ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac

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JP78

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ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« on: 3 Nov 2008, 05:59 am »
hello all,

i was hoping to wind down my sunday evening with some emails and audiocircle (nothing like looking at nice systems to motivate one to work on monday :) ), and i came across this farce of a review.

http://www.dagogo.com/AudioVanAlstineUltraDAC.html

i don't own any van alstine products. frankly (couldn't resist), i don't know much about them...and i can't say i'm currently in the market for one. what i do know,  from two engineering degrees and plenty of personal interaction with megalomaniacs, is that this attempt to review equipment is an absolute joke. 

to show some sympathies for mr. schroeder, i will freely admit i prefer detachable IEC cables, and yes i have owned some obscenely expensive wadia players in my lifetime.  and normally i keep my nose clean, but this guy has me so ticked off that i'm somehow personally offended even though i have no reason to be ;).

anyway, back to being on topic of this mostly off-topic review.  the reviewer, mr.schroeder, went out of his way to spend as much time as possible affirming his belief system (and let's be honest, it is a belief system), and repeatedly emphasizing his ideas of what make a great dac.  in my opinion, the way this reviewer came across is probably somebody who has every copy of tas and stereophile chronicled on library shelves in the basement; and he will yell from the clock tower to the entire town square that he is not only an audiophile, but a reiviewer.

i copied the text from this article into ms word, and highlighted all sound-related issues in yellow, and information relating to iec cables, sound qualities of transports, and bullshit technobabble about bits the reviewer believes is correct in blue. 4.2 out of the 5 pages in word were in blue.

mr. van alstine, if you'd like a copy of the above taken as a screenshot, i'd be happy to send it over. i wanted to verify your 'manufacturer's response', and in fact my own results mirrored yours.

while i believe it's important everyone should have their own belief system, punishing a component for not conforming to *what one believes is correct* is absurd. 

some (IEC) quotes from the review:

Quote
The Ultra Dac is a component which will force the audiophile to make a decision either for or against generally accepted audiophile manufacturing practices, such as the almost universal use of the IEC connector along with aftermarket power cords, or the widely accepted use of upsampling in digital players and DACs.

Quote
I was disenchanted initially during a phone call placed to Frank in the early stages of this review as we discussed the absence of an IEC on the Ultra Dac.

 (more IEC talk)
Quote
As for blind testing, I assert the mind is incapable of highly consistent, hyper-critical, auditory recall and fails to identify accurately these same nuances in double bind tests.

Quote
Until someone can demonstrate the sound of an electron, the subject remains unsettled and my explanation in principle is plausible.

Quote
If measurements are critical, then any number of reliable means to obtain them can be used, i.e. standard power cord or IEC; low cost or audiophile quality transport. If, on the other hand, the  subjective assessment of sound following measurement  is the goal, then a large number of perfectly good objective means are ruled out in search of the few or one which will satisfy.

Quote
However, if the elements considered by many, including myself, to be indispensable to ultimate sound (such as the IEC or upsampling) are critical, then the reader needs to realize that options are intentionally limited with AVA gear.

Quote
For those with higher end players, it will likely be irrelevant whether the Ultra Dac would extend performance. This is especially so since the Ultra Dac is hamstrung by the elimination of an IEC...even at the limited 16-bit level, the Ultra Dac could improve significantly if an IEC were used.
 

Quote
The frustrating conclusion (frustration from what I perceive is holding it back) I draw in regards to the Ultra Dac is that it does perform at a very respectable level. In fact, it sounds amazingly good for a DAC with a toaster power cord and 16-bit processing.

Quote
In correspondence with Frank, as I returned the unit I suggested a daring proposal: Would he be willing to additionally retrofit the Ultra DAC with an IEC style power receptacle to accept after-market power cords?

Quote
The daring (and potentially beneficial) aspect of the proposal to him was that if the unit showed no substantial improvement following the IEC installation, I would publicly acknowledge that he had designed his DAC so as to be at the ultimate performance apart from that “cable nonsense” I kept pushing on him. However, if the unit was improved by the IEC, he would have to acknowledge it, but would also gain a viable upgrade for customers in the process.

