amp shootout-what drives a pair of XRS really well (long)?

schotter · « **on:** 9 Jul 2007, 02:28 pm »

hey everybody,
Looking for a sub 2grand (hopefully) integrated that balances my setup towards a more punchy, 'richer' presentation with my hemp XRS. I did some A/Bing with the old Fostex vs the hemps (which won singlehandedly even though they do extend the highs quite a bit) and swapping components and decided to keep the speakers and go for a new amp. So far my Op amp based system does a couple of things very well but my feeling is that the XRS have similar strengths and it all ends up being very imbalanced: The emphasis is definitively on the high mids and an overall 'forwardness' and a very clear imaging. There is a lot of information up there and it's sort of 'in my face' (which can be enjoyable depending on the music) but not much 'beefyness' in the lower mids. Partly my room is to blame (large, L-shaped and empty) since I have heard all my components in other rooms (at Louis' and a some friends have very similar systems) and they always sounded 'richer' than in my home, even with supersmall entry level speakers. I have a subwoofer (TBI) so bass is kind of taken care of. With small chamber classical it's all good but overall it does not rock. On my list of 'most important' is: Liquid midrange, powerful and 'beefy' lower mids and good imaging. I like a certain 'looking into the music' feel (probably what people mean by 'holographic'). High resolution and maximum extension come least on my list and I am not overly interested in the 'blackest of black backgrounds'. I am not into 'romanticizing' equipment but I guess within my setup a certain amount of it would help.
I listen to acoustic instruments (guitars and voices) and rock/alternative at equal parts, some classic, mostly small ensemble chamber music and a bit of minimal electro beats.
What amps go along well with the hemp XRS? I am starting to look into tubes....what general sound signatures do the different kinds of tubes (...2A3, 300B, 45's) or amps (push/pull, single-ended) have? I have been looking at the Fi-X amp and like what I read but does it rock? Other interesting ones were: Almarro 318B, Onix SP3, Jolida...? Any suggestions? Anything I should stay away from?

cheers!

kai

Bill Baker · « **Reply #1 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 06:06 pm »

Hello Kai,

Based on what I read in your sonic preferences, I woudl consider looking into an EL84 based unit to go with these speakers. The EL84 will give you a sweet, realsitic midrange as well as provide you with good dynamics at the frequency extremes and a nice extended, airy upper end.

The Jolida 102B is a very good contender as it can be upgraded and taken as far your imagination desires. At 20 watts, it should be plenty. Also, if you can get away with lower wattage, the Almarro 205A MKII shoud also be looked at. Here you are dealing with 5 watts.

There are a lot of nice options out there and all of them can be had for well under $1,000 (even less if found on the used market). I am sure others will chime in with more good considerations.

ZLS · « **Reply #2 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 06:32 pm »

I agree with the previous post by Response Audio. EL 84's and Hemptones are a magical combination. I would add there is the vintage amp route (Scott, Heath, Grommes etc.) if one is so inclined.

zybar · « **Reply #3 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 06:51 pm »

If you don't go with Jolida or Almarro, what about something from Vista Audio?

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue30/vistaaudio_i84.htm

George

woodsyi · « **Reply #4 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 07:17 pm »

Quote from: Response Audio on 9 Jul 2007, 06:06 pm

Hello Kai,

Based on what I read in your sonic preferences, I would consider looking into an EL84 based unit to go with these speakers. The EL84 will give you a sweet, realistic midrange as well as provide you with good dynamics at the frequency extremes and a nice extended, airy upper end.

The Jolida 102B is a very good contender as it can be upgraded and taken as far your imagination desires. At 20 watts, it should be plenty. Also, if you can get away with lower wattage, the Almarro 205A MKII should also be looked at. Here you are dealing with 5 watts.

There are a lot of nice options out there and all of them can be had for well under $1,000 (even less if found on the used market). I am sure others will chime in with more good considerations.

We listened to a pair of Superhemps driven by Almarro 205A MKII at Merle's place Saturday -- a MAAC gathering. It was very impressive. In some ways (pace and extension) it was better than what I remember with my Wavelength Duetto which has WE 300b tubes. I think it would even be better with smaller hemps in XRS. We didn't need all of 5 watts for 8" drivers -- you shouldn't either with 4.5" hemps unless you have a humongous room.

Zero · « **Reply #5 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 07:31 pm »

I'll have to second Zybar's suggestion of investigating the Vista Audio i-84 integrated. One very special sounding piece that can really rock with those 15 watts.

Songforyou · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 07:36 pm »

I'll jump on the bandwagon if there's room.

I use a Scott 222c integrated (el84) with my fostex Super 3Rs and a pair of TBI subs. My listening tastes are quite similar to yours.

