* Fully balanced design with balanced and unbalanced outputs
* Oversized toroidal transformer
* Robust 35A bridge rectified power-supply with 88,000uF of filtering.
* LCD display for input and sample rate viewing
* 2x Coax inputs
* 2x Toslink inputs
* 16/48 USB input (future upgrade to 24/96 USB)
* Retail = $999 (starts shipping 4/09/2010)
DAC-2 product information
The DAC-2 will be offered with the following features:
* ESS 9018 Sabre32 Reference DAC (32-bit dac)
* W4S proprietary discrete output stages for optimum sonics
* ESS Time Domain Jitter Eliminator®
* Upgradable Digital, output, and USB boards (designed for future improvements)
* Automatic 500kHz oversampling for precise output filtering
* Fully balanced design with balanced and unbalanced outputs
* Oversized toroidal transformer
* Robust 35A Schottky bridge rectifier (also used in the STP-SE)
* 88,000uf of filtering with W4S low ESR "super-cap" (also used in the STP-SE)
* VFD display for input, sample rate, and volume control viewing
* Remote control
* Defeatable - 32 bit volume control via remote
* HT Bypass inputs (selectable via DC trigger)
* 2x Coax inputs
* 2x Toslink inputs
* 1x AES/EBU input
* 1x Balanced I2S input via HDMI cable (not standard HDMI cable format)
* 24/192 Asynchronous USB input.
* Retail = $1499 (estimated shipping 4/23/2010)
I know that Rick Cullen, at Cullen Circuits, has worked hard and long especially on the output stage of this product. It could very well be the best Sabre based implementation yet !
As for the PS Audio combo, I've used their DAC extensively. On it's own, ie w.o. the matching transport, this DAC (PWD) is totally unremarkable when using USB and SPDIF inputs. Early adopters have held out for the Bridge I2S, that after a year of extended promises, is yet to delivered. Many have hyped the PWD sound quality especially as used in lieu of a preamp. I found this to be the furthest thing from the truth. Bottom line, the PWD digital volume control, at any attenuation, sounds thin when fronting SS or tube. A good quality pre IMHO sounds better with or without this DAC. Again, I'm qualifying this finding. The above comments pertain only to the PWD performance w.o. I2S inputs. I have listened to the PWT/PWD I2S combo finding it to be average, but less musical than the similarly RAM buffered DAC application found in the recently available Naim DAC. IMHO, the NOS implementation found w. the dB Audio Tranquility, trumps anything I've heard including McIntosh's Sabre implementation. Just one guy's take, and no, I don't own any of the above !
So for you DAC judges there at Danny's, CLOSE YOUR EYES, AND think ANALOG. Then get back with us !
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My place. Wanna to come?
I do, but can't... darn. I'd love to be there to hear with 62 year old ears what is going on with SOTA DACs.
I'm finally, finally, finally getting the kitchen done. I've been working on a 10'8" long mesquite countertop for the last few days. I went to the moon and beyond today on some petroleum distillates. Fried a few billion brain cells. All in all a good week.
All of this means that next week is crunch time AND the 7th is Gayle's birthday. I'll be building BUSSes, working on the kitchen and working on SuperV's. You guys just think about how much I wish I could be there. See you at LSAF.
Dave
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Yeah man, plus you have all those diffusers to cut for LSAF. Those things work so well it's just amazing.
You need to start showing those things in the LSAF circle over there and make some special pricing deals on it for folks that want to buy it at the show. I bet you can go back home with a lot less of it if you did.
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Yeah man, plus you have all those diffusers to cut for LSAF. Those things work so well it's just amazing.
You need to start showing those things in the LSAF circle over there and make some special pricing deals on it for folks that want to buy it at the show. I bet you can go back home with a lot less of it if you did.
Yeah, Danny, I know. If I (we) can ever get all of the manufacturing/painting/shipping kinks worked out I'll do so. The reason that I haven't updated my website info on them is I'm wondering if it will ever come together in more than a very limited availability. What a PITA. :roll:
Anyway, have a great time. I look forward to a great review of the contenders.
Dave
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Yeah man, plus you have all those diffusers to cut for LSAF. Those things work so well it's just amazing.
You need to start showing those things in the LSAF circle over there and make some special pricing deals on it for folks that want to buy it at the show. I bet you can go back home with a lot less of it if you did.
I am certainly interested in taking one back to Abilene.
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Oh man, I would love to hear the shootout! I thought it was this weekend.
We are in Cleveland now and just got back from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Got to see the U2 3D concert video in their THX 3D theater! WOW! That was an experience! It had a very good sound system and it was well setup! :D
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Oh man, I would love to hear the shootout! I thought it was this weekend.
We are in Cleveland now and just got back from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Got to see the U2 3D concert video in their THX 3D theater! WOW! That was an experience! It had a very good sound system and it was well setup! :D
You were in my town! Shoulda come by! :thumb:
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Oh man, I would love to hear the shootout! I thought it was this weekend.
We are in Cleveland now and just got back from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Got to see the U2 3D concert video in their THX 3D theater! WOW! That was an experience! It had a very good sound system and it was well setup! :D
Rich, we can just email back and forth and cry in our beer about not being there :(
Dave
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Dave,
Sounds like a plan to me.
Will be standing by with a good beer and conversation! :)
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ted_b,
If I only had known! :duh:
Probably not the last trip to Cleveland. Had alot of fun at the RRHOF! Will keep you posted.
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Yep, and we are going for the next round next Saturday. And we got ahold of an Arye DAC for a reference.
Waiting for the results :thumb: :thumb:
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We just finished. It was a long day and we have a TON of information from this that even goes way beyond what you can imagine. You guys may be floored by the results. Stand by. This is going to take a while to compile, and some of the guys that just left have a long drive home.
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Awesome, can't wait to read about it!
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We just finished. It was a long day and we have a TON of information from this that even goes way beyond what you can imagine. You guys may be floored by the results. Stand by. This is going to take a while to compile, and some of the guys that just left have a long drive home.
So.... floor me, man. My head is gonna explode!!! :bomb:
:thumb:
Dave
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Danny,was there time before the shootout to break-in all of the DACs before you listened to them? If there wasn't enough break-in time your results could have been altered in unexpected ways. I know I have heard some DACs go south somewhere in the middle of the process only to completely change for the better after yet another two weeks of continued break-in. I ask because I know you were trying get everything together within a limited time frame.
Scotty
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Danny, thanks for letting me be a part of the DAC Shootout, it was a blast. I have a full day the next few days so it will be a few before I can report my opinions on the DAC's we heard. But folks as Danny has already mentioned the results were much different than I would have expected.
Keep in mind that I come from the camp of wires don't make that much difference, electronics don't make that much difference, power conditioning does almost nothing...........I was wrong on each count. I heard a usb cable that I'm going to buy, the difference in the DAC's was amazing and the straw that broke the camels back was the Dodd balanced power supply and the Ubber Buss. I think we all learned that high prices does not guarantee great results.......more later.
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Danny, thanks for letting me be a part of the DAC Shootout, it was a blast. I have a full day the next few days so it will be a few before I can report my opinions on the DAC's we heard. But folks as Danny has already mentioned the results were much different than I would have expected.
Keep in mind that I come from the camp of wires don't make that much difference, electronics don't make that much difference, power conditioning does almost nothing...........I was wrong on each count. I heard a usb cable that I'm going to buy, the difference in the DAC's was amazing and the straw that broke the camels back was the Dodd balanced power supply and the Ubber Buss. I think we all learned that high prices does not guarantee great results.......more later.
Welcome to the dark side my friend. Expect everything you're going to say you've heard to be defuted and ridiculed,,,, but don't worry, you'll get use to it like the rest of us who trust our ears and believe what we hear. :notworthy: :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
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Now this sounds interesting! :D
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(I don't wish to hijack this thread ...so I'll only ask this one question, as it seems currently 'on topic')
Satfrat, how much & what kind of difference did you notice in the sound of your DAC(s)
after going to a highend fuse (ex. IsoClean, Furutech, HiFi-Tuning, etc...) please?
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(I don't wish to hijack this thread ...so I'll only ask this one question, as it seems currently 'on topic')
Satfrat, how much & what kind of difference did you notice in the sound of your DAC(s)
after going to a highend fuse (ex. IsoClean, Furutech, HiFi-Tuning, etc...) please?
PM sent.
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Hey DACers,
maybe a lil nibble or sneak peek of findings??? We're mighty curious out here... :drool:
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Hello all. I was a participant in the 10 April 2010 USB DAC Shoot-out. Here are my thoughts on each DAC with a ranking of each at the end of the review. The DACs were, in alphabetical order, the Ayre, dB Labs, Onix, PS Audio, and an inexpensive USB DAC whose name I cannot recall. Please note that I was not completely familiar with the cost of the various DACs until after the Shoot-Out was completed.
As background, my personal tastes lean to Vinyl (and Reel to Reel player at work!), and I use a Lite-on DAC 60 with GR-Research Step 1 mods, GR-Research O-3 speakers (and occasionally my Soliloquy 8.1 speakers), and a PC with Xonar HDAV sound card as the SPDIF digital stream output, Dodd Audio pre-amp and either my Belles Hot Rod amp or Chiro C-200 amp.
Danny can provide better specifics, but with the exception of the PS Audio, all DACs were tested using a Mac Mini outputting a digital stream and connected to each DAC with a USB cable. The same power cord and cable was used throughout. However, the PS Audio was tested as a DAC/Transport combo connected with an HDMI cable. The PS Audio DAC was also tested separately using its USB digital interface to provide a more fair comparison to the other DACs.
Ayre: The Ayre had a good top to bottom balance with "the best of the bunch" harmonic undertones. It was very musical with a tendency toward a "laid-back" sound. It had a rather nice balance to its sound reproduction. The female vocal, as provided by Diane Warren was, to me, a bit too forward in the aural presentation. Some upper midrange sounds had a small touch of forwardness and were very slightly "digital" sounding. Instruments were presented a bit more crowded together than the dB Labs. It had a slightly veiled sound which would not have been noticeable if the other DACs had not been present as a comparison. Overall, I found it to be an enjoyable and easy to listen to DAC.
dB Labs: The dB Labs DAC had very crystalline highs, perhaps the best that I have ever heard from 16 bit music. The sustain of the instruments was very good. The sound was clean with a nice wide soundstage. The DAC had a very open sound that was slightly "laid back" and the bass region was nice and taut. Overall the sound had a nice analog character. In the most distinctive difference of all the DACs, using the music of artist Jack Johnson, the DAC excelled in reproduction of the natural-ness of the male vocal. The soundstage depth was slightly shallow compared to the PS Audio DAC/Transport solution using its HDMI connector to connect both the Transport and the DAC.
Onix: The Onix was a better than average DAC, with a slightly strained sound and presented itself as a little fuzzy or veiled sounding. It was smooth except in the upper mid-range which I found to be a bit too aggressive for my tastes. The soundstage was flatter than the Ayre, dB Labs, and PS Audio and I thought that it was a very good value as long as you had speakers that provided a more "dark" presentation. It was definitely worth looking into as a very good value for its price point. Personally, it is not a DAC that I would purchase, but given the right system it might be fine for others.
PS Audio: The PS Audio was tested two ways, one as the company preferred Transport/DAC combination and one using the USB input of the DAC driven by the Mac Mini setup. Firstly, the DAC/Transport combination with HDMI connection had the deepest soundstage of the DACs. It also had a relatively narrow soundstage in that setup which was localized between the two speakers and, oddly enough, did not make the speakers "disappear" in the room. The bass was slightly tubby and bloated, but was not un-enjoyable and I am certain the younger audiophiles used to the bottom heavy songs of today would enjoy its low end presentation more than the other DACs presentation of similar material. The second test of the PS Audio, using only the DAC with the USB instead of HDMI input, presented itself quite differently. The soundstage was less deep, but it became significantly wider with instruments being spaced further apart and less "stuck together." The bass became a bit more loose than it had been and female vocals became less forward sounding. The mid to lower mid-range sounded very good indeed. I preferred the sound of the Ayre and dB Labs highs as compared to the PS Audio in either of its configurations. I definitely preferred the sound of the DAC by itself and not conjoined with the PS Audio transport. I would definitely be interested in hearing the PS Audio DAC being driven by an ASUS Xonar HDAV 1.3 Slim PC Audio card (I do not use Mac computers - "I'm a PC"). The Xonar Slim has HDMI output capabilities and I wonder if there is any difference between the PC sound card and the PS Audio Transport.
USB DAC: I personally did not care for this DAC. I found it to be too aggressive and "digital" sounding for my tastes. If used with computer system speakers and at a rather low volume for recreational listening perhaps it could be useful, but I found the sound too irritating for my ears. I believe that I am the only one who had this opinion of the DAC, so take that as a lone voice in the wilderness.
Conclusions: As ranked in an order of personal preference, I would rank the DACs in the following order: dB Labs, Ayre, PS Audio, Onix, and the USB DAC. I felt that the dB Labs and Ayre were rather close in sound with the edge going to the dB Labs and both were better than the PS Audio by a small but noticeable amount and that the Onix was above the average in its price class (though not in the same class as the first three units) with the USB DAC trailing a good ways behind the others. I found the PS Audio setup to sound better in a Mac Mini computer-fed USB interface configuration rather than the DAC/Transport combination recommended by PS Audio.
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Texasphile, nice write up on the DAC's. I will get my finding posted in a few days, very busy next couple of days.
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I would definitely be interested in hearing the PS Audio DAC being driven by an ASUS Xonar HDAV 1.3 Slim PC Audio card (I do not use Mac computers - "I'm a PC"). The Xonar Slim has HDMI output capabilities and I wonder if there is any difference between the PC sound card and the PS Audio Transport.
Unfortunately, sound cards and DVD players with HDMI output will NOT be able to drive the PS Audio DAC HDMI input, since PS audio's HDMI implementation has nothing to do with the HDMI standard, just using the HDMI connectors with different pinouts for I2S use (a bad decision IMHO).
It suprises me that you found the PS transport/I2S not as good as USB input and wonder if the myriad of upsampling and other settings were optimized the the PWT/PWD combo. It would have been interesting to try a different transport, say a Lynx card with AES digital output, to the PWD. Thanks for your impressions..
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For DIY types, Paul from PS Audio has posted the schematic for their HDMI I2S standard over at diyaudio. Wyred4Sound, which also uses that I2S over HDMI (not sure if it is the same standard as PS Audio, but likely so) will also be offering a service to mod other players for an I2S HDMI output.
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roscoeiii,
Do you have a link to the info at PS Audio on the HDMI I2S Bus interface?
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Here's the thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/164366-i2s-standards-ps-audio.html
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Thanks! :)
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roscoeiii,
Do you have a link to the info at PS Audio on the HDMI I2S Bus interface?
Rich, here you go:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/164366-i2s-standards-ps-audio.html
Dave
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Dave,
Thanks! :D
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Dave,
Thanks! :D
Hey, better late than never!
Dave
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For those without DIYAudio account:
(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/7253/i2shdmi.th.png) (http://img580.imageshack.us/i/i2shdmi.png/)
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Hello all. I was a participant in the 10 April 2010 USB DAC Shoot-out. Here are my thoughts on each DAC with a ranking of each at the end of the review. The DACs were, in alphabetical order, the Ayre, dB Labs, Onix, PS Audio, and an inexpensive USB DAC whose name I cannot recall. Please note that I was not completely familiar with the cost of the various DACs until after the Shoot-Out was completed.
As background, my personal tastes lean to Vinyl (and Reel to Reel player at work!), and I use a Lite-on DAC 60 with GR-Research Step 1 mods, GR-Research O-3 speakers (and occasionally my Soliloquy 8.1 speakers), and a PC with Xonar HDAV sound card as the SPDIF digital stream output, Dodd Audio pre-amp and either my Belles Hot Rod amp or Chiro C-200 amp.
Danny can provide better specifics, but with the exception of the PS Audio, all DACs were tested using a Mac Mini outputting a digital stream and connected to each DAC with a USB cable. The same power cord and cable was used throughout. However, the PS Audio was tested as a DAC/Transport combo connected with an HDMI cable. The PS Audio DAC was also tested separately using its USB digital interface to provide a more fair comparison to the other DACs.
Ayre: The Ayre had a good top to bottom balance with "the best of the bunch" harmonic undertones. It was very musical with a tendency toward a "laid-back" sound. It had a rather nice balance to its sound reproduction. The female vocal, as provided by Diane Warren was, to me, a bit too forward in the aural presentation. Some upper midrange sounds had a small touch of forwardness and were very slightly "digital" sounding. Instruments were presented a bit more crowded together than the dB Labs. It had a slightly veiled sound which would not have been noticeable if the other DACs had not been present as a comparison. Overall, I found it to be an enjoyable and easy to listen to DAC.
dB Labs: The dB Labs DAC had very crystalline highs, perhaps the best that I have ever heard from 16 bit music. The sustain of the instruments was very good. The sound was clean with a nice wide soundstage. The DAC had a very open sound that was slightly "laid back" and the bass region was nice and taut. Overall the sound had a nice analog character. In the most distinctive difference of all the DACs, using the music of artist Jack Johnson, the DAC excelled in reproduction of the natural-ness of the male vocal. The soundstage depth was slightly shallow compared to the PS Audio DAC/Transport solution using its HDMI connector to connect both the Transport and the DAC.
Onix: The Onix was a better than average DAC, with a slightly strained sound and presented itself as a little fuzzy or veiled sounding. It was smooth except in the upper mid-range which I found to be a bit too aggressive for my tastes. The soundstage was flatter than the Ayre, dB Labs, and PS Audio and I thought that it was a very good value as long as you had speakers that provided a more "dark" presentation. It was definitely worth looking into as a very good value for its price point. Personally, it is not a DAC that I would purchase, but given the right system it might be fine for others.