Quote
Had Frank accepted the proposition and refitted his design with an IEC, things might have been different, as I am fairly certain the distinction in sound would have had a much better chance of passing the Law of Efficacy.

and, on that last quote, the man has invented his own 'Law of Efficacy'. wow.
 
ok, well i could go on and on, but then i'd basically be copying the entire review here.  does anyone else besides me find this review having well-crossed the line from professional to obsessive-compulsive neurotic?

i have no comments on the analysis of sound quality, other than i don't believe the reviewer is qualified to talk about 16bit versus 22bit if he doesn't understand how much more important it is to ensure sound fundamentals like star grounding or power regulation. one should teach mr. schroeder the basics or walking before running when it comes to electrically judging the merits of components.  i'd also like to point out that zanden, amr, 47 labs, and countless others are widely reviewed and owned throughout the audiophile reviewing community...all of these designs highlight 16bit dacs. i would be curious what this particular reviewer would say about a review of these designs, or maybe the reviews would be glowing because the aforementioned do have removable IEC.

by no means do i believe there is any kind of conspiracy for audiophile publications to favor manufacturers with large advertising budgets.  if, however, i did decide to start believing such nonsense, this review would be a great jump start for championing that message.

ok, well it's off my chest. i apologize for any spelling or grammatical errors...it's late and i'm lazy to go back and reread my words. g'night.

thunderbrick

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #1 on: 3 Nov 2008, 01:16 pm »
He is a complete idiot.  :duh: He says it sounds "amazingly good", yet continues to espouse measurable parameters (as if the impact of an IEC cord could be measured) as opposed to listening tests.  Auditory memory DOES exist!

thunderbrick

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #2 on: 3 Nov 2008, 01:19 pm »
Follow up........I have never met Frank, but with all his years in the business can you imagine the thoughts going through his head when this idiot essentially demanded he add an IEC, as if Frank had to answer to him anyway?  How the heck did he get a review sample with this attitude?

"Unique Audiophile Experience", indeed!

Charles Calkins

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #3 on: 3 Nov 2008, 02:54 pm »
This review of Frank's Ultra DAC is the main reason why I don't pay attention to "Getting paid to review" reviewers.
 I put much more faith in what my fellow Audiocircle members have to say about an audio product.

 The only "Paid" reviewer I ever paid attention to was Julian Hirsch. Yes I know he had critics but for the most part his was an honest review.


                                     Cheers
                                     Charlie

TONEPUB

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #4 on: 3 Nov 2008, 03:13 pm »
A number of high end designers have told me that the reason they went to the IEC
socket in the first place many years ago was because that made it easier to export
their stuff to other countries.

Lew Johnson at CJ still believes a hardwired power cord is the way to go for best
sound and that's the way they do it on the $25,000 ART 3.  Gotta believe both
Frank and CJ are on to something....

My  RedWine Isabella has a 16 bit DAC and it sounds great.  It's usually about
implementation.

I always hate hearing this kind of thing, because it gives all of us a bad name.

Brett Buck

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #5 on: 3 Nov 2008, 03:15 pm »
This review of Frank's Ultra DAC is the main reason why I don't pay attention to "Getting paid to review" reviewers.
 I put much more faith in what my fellow Audiocircle members have to say about an audio product.

     It is, however, a perfect example of how superstition and psychosomatic illnesses masquerading as golden ear evaluation  dominate the "audio" industry. As bad as it all was 25 years ago, it's an order of magnitude worse now.

      Brett

Vapor Audio

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #6 on: 3 Nov 2008, 03:28 pm »
Does anyone else besides me find this review having well-crossed the line from professional to obsessive-compulsive neurotic?

I just read the review and have to agree with you.  The 'review' oozes of bias and self-righteousness.  I assume somebody at dagogo acts as an editor before reviews like this are published to the live website.  If so, they failed their job as well. 

Reviews like this are incredibly damaging to the high-end industry.  They serve as fodder for the "wire is wire" and "all cd players sound the same" crowds that repeatedly insist audiophile mags and websites are perpetuated by koolaid drinking fools. 

To the point here, engineer or not it seems pretty obvious that the better electrical junction will be achieved with a direct to power supply soldered wire instead of an extra IEC solder joint and mechanical plug-plug connection.  But this reviewer shouldn't have judged the merits of either method.

miklorsmith

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #7 on: 3 Nov 2008, 03:36 pm »
I have to wonder why the reviewer would have selected that piece in the first place.  The "16 bit" and "captive powercord" elements are immediately available pieces of information with any homework whatsoever.  I believe in free choice, if a person believes an IEC inlet and ubersampling are necessary pieces of a successful DAC, OK. 

But what has been done here is to choose a piece that was or could easily been known not to satisfy basic conditions of the reviewer's checklist.  It would be like reviewing a 45-watt SET amp on Watt Puppies and bemoaning the lack of bass control.  Duh.

