[WntrMute2]

So, I'm a 2 channel guy exclusively, and I'm wondering what you all think are the strengths and weaknesses of your speakers.  I've been listening to my HT2-Tls now for about 8 weeks and have begun to form my opinions but before I share, I wonder what you all think?  My taste runs to Hendrix, SRV, Black Keys, Heartless Bastards, Junior Kimbrough and Buddy Guy.  Let's share your thoughts but include the music you are listening to.  I'm especially interested in music only systems.
Thanks, Dave

[Nuance]

The weaknesses of my SongTower's are extreme dynamics (only so much two 5" woofers and an 88dB sensitivity can do), and the missing lower octave of bass.  These are tradeoffs, and all speakers have them.  Fortunately for me they were the tradeoffs I chose to live with, and I couldn't be happier.  I don't listen to music at obscene levels (so the ultra dynamics is not a big deal), and the lower bass gets filled in by dual 15" sealed subwoofers.  Technically I am a 2.2 channel guy, but close enough. 

My music ranges from In Flames to Dream Theater to Diana Krall to Stravinsky to Tangerine Dream...and everything in between.   

[coke]

I listen to all types of music.  Last night we had Joe Satriani and Black Label Society.  Earlier today I had Stevie Ray and Buddy Guy.  Now Kelly Sweet and Celtic Women. 

Pros - Only speakers I've ever heard that I can listen to without an apparent flaw standing out and keeping me from enjoying the music.

Cons - Sometimes I like listening to music at "live" volumes.  The EXTREME dynamics as nuance put it is where the speakers are lacking.   I don't see this as a weakness though.    For the price of the HT2-TLs I wouldn't expect them to have the dynamics of a more expensive 3 way speaker with larger drivers.

Just so people don't misunderstand and think that Salks lack low frequency output, here's a vid I made a few weeks ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DQet-vtqeE

[WntrMute2]

I was hoping for a few more replies.  But I think the strengths of my Ht2-Tls
1)  Depth of imaging, instruments seem nicely layered front to back with crowd noise appropriately placed.

2)  Instrument realism, instruments seem very lifelike.  Drums seem like drums, guitars seem like guitars, etc.

3) Ability to disappear.  On the vast majority of material, there is no indication or clue that the speakers are producing the music.

4) Range of highs (except for cymbals) and lows  incredible.  The depth of the bass in my small listening room far exceeds my Snell EIIIs which have a much larger woofer.  The bass is also much tighter and identifiable. 


5)  Soundstage imaging from side to side is at least on par with my Snells.  Here I thought the Salks would be better in this department.  I do occasionally hear some imaging cues outside of the speakers which I never heard before.

Weakness:
1)  Cymbals sound recessed and muted.  On a few recordings these sound fine but on most, I feel like I'm missing something.  Cymbals usually are identifiable as to the different types, but I'm having trouble distinguishing the differences.

Overall, I'm really happy, I just wish the cymbals would sound more lifelike.

[floresjc]

Part of the reason I bought Salk's were the representation of cymbals. I played drums for over a decade (and still do a little) and I felt like they were pretty good at bringing them forward. Of course, this depends on the source material to a great degree. There are very few engineers who can properly mike a drum kit, and probably even fewer who can properly balance all the voices within that instrument.

Add to that where the listener is assumed to be. If you ever stand next to a guy playing the drums, or are playing yourself, the cymbal is very much in your face and "cutting". But high frequency tones die off quickly, so if you have the drummer play the same material at the same volume and you are halfway back the auditorium, you will hear much more bass drum and snare and the cymbals will be more recessed and probably muddied together some (in dull roar or generic swishy sound).

If you listen to Dave Matthews Band, try the song "#41" off the "Crash" album. The drums are a very prevalent and pretty properly miked sound in this song (rare for newer bands), and the Salks display them much to my liking (I have both the HT2-TL's and dome SongTowers). But if you listen to most rock (old or new), you are going to generally get the mushy swishy roar sound than any real defined anything and nothing Jim creates is going to fix all the variables that went wrong in the source material. Not to mention that hi-hat and ride cymbal in rock is not "as important" as in jazz and few drummers today pay attention to making it sound good. Its just there to help them keep time until they can crash their brains out on fills and the sort. Other genres like jazz drummers are much more keen to the sound and technique of cymbal playing.

But I don't doubt some of your recordings are done well and perhaps sound better on other speakers. I've found that other speakers do really well on the high end, and I can hear cymbals superbly, but I didn't like the overall balance because of the mid/low range. I prefer to have the overall balance that the Salks provide.

[oneinthepipe]

Weakness:
1)  Cymbals sound recessed and muted.  On a few recordings these sound fine but on most, I feel like I'm missing something.  Cymbals usually are identifiable as to the different types, but I'm having trouble distinguishing the differences.

Overall, I'm really happy, I just wish the cymbals would sound more lifelike.