PS Audio: The PS Audio was tested two ways, one as the company preferred Transport/DAC combination and one using the USB input of the DAC driven by the Mac Mini setup. Firstly, the DAC/Transport combination with HDMI connection had the deepest soundstage of the DACs. It also had a relatively narrow soundstage in that setup which was localized between the two speakers and, oddly enough, did not make the speakers "disappear" in the room. The bass was slightly tubby and bloated, but was not un-enjoyable and I am certain the younger audiophiles used to the bottom heavy songs of today would enjoy its low end presentation more than the other DACs presentation of similar material. The second test of the PS Audio, using only the DAC with the USB instead of HDMI input, presented itself quite differently. The soundstage was less deep, but it became significantly wider with instruments being spaced further apart and less "stuck together." The bass became a bit more loose than it had been and female vocals became less forward sounding. The mid to lower mid-range sounded very good indeed. I preferred the sound of the Ayre and dB Labs highs as compared to the PS Audio in either of its configurations. I definitely preferred the sound of the DAC by itself and not conjoined with the PS Audio transport. I would definitely be interested in hearing the PS Audio DAC being driven by an ASUS Xonar HDAV 1.3 Slim PC Audio card (I do not use Mac computers - "I'm a PC"). The Xonar Slim has HDMI output capabilities and I wonder if there is any difference between the PC sound card and the PS Audio Transport.
USB DAC: I personally did not care for this DAC. I found it to be too aggressive and "digital" sounding for my tastes. If used with computer system speakers and at a rather low volume for recreational listening perhaps it could be useful, but I found the sound too irritating for my ears. I believe that I am the only one who had this opinion of the DAC, so take that as a lone voice in the wilderness.
Conclusions: As ranked in an order of personal preference, I would rank the DACs in the following order: dB Labs, Ayre, PS Audio, Onix, and the USB DAC. I felt that the dB Labs and Ayre were rather close in sound with the edge going to the dB Labs and both were better than the PS Audio by a small but noticeable amount and that the Onix was above the average in its price class (though not in the same class as the first three units) with the USB DAC trailing a good ways behind the others. I found the PS Audio setup to sound better in a Mac Mini computer-fed USB interface configuration rather than the DAC/Transport combination recommended by PS Audio.
Did you get a chance to try hi-resolution 24/96 files on the ayre??
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Okay, before getting into the details of the comparisons, I really need to go over all the updates and upgrades to the computer, other system gear, and listening methods.
First of all, most of the experts in the industry have already figured out that the Mac Mini has been providing the best over all performance from A/B listening test as a source. Even comparing it to Mac laptops, etc, it still comes out on top. There are several reasons for its rise to the top but I don't see need to go into those now.
Upgrades made to the Mac Mini were also made that brought it up several levels in performance and I must be up front about what was done. I wouldn't want anyone to think that they will get the same results that we got if using a lessor quality computer.
The Mac Mini that we used had a solid state hard drive. That takes it up a level. It also had all of the music stored on an external hard drive. That takes it up another level. Then it has all other operating systems running in the back ground completely shut down. This makes a surprising difference and again takes things up another level. This particular Mac also has been upgraded to 4 megs of ram. Also, an adapter is used to convert the input plug on the power supply to an IEC so an upgraded power cable can be used. We were using an Electra Cable B-7 PC that was further enhanced by plugging it to an Uber Buss. When all of this is added up the result is really extensive.
Next is the USB cable. I have tried a lot of them including some in the $450 to $600 range. The db Audio Labs cable is the best I have used and very neutral sounding. It was used with all DAC's.
All DAC's were well burned in with the least amount on time being on the db Audio Labs Tranquility DAC. It was a stock unit with the standard Mundorf caps.
Prior to the comparison, extensive listening was done with various power cables and conditioning. I run my personal DAC with an Electra Cable power cable into my Dodd Audio balanced power supply that is plugged into an Uber Buss. This really drops the noise floor and improves the sound from top to bottom. Clearly all the DAC's came up a lot in performance when plugged in with this top level conditioning system. But we decided that the best and most fair thing to do for the comparisons was to plug each DAC into the wall using a low cost and commonly available power cable. We had two identical PS Audio power cables (two were needed for the PS Audio DAC and transport) that we used. They were the AC-10 model.
See here: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/perfectwave-ac-10-power-cable?cat=cables-accessories
The rest of the system was an off the grid Dodd Audio buffer driving the big Dodd Audio, mono block, tube amps. Speakers were Super-V's totally decked out. The listening room was also fairly well optimized and treated as needed. The system easily revealed in detail each subtle difference between any change of any kind.
(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/DAC's.jpg)
In listening tests we used various tracks and often swapped places taking turns from various listening positions so that everyone got a good feel for imaging and sound stage cues.
We later also made some comparisons using the Dodd Audio balanced power supply and Uber Buss to see what effects that had on various DAC's and how much benefit it gave to each one.
We covered the spectrum in price ranges with the following DAC's:
HRT Music Streamer II at $149: http://www.musicdirect.com/product/87045
The Onix DAC provided by Skiing Ninja at $629: http://www.skiingninja.com/DAC25-Upsampling-DAC-p/onixdac25.htm
db Audio Labs at $1,495 ($1,295 for AC members right now): http://www.dbaudiolabs.com/
The Ayre DAC at $2,500: http://www.ayre.com/products_detail.cfm?productid=18
And the PS Audio transport and DAC at $6,000 for the pair: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/list/audio/
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Also, before I get into the comparisons I want to mention that we also had a Neko DAC here as well, but we lost it.
Neko DAC: http://www.nekoaudio.com/
Originally one was sent with only balanced outputs and some very inexpensive XLR to RCA cables that really held it back. It was including in some initial listening comparisons made earlier this year but the cables really weren't helping it and I really felt it was better than it was sounding through those cables.
Cables: http://www.nekoaudio.com/#accessories
So it was returned and another was sent with RCA outputs. Being able to use my higher quality RCA cables from Electra Cable brought it up quite a bit.
Unfortunately the company owner had us send it to a reviewer a week before this get together so it was not included in the mix. The company owner may have reached the limit of his patience as it took us a while to get this comparison going as it was not easy to finally score one of the Ayre DAC's.
Having spent some time with the Neko DAC listening to it just before sending it off, I would have to say that it would have faired really well. I would have put it ahead of the Ayre DAC and the PS Audio transport/DAC combo for sure. I did compare it to my modded (cap change) Tranquility DAC and was very impressed with it. I thought it gave a few things up to the Tranquility but not by leaps and bounds. It held its own quite well, and I would easily still recommend it for audition to anyone interested in it.
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Unfortunately, sound cards and DVD players with HDMI output will NOT be able to drive the PS Audio DAC HDMI input, since PS audio's HDMI implementation has nothing to do with the HDMI standard, just using the HDMI connectors with different pinouts for I2S use (a bad decision IMHO).
It suprises me that you found the PS transport/I2S not as good as USB input and wonder if the myriad of upsampling and other settings were optimized the the PWT/PWD combo. It would have been interesting to try a different transport, say a Lynx card with AES digital output, to the PWD. Thanks for your impressions..
I agree with Jon. It would be nice to know what settings were use on the PWD and what HDMI cable was used
to connect the PWT/PWD.
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Danny, What generation/processor speed is your mac mini, also what OS software and playback software are you using? Im interested in setting up something like this as well. I do find it curious as to how an external hard drive would benefit with a solid state drive installed in the mini....was the external hard drive also solid state?
interested in the results of the shootout!
hopefully this will not "derail" this thread.
Thanks,
Shane.
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First of all, most of the experts in the industry have already figured out that the Mac Mini has...
Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading any further. (I guess we rely on different "experts").
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8459/dogpoop.jpg)
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I agree with Jon. It would be nice to know what settings were use on the PWD and what HDMI cable was used to connect the PWT/PWD.
I want to say that optimal settings were made by the owner of the DAC.
We used the PS Audio HDMI cable: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/perfectwave-i2s?cat=cables-accessories
What generation/processor speed is your mac mini, also what OS software and playback software are you using?
It was a 2gHz processor and we were using the latest Snow Leopard OS.
I do find it curious as to how an external hard drive would benefit with a solid state drive installed in the mini....was the external hard drive also solid state?
Going to an external drive gets it away from the noise of the processor. It clearly made a difference.
I am still typing up results.
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Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading any further. (I guess we rely on different "experts").
Hello Lowtech.
Another fine contribution I see.
Feel free to A/B them for yourself and let us know what you find.
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Hello Lowtech.
Another fine contribution I see.
Feel free to A/B them for yourself and let us know what you find.
Been there, done that... 4 or so years ago.
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Going to an external drive gets it away from the noise of the processor. It clearly made a difference.
Ah, I see....Is your external drive solid state as well?
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Ah, I see....Is your external drive solid state as well?
Nope, the external drive is not solid state. However, comparing the internal solid state drive to the external drive, the performance edge clearly goes to the external drive.
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Nope, the external drive is not solid state. However, comparing the internal solid state drive to the external drive, the performance edge clearly goes to the external drive.
cool, thanks.
Did not mean to take the thread off topic. lowtech...what gives? Did Danny steal your girlfriend or run over your dog? As an unbiased observer you seem to posess a bit of contempt towards him or his circle.
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Listening test involved playing a given track or segment of it then switching DAC's and repeating the same thing. We often went back and forth several times using the same track until the differences became real apparent. Often the differences were very apparent real quick. Sometimes we wrote down simple observations and sometimes we wrote down comparative differences.
Observations made were in close agreement by everyone, but preferences like everything, did vary a little as not everyone's taste are the same. Chris for instance prefers a softer more laid back sound. Anything harsh, bright, or in your face is out for Chris. I favor a non-harsh, non-fatiguing sound (think analog) too, but can't give up top end resolution for it. I also am really bugged by any high noise floors. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes.
I also have Gary Dodd's listening impressions and will be including them here as well. I will make note of the comments that were Gary's.
First comparison was Ayre QB-9 verses the bd Audio Labs Tranquility. Notes taken may not be in reference to the DAC specifically but in comparison to the other DAC.
db Audio Labs:
More sound stage layering. Smoothest vocals. Piano sounded very real. Very analog sounding. In Hotel California (Hell Freezes over album) the guitar had more coherency and body. The coherency of the guitar in Jack Johnson's "Better Together" was much better and it made the Ayre sound fragmented.
Gary> Very clean, crisp, open airy. great resolution. Excellent staging and depth. Very easy to tell where things are in the stage. Nice space between everything. Female vocal - very smooth and natural. Very real presentation. Very solid bottom end without mudding up the mids. Much tighter bottom end and better control. MORE MUSICAL.
Ayre QB-9:
Really good vocals using Vienna Teng "Say Uncle". The intro was close, but the piano on the Ayre lost a little air. In the beginning of "The Panther" by Jennifer Warnes, the highs in the right channel were more attached to the speaker. Not quite the layering of the Tranquility. Guitar lacked coherency as if part of the body was missing or it was separated from the sound of the strings themselves.
Gary> Slightly forward. Resolution good. Clean. Less body in the vocal but good. Mids recessed a little. On Hotel California the bottom end was strong but muddied up the mid-range a bit.
Next up was the PS Audio combo verses the Onix DAC.
PS Audio:
Tonality sounds good but still sounds digital. Nice vocal. Great resolution at the expense of smoothness. No image width. Slightly one note bass, not as tight, or a little bloat. Must have patience with function controls and CD loading (side note).
Gary> Huge deep sound stage, but all sound is between the speakers. Very clean and detailed. Very good mid-range. Bass is a little bloated sounding. Hard to get used to.
Onix:
Slightly more analog sounding, More body in the guitar of Jack Johnson. Smoother sounding. Sound stage on Hotel California was wide and separated from the speakers. Not as focused or as deep but bigger.
Gary> Nice Male vocals. Wider sound stage than PS Audio. More electronic sounding. Easy to listen to. A little laid back and soft.
My personal preference between the two was for the Onix.
Okay, there's two rounds. More to come.....
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lowtech...what gives? Did Danny steal your girlfriend or run over your dog? As an unbiased observer you seem to hold a bit of contempt towards him or his circle.
He thinks my V-1 and Super-V are a knock off of the Orion. :cry:
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I want to say that optimal settings were made by the owner of the DAC.
We used the PS Audio HDMI cable: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/perfectwave-i2s?cat=cables-accessorie
PWD has 6 SRC's choices and 5 digital filters, your results maybe reflecting the owner's preference and not the best sounding settings.
Which model cable, the I2S 10 or the I2S 12?
Which playback software did you use- iTunes, Amarra, Pure Music, etc..?
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Which model cable, the I2S 10 or the I2S 12?
Oh yeah, sorry. It was the I2S 12.
Which playback software did you use- iTunes, Amarra, Pure Music, etc..?
We were using iTunes.
I know some guys that have played with all of those and even were about to be a licensed Amarra dealer, but they had issues with it. The best to date player that I know of is called "Play". We used it after the comparisons and it really smokes iTunes. The problem with it though is that it can only hold a small number of songs and the iTouch will not interface with it.
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Next we listened to the HRT Music Streamer II.
At first there was no comparisons. We just listened to it. Let's just say it was a surprise. This thing may wind up having more discussion about it than most of the DAC's here. So I am going to start a new thread just for this one. So hold your questions about it for the new thread.
Next we decided to try the PS Audio through the computer like everything else. This was a major transformation. It didn't even sound like the same DAC. This doesn't mean however that you will all get better sound out of your PS Audio DAC plugged into a computer. But it certainly shows that you CAN get a lot better sound out of it plugged into a computer. Keep in mind that this was a really well tweaked computer system.
So despite what some of us might have favored in the PS Audio verses Onix comparison we felt like it would be best to move the PS Audio ahead and compare it to the Tranquility as running it from the computer showed it to now be at a new level.
db Audio Labs Tranquility:
Sound stage 3 dimension and width is better, and layering is better (but not by a lot). On Hotel California the guitar sounded more real and had a better sense of feel to it. Drums were slightly tighter.
Gary> Very good. Musical defined. Very little difference in these two DAC's.
PS Audio:
Matches the Tranquility in tonality but is slightly more 2D and has less depth. Image size is now increased in width over running it from the transport. Also the bass is now better than before and it has no more bloat.
Gary> Very good on its own.
We then decided to how the PS Audio as a stand alone DAC compared to the Ayre.
By this time we had really learned the character of all the DAC's. I think I might could have picked each one of them blind.
Comparing these two DAC's the amount of written notes was minimal. In my view the Ayre was 2 dimensional by comparison and not on the same level as the PS Audio. The PS Audio beat it in resolution and imaging. It gave a much better sense of being there.
Gary felt that the Ayre had a more robust bottom end but fuzzy sounding. The PS Audio was just flat out "good".
Next we took the clear favorites, the Tranquility and the PS Audio, and plugged each one into the Dodd Audio balanced power supply and Uber Buss for a listen to each of them. We used better power cables too.
For me it was a relief and a big hello to my old friend "no noise floor". Both DAC's were now on a new plane of existence. Everything was better across the board on both DAC's, but it really sounded like it helped the PS Audio the most. Now both DAC's were very close indeed. This could really go either way not knowing which was which. We through a lot at these things over a good range of music. We whipped out a drum track with a long cymbal intro, and various other songs. These two DAC's were now both unbelievable. If you are now about to purchase one of them then this was where you then ask which is the lower priced DAC. At about half the price that one goes to the Tranquility.
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Sounds like this was a very cool DAC shootout with lots of good insite into the musical qualities of all the units! :)
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If you are now about to purchase one of them then this was where you then ask which is the lower priced DAC. At about half the price that one goes to the Tranquility.
Well, another big question for many of us might be how true 24 bit/96 kHz (or higher) tracks sound through the DAC's! For example, 24/192 HRX DVD via I2S or 24/96 files from the computer.
I realize dbaudiolabs keeps saying their DAC "plays" hi res files and does their best to avoid using phrases like "truncate 24 bit to 16 bit" and "downsample 96 kHz to 44.1 kHz," but that's certainly what their Tranquility DAC does.
I personally do own a substantial library of true hi res music, which sounds amazing, so my next DAC purchase MUST be able to play these files without truncation/downsampling. These comparisons have got my curiosity up about dbaudiolabs, but the Tranquility is simply out of the question for that reason. I believe I read somewhere they are working on DAC that will play hi res files without truncation/downsampling, so perhaps that's what I should look at.
But if they are still going to use 16-bit non-oversampling DAC chip like used in Tranquility, I am not sure how they will achieve true 24/192 capability :scratch:
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Next we listened to the HRT Music Streamer II.
At first there was no comparisons. We just listened to it. Let's just say it was a surprise. This thing may wind up having more discussion about it than most of the DAC's here. So I am going to start a new thread just for this one. So hold your questions about it for the new thread.
Next we decided to try the PS Audio through the computer like everything else. This was a major transformation. It didn't even sound like the same DAC. This doesn't mean however that you will all get better sound out of your PS Audio DAC plugged into a computer. But it certainly shows that you CAN get a lot better sound out of it plugged into a computer. Keep in mind that this was a really well tweaked computer system.
So despite what some of us might have favored in the PS Audio verses Onix comparison we felt like it would be best to move the PS Audio ahead and compare it to the Tranquility as running it from the computer showed it to now be at a new level.
db Audio Labs Tranquility:
Sound stage 3 dimension and width is better, and layering is better (but not by a lot). On Hotel California the guitar sounded more real and had a better sense of feel to it. Drums were slightly tighter.
Gary> Very good. Musical defined. Very little difference in these two DAC's.
PS Audio:
Matches the Tranquility in tonality but is slightly more 2D and has less depth. Image size is now increased in width over running it from the transport. Also the bass is now better than before and it has no more bloat.
Gary> Very good on its own.
We then decided to how the PS Audio as a stand alone DAC compared to the Ayre.
By this time we had really learned the character of all the DAC's. I think I might could have picked each one of them blind.
Comparing these two DAC's the amount of written notes was minimal. In my view the Ayre was 2 dimensional by comparison and not on the same level as the PS Audio. The PS Audio beat it in resolution and imaging. It gave a much better sense of being there.