TjMV3

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #8 on: 3 Nov 2008, 03:38 pm »
This review of Frank's Ultra DAC is the main reason why I don't pay attention to "Getting paid to review" reviewers.
 I put much more faith in what my fellow Audiocircle members have to say about an audio product.

     It is, however, a perfect example of how superstition and psychosomatic illnesses masquerading as golden ear evaluation  dominate the "audio" industry. As bad as it all was 25 years ago, it's an order of magnitude worse now.

      Brett

The arrogance and pomposity is laughable.  

What a pointless and usless review.  Page after page of utter nonsense,  useless drivel and self-flagellation.

It's this type garbage that turns many away from this hobby.

Power chords,  indeed.

Brett Buck

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #9 on: 4 Nov 2008, 04:29 pm »
The arrogance and pomposity is laughable.  

What a pointless and usless review.  Page after page of utter nonsense,  useless drivel and self-flagellation.

It's this type garbage that turns many away from this hobby.

Power chords,  indeed.

     As long as it's possible to convince imbeciles to buy 50¢ of wire for $2000, someone will be there to do it.

     Brett

stereocilia

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #10 on: 4 Nov 2008, 05:32 pm »
Regarding IECs: I would not be inclined to spend money on magic power cords, but I would spend money on a longer one.  That way, neatly running the power cord between the carpet and the wall would not be interrupted by an extension cord coupling.  I know some people have their amp two feet (or less) from an outlet, so why not use a two foot (or less) cord?  No, it's not deal-breaker, but it isn't "worthless", either.  Think about why hard-wiring speaker cables is not practical, either.

TONEPUB

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #11 on: 4 Nov 2008, 05:40 pm »
This review of Frank's Ultra DAC is the main reason why I don't pay attention to "Getting paid to review" reviewers.
 I put much more faith in what my fellow Audiocircle members have to say about an audio product.

 The only "Paid" reviewer I ever paid attention to was Julian Hirsch. Yes I know he had critics but for the most part his was an honest review.


                                     Cheers
                                     Charlie

Except the people at Dagogo, don't get paid to review anything.  They aren't professional writers either.

Really all a good review should do is tell you about the product.
Size, shape, a bit of techie stuff and the price.

You also need a context of the room and system the equipment has
been used in and if there are any potential synergy issues.  A good
description of your basic musical experience is great as well.

Hopefully a well written product review can get you interested enough in said
product to go check it out for yourself and see if it does, in fact, meet your
needs.

Also important is the writers bias going in (I agree with Miklorsmith here)
so that you know if the reviewer shares some of your likes and dislikes.
If they don't, whatever analysis they come up with probably won't help you.

Ideally, a competent review should help you make a purchase.  Hopefully
when you go to audition the component for yourself, you will draw the same
conclusions.  If not, then the review has failed you and the manufacturer.

Charles Calkins

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #12 on: 4 Nov 2008, 05:49 pm »
Oops!!  Sorry about that I thought they were paid to review. My error

                                      Cheers
                                     Charlie

TjMV3

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #13 on: 4 Nov 2008, 05:59 pm »
Regarding IECs: I would not be inclined to spend money on magic power cords, but I would spend money on a longer one.  That way, neatly running the power cord between the carpet and the wall would not be interrupted by an extension cord coupling.  I know some people have their amp two feet (or less) from an outlet, so why not use a two foot (or less) cord?  No, it's not deal-breaker, but it isn't "worthless", either.  Think about why hard-wiring speaker cables is not practical, either.

That's not the point.  

Of course there's legitimate/valid functional and envorinmental reasons to buy power chords.  Even a reason or two not so practical.  Like,  they look cool and match the interconnects and speaker wire.  That's fine.  I bought Cobalt Cable power chords for that exact reason.  They match and look cool.  Not crazy expensive,  just more expensive than typical off the self power chords.

But my point was,  that within the context of that review the "reviewer " spent more time blowing smoke up his own ass,   practicing self-flagellation and performing a double-jointed feat of patting himself on his own back;  than he did reviewing the DAC.

He is full of himself with pride for challenging Frank's beliefs on power chords and testing Frank's patience with his requests;  and gushing all over himself with lunatic arrogance for the "brillance" of his 'Law of Efficacy'.

What a hack job.  Talk about self-absorbed,  narcissistic and pretentious.  

The "reviewer" failed to do his job.  Which is to thoroughly review the DAC in it's stock form....the way Frank builds them and sells them.  And convey his experience and results.  

Instead we're tortured with a cesspool of a pompus blabbering,  self-important mess with a prose he designed to boost and display his own nightmarish ego.