What are you using as a source, preamp, and amp?  Ogogilby and I both used the sound of cymbals in music to compare tubes in our respective T8 DACs, and we both find that our systems reproduce cymbals very distinctly.  OgOgilby's new CJ preamp also made a huge difference in his system.  I don't think that the problem is in the HT2-TL tweeter.

I listen to a variety of music produced between 1966 and 2010.  I like classical music like Jimi, Janis, and Led Zeppelin.  I like modern female singer/songwriters, such as the brilliant Martha Wainwright, Shelby Lynne, and Rachael Yamagata.  I like pop music like Sia.  I also like Neil Young, Lucinda Williams, Simon and Garfunkle, Al Green, Bobby Bland, Booker T., Stevie Ray Vaughn, and Howling Wolf.  I am not a big fan of jazz or reggae.  Basically, I like pop, soul, rock, and blues.

The only weakness that I find in the HT2-TL, although I consider this more of a limitation in an MTM with 7" woofers, is the lack of ability to play very deep bass (lower 20s) at very loud volume in a large room without pushing the woofers (but not at my house). 

Regarding the soundstage, on some music, I hear sounds coming from the sides, and my room has absorption at the first and second side wall reflection points.  I am particularly impressed with the depth of the soundstage, especially after replacing the tubes in my preamp.  My room is my system's only weak link, I believe.  (When I dream, I have a 36' X 48' X 15' room with custom-built diffusers, one chair about 15' from the front wall, and a pocket billiard table in the back of the room.)

[K Shep]

Regarding the soundstage, on some music, I hear sounds coming from the sides, and my room has absorption at the first and second side wall reflection points.  I am particularly impressed with the depth of the soundstage, especially after replacing the tubes in my preamp.

IMO soundstage width and depth has much more to do with speaker placement, room interaction and recording quality.  Your room treatments open up the soundstage.  I would say the tubes may bring out more texture in the music that you may especially notice because your system has a good soundstage.

[vintagebob]

I'm not sure if you have any bass acoustic treatment in your setup but perhaps that additional bass impact from the HT2-TLs is causing more noticeable ringing in the room?  I find that the ringing interferes with female vocals and probably things like cymbals, etc.

[Nuance]

WntrMute2,

I am very sorry to hear the cymbals aren't accurate to your ears.  Honestly, I would guess the room is causing an issue, or perhaps you have a damaged tweeter(s); hope its not the latter. 

Could you by chance mess with placement, or even take room measurements?  Do you have your speakers toed in at all?  If not, give it a shot.  Oh, and listen WITHOUT the grills on; maybe it'll help some.  Also, can you take a picture of your setup and post it?

Like others have said, one of the reasons I love the LCY ribbon's on the Salk's is due to their incredible timbre and sibilance accuracy.  If you're not hearing what we're hearing then I suspect your room is causing an issue, you have a damaged tweeter(s) or maybe your hearing is different in that region than ours.  Hopefully we can help you resolve this issue quickly, and then maybe we can all listen to the same song together and comment on the cymbals and HF accuracy.  Thoughts?

[WntrMute2]

Now this sounds plausible,  I do "feel" that the cymbals are there, I just can't make them out as well as i remember my Snells doing.  Thanks to the others too.  I'm going to track down the Dave Mathews recording.  Any other good albums/tracks to experiment with?

[Nuance]

^ Whoa, our posts above are within 40 seconds of each other.  Oh yeah! 

[floresjc]

Now this sounds plausible,  I do "feel" that the cymbals are there, I just can't make them out as well as i remember my Snells doing.  Thanks to the others too.  I'm going to track down the Dave Mathews recording.  Any other good albums/tracks to experiment with?

Another one I use is "Blue Eyes" off the Garden State Soundtrack. Its got a fairly prominent ride cymbal throughout that goes from the fore to the back depending on the intensity of the singer. While I like these songs because I'm familiar with them and heard them a million times, others may think they are poor choices. But its what I use and thought I'd offer them up.

In particular with these two tracks, I use them because the beginning of #41 is pretty much just drums and a small bass part. Very clean and simple. The song builds and the chorus is fairly intense while retaining a very fun and musical cymbal part that's in the background. The better the speaker, the better I get the overall mix. If I'm missing something, it will be noticed by me. Same for Blue eyes, starts simple, chorus complex, check for missing something.

Also, Carter Beauford is one of the great drummers of all time. In general he makes sure his work is recorded well, and his technique and interplay between the golden triangle (hi-hat, snare, bass) is flawless. A jazz drummer converted to more of a rock/pop feel, a true giant in the field of drumming. Also can't go wrong with Dennis Chambers.

[floresjc]

Maybe scratch the Blue Eyes suggestion, I just listened to it again, and while I like the song, the cymbals aren't nearly as prominent as I remember. 99% of the time I'm listening to that one in the car and my wife has it all EQ'd to heck. But if you got it laying around, give it a listen and see what you think. Sounds good on my system but I wouldn't label it anything special. Yah ditch it, what a terrible suggestion.