Gary felt that the Ayre had a more robust bottom end but fuzzy sounding. The PS Audio was just flat out "good".
Next we took the clear favorites, the Tranquility and the PS Audio, and plugged each one into the Dodd Audio balanced power supply and Uber Buss for a listen to each of them. We used better power cables too.
For me it was a relief and a big hello to my old friend "no noise floor". Both DAC's were now on a new plane of existence. Everything was better across the board on both DAC's, but it really sounded like it helped the PS Audio the most. Now both DAC's were very close indeed. This could really go either way not knowing which was which. We through a lot at these things over a good range of music. We whipped out a drum track with a long cymbal intro, and various other songs. These two DAC's were now both unbelievable. If you are now about to purchase one of them then this was where you then ask which is the lower priced DAC. At about half the price that one goes to the Tranquility.
Thanks to all that have posted (except for lowtech - those weren't really posts, more of thorns) about the DACs. It will be interesting to compare some of the local DACs here in a few weeks. We won't have a large selection, but it will be more fodder for the gristmill.
Dave
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I realize dbaudiolabs keeps saying their DAC "plays" hi res files and does their best to avoid using phrases like "truncate 24 bit to 16 bit" and "downsample 96 kHz to 44.1 kHz," but that's certainly what their Tranquility DAC does
I have a 32 bit Wolfson here as well. It was an evaluation board (no longer available). It was as good or better than anything I had compared it to prior to going to the better USB cable from db Audio Labs on my Tranquility (plus cap change).
I sent them both 24 bit files and the Tranquility still sounded better, and it really lost nothing in comparison verses 16 bit 44.1 files.
I understand that the higher bit rate files will be better from a bench racing stand point, but it is really just a small piece of the overall puzzle.
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(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/DAC's.jpg)
Looking at the photo, it looks like PS Audio combo was sitting right on the carpet, with Ayre on top of the PS audio while Tranquility was sitting on top of some kind of platform/stand. Were the DAC's placed on identical stands with the same footers for the comparisons?
As far as hi res, I do agree with you that not all "hi res" DAC's will sound better than all NOS DAC's playing hi res files, truncation and all. However, since the PS Audio DAC and Tranquility were deemed pretty equal by the time power conditioning was thrown in, playing 16/44.1 files, it makes one wonder what would happen if true 24/96-192 files were played through the 2 DAC's.
I realize all this may seem like nitpicking, but I don't own any PS Audio gear or even their stocks :D But knowing what's inside the PS Audio and Tranquility (well, what precious little dbaudiolab has revealed so far), having gone through a lot of USB audio and hi resolution file playback, and having listened to the PS Audio combo in past, it just seems something was "off" somewhere..
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Looking at the photo, it looks like PS Audio combo was sitting right on the carpet, with Ayre on top of the PS audio while Tranquility was sitting on top of some kind of platform/stand. Were the DAC's placed on identical stands with the same footers for the comparisons?
As far as hi res, I do agree with you that not all "hi res" DAC's will sound better than all NOS DAC's playing hi res files, truncation and all. However, since the PS Audio DAC and Tranquility were deemed pretty equal by the time power conditioning was thrown in, playing 16/44.1 files, it makes one wonder what would happen if true 24/96-192 files were played through the 2 DAC's.
I realize all this may seem like nitpicking, but I don't own any PS Audio gear or even their stocks :D But knowing what's inside the PS Audio and Tranquility (well, what precious little dbaudiolab has revealed so far), having gone through a lot of USB audio and hi resolution file playback, and having listened to the PS Audio combo in past, it just seems something was "off" somewhere..
I'm going to make some "general comments" about PS Audio gear. I have listened to, modified, done autopsies and owed their gear for a while. The only pieces of theirs that I kept were Power Plants, because I found their reproduction equipment to be over engineered and underwhelming in performance. When I heard the combo at RMAF once again it did what most of their gear does: it got the notes right, but not the spaces between the notes where spatial info abides. There was a sense of restraint in soundstage that I have heard in almost all of their components. Don't get me wrong. It sounded good, just not excellent. I expected more. I think that their choice of passives in their gear is responsible for this... along with the quantity. Simplicity is the source of excellence in reproduction in my not so humble opinion and experience. Every unneccessary part is a life and soul sucker.
Dave
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Looking at the photo, it looks like PS Audio combo was sitting right on the carpet, with Ayre on top of the PS audio while Tranquility was sitting on top of some kind of platform/stand. Were the DAC's placed on identical stands with the same footers for the comparisons?
It was sitting on the carpet, and it may have been slightly better had they all been on some really great stands, but it wouldn't have closed the gaps that we heard. Differences were fairly significant most of the time.
However, since the PS Audio DAC and Tranquility were deemed pretty equal by the time power conditioning was thrown in, playing 16/44.1 files, it makes one wonder what would happen if true 24/96-192 files were played through the 2 DAC's.
That's a good question, and this comparison was not really to deem any real champion, but to provide real feedback from more than one set of ears and using a really good system.
I think most of the guys here are really not looking for the cost no object end all be all, but a great value is pretty high on the list.
I thought the Music Streamer was a great value and so was the Onix, but for a little more, so is the Tranquility. However, for some, the Tranquility might be out of their price range. So a comparison like this might really provide some good feedback. It was really fun to do too, and audio really needs that (fun get togethers).
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I'm going to make some "general comments" about PS Audio gear. I have listened to, modified, done autopsies and owed their gear for a while. The only pieces of theirs that I kept were Power Plants, because I found their reproduction equipment to be over engineered and underwhelming in performance. When I heard the combo at RMAF once again it did what most of their gear does: it got the notes right, but not the spaces between the notes where spatial info abides. There was a sense of restraint in soundstage that I have heard in almost all of their components. Don't get me wrong. It sounded good, just not excellent. I expected more. I think that their choice of passives in their gear is responsible for this... along with the quantity. Simplicity is the source of excellence in reproduction in my not so humble opinion and experience. Every unneccessary part is a life and soul sucker.
Dave
I agree with you. You are talking to a 3 watt SET die-hard, and I've never been impressed enough with any PS Audio gear to actually buy one, the latest being their PS Digital Link III DAC which I home-auditioned.
However, I think PS Audio has really stepped out of their usual game with the PerfectWave transport/DAC, at least conceptually. The prospect of their network bridge (when it finally ships :duh:) and the new Digital Lens are some real advances in the whole digital/PC Audio world. Actually, I think they are actually trying too many things and have ended up with an overly complicated product, but I like their spirit!
I have liked the PS Audio combo enough to consider purchasing the PerfectWave combo, but in the end, I really only want ONE highly-optimized digital input for my Audio PC, be it USB, firewire, or some kind of soundcard/I2S.
As far as the carpet thing. IME, transports and DAC's are some of the most sensitive to footers and stands. I regularly find larger differences by changing footer/stand than going from one DAC to another. JIMHO..
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Danny,
Thank you for a great, well worded, and highly anticipated post. :thumb: Your time and effort in putting this all together, having the shootout, posting the findings, and following up, is fantastic and very much appreciated. :beer:
What would be very cool is to see a Second Annual Great DAC Shootout. :eyebrows:
Thanks again,
Jerry
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As far as the carpet thing. IME, transports and DAC's are some of the most sensitive to footers and stands. I regularly find larger differences by changing footer/stand than going from one DAC to another. JIMHO..
Once again I agree with Jon.
How can you put one DAC/Transport on the carpet and the perferred DAC on a stand and do a fair comparison?
We still don't know which of the PWD's 6 SRC's choices and 5 digital filters were engaged.
We still don't know what playback software was used- iTunes, Amarra, Pure Music, etc...
From what I've read about the PWD it was optimized to drive amps directly via the balanced outputs, yet you connected it to a single ended preamp/amp combo.
And this statement that:
"Even comparing it to Mac laptops, etc, it still comes out on top. There are several reasons for its rise to the top but I don't see need to go into those now."
I'm at a loss to understand how a mini running off a noisy SMPS can sound better than a laptop with the same ram and SSD running off battery.
Finally, how can you evaluate anything with a speaker with this measured response:
(http://)
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How can you put one DAC/Transport on the carpet and the perferred DAC on a stand and do a fair comparison?
Would it could it make a difference? Maybe so, and likely very little. Keep in mind that the PS Audio combo weighed 50 to 60 pounds as the whole chassis is mass damped. So I just don't see that one thing bringing it down too much.
We still don't know which of the PWD's 6 SRC's choices and 5 digital filters were engaged.
I'll check on that and see what I can find out.
We still don't know what playback software was used- iTunes, Amarra, Pure Music, etc...
I did answer that. See above post.
From what I've read about the PWD it was optimized to drive amps directly via the balanced outputs, yet you connected it to a single ended preamp/amp combo.
It was connected to a passive buffer as were all the others.
I'm at a loss to understand how a mini running off a noisy SMPS can sound better than a laptop with the same ram and SSD running off battery.
Yep, been there done that and so have a whole group of others that I know. The Mac Mini sounds better.
Finally, how can you evaluate anything with a speaker with this measured response:
The pair I used was a little smoother up top that this pair and within +/-2.5db end to end, and pretty flat below 3kHz. Even this one pictured is +/-1.7db from 3kHz on down. That is a lot smoother and more accurate than most speakers out there.
You were planing to come to LSAF in a few weeks and you can come hear that pair for yourself. If they are not one of the best sounding, most revealing, and most dynamic speakers that you have ever heard in your life, then dinner is on me.
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Color me skeptical about the Mac Mini vs. other computing devices thing, as well as the usb cable, but I enough respect for Danny's ability to set that aside here. It's not relevant to the comparison data anyway. The equipment he used is what it was. As a speculative thought as to reasons, does the mini perhaps have discreet graphics? That would keep the graphics core off the pci bus where the sound card resides. Even laptops with discreet graphics will frequently use a chipset that actually has integrated graphics on the northbridge even if they're not in use.
When I heard the PS Audio room at RMAF last year it was really dry. As mentioned above, it did a lot right, and had all the notes in place, but there wasn't enough spacial information. Perhaps it was over-damped in the name of reducing the noise floor or something, but it sort of felt like trying to have a conversation in an anechoic chamber. Just a little unnatural and uncomfortable. Of course I don't know which component's fault it was, but it sounds like Dave is describing something similar.
Just out of curiosity, since I have a special interest in the Onix DAC-25, was the upsampling function used at all, and at what setting? Also, did you try any of these out using their digital (non-usb) inputs fed by some other transport? If so, the S/PDIF input on the Onix should have an advantage due to a Cirrus Logic receiver/buffer. I'm a little curious as to whether that made a difference you could hear - even as compared to the optical input on the same dac in the absence of another dac without that feature. In my own testing it sounded better that way (fed by the S/PDIF outputs on the Onix CD-10 or my RME Fireface 800) than when fed directly by the pc via usb although admittedly my pc, while acoustically very quiet, may have held it back more than your Mac Mini.
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Great review. So the Tranquility was everyones favorite? Its a nonoversampling DAC?
Thanks.
M
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Thank you Danny and all for your efforts and reporting back ...
Happy Spring :)
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You were planing to come to LSAF in a few weeks and you can come hear that pair for yourself. If they are not one of the best sounding, most revealing, and most dynamic speakers that you have ever heard in your life, then dinner is on me.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and the offer to hear
your speakers, but I have no plans of traveling to Texas.
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I'm going to make some "general comments" about PS Audio gear. I have listened to, modified, done autopsies and owed their gear for a while. The only pieces of theirs that I kept were Power Plants, because I found their reproduction equipment to be over engineered and underwhelming in performance. When I heard the combo at RMAF once again it did what most of their gear does: it got the notes right, but not the spaces between the notes where spatial info abides. There was a sense of restraint in soundstage that I have heard in almost all of their components. Don't get me wrong. It sounded good, just not excellent. I expected more. I think that their choice of passives in their gear is responsible for this... along with the quantity. Simplicity is the source of excellence in reproduction in my not so humble opinion and experience. Every unneccessary part is a life and soul sucker.
Dave
Dave, I concur with the above. PS hyped their ram buffered re-clocked data stream to I2S output. The I2S DAC was to complete the synergy from the lens loaded transport or lens loaded bridge (yet to be rolled out) which, when attached, would receive a wireless or ethernet wired burned file feed. I beta tested the PWD alone, so had no I2S and found the SPDIF inputs to be "unremarkable", thin and bass devoid. The PWD(PS DAC) has a digital volume control, one the factory purports to excel when the unit is used as a pre-amp with volume settings ideally above 50%. I found, nothing could be further from the truth, that this unit definitely benefitted from a good "analog" inducing pre-amp. The SRC and filter applications were "non eventful" between settings. So everyone knows, the USB was never factory optimized, no asynchronous or NOS here. USB is not embraced with corporate mindsets at PS. I sent it off to Cullen Circuits whose findings included loose fitting components, flawed sampling circuitry, and compromised output stages. I'm not suggesting, only reporting, but their findings supported my disposition. Basically, PS is betting the bank with their I2S implementation, so it was quite the SURPRISE to hear Danny's report implying a clean powered, USB fed PS DAC(PWD) trumps it's I2S inputs ! Many PWD owners made a bet on a promise, that the undeveloped PS bridge would get them "there". I see no reason its performance would be any better than with the partnered transport, though the bridge is reported to accept higher rez audio ! Since the Uber and Dodd power supply were reported to get the PS DAC USB into Tranquiity territory, it speaks volumes for those products and that front ends are game changers. I look forward to the PS owner's report when the bridge rolls out in June. With a good power supply, will he hear any nuances between USB and I2S ? Yes, that's the $64k question. Further, how will that compare to the NECO approach ?
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Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and the offer to hear
your speakers, but I have no plans of traveling to Texas.
Because of your pic I thought you were Jim from Diffraction-be-gone.
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Dave, I concur with the above. PS hyped their ram buffered re-clocked data stream to I2S output. The I2S DAC was to complete the synergy from the lens loaded transport or lens loaded bridge (yet to be rolled out) which, when attached, would receive a wireless or ethernet wired burned file feed. I beta tested the PWD alone, so had no I2S and found the SPDIF inputs to be "unremarkable", thin and bass devoid. The PWD(PS DAC) has a digital volume control, one the factory purports to excel when the unit is used as a pre-amp with volume settings ideally above 50%. I found, nothing could be further from the truth, that this unit definitely benefitted from a good "analog" inducing pre-amp. The SRC and filter applications were "non eventful" between settings. So everyone knows, the USB was never factory optimized, no asynchronous or NOS here. USB is not embraced with corporate mindsets at PS. I sent it off to Cullen Circuits whose findings included loose fitting components, flawed sampling circuitry, and compromised output stages. I'm not suggesting, only reporting, but their findings supported my disposition. Basically, PS is betting the bank with their I2S implementation, so it was quite the SURPRISE to hear Danny's report implying a clean powered, USB fed PS DAC(PWD) trumps it's I2S inputs ! Many PWD owners made a bet on a promise, that the undeveloped PS bridge would get them "there". I see no reason its performance would be any better than with the partnered transport, though the bridge is reported to accept higher rez audio ! Since the Uber and Dodd power supply were reported to get the PS DAC USB into Tranquiity territory, it speaks volumes for those products and that front ends are game changers. I look forward to the PS owner's report when the bridge rolls out in June. With a good power supply, will he hear any nuances between USB and I2S ? Yes, that's the $64k question. Further, how will that compare to the NECO approach ?
\
If you didn't like the PWD, how come you bought two of them?
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Dave, I concur with the above. PS hyped their ram buffered re-clocked data stream to I2S output. The I2S DAC was to complete the synergy from the lens loaded transport or lens loaded bridge (yet to be rolled out) which, when attached, would receive a wireless or ethernet wired burned file feed. I beta tested the PWD alone, so had no I2S and found the SPDIF inputs to be "unremarkable", thin and bass devoid. The PWD(PS DAC) has a digital volume control, one the factory purports to excel when the unit is used as a pre-amp with volume settings ideally above 50%. I found, nothing could be further from the truth, that this unit definitely benefitted from a good "analog" inducing pre-amp. The SRC and filter applications were "non eventful" between settings. So everyone knows, the USB was never factory optimized, no asynchronous or NOS here. USB is not embraced with corporate mindsets at PS. I sent it off to Cullen Circuits whose findings included loose fitting components, flawed sampling circuitry, and compromised output stages. I'm not suggesting, only reporting, but their findings supported my disposition. Basically, PS is betting the bank with their I2S implementation, so it was quite the SURPRISE to hear Danny's report implying a clean powered, USB fed PS DAC(PWD) trumps it's I2S inputs ! Many PWD owners made a bet on a promise, that the undeveloped PS bridge would get them "there". I see no reason its performance would be any better than with the partnered transport, though the bridge is reported to accept higher rez audio ! Since the Uber and Dodd power supply were reported to get the PS DAC USB into Tranquiity territory, it speaks volumes for those products and that front ends are game changers. I look forward to the PS owner's report when the bridge rolls out in June. With a good power supply, will he hear any nuances between USB and I2S ? Yes, that's the $64k question. Further, how will that compare to the NECO approach ?
PS Audio gear has always been an enigma. Although I respect their intentions, they always seem to fall down in application. I've been inside a lot of PS Audio gear. Their part selection was done by accounting with only an eye to the cheapest part acceptable to do the job. That is not how outstanding performance is attained. I finad that too many companies are attached to the "parts is parts" mentality in audio. wheteher we like it or not there are superior and inferior parts for audio use. All caps do not sound the same. Same goes for resistors and yes, wire too. I applaud the manufacturer that takes the time and expense necessary to select the best (sonically) part for the job. PS Audio isn't one. Too bad. I like buying American. That is why a db Audio Labs DAC is in my near future. Besides, I've heard it and liked it... a lot!