The Scott has been modified by Mapleshade (tone controls bypassed) and it is a transparent and dynamic little bugger within its power limits (Omegas are perfect). More importantly, it is a musically involving amp.

I've driven the Omegas with a Super T amp while the Scott was out for a retubing and there is no comparison. Everything was thin, dry and sterile. The magic comes from the el84 tubes. I had an immaculate Dynaco ST-70 with a Blue Circle pre which was nice, but the little Scott is much better.

The Vista looks very interesting too. Here is an additional recent reviewhttp://www.vista-audio.com/AA_review_i84.pdf

Good Luck!

chadh · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 07:49 pm »

I have the XRS speakers as well, and I'll pass along a suggestion made to me by DMason a while ago. He thought that a single ended EL34 amp putting out around 6 to 8 watts would work wonderfully with the 4.5" hemp drivers. For example, you might consider this, from Decware: http://www.decware.com/newsite/SE34I.htm

I've never heard it. I did notice that someone is selling one on the trading post right now (no affiliation): http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=42925.0

Chad

rajacat · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 07:50 pm »

Why not try a SET? http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1189125054.

Use a high pass filter so that the Hemps run off the SET and the sub won't cloud the lower midrange.

Raj

schotter · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 11:20 pm »

wow. Thanks for all the inspiration.
So sounds like EL 84 might be a good thing to try. I will probably have a chance to hear a Response Audio modified Jolida this week (nice wooden faceplate. Bill do you still make these?) . Vista Audio, Jolida 102B and Almarro 205A MKII are all amazingly reasonably priced amps. Hey Woodsyl, thanks for your real-life input. Pace is definitively appreciated and the XRS have it. How do you remember the 'beefyness' and 'slam' of the Almarro? Songforyou, with the Super 3' and the TBI subs your setup is sort of similar to mine. BTW, I also have the Fostex in ex-Omega Minuet cabinets (which are the same as Super3s in narrow baffle mode) and they do sound very nice but different to the hemp XRS. A tad more forgiving in the upper mids but less 'spacious' and detailed. That Scott amp looks amazingly retro, I like it. I read the Vista reviews and it looks like it's a great amp but I have to say I am a bit cautious when it comes to 'solid stateish' virtues. My 47 labs CDP and the XRS are really singing in the upper registers and anything that puts emphasis on the existing detail and accurancy might be what I am trying to cure. And Raj, yes, I entertained the SET idea so far. And a friend of mine says the same about filtering the lower frequencies to the sub, echoed by some SET people on audioasylum. I have been emailing back and forth with Don Garber regarding his Fi X amp and starting to think about a pre/power solution. Not sure if the 3Watt will be enough, though. And reading the overwhelming EL84 response I am wondering if 2A3's or 45's will better the EL84 when it comes to what I am looking for...sorry, just tossing around with terms I am not yet quite familiar with, hehe.

cheers

kai

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 Jul 2007, 06:31 am »

Still in the same room ?

schotter.....

Quote

....in a pretty large room with metal ceiling, sheetrock wall, suspended wood floor, industrial and not very furnished...I like acoustic guitars, some classic, some electronic dub and occasionally it has to rock..

schotter · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 Jul 2007, 03:32 pm »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 10 Jul 2007, 06:31 am

Still in the same room ?

yep!

provny · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Jul 2007, 01:51 am »

I think the Fi X (with magnequest transformers?) might work well. I tried my Fi 421A with the XRS speakers (with the original/prototype hemp drivers), and the amp (4 watts per channel) seems to be powerful enough. (You might ask Don Garber whether the fact that the speakers work well with the 421A would mean that the X would have enough power also...)

Another amp you might consider, that I also think would give you the sonic characteristics you are looking for, would be the Altmann BYOB. It goes for 750 euros from mother-of-tone dot com, or you can buy one from audio advancements in NJ. The BYOB doesn't look like much, but ihas plenty oomph for a 10 watt per channel amplifier.

schotter · « **Reply #13 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 02:10 am »

hey provny,
yes, the Fi X is still quite high up on my list based on what I hear. Seems like most people think with the XRS it should be loud enough for average listening but not headbangingly so. BYOB...I don't mind the looks that much, I actually think it could be a funny touch in an otherwise nice looking setup but the Fi looks sooooo much better...

provny · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 05:12 pm »

Quote from: schotter on 13 Jul 2007, 02:10 am

hey provny,
yes, the Fi X is still quite high up on my list based on what I hear. Seems like most people think with the XRS it should be loud enough for average listening but not headbangingly so. BYOB...I don't mind the looks that much, I actually think it could be a funny touch in an otherwise nice looking setup but the Fi looks sooooo much better...