 

[floresjc]

How could I forget? Perhaps my all-time favorite song to listen to on my HT2-TL's.

"The Stone" off of "Before these Crowded Streets" by Dave Matthews Band. Very neat song, sounds like utter trash on lesser systems. Awesome cymbal song, fast complex rhythms, and Carter uses pretty much the full suite of options (china trash, small splash, K dark crash, Z projection ride, Z/K hi hats, everything). If your tweeter sucks, this song will show it in an instant. I used to never listen to this and/or like this song, but listening on the HT2-TL's made it open up so much its one of my all time favorites now. Actually that whole CD moved into one of my top cd's with the HT2-TL's, it was one of my least listened to and I have his whole collection.

[oneinthepipe]

Shelby Lynne's Just a Little Lovin'.  Good track for cymbals and bass.

[WntrMute2]

What are you using as a source, preamp, and amp?  Ogogilby and I both used the sound of cymbals in music to compare tubes in our respective T8 DACs, and we both find that our systems reproduce cymbals very distinctly.  OgOgilby's new CJ preamp also made a huge difference in his system.  I don't think that the problem is in the HT2-TL tweeter.

I listen to a variety of music produced between 1966 and 2010.  I like classical music like Jimi, Janis, and Led Zeppelin.  I like modern female singer/songwriters, such as the brilliant Martha Wainwright, Shelby Lynne, and Rachael Yamagata.  I like pop music like Sia.  I also like Neil Young, Lucinda Williams, Simon and Garfunkle, Al Green, Bobby Bland, Booker T., Stevie Ray Vaughn, and Howling Wolf.  I am not a big fan of jazz or reggae.  Basically, I like pop, soul, rock, and blues.

The only weakness that I find in the HT2-TL, although I consider this more of a limitation in an MTM with 7" woofers, is the lack of ability to play very deep bass (lower 20s) at very loud volume in a large room without pushing the woofers (but not at my house).

My Preamp is a Wright WPL20, Amps are Transcendent Super Compact 150s, Source material either Rotel 955X or VPI HW-19 w/ Sumiko Blackbird.  Cables are Kimber Timber interconnects and speaker cables are Star Quad. I'm going to order those cds/vinyl of the stuff suggestd and see how it sounds.  It is funny though, other highs sound crystal clear and precise, it just seems a problem with reproducing cymbals accuratly. I'll try and put up pics of my set-up in the next few days.  BTW, I am using a bit of toe-in.  Other selections and suggestions are welcome

[Nuance]

Thanks for the info, WntrMute2.  Hopefully its just a weird room anomaly or something.  Do you have any room treatments?

I look forward to seeing the pics.

[floresjc]

Those 2 Dave Matthews tracks I think are excellent for drums and cymbals in general. I'm having a hard time singling out other tracks/albums to test things on. I really don't do a lot of that. Drummers I recommend that would probably have something in their arsenal would be:

Carter Beauford - Dave Matthews Band
Dennis Chambers (myriad of artists he worked with)
David Garibaldi - Tower of Power
Peter Erskine - Weather Report
Dave Weckl - Chick Corea
Neil Peart - Rush (great drummer, but known more for solos, I'm not sure if he has any amazing tracks with cymbal stuff on it)
Terry Bozzio - Frank Zappa (he's pretty hit or miss but at one of his workshops, he was really into some cymbal stuff, not my fav drummer by far)

[zybar]

Those 2 Dave Matthews tracks I think are excellent for drums and cymbals in general. I'm having a hard time singling out other tracks/albums to test things on. I really don't do a lot of that. Drummers I recommend that would probably have something in their arsenal would be:

Carter Beauford - Dave Matthews Band
Dennis Chambers (myriad of artists he worked with)
David Garibaldi - Tower of Power
Peter Erskine - Weather Report
Dave Weckl - Chick Corea
Neil Peart - Rush (great drummer, but known more for solos, I'm not sure if he has any amazing tracks with cymbal stuff on it)
Terry Bozzio - Frank Zappa (he's pretty hit or miss but at one of his workshops, he was really into some cymbal stuff, not my fav drummer by far)

Here are a few to add to your list:

John Bonham - Led Zeppelin (get the Led Zeppelin DVD and play Moby Dick - doesn't get any better than this)
Keith Moon - The Who
Ginger Baker - Cream, Blind Faith, Solo
Stewart Copeland - The Police
Bill Bruford - King Crimsom, Yes,
Buddy Rich - The Grandfather of modern drummers!

George

[zybar]

Shelby Lynne's Just a Little Lovin'.  Good track for cymbals and bass.

If you want cymbals and bass, I highly recommend listening to these songs:

Steely Dan - "Kid Charlemange" (The Royal Scam or any of their compilations)
The Bad Plus - "Keep the Bugs off Your Glass and the Bears off Your Ass" (These Are the Vistas)
Ben Harper - "Gold to Me" (Fight for Your Mind)
Rush - The Rhythm Method (A Show of Hands)
 
George