Dave
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PS Audio gear has always been an enigma. Although I respect their intentions, they always seem to fall down in application. I've been inside a lot of PS Audio gear. Their part selection was done by accounting with only an eye to the cheapest part acceptable to do the job. That is not how outstanding performance is attained. I finad that too many companies are attached to the "parts is parts" mentality in audio. wheteher we like it or not there are superior and inferior parts for audio use. All caps do not sound the same. Same goes for resistors and yes, wire too. I applaud the manufacturer that takes the time and expense necessary to select the best (sonically) part for the job. PS Audio isn't one. Too bad. I like buying American. That is why a db Audio Labs DAC is in my near future. Besides, I've heard it and liked it... a lot!
Dave
How about you or Danny posting a picture of the inside of the db Audio Labs, so we can see their parts
quality?
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Or just take advantage of dB Audio Labs' 30 day return policy and hear how it sounds.
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How about you or Danny posting a picture of the inside of the db Audio Labs, so we see their parts
quality?
I personally would never do that. I think that one has to pay the price of admission to see what is inside or be told it is OK in an open forum to post pictures of other people's intellectual property. There are many people that would rip off a small company just for sport and more that would do it for money. I feel that there is an entitlement mentality that says: "It's OK to see what everyone else does." I do not have that kind of mindset.
Dave
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How about you or Danny posting a picture of the inside of the db Audio Labs, so we see their parts quality?
I could not do that either. Having been inside one and changed out the output coupling caps from the Mundorf Supreme's (excellent caps) to the Sonicap Platinum's, I have certainly seen the guts. There was no junk in there. Even the RCA's are really good.
The fact that they didn't skimp on parts quality also showed up in the listening comparisons.
You can always order one and see for yourself.
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I have great respect for the new guys in audio gear, start ups what have you. But are guys saying that there should never be a published photo of the interior of a component? Isn't it common for most online reviewers to show the internals? I sort of expect it.
Cheers, ed
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I have a pair of modified Eico amps that Gary Dodd redesigned for me. I have had a couple of AC members ask me to show a photo of what he did. However, I have not and will not publish a picture showing the modifications without his permission.
BTW, would someone put up a crossover schematic of a Salk HT4 for me? I'd like to build one and cut Jim out of his intellectual property. :duh:
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I have great respect for the new guys in audio gear, start ups what have you. But are guys saying that there should never be a published photo of the interior of a component? Isn't it common for most online reviewers to show the internals? I sort of expect it.
Cheers, ed
Ed, I guess that it is a question of peer respect. Wide distribution consumer audio gear is one thing. Limited distribution, individually owned companies that are doing the heavy lifting and designing a better mouse trap, or DAC, is quite another. I have a respect for those that are trying to make a living by doing the best work that they can with what they have. Eric and crew are developing proprietary methods of doing D/A conversion and I think that they are entitled to a 'bit' of discretion by others.
My products do not use mainstream technology to achieve the performance that they achieve. That is why I pot my devices. I worked hard at building a better filter and it is not my intention to make it easy for someone to rip off my work. Patent protection only goes so far. I know from personal experience.
I appreciate the long hours that the guys at db Audio Labs put into the Tranquility DAC more than others, I suppose.
Dave
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BTW, would someone put up a crossover schematic of a Salk HT4 for me? I'd like to build one and cut Jim out of his intellectual property.
That's a poor analogy. No one has asked for a schematic. I think most just want to see the fit and finish and gain a sense of the physical quality of the product, beyond a generic project case.
And after the Oppo/Lexicon affair, probably just want to reassure themselves that there isn't a circuit board from an HRT Music Streamer II lurking inside.
Steve
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Ed, I guess that it is a question of peer respect. Wide distribution consumer audio gear is one thing. Limited distribution, individually owned companies that are doing the heavy lifting and designing a better mouse trap, or DAC, is quite another. I have a respect for those that are trying to make a living by doing the best work that they can with what they have. Eric and crew are developing proprietary methods of doing D/A conversion and I think that they are entitled to a 'bit' of discretion by others.
My products do not use mainstream technology to achieve the performance that they achieve. That is why I pot my devices. I worked hard at building a better filter and it is not my intention to make it easy for someone to rip off my work. Patent protection only goes so far. I know from personal experience.
I appreciate the long hours that the guys at db Audio Labs put into the Tranquility DAC more than others, I suppose.
Dave
So, it’s ok to dump on the “big guy,” PS Audio’s parts quality,
but your “little guy,” db audio labs is entitled to a 'bit' of discretion and we're not allowed to see what their parts and build quality looks like.
PS Audio doesn't seem to have any problem showing the insides of their DAC
and transport. There's lots of pictures in the sixmoon review of the PWT/PWD
and on there website.
I'll bet a lot more hours went into the development of the PWD, than went into the Tranquility DAC.
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That's a poor analogy. No one has asked for a schematic. I think most just want to see the fit and finish and gain a sense of the physical quality of the product, beyond a generic project case.
And after the Oppo/Lexicon affair, probably just want to reassure themselves that there isn't a circuit board from an HRT Music Streamer II lurking inside.
Steve
Perhaps you are right. However, this unit is offered on a trial basis, and I can understand a manufacturers reluctance to publish photos of the insides. If you are trying to get a handle on the build quality, perhaps asking which brand caps or resistors might give you the clues you need without divulging proprietary information.
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The proof is in the pudding fellows.
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I felt really lucky to join the group for the DAC shootout listening session, thanks Danny. It was great fun hanging out with the guys and all that wonderful equipment.
Before I start to describe my opinions of the sounds of these DAC’s I would like to remind everyone, there is no replacement for hearing one of these in your own system. I went into this comparison with a good knowledge of the sound of Danny’s system so it was next best thing to hearing them in my own system. So if your in the market for a DAC, always try to get a 30 day return option if possible so you can have plenty of time with your choice in your own room and system.
Just so you will know my listening preferences, I love good imaging and a smooth upper midrange above all else. I use open baffle speakers, Orion’s, because of their imaging quality. 99% of my music collection is 16/44 files stored on a Drobo and played on a Macbook laptop via iTunes. My previous DAC was a Cambridge DacMagic, it’s now sold and I’m currently using a Music Streamer II.
I feel for some people the looks and or features of a particular piece of equipment is just as important as the sound. So I will give a brief run down on what I heard in these machines and my opinion of their “high-end” looks starting in alphabetical order.
Ayre QB-9 USB DAC.
This unit for sure has a high-end look to it, medium sized and the review sample was in silver, not sure if black is available. Only one input, usb asynchronous and a very nice display to inform you of the sampling frequency of the input signal.
As for the sound...........I could not stand this thing. It was by far the worst sounding unit in the bunch. Very dry, flat, vocals recessed and absolutely boring. With Eagles Hotel California live, the sound of the audience sounded more like bacon frying, not the sound of a large group of people. This really grated at me, throughout that entire song the sound of the audience was just an irritant that reminded me of white noise. Enough said.
DB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC.
This unit is somewhat small, nicely built but not an extreme high-end chassis and comes in basic silver. The buttons to push, well there aren’t any really, since it has only one input, usb.
The sound on the other had, which is the most important part for me, was nothing short of amazing. I had heard this DAC in Danny’s system before but didn’t realize just how far it was above the others until this shootout. The Tranquility has 3D imaging that is to die for, much more analog sounding than the other DAC’s in the group. And that audience on Hotel California Live, completely 3D, I felt as though I was in the audience, the most real sounding DAC I have every heard. I don’t mean to carry on but the audience sound really caught me off guard, completely immersive. I could live very happily with the Tranquility.
HRT Music Streamer II.
This unit was my own personal unit and was not scheduled to be a part of the shootout, it was included at the last minute at my request. I got the unit from Amazon and had been playing it 24/7 for one week before the comparison. When it was cold and first plugged into my system I felt it was something special for only $149.00, this was my reason for asking the guys to include it.
As for looks, there isn’t any really, very tiny, hide it behind your computer or anything else because it’s nothing to look at. Inputs, only one, async usb and 24/96 capability. I felt the other guys first judged it by it’s looks and didn’t really think it would “measure up” to the other units on hand. I found it to be better than I had previously thought. No it’s not as good as the Tranquility, I would give it 3rd place in my opinion, just a tiny bit too bright compared to the Tranquility or PS PWD, but amazing for only $149.00.
Onix DAC.
Nice looking piece with multiple inputs and has a headphone amp built in.
I had previously had the chance to hear this unit in my own system so I knew what it was capable of. Nice sounding unit, just not the last word in refinement, but overall a very good DAC for the money, I ranked it forth.
PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC and Perfect Wave Transport.
These units have good looks in spades and way to many features for me to list. As for looks and features they are my favorite. For sound they come in second for me. Now with the Transport as the source feeding the DAC it first floored me, more than almost anything I have ever heard, with it’s 3D, super deep center stage imaging. But that is where the fun ended, the sound stage was only between the speakers all though very deep. When the DAC was feed from the Mac the sound took on an entirely different character. In this configuration the DAC gave a wider soundstage but not as deep as before. I found the sound of this unit to be first rate only edged out by the Tranquility in the area of “real sounding”. I could live with the PS DAC if it was just a little cheaper, given it’s level of performance and it’s price compared to the other units, 3G’s just seems a little tuff to me.
One last thing to include was the DB Audio Labs USB cable. I have always felt the “high-end” usb cables to be nothing but snake oil products, I was wrong. We did all of our listening with the DB Labs cable and then switched to a higher priced, highly rated cable and the sound........went way down hill, closed in and flat compared to the DB Labs cable. I’m going to purchase the DB cable for sure even though it cost more than my Music Streamer II.
All of this information comes with two of the modern worlds most famous CYA policies. Some assemble required and your milage may vary.
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...are guys saying that there should never be a published photo of the interior of a component? Isn't it common for most online reviewers to show the internals? I sort of expect it.
Cheers, ed
Online reviewers?
I thought this was just Danny and GR Research doing something pretty cool for all of us here at AC... I didn't really consider this a 'published' review, wherein the manufacturer and publisher discussed phtographs and such. I thought it was a Listener's 'Shootout'.
IMHO, this thread has been really very cool, from the very start. I sincerely hope there are many more, just like this one. Pictures are not required. :thumb:
Have fun,
Jerry
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Also, before I get into the comparisons I want to mention that we also had a Neko DAC here as well, but we lost it.
<snip>
Unfortunately the company owner had us send it to a reviewer a week before this get together so it was not included in the mix. The company owner may have reached the limit of his patience as it took us a while to get this comparison going as it was not easy to finally score one of the Ayre DAC's.
Having spent some time with the Neko DAC listening to it just before sending it off, I would have to say that it would have faired really well. I would have put it ahead of the Ayre DAC and the PS Audio transport/DAC combo for sure. I did compare it to my modded (cap change) Tranquility DAC and was very impressed with it. I thought it gave a few things up to the Tranquility but not by leaps and bounds. It held its own quite well, and I would easily still recommend it for audition to anyone interested in it.
Thanks for the mention, Danny. I'm afraid I had been in communication with the other reviewer for a bit and had already delayed once getting a loaner to him. Otherwise once I heard you were getting the Ayre I would've been happy to let you hold onto it a little longer. Just some bad timing since I only found that out afterwards.
Thanks for your understanding, and also for the strong recommendation. :)
BTW - If anyone would like to compare the Neko Audio D100 to their own DAC, I offer my setup for auditions by appointment. I just had a couple of people here yesterday for a comparison with the Lavry DA10.
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So, it’s ok to dump on the “big guy,” PS Audio’s parts quality,
but your “little guy,” db audio labs is entitled to a 'bit' of discretion and we're not allowed to see what their parts and build quality looks like.
PS Audio doesn't seem to have any problem showing the insides of their DAC
and transport. There's lots of pictures in the sixmoon review of the PWT/PWD
and on there website.
I'll bet a lot more hours went into the development of the PWD, than went into the Tranquility DAC.
Whatever. You asked a question and I gave my answer and my reasons.
I've seen inside both units. The parts selection in the Tranquility is exemplary. As far as dumping on PS Audio, I simply gave my opinion. Their parts are generic "audio grade" parts. Nothing special. That is all that I am saying. PS Audio opts to show pictures of their gear. Eric doesn't. I respect his choice. There is too little respect in this world. To me it would be like someone showing everyone that they know pictures of my wife (or yours) in the nude. :nono: Mine looks very good clothed and that is all anyone else gets but me.
It is extremely difficult being a small business guy in this economy.
Dave
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Whatever. You asked a question and I gave my answer and my reasons.
I've seen inside both units. The parts selection in the Tranquility is exemplary. As far as dumping on PS Audio, I simply gave my opinion. Their parts are generic "audio grade" parts. Nothing special. That is all that I am saying. PS Audio opts to show pictures of their gear. Eric doesn't. I respect his choice. There is too little respect in this world. To me it would be like someone showing everyone that they know pictures of my wife (or yours) in the nude. :nono: Mine looks very good clothed and that is all anyone else gets but me.
It is extremely difficult being a small business guy in this economy.
Dave
“As far as dumping on PS Audio, I simply gave my opinion.”
Who asked you to make some "general comments" about PS Audio gear and bash their parts quality?
Yes, it’s extremely difficult being a small business guy in this economy; I know I’d never buy anything from a guy like you. 8)
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Online reviewers?
I thought this was just Danny and GR Research doing something pretty cool for all of us here at AC... I didn't really consider this a 'published' review, wherein the manufacturer and publisher discussed phtographs and such. I thought it was a Listener's 'Shootout'.
IMHO, this thread has been really very cool, from the very start. I sincerely hope there are many more, just like this one. Pictures are not required. :thumb:
Have fun,
Jerry
Jerry, I interpreted the comments above my first post as stating small manufacturers would never allow photos of the internals of their gear-not specifically referring to this DAC shootout. I understand protecting livelihood, but can you really reverse engineer a product from a general digital photo? I don't know--I am not savvy in electronics.
How small is small? My Red Wine Audio Amp is fairly obscure. though that design may fall into the nothing new category. But that is my reference (as well as my Modwright) and those products and similar do have internal pics when the product is reviewed at 6moons, etc. I was just wondering if the DBAudio or other small manufacturers would forego having the product reviewed if photos were requested?
cheers, ed
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Let me add my note of 'thanks' to Danny, Gary and the other participants--my viewpoint on all this is that this is a shootout/get together by a group of enthusiasts like most/all of us. They have gone to the time, effort & expense (plus had some fun :D) to share with us their reaction/insight/personal preferences--and I truly appreciate it. Heck I may not buy any of the DAC's they listened to, and of course my preferences in my system might be totally different, but their sharing of their experiences at a minimum gives me a few more items of information that I can use or not use at my own choice.
Thanks guys; I wish you had been able to include the new Eastern Electric DAC in the shootout, but of course the list could go on and on.....
Randy
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I've really enjoyed reading these reviews and appreciate the additional data points.
Makes me appreciate my own system a little more! :wink:
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Yes, it’s extremely difficult being a small business guy in this economy; I know I’d never buy anything from a guy like you. 8)
I'll try not to lose any sleep over that.
Dave
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Next is the USB cable. I have tried a lot of them including some in the $450 to $600 range. The db Audio Labs cable is the best I have used and very neutral sounding. It was used with all DAC's.
Which other USB cables have you tried? Can you do a quick comparison on them?
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Which other USB cables have you tried? Can you do a quick comparison on them?
Originally Eric Hider sent be a handful of USB's to try. This was back in August or September, and I used various ones off and on through RMAF in Oct. I really don't remember what most of them were and didn't want to know (especially considering the price differences) so as to not allow it to sway my preference.
I setting on a Ridge Street Audio cable (also on loan), and sent the rest back. I then later ordered the Ridge Street Alethias.
Then a customer sent me one of the better cables from Lotus Design group. I can remember which model. I want to say it was in the $400 range.
I then tried the db Audio Labs cable and liked it better than any that I had tried and it was not that expensive at all.
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I neglected to thank my fellow reviewers and also mention that I really appreciated those who provided the DACs that were reviewed. It is not an easy chore to listen to that many DACs in paired challenges. You have to really keep your ears sharp. The Shoot Out took most of the afternoon and was great fun. I know that many of the people posting to the tread wanted to hear more DACs thrown into the mix, but time rules all and what we had was enough.
I personally have some 24/96 DVD-A and FLAC files at home, but like many (I am *assuming*) listen to 16/44.1 files more than anything else, so that is what was tested.
I hope that you enjoyed reading as much as I enjoyed listening and providing my personal preferences. If one of the DACs piques your curiosity, I believe that most vendors do provide a 30 day trial period as everyone's listening system and room arrangement are different.
As an FYI, back in the January 2010 Shoot Out my top two preferences were the Wolfson Evaluation board run off battery power and the Buffalo ESS Sabre DAC.
Thanks,
Chris
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Chris,
Glad you liked the Wolfson DAC and battery supply. That is the DIY DAC project that I built and sent to Danny and Gary to get some feedback on sound quality. I like the one I have here a lot! :D
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To me it would be like someone showing everyone that they know pictures of my wife (or yours) in the nude. :nono: Mine looks very good clothed and that is all anyone else gets but me.
wait a minute, tho - if your wife were for sale, wouldn't it be normal for someone to want to see pics, if not the real thing, before the "purchase"? :lol:
sorry, i yust couldn't resist - the above comment has nothing to do w/the real question at hand - i am firmly on the fence... :green:
doug s.
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wait a minute, tho - if your wife were for sale, wouldn't it be normal for someone to want to see pics, if not the real thing, before the "purchase"? :lol:
sorry, i yust couldn't resist - the above comment has nothing to do w/the real question at hand - i am firmly on the fence... :green:
doug s.
Doug, it is a strange comparison in a strange situation. I guess I just don't understand why someone that is obviously not interested in purchasing one of the DACs in question is making such a big deal out of honoring soemones right to confidentiality. See, for me if a manufacturer chooses to post a million pictures of their product, that's cool. If a manufacturer chooses to not post pictures, that's cool, too. It just seems like the gentlemean has an axe to grind with this site.
I probably wouldn't sell Gayle. If I did I wouldn't post nude pictures. She looks really good, but revealing pictures of a 60 year old woman are just TMI, if you know what I mean. :icon_lol: You could make an offer, though.