I agree on the looks of the Fi-- all Fi amps are, as many have said, works of art.

Since no one else has mentioned it yet: For many, the perfect match for the XRS speakers is the RWA Signature 30-- plenty of power, great sounding, very smooth top to bottom.

Also, since you have the 47 lab CDP, have you considered trying the Shigaraki amp?

As for power requirements, here are a couple informative posts (hope it's okay to post them here

):

http://www.welbornelabs.com/recomendspeaks.htm

http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/sets.html

schotter · « **Reply #15 on:** 14 Jul 2007, 03:59 am »

Also, since you have the 47 lab CDP, have you considered trying the Shigaraki amp? [/quote]

OOps, that's exactly what I have.
Thanks for the recommendations. For now, I am trying Music References' little box EQ (hehe, does not sound quite like 47Labs shortes signal path and such..). Except this 'lower mids issue' (to my ears, in my room and setup), I like a lot about the XRS and the Shigaraki. So I figured I give this little thing a try before I keep scouting for tubes. Will report back.

cheers

kai

chadh · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 Jul 2007, 04:29 am »

For what it's worth, I use the XRS speakers (with the original Fostex drivers) with similar amplification. I have pair of Channel Islands VMB1 monoblocks, chip amps in the vein of the gaincard but with beefy power supplies. I also use a tubed pre-amp in this system (The QA-001 from Space Tech Labs, using a pair of 6sn7 tubes). If I had to pick the range that impresses me most in this system, it would be lower midrange and upper bass registers. I feel like I get great rhythmic drive from my system, and it comes primarily in that sort of range.

The biggest problem I have is in the upper registers, where things can sound a little brittle at times. I'm hoping this will improve when I replace the Fostex drivers with the hemp ones.

I realize that your amp is integrated, and so adding a tubed preamp may not make much sense. But if you like many of the characteristics of your amp, it may be worth investigating using some sort of chip amp with a tubed pre.

Chad

provny · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 Jul 2007, 02:56 pm »

Quote from: schotter on 14 Jul 2007, 03:59 am

For now, I am trying Music References' little box EQ (hehe, does not sound quite like 47Labs shortes signal path and such..). Except this 'lower mids issue' (to my ears, in my room and setup), I like a lot about the XRS and the Shigaraki. So I figured I give this little thing a try before I keep scouting for tubes. Will report back.

cheers

kai

Sounds like a good plan. I look forward to hearing how it works out!

jrhanl · « **Reply #18 on:** 21 Jul 2007, 11:41 pm »

Hi Kai,

Not sure if you've pulled the trigger already; if not, you might want to consider the Dared 2A3C set amp. I use this amp with both the XRS w/ fostex drivers and Devore Super 8s. I swapped out the chinese 6n3 tubes and replaced with some russian ones...that enriched the already rich bottom end.

With both speakers this amp has performed superbly for me. The Devore's are 90db sensitivity and it drives them to overwhelmingly loud levels without strain. I have owned the Dared for almost a year now, and I will be keeping it for the long term.

I also built and used a Charlize tripath amp with the XRSs...and while that sounded very nice, the high frequencies with that combo did sound off -- there's was an artificial touch of digital hash in the top end...in contrast the 2a3c's top end is quite smooth...this is especially noticable on the Super 8s...which go to 40khz.

If you can...try to give it a listen. It's a reallly good deal. And it matches beautifully with the Omega XRSs. This combo along with a cheap vinyl front end with a Bellari 129 phono has produced breathtakingly beautiful music for me...and not just on string quartets, etc...it also rocks amazingly well with The Who, Zeppelin and lots of Indie music..

EDIT: Just read your above post about the EQ...should have read a bit more thuroughly before posting...well, if you DO happen to go the SET route, perhaps my post will help some.

JLM · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 Jul 2007, 10:30 am »

2A3, 300B, and especially 45's are romantic tubes. (Not what you wanted, right?)

EL84's are typical tube warm. Do you want "warm rock"? (Just trying to pull together everything you've stated.)

I'd expect 47 Labs to have a thin mid/bass and sound a bit dry overall considering where they come from. As Chadh mentioned, the discontinued Channel Islands Audio VMB-1 monoblocks don't sound like that.

I've heard the Fi-X strain against 92 dB/w/m speakers trying to rock in a 20 x 20 room.

If similar speakers sound better in everyone else's room, but yours why don't you fix your room? IMO the proper route is proportion first (add a wall to decrease room size if needed), treatments second (to help the room sound bigger which is always a good thing), and EQ third (location specific and to be used only as needed).