Undoubtedly,  any human being with a shred of dignity and humility would be embarrassed by that dispicable mess.

Undoubetdly,  Mr. Schroeder is not.  




viggen

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #14 on: 4 Nov 2008, 06:24 pm »
Quote
My journey in audio has led me to the unshakable conclusion that power cords are, with today’s technology level, critical in achieving the apex of listening enjoyment from one’s system.

http://www.dagogo.com/DougSchroeder-Law2.html

It's not that I don't agree with him.  But, his rationale is ...

Wayner

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #15 on: 4 Nov 2008, 06:42 pm »
First, let's do the math that all electronics is based on. I think Frank supplies 16/2 SP2 wire on his preamp. The current carring capacity of 16 awg @ 60 degrees C is 13 amps. Does anyone here think that Franks preamp or DAC draws 13 amps? How about 5? 3?

Think about it.

martyo

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #16 on: 4 Nov 2008, 07:19 pm »
Quote
Regarding IECs: I would not be inclined to spend money on magic power cords, but I would spend money on a longer one.  That way, neatly running the power cord between the carpet and the wall would not be interrupted by an extension cord coupling.  I know some people have their amp two feet (or less) from an outlet, so why not use a two foot (or less) cord?  No, it's not deal-breaker, but it isn't "worthless", either.  Think about why hard-wiring speaker cables is not practical, either.

That's not the point.  

Of course there's legitimate/valid functional and envorinmental reasons to buy power chords.  Even a reason or two not so practical.  Like,  they look cool and match the interconnects and speaker wire.  That's fine.  I bought Cobalt Cable power chords for that exact reason.  They match and look cool.  Not crazy expensive,  just more expensive than typical off the self power chords.

But my point was,  that within the context of that review the "reviewer " spent more time blowing smoke up his own ass,   practicing self-flagellation and performing a double-jointed feat of patting himself on his own back;  than he did reviewing the DAC.

He is full of himself with pride for challenging Frank's beliefs on power chords and testing Frank's patience with his requests;  and gushing all over himself with lunatic arrogance for the "brillance" of his 'Law of Efficacy'.

What a hack job.  Talk about self-absorbed,  narcissistic and pretentious.  

The "reviewer" failed to do his job.  Which is to thoroughly review the DAC in it's stock form....the way Frank builds them and sells them.  And convey his experience and results.  

Instead we're tortured with a cesspool of a pompus blabbering,  self-important mess with a prose he designed to boost and display his own nightmarish ego.

Undoubtedly,  any human being with a shred of dignity and humility would be embarrassed by that dispicable mess.

Undoubetdly,  Mr. Schroeder is not.  





TjMV3, maybe next time you can tell us what you really think. :wink:

TheChairGuy

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #17 on: 4 Nov 2008, 07:38 pm »
I like IEC's (just for the convenience, mostly) personally, but that review was obnoxious and horribly slanted to convenience rather than sound considerations.

Isn't is sound, ultimately, that we all slave to our systems?  Who cares in what form it comes in - sheesh  :roll:

Hope it in any way didn't dent your day, Frank.

John

TONEPUB

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #18 on: 4 Nov 2008, 07:47 pm »
Frank has always made excellent gear, that offers very good sound at a very reasonable
price.  I doubt one squirrelly review will shut his doors.

But this also sheds a light on what a responsibility it is to review someone's product.

It's great to be full of opinions and enthusiasm, but at the end of the day, someone
like Frank or any other manufacturer is trusting you (the reviewer) with their life's work.

While so many people want to read "negative" reviews, this is the perfect example
of where this just doesn't hold water.  Precious few manufacturers these days make
junk. Most gear sounds different, and on a broad perspective, some gear reveals more
musical information/detail than others and some do a better job with accurately reproducing
the tonality of acoustic instruments.

Again, it's my job to try and help you sift through it all and put some
things on a short list. What I like or don't like is not important.  My job
is to report.

I've heard his DAC, and like all the other stuff Frank makes, it's high performance
and no frills.  Does it outperform my Wadia 521? No.  But it's a really good DAC for 1500
bucks. 

sbrtoy

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #19 on: 4 Nov 2008, 08:16 pm »
I personally wouldn't buy AVA gear because of the looks, I admit it, I like a little more bling...however I would also hope that a reviewer would realize their own bias, they should never be reviewing something that they truly do not like for whatever reason be it aesthetic or conceptual as it will most certainly be a poor outcome for both the writer and the manufacturer.  I feel bad for Mr. Van Alstine as reviews don't happen every day and this is clearly a waste of his time sending the product to this gentleman.