Dave
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She'll probably sell you first....for scrap :lol:
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See, for me if a manufacturer chooses to post a million pictures of their product, that's cool. If a manufacturer chooses to not post pictures, that's cool, too.
I think most people have no disagreement with your statement. I think they're just stating the fact that because most manufacturers do post pictures, and that it's become more or less the norm, the manufacturer who cloaks his product in secrecy shouldn't expect to reap the sales numbers of those that don't.
I personally don't see why both sides couldn't be served. Obviously, there is a circuit board with components, a transformer, capacitors, jacks, etc. A picture could certainly be shown with the chip masked, and there would be nothing proprietary revealed, just to showcase the neatness and quality of construction.
I don't even think the website has a photo of the back panel!
Correction: On a second look at the website, I did find a back panel photo on the Specs page.
Some people do small manufacturing as a passion and hobby, and perhaps the actual number of sales is less of a concern than the satisfaction of producing the product.
Steve
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I don't even think the website has a photo of the back panel!
Some people do small manufacturing as a passion and hobby, and perhaps the actual number of sales is less of a concern than the satisfaction of producing the product.
Steve
Well, I 'don't think' that you have really looked at their website, have you? If you had you would see the pictures of the back and others.
I'm not "some people", nor do I believe Eric is either, that is doing this for satisfaction. My wife and I need to eat and pay bills like most people. There are a lot of assumptions made by audio types about what is or is not a "real business". Somehow small manufacturers are supposed to play by a set of rules established by others concerning business practices. Once again, as small business owners, we are responsible for all of it, from production to sales to cleaning the shop. The buck stops with us. We garner all of the glory and $$$ from our sales and bear the brunt of all of the people that diss our approaches and results without ever actually using our products.
Owning a small business is one of life's overrated little pleasures. Most of us do it because we love what we do and do not want to rely upon other's whims and/or economic conditions for a paycheck. We want to work, not live off of unemployment or being stuck in a boring job. For all of this we get the honor of having someone bitch about not seeing pictures of our innovation and, in my case, years of very hard work. How nice.
Dave
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I really don't get the negativity... Simply put, these guys spent a weekend evaluating dacs and sharing their impressions with the rest of us. It was informative for me, so thanks for the efforts and the info. :thumb:
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I really don't the negativity... Simply put, these guys spent a weekend evaluating dacs and sharing their impressions with the rest of us. It was informative for me, so thanks for the efforts and the info. :thumb:
Me neither, this took a left turn because of someone that took exception when I said I wouldn't post a picture of the inside of the Tranquility when I get one. All I can say for the guys that did the Shootout is: Thank You. There is a lot of good info in this thread from people that actually did something instead of whine. I learned a lot from them. Thanks guys and thanks to all of the vendors and people that supplied the DACs for the event.
I look forward to hearing Rich's DAC next month. I'll be taking my modded Gigawork DAC to the LSAF. It will be on battery power... thanks to Gary Dodd.
Dave
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I look forward to hearing Rich's DAC next month. I'll be taking my modded Gigawork DAC to the LSAF. It will be on battery power... thanks to Gary Dodd.
Dave
I'm looking forward to meeting you there and hopefully learning a bit about diffusers. I'll have a Buffalo Dac that Gary put together on batteries there as well. I know that you'll be busy, but try to make it by the Jr. Audiophile room if you can.
Scott
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...we also had a Neko DAC here as well...
Neko DAC: http://www.nekoaudio.com/
Originally one was sent with only balanced outputs and some very inexpensive XLR to RCA cables that really held it back... the cables really weren't helping it...
Cables: http://www.nekoaudio.com/#accessories
So it was returned and another was sent with RCA outputs. Being able to use my higher quality RCA cables from Electra Cable brought it up quite a bit...
I wonder what could have been the issue with those XLR-to-RCA cables? I think Wesley makes them himself - they use Belden 1800F cable and Canare/Neutrik connectors, and are properly wired (XLR pin-1 tied to RCA shield) as appropriate for the D100's rather unique transformer output stage. How odd that they could have possibly held back the D100's performance? :?:
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jhm731 you have already stated you will not buy anything from dBe, you don't appreciate his comments about PS Audio, and you want him to post pics of the Tranquility DAC which he won't do, so will you please take any new comments directed to him offline to pm? It is adding nothing valuable to the intent of this thread.
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I'm looking forward to meeting you there and hopefully learning a bit about diffusers. I'll have a Buffalo Dac that Gary put together on batteries there as well. I know that you'll be busy, but try to make it by the Jr. Audiophile room if you can.
Scott
Scott, wild horses couldn't keep me away from that room. I've got to see where those drivers ended up.
On the diffuser end of things, I'm having a heluva time with my fabricator. This has been going on for months and I'm about at my wits end. I hope to have enough to treat the rooms that I've committed to doing. If I can get better than a 75% reject rat I'll hve a chance. We can certainly talk, though :D
Dave
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I wonder what could have been the issue with those XLR-to-RCA cables? I think Wesley makes them himself - they use Belden 1800F cable and Canare/Neutrik connectors, and are properly wired (XLR pin-1 tied to RCA shield) as appropriate for the D100's rather unique transformer output stage. How odd that they could have possibly held back the D100's performance?
That was a real entry level cable and it gave a lot up to the higher quality cables I was using in the rest of my system. When he sent one with RCA's it allowed me to use my cables and the quality of playback across the board went up quiet a bit.
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What I love about Danny and friends is their "maximum bang for the buck" approach - not "cost no object approach." They somehow still end up creating products that don't feel shy hanging with the best and have no excuses hooked up to humble or fancy electronics.
For me, this is a sane way to approach this hobby, especially in the economy :thumb:
We need more folks like this to let us all enjoy this hobby and connect with music.
Thank you Danny and friends ...
Wish you all the best - to further your work ...
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Hey Guys,
It looks like our comparison is quite the talk over on the PS Audio forum. I'd like to respond to the guys over there with some open offers.
But first let's please put something to rest.
Dave was not impressed with previous PS Audio gear that he had or that he had been into and expressed his opinion on the parts quality used....
Their part selection was done by accounting with only an eye to the cheapest part acceptable to do the job.
Ryan Cnway of PS Audio stated this regarding Dave's comments...
Could we use more expensive parts in some cases? Sure
Would more expensive parts result in higher performance? Maybe.
Would more those expensive parts result in a higher retail cost. Absolutely!
Dave is entitled to his opinion and the guys from PS Audio are entitled to choose whatever they want to use to meet the price points that they are trying to stay within. So let's give both of them a break on this one and move past it.
Now, it sounds like the PS Audio guys kind of question our results. And you PS Audio fans please pass this info from this post over to them.
Without question: 1) The PS Audio sound MUCH better being played via USB cable from the Mac Mini. 2) It benefited greatly from plugging it into the Dodd Audio balanced power supply and Uber Buss from PI Audio. As a side note: The Tranquility DAC also benefited from the power conditioning but not to the degree of the PS Audio.
I might also remind that the PS Audio gear was using PS Audio's best HDMI cable and their second best power cables (I think).
So I have two proposals for the guys at PS Audio.
1) I would welcome you to send or bring another DAC and player to be set up any way they want for a second comparison to see for themselves if there is any question to the validity of the results we posted. Yes, send or bring, my house is open to you.
2) Please come down to the Lone Star Audio Fest next month. See info here: http://www.lonestaraudiofest.com/ Rooms are very inexpensive and start at only $99 a night. The size of those room are just a shade smaller then the rooms we exhibit in (standard room) at RMAF. Larger ones are also available. So the only real expense is just getting there. I will have basically the same system on hand that we used in the comparison and they are welcome to bring anything they want into our room for complete comparisons under their control. And, BTW, I have one of the larger rooms.
3) Ryan Conway and Paul McGowen are welcome to come and post here if they like, or propose anything they like.
Another thing to keep in mind. We were not out to get anybody. We did this for fun.
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I've been interested in the Wavelength Cosecant v3. Anyone watching this thread have any experience with this DAC, especially in comparison to those reviewed? Thanks, Kent
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I've been interested in the Wavelength Cosecant v3. Anyone watching this thread have any experience with this DAC, especially in comparison to those reviewed? Thanks, Kent
I have a lot of experience with the Cosecant V3 but none of the others that are part of this thread. The only other one is I bought a Valab and did the mods to it and gave it to my dad. I've sold the Cosecant and now have a Crimson with the Denominator module.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=29149)
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Just to be fair to PS Audio, take a look at what they are saying about this thread. I have no ties to any of these DACs.
http://www.psaudio.com/ps/forum/viewthread/826/
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Well, I guess I spoke to soon. :duh: I'm getting the Tranquility DAC. I ordered the Mac Mini and looking to get external 1 or 2 TB firewire hard drive to store my music. Can anyone recommend a QUIET, RELIABLE external hard drive for the Mini?
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Didn't research it as obsessively as I do most things, but got a Cavalry drive because reviews said it didn't make much noise. And that has been my experience
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I think that the Western Digital drives have been a favorite for most.
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Thanks for the suggestion. Seems like the Iomega drives are popular too. Danny what drive do you use?
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Western Digital on Eric's recommendation.
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Didn't research it as obsessively as I do most things, but got a Cavalry drive because reviews said it didn't make much noise. And that has been my experience
The Cavalry e-SATA/USB external boxes are great, and they come with Western Digital "Green" hard drive inside :thumb:
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Thanks Danny. Can to give me the model of your WD drive? Are you satisfied with its quietness and ease of use?
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Thanks Danny. Can to give me the model of your WD drive? Are you satisfied with its quietness and ease of use?
I don't know. It is an older firewire 400 version that Eric Hider got for me. I think it is a 1T drive.
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Thanks Danny. Can to give me the model of your WD drive? Are you satisfied with its quietness and ease of use?
Their latest drives look pretty interesting.
1 TB:
http://store.westerndigital.com/store/wdus/en_US/DisplayProductDetailsPage/ThemeID.1300400/categoryID.13093300/subCategory.13433600/parid.13092300/catid.13092800
2 TB:
http://store.westerndigital.com/store/wdus/en_US/DisplayProductDetailsPage/ThemeID.1300400/categoryID.13093600/subCategory.13458600/parid.13092300/catid.13092800
Mick.
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Had a chance to try the PWT/PWD combo in my system.
Connected the PWD directly to my PMC AML1 monitors via Au24e balanced
cables.
PWT/PWD were plugged into a RSA Haley, the AML 1s were powered from a RSA Duke. All PCs were DIY Supra LoRads.
Compared the PWT connected via .5M I2S 12 and my Macbook(4g ram, SSD, WD HD FireWire)'s USB output. Used iTunes and set the audio midi output to 44.1K.
Used Kurt Elling's new live CD Dedicated to You. PWD was set to native and filter 1.
IMO, the PWT was better than the Macbook. Wider deeper soundstage with more inner details and focus.
Looking forward to trying to PWD with the Bridge.
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Hi Danny,
Just a couple questions about the mac and a couple dacs.
I'm going to order a mini soon, and am wondering if I should get the base model or the next level up with faster processor and 4G ram. I think I remember you saying the upgrade in ram made a difference.
You also mentioned the Nico dac briefly. I'm curious how the tranquility sounds in comparison. The only slight shortcoming I've read or heard about the Nico is slight dynamic compression or restiction. I'm really curious if the tranquility is better in that area, or if it also gives up a little dynamic pop to the best digital sources. Dynamics are high on my list, as well as tone, weight, detail, air, staging...haha, kind of want it all.
That being said, do you think the tranquility/mini combo is as good as the other $2.5k options out there, and significantly better than the many 1k players?
I'm also a little unclear on the wiring of dac and mini. Only 1 USB cable is used? The dac connects via USB to hard drive, and hard drive to mini with a FireWire?
I'd love to know how the wyred4sound and musical fidelity vdac would fit in. A round 2 maybe... If I get the tranquility I think there should be a couple of those in the Raleigh area, I could do a similar comparison.
Thanks,
Giyan
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Giyan,
I'd look forward to that comparison very much...
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cfcmick, I have researched those WD drives, but they will load their "smartware" onto the Mac that takes disk space and tie up resources. Worse, you can't unload the program. You can make it invisible, but it stilll is in the background like a unwanted relative who just won't leave.
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I have researched those WD drives, but they will load their "smartware" onto the Mac that takes disk space and tie up resources. Worse, you can't unload the program. You can make it invisible, but it stilll is in the background like a unwanted relative who just won't leave.
I don't know anything about that, but what I do know for sure is that playback from an external drive sounds better than an internal drive even if you are using a solid state internal drive.
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...The only slight shortcoming I've read or heard about the Nico is slight dynamic compression or restiction. I'm really curious if the tranquility is better in that area, or if it also gives up a little dynamic pop to the best digital sources. Dynamics are high on my list, as well as tone, weight, detail, air, staging...haha, kind of want it all.
Hey gprro.
I've not had any experience with the Nico but, still, maybe I can help here.
To my ears the Tranquility is, regardless of cost, one of the most dynamic DACs I've heard. Honestly, I've heard equal but I don't believe I've heard better. IMO that's saying a lot for any digital.
I judge dynamics by two criteria: Ability to startle (with large transients) and how deep I can hear into the recording (small, low level transients)
Couple of pieces of music come to mind that I use as a reference to judge this....
Having become familiar with the music and even though I know it's coming, it still startles or surprises me:
Gregorio Paniagua's "La Folia" on the Harmonia Mundi label, track 7 "Nordica et desolata / Aurea mediocritas" @ 3:59. The slap here should absolutely POP! It's subtle but there should be plenty of low end content here too.
"Further Attempts" on the MA Recordings label, track 4 "Before... After". The whole song. This is an acoustic recording and there's things happening between the musicians that are way down in the mix. Some of these things are so subtle that they almost seem like a "suggestion" while other parts of the song set up a sense of anticipation. This is a great example of low level dynamics. Lesser front ends simply miss the nuances that happen here.
Dom Um Romao's "Saudades" on the Water Lilly Acoustics label, track 4 "Lynces B". The whole song. Another acoustic recording with lots of ear candy. Dynamics play a big part in portraying the acoustic venue and the perspective of how everything relates properly. Hard to get right - the Tranquility is exceptional here.
For reference, here's RSAD's System description: RSAD Reference System (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;area=browse;system=937)
Bottom line I suppose: Within up to around $6000.00, RSAD could use any DAC I want for product development or just enjoying music with in the reference system here. I'm very content with the Tranquility. :)
So, hope that points in a good direction for you gprro.
Cheers!
Robert
RSAD
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playback from an external drive sounds better than an internal drive even if you are using a solid state internal drive.
That's true IME with both OS and music on the same drive (external vs. internal).
But do you mean OS and/or music files external vs. internal in your experience?
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Hey Robert,
Awesome that's exactly what I was looking for. Looks like it will push me in the direction of the tranquility. Completely agree on the importance of both ends of the dynamic spetrum. Until my recenct jump into analog also, and even on my modest temporary system, I havn't heard really good low level dynamics. On my analog setup it's suprisingly good. The instant loud jumps need a little help though. Sounds like the tranq can do both. Will be interesting comparing the same albums.
Thanks
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Hey, I'm new here, I'm mainly here because I'm researching an upcoming DAC purchase. While Googling the PWD this thread comes up.
After reading this entire thread about a DAC comparison that several members here have been attempting. What I have come away with after reading this thread is that the organizers are:
1) Friends of the manufacturer of the DB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC
2) Have no idea about how to compare products - (Products should be experimented with to determine their optimal configuration and then evaluated that way)
They had no clue as to how the PS Audio PWD was set up or how the many changes available effect its sound. Putting the PWD/PWT on the carpet while other units are placed on isolation shelves shows that they have no concept about vibration control and its significance in a high resolution system. I have absolutely zero doubt that the PWD was not being used to its full potential.
After reading the thread I did some research on the Tranquility DAC, It seems to be another smoke and mirrors product. The only thing that can be determined from DB Audio Labs web site is that the Tranquility has a discrete output and that it's apparently a NOS design. Specifications? We don't need no stinking specifications! As if using pastoral photos instead of photos of the inside of the equipment guarantees that it will sound more like real music. The Tranquility fails on features alone. The lack of substantive information cinches my decision to eliminate it as an option.
That being said I truly appreciate the effort, and found the comparison and this thread a worthwhile read.
Peace.
FYI = I don't own a PWD, although it's high on my short list. :D
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it's a shame all of you could not be there for our comparison. I assure you one pic of the different units sitting there does not do justice to the comparison. We are not proffessional reviewers just a group of guys that had a good time listening to these different units.
in your system maybe the outcome would have been different so be sure to arrange a comparison of different units in your own system before purchasing anything, you might be suppprised,i know I was shocked with what I heard.
On another note if the difference I heard between these units could be completely shook up just by what they are sitting on, well I don't want that piece if gear in my system.
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Yikes,
You should not dismiss the opionions of the dB DAC out of hand. There are many specific reasons that many here like the DAC. And they have a reasonable trial period that would allow you to try it in your own system, with a considerably cheaper restocking fee than DACs like the Wyred4Sound. That would allow you to see how the DAC works in your system, ultimately the most important consideration.
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I truly appreciate how difficult it is to properly compare two pieces. I actually believe that it's impossible to properly compare more than two units in a given outing. The fact that no effort was given to optimizing the PWD's configuration proves that the comparison was fundamentally flawed.
I'm not a fan of USB as a digital interface. I already own an Exemplar Audio 1.5 TB Music Server that does not use the flawed USB standard for its digital output. So I am looking for a DAC that has AES/EBU and SPDIF and will allow playback of High Resolution files (Including the 24/176.4 Reference Recordings HRx discs). The ability to play high res files in their Native rate is a major plus for the PWD. I also want Balanced outs. Take the upcoming Bridge into consideration and the PWD appears to be 1st on my list.
As far as DB Audio Labs goes; the total lack of substantive information regarding their product is off-putting. The proof is in the pudding as some would say, but I for one would at least like to know something about the pudding before I decide whether it's even worth tasting.
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What is wrong with USB?
Yes, I do own a USB DAC...Wavelength Audio Crimson with the Denominator module and couldn't be happier.
Maybe you should look at the Berkeley http://www.berkeleyaudiodesign.com/products.html for yourself
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If the DAC is using an asynchronous USB interface, it should have much less jitter than most S/PDIF interfaces. The idea is a low jitter clock in the DAC moves the data from the PC to the DAC. This idea was used in many high end DAC's with a seperate clocking interface with an S/PDIF interface from the DAC and most of these units received very good reviews along the way. The USB version should be better with higher bandwidth and low jitter clocking.
I had a PS Audio PWD as a DAC in my system without the PWT. I did not like the sound quality via either the S/PDIF or USB interfaces. I did optimize the Wolfson DAC filters and other parameters in the process. Have multiple transports here to try (Oppo and Integra) and was eventually going to a music server, so no need for a PWT. The unit went back to PS Audio.
Good luck with the DAC search.
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.....
On another note if the difference I heard between these units could be completely shook up just by what they are sitting on, well I don't want that piece if gear in my system.
SL-1800,
How to go about finding top notch components that aren't sensitive to what they sit on and how that coupling is made? I've been notably unsuccessful in finding components that don't significantly improve from some effort at coupling/isolation. I've found even very inexpensive efforts, e.g. brass cones, arrow points, 'unhappy' balls, Herbies Footers, to be quite different, somethings a significant improvement. And in a given system, the choice of isolation would, for me, determine whether I'd be happy to keep a component in my system, or rid myself of it asap.
TIA,
Paul
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Occam,
I'm sure all of those tweeks do make differences, but I have never heard it make the type of difference I heard between these units.
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I truly appreciate how difficult it is to properly compare two pieces. I actually believe that it's impossible to properly compare more than two units in a given outing. The fact that no effort was given to optimizing the PWD's configuration proves that the comparison was fundamentally flawed.
I'm not a fan of USB as a digital interface. I already own an Exemplar Audio 1.5 TB Music Server that does not use the flawed USB standard for its digital output. So I am looking for a DAC that has AES/EBU and SPDIF and will allow playback of High Resolution files (Including the 24/176.4 Reference Recordings HRx discs). The ability to play high res files in their Native rate is a major plus for the PWD. I also want Balanced outs. Take the upcoming Bridge into consideration and the PWD appears to be 1st on my list.
As far as DB Audio Labs goes; the total lack of substantive information regarding their product is off-putting. The proof is in the pudding as some would say, but I for one would at least like to know something about the pudding before I decide whether it's even worth tasting.
I see that you just joined and this is your second post? was it just to Complain? Because I don't see any value in your thread since you haven't heard the Tranquility DAC. I can speak freely about this since actually heard both side by side in my system and a friends. So as far as your pudding goes trying tasting it and stop analyzing the ingredients.
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I truly appreciate how difficult it is to properly compare two pieces. I actually believe that it's impossible to properly compare more than two units in a given outing. The fact that no effort was given to optimizing the PWD's configuration proves that the comparison was fundamentally flawed.
I'm not a fan of USB as a digital interface. I already own an Exemplar Audio 1.5 TB Music Server that does not use the flawed USB standard for its digital output. So I am looking for a DAC that has AES/EBU and SPDIF and will allow playback of High Resolution files (Including the 24/176.4 Reference Recordings HRx discs). The ability to play high res files in their Native rate is a major plus for the PWD. I also want Balanced outs. Take the upcoming Bridge into consideration and the PWD appears to be 1st on my list.
As far as DB Audio Labs goes; the total lack of substantive information regarding their product is off-putting. The proof is in the pudding as some would say, but I for one would at least like to know something about the pudding before I decide whether it's even worth tasting.
Mr. Yikes! Speaking about offputting, the tone of your posts has been terribly so for someone that is new to this forum. It would appear to the trained or untrained member (trained is BS detection) of this forum that you have a derrogatory agenda that is counter to the discussion.
The USB interface is not as inherently flawed as you would lead some to believe or believe yourself. SPDIF sucks in comparison for integration to a computer interface and is much more difficult to implement correctly without a lot more parts. Lots of parts is a very bad thing in audio when it comes to ultimate resolution.
You infer from a couple of pictures and a bit of written description that the tests were inherently flawed to skew the results towards the Tranquility thereby calling the reviewer's integrity into question. This is a poor move on your part unless all you want to do here is pick crap with everyone.
You make a judgement about a product of which you really know less than little other than what you think. Again, either the naiivity of the uninitiated (inexperienced) or the tactics of an assassin. Curious.
I have been building, listening to and comparing DACs to my reference of some years, a Cary 306-200. Not a shabby unit. I am a friend of Eric Hider's, Danny Richie and some of the other culprits involved in the DAC shootout. That does not prevent me from telling them exactly what I think about their products... good or bad. I have earned that right with them and expect the same from them about my products because I want to build the best product that I can for the dollar. I'm not afraid to tell someone that I know and respect that what they are doing sounds less than stellar... to me. Today at the Lone Star Audio Fest I bought a Tranquility DAC from Eric, not because he is a friend, but because after building and auditioning DACs for a year it sounded the best to me for use with my new media computer.
Listen, at least, before you judge. That is the right thing to do. Judgemental dismissal with no data is not very edifying to the rest of us in this discussion.
Dave
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Mr. Yikes! Speaking about offputting, the tone of your posts has been terribly so for someone that is new to this forum. It would appear to the trained or untrained member (trained is BS detection) of this forum that you have a derrogatory agenda that is counter to the discussion.
Mr. Yikes was my Dad, I'm just Yikes :D In my first post I said "I truly appreciate the effort, and found the comparison and this thread a worthwhile read." Did I also criticize the comparisons methodology, yes. It was flawed for two reasons, both of which I stated, and both of which are true. No effort was made to find which mode of the PWD sounded best thereby making the evaluation of the PWD faulty. From reading the entire thread (which I did before posting) it was also obvious that several of the participants are personal friends of the manufacturer of the Winner (Which is true).
Still the comparison piqued my curiosity about the winner, so I decided to do a little research on it. After reading about the Tranquility I said nothing bad about your Friends DAC, I just criticized the total lack of substance (Specifications, Pictures of the build quality, actual technical descriptions) of the DAC on their web page. At no point did I ever criticize its sound quality (Which I would NEVER do without hearing it)
The USB interface is not as inherently flawed as you would lead some to believe or believe yourself. SPDIF sucks in comparison for integration to a computer interface and is much more difficult to implement correctly without a lot more parts. Lots of parts is a very bad thing in audio when it comes to ultimate resolution.
I do fully understand that asynchronous is much better, but I seriously doubt its superiority to a High Quality studio grade card such as the Lynx. I take the surge in USB DAC's to be caused more by a Build What People Want agenda than a Build What's Better agenda. Just imagine; now all these manufacturers can sell these USB DAC's that will make everyones USB equipped computer sound as good, hell!.. Better than a custom purpose built expensive PC. The only Asynchronous USB DAC that I've heard was a DAC1 and it sounded better being fed AES/EBU from a Lynx than USB with the exact same files, so I seriously doubt USB's superiority to a well done properly implemented AES/EBU or SPDIF digital output (Although it very well could be better than the SPDIF or TOS that many Motherboards and inexpensive sound cards have).
You infer from a couple of pictures and a bit of written description that the tests were inherently flawed to skew the results towards the Tranquility thereby calling the reviewer's integrity into question. This is a poor move on your part unless all you want to do here is pick crap with everyone.
You make a judgement about a product of which you really know less than little other than what you think. Again, either the naiivity of the uninitiated (inexperienced) or the tactics of an assassin. Curious.
I don't doubt they heard what they said they heard, but the fact is that there was a bias. If you can't see that being friends with the manufacturer will generate a bias then you know nothing about peoples psyche and subconscious minds.
I have been building, listening to and comparing DACs to my reference of some years, a Cary 306-200. Not a shabby unit. I am a friend of Eric Hider's, Danny Richie and some of the other culprits involved in the DAC shootout. That does not prevent me from telling them exactly what I think about their products... good or bad. I have earned that right with them and expect the same from them about my products because I want to build the best product that I can for the dollar. I'm not afraid to tell someone that I know and respect that what they are doing sounds less than stellar... to me. Today at the Lone Star Audio Fest I bought a Tranquility DAC from Eric, not because he is a friend, but because after building and auditioning DACs for a year it sounded the best to me for use with my new media computer.
I've been to dozens of shows, and I've seen it many many times. When visiting a friends room everyone will cling to whatever positive aspect that they can. Since exceedingly few rooms actually have good sound (Primarily due to show conditions) it's astounding how few negative comments are ever uttered. It's a polite Lie; very similar to when a Man tells his wife that the Jeans don't make her butt look big. You're being disingenuous if you claim that you always tell the truth. In addition because a person is "Friends" with a manufacturer there is a predisposition to favor a product. I'm not saying that anyone lied, just that there was a bias.
Listen, at least, before you judge. That is the right thing to do. Judgemental dismissal with no data is not very edifying to the rest of us in this discussion.
Dave
It's late and I'm tired but the only Judging that I did was that I first determined that the Tranquility DAC doesn't have the features that I require and that its web site is lacking of any technical substance. Based upon the comparison if I were looking for a USB DAC I'd be sure to check out the Tranquility DAC, but I'm not. Then why even post about it? Because I'd hope that db Audio Labs might read my post and realize that many potential customers expect a little more technical information than they provide.
That's it. I didn't call the comparison rigged, I called some of the participants Biased, there's a huge difference.
Sorry I came in and offended your little clique. It was not my intent. The thread was interesting and I was just commenting on what I read.
Peace Out
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I truly appreciate how difficult it is to properly compare two pieces. I actually believe that it's impossible to properly compare more than two units in a given outing. The fact that no effort was given to optimizing the PWD's configuration proves that the comparison was fundamentally flawed.
I have to agree that it's tough to analyze more than two pieces of equipment like DACs at one sitting. When I was comparing my modified squeezebox and various DACs, I only compared two at once. For a comparison between my modified SB and a tube-based CDP, I listened to one part of one song probably 30 times (on each system) before I chose a winner (the modified SB) for that test. I also ensured that (to the extent possible) I used the same interconnects for each interface. I also took measurements using a meter to ensure that each device was at the same level. This also required that I adjust volume when I electronically switched between components, as two different components can have vastly different output levels. I think it would be quite tough to try this for many DACs at one sitting.
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Yikes, you said that the only async USB DAC you heard was a DAC1. Do you mean the Benchmark DAC1? If so, it is not an async USB DAC. There are still only a handful of these, and the Benchmark is not one of them.
It would certainly be unfair to paint async USB as inferior to AES and SPDIF using the Benchmark DAC1 as your example.
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I'd put my async USB dac against any...
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I do fully understand that asynchronous is much better, but I seriously doubt its superiority to a High Quality studio grade card such as the Lynx.
Hey, Welcome to the Audio Circle.
As far as the asynchronous USB thing, I wouldn't worry about it too much since the DB Audio DAC's USB is not asynchronous anyway.
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Yikes,
If you look through the Tranquility DAC thread (below) I think you'll find that Eric at DB Audio is more than forthcoming with info when asked and that many a skeptic were quickly converted once they'd actually HEARD it :green: :green: :green:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=74816.0
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Well hello Yikes.
You really went out there on a limb in your very first posts there didn't you? It sure makes it look like you have an axe to grind.
I am afraid you have made some false assumptions.
One involving the basics of the formats themselves. You clearly have some learning left to do there, but I am not going to beat you up over it.
The second false assumption is regarding the people that spent their time giving you this information. To me this was slightly out of line. You obviously don't know anything about me or the people that were present for the subjective comparisons.
No, it was in no way flawed, but I'll still respond to your accusations.
It was flawed for two reasons, both of which I stated, and both of which are true.
1) Friends of the manufacturer of the DB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC
That won't get you anywhere with me. If you knew me at all then you know that I tell it like it is regardless. The fact that I have become friends with Eric makes it even tougher for him. For that reason I was even less forth coming with praise for his product in some regards. In most cases comparisons were even more lopsided that it sounds from our descriptions.
If you knew the people in that room then you'd know that their credibility is unquestionable. Not only were the members of the listening panel discerning listeners with ears that I trust, but each one of them are also good personal friends of mine. So I take exception to questioning their character.
Likewise, the same can be said for Eric Hider from db Labs. If he wasn't a man of high ethical standard then I wouldn't be choosing to exhibit with him at an audio show like I just did this past weekend. And I bet any customer that has witnessed Eric's level of customer service will confirm him to be a guy to go the extra mile for his customers in areas well outside of just the DAC that he sells.
2) Have no idea about how to compare products - (Products should be experimented with to determine their optimal configuration and then evaluated that way)
This is also a false assumption. Companies regularly send me product for my comparative observations. I have even hosted several product comparisons for on line magazines in the past. My system is even considered by some to be above reference level in many regards.
And for what its worth, any small tweaks that we didn't do were not going to be make or break determining factors. The differences that we heard were not subtle in most cases. And any setting changes on the PS Audio unit that could have been changed during the evaluation will be slight compared to the other DAC's. I don't think they have any settings for making it sound like crap. No setting change or isolation device is going to take it from being no better than an imported $600 Onix DAC or $150 Music Streamer to being the best DAC in the world. In fact, using it with its CD player/transport/data buffer or whatever you call it, never did sound good to me, and it was also a pain in the rear to use. Hooking it up to the Mac Mini made it a completely different animal. To be honest, that really doesn't say a lot for it, but hey, if you are looking for a bunch of features with whistles and bells then maybe it is for you.
I highly recommend you make your own listening comparisons.
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Mr Yikes son.....I concur with Hal's findings above and reported that and more in the original shootout thread. All SPDIF inputs were compromised, thin, and anything but analog sounding. Using the PWD as a preamp, as suggested by the mfg, only exacerbated this weakness. when Cullen and the likes roll out upgrades, those costs and the degree of modification, will validate these findings. They're betting the bank, and this was and still is a DAC product sold with a "promise", that it will be the holy grail with the I2S inputted bridge. The jury is still out, about a year to date, if it merely emulates the sound inputted from it's matching transport, it is compromised in my listening experience. The burned file removes the clock, SPDIF adds it back, NOS DACs take advantage of a good thing, sound cards removed.
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Quote:
"Well hello Yikes. You really went out there on a limb in your very first posts there didn't you? It sure makes it look like you have an axe to grind."
Yep, it sure does! :( :( :(
Quote:
"And I bet any customer that has witnessed Eric's level of customer service will confirm him to be a guy to go the extra mile for his customers in areas well outside of just the DAC that he sells."
I don't even own a Tranquility yet (due ONLY to the fact that I don't have the funds right now) but Eric, nonetheless, has been VERY helpful and has promptly replied to several emails and offered great advice and, as I've already stated, I'm not even a customer yet! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Quote:
"I don't think they (PS audio) have any settings for making it sound like crap."
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Classic, mate!
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I've been to dozens of shows, and I've seen it many many times. When visiting a friends room everyone will cling to whatever positive aspect that they can. Since exceedingly few rooms actually have good sound (Primarily due to show conditions) it's astounding how few negative comments are ever uttered. It's a polite Lie; very similar to when a Man tells his wife that the Jeans don't make her butt look big. You're being disingenuous if you claim that you always tell the truth. In addition because a person is "Friends" with a manufacturer there is a predisposition to favor a product. I'm not saying that anyone lied, just that there was a bias.
It's late and I'm tired but the only Judging that I did was that I first determined that the Tranquility DAC doesn't have the features that I require and that its web site is lacking of any technical substance. Based upon the comparison if I were looking for a USB DAC I'd be sure to check out the Tranquility DAC, but I'm not. Then why even post about it? Because I'd hope that db Audio Labs might read my post and realize that many potential customers expect a little more technical information than they provide.
That's it. I didn't call the comparison rigged, I called some of the participants Biased, there's a huge difference.
Sorry I came in and offended your little clique. It was not my intent. The thread was interesting and I was just commenting on what I read.
Peace Out
OK. Show me a man that says he always tells the truth and I'll show you a liar, no doubt. I didn't say that. I will always give my honest opinion about a piece of audio gear, though. I'm very direct about this kind of thing and I'm married to Gayle, not the audiogeek. She does have kind of a big butt, but I like her just fine that way. Yes, I tell her when she asks. We, too, have an honest relationship. It happens when someone has been together as long as we have and been through what we have together. I think that you understand my direct nature by now.
I agree with the Polite Lie syndrome that is prevalent among audiophools. You have obviously not met Gary Dodd, Danny Richie or Eric Hider. They understand the value and NECESSITY for open, honest feedback when developing a product. Their lives depend upon it as does mine. We all fall in the "tell me what you really think, not what you think I want to hear" camp. There are actually manufacturers (mostly the small ones, I believe) that possess very high intellectual and professional ethics. To lump everytone into the Polite Lie group is, as you say, disingenuous at best.
I appreciate your candor in your posts. I don't find them mean spirited per se, but do find it odd that your only posts were extremely critical and that you made some leaps of judgement without knowing either the product or the players.
Personally, I would love to meet you and have you over to my home and let you listen to the Tranquility (when I do get it) as well as a handful of other DACs and let you be the judge in a setting that lends itself to that atmosphere. If you are ever in Albuquerque, New Mexico don't hesitate in shooting me a PM and we'll get together and have a real discussion, not one that is depersonalized by the vagueness of the internet.
Besides, I guarantee that you will like our "little clique" if you get to know us 8)
Again, like you said, Peace Ot...........................
Dave
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I didn' accuse anyone, I made the observation that there was Bias. If you can't understand how being "Friends" with a manufacturer can cause bias then it's useless even discussing it. Simply put, when a friend makes a product it's natural to want that product to be better than its competition. This simple desire causes bias, there's no way it can't. At no point did I say that this bias effected the outcome, just that there was a bias and that it could have influenced the outcome.
In interest of full disclosure I have now purchased a PWD, so I now have a bias (Because we all want our toys to sound good). PS Audio does not walk on water. As an example I disagree with their "Don't use a preamp" with the PWD. IME using any digital volume attenuation negatively impacts the sound. Your discounting of the significance of the various Sampling and Filter options of the PWD and not even trying them is another example of your bias (I've gathered that many here eschew complex features such as the sampling rate and filter options available on the PWD).
My PWD should be here on Thursday, so after about two weeks of break-in I'll begin to experiment with the PWD's many setup options. I've heard the PWD on several occasions, it was good enough that between its sound quality and its features I finally decided to buy one, but in no way do I have the measure of this DAC. It takes at least a week of use (Post Break-in in my own system) to even begin to get the measure of any high performance piece of equipment. It's one problem with such comparisons. There is no thought to system synergy and optimization. The comparison is a tiny snapshot of opinions in one system, on one day. IME unless a person is intimately familiar with a system it's impossible to hear all of the nuance to make a truly valid judgment.
I would suggest a comparison where two or three DAC's are sent to each reviewers homes for a week or two, where each reviewer can listen to them in their own system (That they know best) and come to their own opinions in isolation. This would be an eminently more useful comparison. Instead of one snapshot in one system on one day without isolation (I assume that there was some discussion as the day progressed. People are easily swayed by other peoples opinions) sending the equipment instead to each reviewer would provide multiple snapshots.
In any case I'm done in this thread. I feel that I've been attempting to talk to a Choir (and I'm an Atheist).
Later
Dave, Thanks for the invite. In person there are few Audiofools (I'm an Audiofool) that I don't get along with. On the internet people become much more opinionated and brash, then when you meet them they become much more agreeable. I am not a shrinking violet (Is that the expression?). I am a self confessed curmudgeon. If you don't like me on-line, you won't in person. :) That being said I'm known the world over as a nice guy.
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Dave, Thanks for the invite. In person there are few Audiofools (I'm an Audiofool) that I don't get along with. On the internet people become much more opinionated and brash, then when you meet them they become much more agreeable. I am not a shrinking violet (Is that the expression?). I am a self confessed curmudgeon. If you don't like me on-line, you won't in person. :) That being said I'm known the world over as a nice guy.
I made that invitation in all sincerity. I wouldn't have if I didn't mean it. Don't let the fact that I'm a Christian slow you down, either. Not my place to judge a man's heart. I have enough trouble with my own.
There should be a 12 step program for audiogeeks like us... oh, wait: there is - posting on any audio forum.
One thing, though: I'm not sure there is enough room for two curmudgeons on this forum. They already have me :eyebrows:
I'll be very interested in your opinion of the PWD. When I had one in my home it didn't come up to the level of my Cary 306. It was good, as I have stated elsewhere, but just not excellent in my system which was admittedly optimized for the Cary.
Regards,
Dave
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Mr Yikes son.....I concur with Hal's findings above and reported that and more in the original shootout thread. All SPDIF inputs were compromised, thin, and anything but analog sounding. Using the PWD as a preamp, as suggested by the mfg, only exacerbated this weakness. when Cullen and the likes roll out upgrades, those costs and the degree of modification, will validate these findings. They're betting the bank, and this was and still is a DAC product sold with a "promise", that it will be the holy grail with the I2S inputted bridge. The jury is still out, about a year to date, if it merely emulates the sound inputted from it's matching transport, it is compromised in my listening experience. The burned file removes the clock, SPDIF adds it back, NOS DACs take advantage of a good thing, sound cards removed.
tasar-
If you didn't like the PWD, how come you bought two of them?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=74994.msg704449#msg704449
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Maybe he wanted a different color, and then got tired of waiting for the ever delayed Bridge. I can tell you that if I purchased one with the promise of a Bridge in a few months and close to a year later I was still waiting I'd be a little pissed.
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I have been building, listening to and comparing DACs to my reference of some years, a Cary 306-200. Not a shabby unit.
I'm curious how the Tranquility DAC compares to your Cary 306/200. I just sold my Cary in anticipation of going to a PC-based solution, and have the Tranquility on my short list (depending in part on how I configure the system and what inputs I will require).
Obviously any comparison will have more variables than just the DACs since the Cary doesn't do USB and the tranquility doesn't do SPDIF... but any insight you can provide would be most welcome.
Gotta say, I'm really missing the Cary 306/200 since I am now relegated to listening to my Squeezebox directly.
Thanks.
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I'm also wondering if anyone has done any comparisons using a mac mini to access music via network (wired ethernet in my case). I see in past posts that external hard drives are preferred for many over internal... perhaps pulling the music from a remote computer has similar benefits?
Oh - and THANKS! for the great efforts all have made to conduct this shoot out, I've found most :D of the posts very beneficial.
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FYI, I spent several days listening to each of the DAC's prior to the comparison. Several, like the Onix and the Neko DAC spent a week or so in my system.
Settings on the PS Audio were what was recommended by the owner.
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I'm not sure there is enough room for two curmudgeons on this forum. They already have me :eyebrows:
As Yosemite Sam would say: Hold on there, varmint! This curmudgeon predates you. :)
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I'm curious how the Tranquility DAC compares to your Cary 306/200. I just sold my Cary in anticipation of going to a PC-based solution, and have the Tranquility on my short list (depending in part on how I configure the system and what inputs I will require).
Obviously any comparison will have more variables than just the DACs since the Cary doesn't do USB and the tranquility doesn't do SPDIF... but any insight you can provide would be most welcome.
Gotta say, I'm really missing the Cary 306/200 since I am now relegated to listening to my Squeezebox directly.
Thanks.
You are exactly where I am. We be Bruthas! Remember that what I am saying is filtered through 62 year old ears, but that still makes the playing field level, at least on my end. I have been grudgingly moving into the computer audio domain and it has been a real trip. I have listened to and fiddled with a lot of stuff during this journey and I do not make moves quickly. I know that Analog is still King, but can't tolerate the volumetric spatial demands of vinyl storage, much less the cost of a good front end.
What I hear with the NOS Tranquility DAC has a lot in common with the character of analog. I can't quite wrap my old gray head around it, but there is a sense of continuity... of flow to the music that the Tranquility translates that I like. It is very different from the Cary in that regard. The Cary has 8 Burr Brown PCM 1704u DACs and the Tranquility has that one little DACwithnoname and it sounds.... well, to me at least, more musical than the Cary. Does it have the 'detail' (attach to that what you want) of the Cary? I'm not sure, yet. It does have that whispered "listen to me" quality that I like, as I have said before. From what I have heard I can hardly wait to get it here, in my home, hooked up to my new computer based system to hear what it really does. I'll report back.
Dave
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"What I hear with the NOS Tranquility DAC has a lot in common with the character of analog. I can't quite wrap my old gray head around it, but there is a sense of continuity... of flow to the music that the Tranquility translates that I like."
Dear Dave-
Maybe you should look for a smaller DAC, to fit the gray you have left. ;-)
(http://)
A hui hou!
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Dave, my system begins with you, dunnit. I loves my system.
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I thought some of you might be interested in a demonstration/shoot-out that we had this past weekend at the monthly meeting of the Audio-Video Club of Atlanta. The main purpose of the demo was to show the differences between standard red book digital and high resolution digital, i.e. 24/96-24/192. Different souces were chosen to show that you can get into high rez without spending a whole lot of money. Sources included Oppo Blue Ray player, the SE version of that player, a Benchmark DAC-1, and the PS Audio PWT/PWD combo. My main concern before the meeting was, would we be able to hear the differences in red book and high rez, and the differences in the different sources, in a large room with 30-40 people in it. The system included an AR tube pre-amp, an EAR tube amp, and a pair of the new Vandersteen 2c Signature II's. A disc was made for each source of the cuts that were going to be played, so it was just a matter of switching inputs on the pre-amp to hear the cut on a different source. All sources were volume matched as close as possible before starting. After the first cut had been played on all sources, it was clear that not only were we able to hear the difference in the red book and high rez versions of the same song, but also each source had a sound that was different from the others. The music cuts ranged from classical, jazz, and rock to show that all types of music are available in high rez. After all the cuts were played, the group was asked to pick their favorite source, and more highrez music would be played on that system. There were some interesting choices. Some chose the standard Oppo over the SE version. Go figure. The winner by a large margin was the PWT/PWD combo. I heard several comments later that it was not close. A lot of people picked the PWD being driven by one of the OPPO's as a transport as their second choice, but they were surprised that the PWD did not sound as good with the Oppo as it did with the PWT. They said the the PWT really made the PWD sound so much better.
The meeting was quite enjoyable, and was proof to a lot of skeptics that differences can be heard, sometimes easily, between equipment types and software. As I told a lot of people afterwards, if you can hear a difference in an environment like that, the difference would be magnified in a smaller home setting.
Thanks,
Stu
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Stu,
Thanks for that info about the demonstration. Can you say a little about the differences in the compared components' sound? That may be more helpful to us than just learning what the favorite was.
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"What I hear with the NOS Tranquility DAC has a lot in common with the character of analog. I can't quite wrap my old gray head around it, but there is a sense of continuity... of flow to the music that the Tranquility translates that I like."
Dear Dave-
Maybe you should look for a smaller DAC, to fit the gray you have left. ;-)
(http://)
A hui hou!
Oh, man... it looks like I'm napping. I was actually dreaming of the "perfect system". Kind of a nightmare, actually. It never ended, I'm still in that dream.
Dan, you know that I like this picture better, even if my hair is long and unruly:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=30586)
You can take the boy out of rock and roll, but you can't take rock and roll out of the old geezer. Now, if I could just keep the arthritis at bay all would be well.
Dave
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Dave, my system begins with you, dunnit. I loves my system.
Great meeting you at LSAF, Jim. I had too much fun and look forward to it next year. My cheeks still hurt from laughing and smiling.
I'm glad that you like your BUSS. Gotta have good A/C to have a good system, eh?
See you next year!
Dave
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I thought some of you might be interested in a demonstration/shoot-out that we had this past weekend at the monthly meeting of the Audio-Video Club of Atlanta. The main purpose of the demo was to show the differences between standard red book digital and high resolution digital, i.e. 24/96-24/192. Different souces were chosen to show that you can get into high rez without spending a whole lot of money. Sources included Oppo Blue Ray player, the SE version of that player, a Benchmark DAC-1, and the PS Audio PWT/PWD combo. My main concern before the meeting was, would we be able to hear the differences in red book and high rez, and the differences in the different sources, in a large room with 30-40 people in it. The system included an AR tube pre-amp, an EAR tube amp, and a pair of the new Vandersteen 2c Signature II's. A disc was made for each source of the cuts that were going to be played, so it was just a matter of switching inputs on the pre-amp to hear the cut on a different source. All sources were volume matched as close as possible before starting. After the first cut had been played on all sources, it was clear that not only were we able to hear the difference in the red book and high rez versions of the same song, but also each source had a sound that was different from the others. The music cuts ranged from classical, jazz, and rock to show that all types of music are available in high rez. After all the cuts were played, the group was asked to pick their favorite source, and more highrez music would be played on that system. There were some interesting choices. Some chose the standard Oppo over the SE version. Go figure. The winner by a large margin was the PWT/PWD combo. I heard several comments later that it was not close. A lot of people picked the PWD being driven by one of the OPPO's as a transport as their second choice, but they were surprised that the PWD did not sound as good with the Oppo as it did with the PWT. They said the the PWT really made the PWD sound so much better.
The meeting was quite enjoyable, and was proof to a lot of skeptics that differences can be heard, sometimes easily, between equipment types and software. As I told a lot of people afterwards, if you can hear a difference in an environment like that, the difference would be magnified in a smaller home setting.
Thanks,
Stu
Can you comment on the differences between hi-rez vs. redbook from the same source?
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it was clear that not only were we able to hear the difference in the red book and high rez versions of the same song, but also each source had a sound that was different from the others.
Thanks for sharing. A proper comparison between 16/44.1 and 24/96 (better yet 176.4, 192) of the same song on a revealing system can be a disgusting experience, as one quickly realizes 99% of his CD collection needs immediate update to Hi Res.
This is also why it bothers me when some people claim 16/44.1-limited spdif or USB implementation is "good enough." :scratch:
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Thanks for sharing. A proper comparison between 16/44.1 and 24/96 (better yet 176.4, 192) of the same song on a revealing system can be a disgusting experience, as one quickly realizes 99% of his CD collection needs immediate update to Hi Res.
This is also why it bothers me when some people claim 16/44.1-limited spdif or USB implementation is "good enough." :scratch:
If it doesn't bother them, why should it bother you? :scratch: Not saying you're wrong whatsoever but I say live and let live. It's about individual musical enjoyment and no one should scrutinize anothers perogatives. Worry about your own glass house Jon and let others take care of their own palace. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
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Maybe version 2.0 will address high rez.
I've always preferred NOS dacs. However, it's been many years since I had a dac comparo.
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In response to Yikes comments:
I attended the LSAF specifically to hear the Tranquility DAC to see what all the hoopla was about. I have never personally met Eric Hider before this event, although I have talked to him about his DAC over the phone before the event. So I can't consider myself a friend of Eric, and I have no loyalty to him or his company. I have heard the PS Audio PWD/PWT at last years RMAF in their own room. I recall that PS gear was very clean and clear sounding and was seriously considering the PWD with their soon to be released NAS music library. However, a friend of mine whose ears I trust turned me onto the Tranquility. Bottom line, I'm glad I got the Tranquility. It does several things so right that PS gear lacks. Mainly, the decay of instruments is so analogue like on the Tranquility but digital on the PS. The timbre of the instruments is noticeably more natural on the Traquility. The separation of intruments is very similar between the two. I think the soundstage may be wider on the Tranquility but I would have to do a direct comparison. The PS is squeaky clean almost to a fault. Well, it's all my opinion based on my aural recollection, but don't take this too seriously like all opinions on this thread. Last thing, Eric is a very ethical guy and one of the most helpful people I have met in this hobby. He actually opened up his DAC and showed me the technology that went into the DAC. I have to say it is one of the most elegant designs I have seen. For each component in the chain, he was able to explain why it was chosen based on sound engineering and blinded listening tests. That's all she wrote.
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In response to Yikes comments:
I attended the LSAF specifically to hear the Tranquility DAC to see what all the hoopla was about. I have never personally met Eric Hider before this event, although I have talked to him about his DAC over the phone before the event. So I can't consider myself a friend of Eric, and I have no loyalty to him or his company. I have heard the PS Audio PWD/PWT at last years RMAF in their own room. I recall that PS gear was very clean and clear sounding and was seriously considering the PWD with their soon to be released NAS music library. However, a friend of mine whose ears I trust turned me onto the Tranquility. Bottom line, I'm glad I got the Tranquility. It does several things so right that PS gear lacks. Mainly, the decay of instruments is so analogue like on the Tranquility but digital on the PS. The timbre of the instruments is noticeably more natural on the Traquility. The separation of intruments is very similar between the two. I think the soundstage may be wider on the Tranquility but I would have to do a direct comparison. The PS is squeaky clean almost to a fault. Well, it's all my opinion based on my aural recollection, but don't take this too seriously like all opinions on this thread. Last thing, Eric is a very ethical guy and one of the most helpful people I have met in this hobby. He actually opened up his DAC and showed me the technology that went into the DAC. I have to say it is one of the most elegant designs I have seen. For each component in the chain, he was able to explain why it was chosen based on sound engineering and blinded listening tests. That's all she wrote.
There you have it in a nutshell.
Dave
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Dracule1 that was very informative post, I too had the chance to glance under the hood of the Tranquility, very nice and clean.
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Dracule1 that was very informative post, I too had the chance to glance under the hood of the Tranquility, very nice and clean.
Was it "one of the most elegant designs" you've ever seen?
If Eric was willing to lift his skirt at LSAF, why aren't there under the hood pictures on his website that the rest of us can see? 8)
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My understanding is it will soon be revealed on one of the online magazines. I can understand why
Eric has been reluctant to show the innerds on online discussion forums. Based on this thread alone, the naive will make a judgement on how a DAC sounds just based on parts alone without even having listened to the unit.
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My understanding is it will soon be revealed on one of the online magazines. I can understand why
Eric has been reluctant to show the innerds on online discussion forums. Based on this thread alone, the naive will make a judgement on how a DAC sounds just based on parts alone without even having listened to the unit.
Or someone will say that there aren't "enough parts" to justify the pricepoint without knowing what they are and the software involved. Those that have never manufactured anything have no clue as to the actual cost of an item. :scratch:
Dave
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My understanding is it will soon be revealed on one of the online magazines. I can understand why
Eric has been reluctant to show the innerds on online discussion forums. Based on this thread alone, the naive will make a judgement on how a DAC sounds just based on parts alone without even having listened to the unit.
Surely you're not suggesting that someone actually listen to something in order to offer an opinion as to how it sounds? That would be preposterous.
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Surely you're not suggesting that someone actually listen to something in order to offer an opinion as to how it sounds? That would be preposterous.
Oh, no. It is much easier to make assumptions and determine the value and sound of a piece of gear using our own ignorance as a benchmark. It takes less effort and allows one to pontificate with impunity.
Dave
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You are exactly where I am. We be Bruthas!
Clearly... Based on your post in the Tranquility DAC review thread, like you, I also preferred my Cary 306/200 in native mode. I never used the 24/192 upsampling. I'm really looking forward to your impressions of the Tranquility. Trying to decide whether to give the W4S or this one a try.
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Clearly... Based on your post in the Tranquility DAC review thread, like you, I also preferred my Cary 306/200 in native mode. I never used the 24/192 upsampling. I'm really looking forward to your impressions of the Tranquility. Trying to decide whether to give the W4S or this one a try.
Yup. It was a bit too hard sounding upsampled and sounded much more natural @ 44.1. Sounded really good there.
I haven't heard the W4S. I know lots of people like their products. I'm sure that they are sharing technology with PS Audio since Andy Cullen manufactures a lot of the PS Audio gear. Not a bad thing. Cullen is very bright and does good work.
The Tranquility has that effortless, open sound that has me looking no farther, though.
Dave
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Was it "one of the most elegant designs" you've ever seen?
If Eric was willing to lift his skirt at LSAF, why aren't there under the hood pictures on his website that the rest of us can see? 8)
Or could it be that Eric and DB Audio have managed to come up with a TRULY original design that goes against the grain of the generally accepted design theories of current manufacturers (Emerald Physics anyone) and that they would prefer to protect their design until they have established some kind of foothold in the market?! :green: :green: :green:
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Oh, no. It is much easier to make assumptions and determine the value and sound of a piece of gear using our own ignorance as a benchmark. It takes less effort and allows one to pontificate with impunity.
Dave
You boys funny.
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You boys funny.
:jester:
We be tryin'......................... :dance:
Dave
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Or could it be that Eric and DB Audio have managed to come up with a TRULY original design that goes against the grain of the generally accepted design theories of current manufacturers (Emerald Physics anyone) and that they would prefer to protect their design until they have established some kind of foothold in the market?! :green: :green: :green:
And it could be that there's nothing "TRULY original" inside. 8)
Do you think Eric and his team know more about designing DACs, than Metric Halo, EMM Labs, Pacific Microsonics, MSB Technology, Berkeley Audio Design, Weiss Engineering, dCS, Ayre, Wadia, Spectral, Nova Physics Group, Playback Designs and Wavelength Audio just to name a few?
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I haven't heard the W4S. I know lots of people like their products. I'm sure that they are sharing technology with PS Audio since Andy Cullen manufactures a lot of the PS Audio gear. Not a bad thing. Cullen is very bright and does good work.
Actually Rick Cullen. I'm not sure that they are are manufacturing PS Audio gear anymore (since the GCC/GCA and Trio lines ended and they moved their manufacturing off-shore). The new W4S DAC2 is quite a bit different from the PS Audio DAC (different chip and async USB on the W4S to name a couple... I think the only thing in common is really the I2S interface, which PS Audio published for public use). I definitely like Rick's stuff as I have a PS Audio GCC-100 that was modified by him.
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And it could be that there's nothing "TRULY original" inside. 8)
Do you think Eric and his team know more about designing DACs, than Metric Halo, EMM Labs, Pacific Microsonics, MSB Technology, Berkeley Audio Design, Weiss Engineering, dCS, Ayre, Wadia, Spectral, Nova Physics Group, Playback Designs and Wavelength Audio just to name a few?
Apparently Eric and his design team does just look at the review here on AC.
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And it could be that there's nothing "TRULY original" inside. 8)
Do you think Eric and his team know more about designing DACs, than Metric Halo, EMM Labs, Pacific Microsonics, MSB Technology, Berkeley Audio Design, Weiss Engineering, dCS, Ayre, Wadia, Spectral, Nova Physics Group, Playback Designs and Wavelength Audio just to name a few?
JHM,
I was referring more to the synergy of the parts they're using rather than the parts themselves. At the end of the day, mate, it all comes down to what a piece SOUNDS like regardless of who the manufacturer is and I've yet to hear anyone who's actually heard the Tranquility have anything but good things to say about it. Surely that says something. :thumb:
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Do you think Eric and his team know more about designing DACs, than Metric Halo, EMM Labs, Pacific Microsonics, MSB Technology, Berkeley Audio Design, Weiss Engineering, dCS, Ayre, Wadia, Spectral, Nova Physics Group, Playback Designs and Wavelength Audio just to name a few?
When they out perform all of them I must conclude that they have figured something out.
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:D it's all about the sound,and he gives you 30 days to give it a listen-see :D
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When they out perform all of them I must conclude that they have figured something out.
And it could be that there's nothing "TRULY original" inside. 8)
Do you think Eric and his team know more about designing DACs, than Metric Halo, EMM Labs, Pacific Microsonics, MSB Technology, Berkeley Audio Design, Weiss Engineering, dCS, Ayre, Wadia, Spectral, Nova Physics Group, Playback Designs and Wavelength Audio just to name a few?
Danny-
Are you saying that you have listened to this DAC Vs. all the dacs listed above?
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Actually Rick Cullen. I'm not sure that they are are manufacturing PS Audio gear anymore (since the GCC/GCA and Trio lines ended and they moved their manufacturing off-shore). The new W4S DAC2 is quite a bit different from the PS Audio DAC (different chip and async USB on the W4S to name a couple... I think the only thing in common is really the I2S interface, which PS Audio published for public use). I definitely like Rick's stuff as I have a PS Audio GCC-100 that was modified by him.
I have no idea where I pulled "Andy" from... I was sitting down at the time. I know that he and Paul are good friends. There has to be some give and take at the very least. We all learn from one another in this world.
Like I said, Rick does very good work.
I think that asynchronous is the best way to do the interface. I don't understand why PS Audio didn't adopt it for their PWD. Then again, I don't understand a lot of things.
Dave
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Do you think Eric and his team know more about designing DACs, than Metric Halo, EMM Labs, Pacific Microsonics, MSB Technology, Berkeley Audio Design, Weiss Engineering, dCS, Ayre, Wadia, Spectral, Nova Physics Group, Playback Designs and Wavelength Audio just to name a few?
No, but I do believe that they have the computer/USB/DAC interface figured out as good as or better than anything that I've ever heard... and I've heard quite a few different DACs. The only ones that I've heard that I like as much are the Wavelengths. I don't have a Wavelength budget. Besides, I like them both for different reasons.
Dave
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I don't have a Wavelength budget.
Dave
The Wavelength Proton is $900. Next is the Brick at $1750 and they go up from there.
http://usbdacs.com/Products/Products.html
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I have no idea where I pulled "Andy" from... I was sitting down at the time. I know that he and Paul are good friends. There has to be some give and take at the very least. We all learn from one another in this world.
Dave
I can see how that could happen,, I've always thought of you as being a "Paul" Dave. :lol: Thanks for making me feel not so alone Dave. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
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The Wavelength Proton is $900. Next is the Brick at $1750 and they go up from there.
http://usbdacs.com/Products/Products.html
I know, but the ones that I liked were a tad more expensive.
Dave
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I can see how that could happen,, I've always thought of you as being a "Paul" Dave. :lol: Thanks for making me feel not so alone Dave. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
No problem, Mortimer. :lol:
Paul,,, er... Dave
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I know, but the ones that I liked were a tad more expensive.
Dave
:scratch: I've owned the Cosecant V3 and now the Crimson and have heard them all. Wonder what you didn't like and why.
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:scratch: I've owned the Cosecant V3 and now the Crimson and have heard them all. Wonder what you didn't like and why.
It's not that I didn't like anything. I just like the Tranquility more in the price range that I have now. I really liked my Cary 306 at the time I was hearing other DACs and I wasn't in the market then.
The thing that I like about the Tranquility is the spatial characteristics and the microdynamics (the same thing, really). Nothing, and I mean NOTHING less than 5 grand has a handle on these characteristics as well as the T-DAC (Tranquility DAC is getting too long to type), especially with the delicacy that is just my cup-o-tea. You would never know it, but I'm into subtlety.
Dave
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Danny-
Are you saying that you have listened to this DAC Vs. all the dacs listed above?
I have compared it to some of those top units and I know of others that have compared it to some of the others. I have heard enough to know that they have figured some things out.
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I have compared it to some of those top units and I know of others that have compared it to some of the others. I have heard enough to know that they have figured some things out.
Sounds like I may need to get one in MY rig and see what I hear then. :scratch:
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I would like to thank Danny, Dave and the others for posting their comments/results of the DAC Shootout. Having now read every thread in this post I would like to post some comments:
1. I am looking for a DAC to replace the ModWright Transporter I sold a few weeks ago and cannot come up with one reason not to trial The Tranquility DAC.
a. I have traded PMs and e-mails with Eric and I have found him to be very quick to respond
and very informative.
b. Eric is offering a reasonable restocking fee if I am not satisfied with the performance.
c. I have decided to purchase a Mac Mini and have done so because of the recommendations
here and on the Computer Audio Site. The Mac Mini is approximately the same cost as the
highly regarded Lynx Sound Card some have touted you need with Spidif.
2. I had the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC in my system for a demo (thanks to
a local dealer/friend).
a. I used a Squeezebox Touch as the source and connected it to the PSA DAC by a JPS SC-3
digital cable.
b. It was a nice sounding DAC but it has features I don't need and will not use in my system.
I have not purchased the PSA DAC because I want to hear other highly regarded DACs in my
system.
At this time my only source is the Touch and I am spending very little time listening to my system. I cannot wait to bring the most out of my system and look forward to receiving the Tranquility/Mac Mini System.
Ken
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Bigfish
You'll be very happy with the Mini I think. I sure do love mine.
btw-two more weeks for the GD :thumb:
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GD?
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GD?
GD = Grill Dome http://grilldome.com/
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Anxious to hear your impression of the tranquility, especially since you already listened to the perfect wave dac in your system.
Tks in advance
Ray
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GD = Grill Dome http://grilldome.com/
They're awesome and worth the wait. Just don't smoke your DAC :green:
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btw-two more weeks for the GD
Once you get used to it you will never consider going back to a Gas Grill. :thumb:
Ken
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Anyone know if the Tranquility has inbuilt protection so that it can be plugged straight into the wall (no need for a surge protector/power conditioner)?
Thanks.
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cfcmick,
You might be better off asking on the Tranquility thread...
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Anyone know if the Tranquility has inbuilt protection so that it can be plugged straight into the wall (no need for a surge protector/power conditioner)?
Thanks.
It is expected to be plugged straight into the wall (at least initially said this)
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JTWRACE - I have the Tranquility and am very happy with it. Got it in January after reading the reviews on AC. I am also waiting for a GD which I first learned about on AC/Culinary Circle. Seems that I should stop reading this forum. Who knows what else I'll feel compelled to acquire next.
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Tranquility popped the hood at LSAF:
(http://)
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I see Mundorf Supreme caps in there. :thumb:
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I think they are using a new cap which is suppose to be better than the Mundorf Supreme. However, Eric will probably put in any cap you want as long as it fits inside the chassis. It looks elegantly simple, but there's a lot more going on in there than the picture suggests.
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It looks elegantly simple, but there's a lot more going on in there than the picture suggests.
What's going on that the picture doesn't suggest?
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I know one thing that all the pictures and anything else that you can see when looking inside won't tell you. It won't tell you of the hours and hours spent listening to and comparing circuit layout and parts selection. I know for fact that these guys spent a lot of time in R&D, and it was clearly worth the effort.
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My Tranquility/Mac Mini System now has approximately 15 hours of playing time on it and I am very happy with the sound coming from my system. Eric Hider of db Audio Labs went far beyond any of my normal expectations for customer service and spent an hour on Saturday afternoon with me on the telephone optimizing the Mac Mini for music play back.
This hobby is really about what sounds good to each of us individually. I was hesitant to try The Tranquility as there is not a lot of information about it other than what is here on AC. However, after trading PMs, talking with other owners and finally with Eric Hider I decided to try it kowning I could return it within 30 days for a $75.00 restocking fee. It is my understanding that the sound I am now hearing will continue to improve in quality for up to approximately 200 hours. Since I am already happy with the system there is no way I will be returning The Tranquility.
Some of you will not be interested in The Tranquility because it in not a "hi-rez DAC." This was not an issue for me because I do not own hi-rez files and current hi-rez selections of interest, for me, are very limited. If you have to have Hi-Rez Capability it is my understanding that db Audio Labs is working on having one available in the near future. If you are like me with limited use for hi-rez then I would suggest you trial The Tranquility in your system and form your own opinion. Based on my experience with the Tranquility and with Eric Hider, I expect your experience will be a positive one.
Ken
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Doesn't get its own thread because it was a short demo, but thought folks here would be interested. I got a chance to audition the Antelope Zodiac+ in my system this past weekend, and wow! Best DAC I have heard in my set-up. The level of detail was stunning. Lovely decay on notes, and acoustic material never sounded so effortless. Both coax and USB sounded wonderful, though no chance to really A/B them. A real contender. The Zodiac+ is out now, but there will be a non-Plus version with fewer features that will be released late this year or sometime next year. Well worth checking out!!
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And it could be that there's nothing "TRULY original" inside. 8)
I don't know Eric, so I don't have a vested interest here. But until you hear the DAC, your are uniformed. You are making rude comments about a products you haven't taken the time to hear.
This makes you come off as ignorant and annoying. Please, listen to the DAC, then come back with an informed opinion. Then, you may be worth listening to. Right now you come off as a spoiled kid looking for attention.
I was skeptical as you are, but I have gotten to hear the DAC in my system the last couple of days. It is terrific. I don't care what's inside. It could have a dead gerbil in there for all I care. What I care about is weather the sound justifies the purchase price, and weather it is a good fit in my system. The sound easily justifies the purchase price.
I had a few audio guys over for a listen last night. These guys are very knowledgeable, have great systems, etc. They loved the DAC. They stayed and listened for hours. I was shocked as these are hard core vinyl guys. Usually they will only listen to digital for a little while then want to throw on some vinyl.
Really, you would be best served to audition the DAC, THEN give your opinion. :duh:
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what system does eric use when he listens to his own dac? :thumb:
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Hi Kajak12,
To answer your inquiry:
I have three primary sound systems. The only thing they each have in common is the digital front end, which of course, is the Tranquility DAC / Essential USB Cable / Mini DuoFilter Cable / Tranquility power cord ;-)
Listed below is a basic construct of each sound system.
System #1
*Epiphany 20/21 Line arrays and Epiphany subs
Dodd Mono blocks with custom caps, custom tweaks and cryo'd NOS tubes
Custom Nickel Autoformer preamp
Ridge Street audio and custom bi-wire Reality cabling
* Ridge Street Audio Granite Sason Ltd speakers are interchanged with the Epiphany line arrays depending on both my mood and R & D listening evaluations
System #2
Legacy Whispers with Legacy Pacemaker sub
Acoustic Reality EAR monoblocks
Custom active buffer preamp
Reality Signature Cabling
System #3
Custom 2-way monitors using Scan Speak Revelator woofers and Hiquphon tweeters
Custom tweaked out high current 120 watt SS amp
Dodd Audio battery preamp with Siemens CCa tubes
Reality Signature Cabling
Cheers, Eric Hider - dB Audio Labs :thumb:
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Hi Kajak12,
To answer your inquiry:
I have three primary sound systems. The only thing they each have in common is the digital front end, which of course, is the Tranquility DAC / Essential USB Cable / Mini DuoFilter Cable / Tranquility power cord ;-)
Listed below is a basic construct of each sound system.
System #1
*Epiphany 20/21 Line arrays and Epiphany subs
Dodd Mono blocks with custom caps, custom tweaks and cryo'd NOS tubes
Custom Nickel Autoformer preamp
Ridge Street audio and custom bi-wire Reality cabling
* Ridge Street Audio Granite Sason Ltd speakers are interchanged with the Epiphany line arrays depending on both my mood and R & D listening evaluations
System #2
Legacy Whispers with Legacy Pacemaker sub
Acoustic Reality EAR monoblocks
Custom active buffer preamp
Reality Signature Cabling
System #3
Custom 2-way monitors using Scan Speak Revelator woofers and Hiquphon tweeters
Custom tweaked out high current 120 watt SS amp
Dodd Audio battery preamp with Siemens CCa tubes
Reality Signature Cabling
Cheers, Eric Hider - dB Audio Labs :thumb:
I can add that Eric has everything that Apple has ever made as far as computers go, too. Well, maybe not everything. :lol: He tells me that the newest MacMini is the deal when it comes to a music server.
I'm still trying to hold up the PC end of things with a dedicated Zotac Ion based unit :deadhorse: I haven't given up quite yet.
Dave
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I can add that Eric has everything that Apple has ever made as far as computers go, too. Well, maybe not everything. :lol: He tells me that the newest MacMini is the deal when it comes to a music server.
I'm still trying to hold up the PC end of things with a deedicated Zotac Ion based unit :deadhorse: I haven't given up quite yet.
Dave
thank you for responding
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Can't argue with Eric's systems especially because I have the Sasons as well. :thumb: :wink:
Really the guy does have reference caliber systems that has paid off in the design of the Tranquility DAC.
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Pretty amazing thread!
Quick question about the Zodiac+:
Do all of these products use the Burr Brown 1792s? (I think I read that correctly somewhere. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)
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Pretty amazing thread!
Quick question about the Zodiac+:
Do all of these products use the Burr Brown 1792s? (I think I read that correctly somewhere. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)
Correct, all models use the BurrBrown 1792-A chip. You can get more information in the underway review at 6moons: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/antelope/zodiac.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/antelope/zodiac.html)
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A couple of days ago I put in an order for the Antelope Audio Zodiac+ model, I will let you know my impressions when I have some time with it.
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A couple of days ago I put in an order for the Antelope Audio Zodiac+ model, I will let you know my impressions when I have some time with it.
Quite eager to see this as are many others I'm sure.
I was looking around and I see that Sweetwater and audimidi are starting get these and the regular Zodiacs in stock.
Burr Brown 1792-As are pretty nice chips that these units are using across the boards.
What I'm wondering is: Are these pieces really more for high end sound professionals and the like vs home use because kind of what they look like to me at least.
YMMV. :)
Great thread!
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Did you ever get the Antelope Zodiac DAC? Any impressions on the sound quality?
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FYI...looks like AudiutopiA (horen.lifeme.net) is giving a Onix DAC25 away for free :D. Just "kinda" stumbled to it... :roll:
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FYI...looks like AudiutopiA (horen.lifeme.net) is giving a Onix DAC25 away for free :D. Just "kinda" stumbled to it... :roll:
I always thought horen.lifeme was your site mobileusa?
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I always thought horen.lifeme was your site mobileusa?
notice the "rolling eyes"....
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notice the "rolling eyes"....
Ha, now I do. Thanks mobileusa.