Any comments on the SongSurrounds 1 or 2 as mains with a sub?

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ichillpill

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Am interested in the SongSurround1 or 2 with a sub as mains....

Would love to hear comparisons to the Songtower or other monitors you have owned...much appreciated.


ichillpill

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anyone?

avahifi

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First of all, in most home systems, you will never go for a subwoofer with the Songtowers after auditioning them.  The clean deep bass response is significantly better than you would expect.

One much misunderstood issue regarding loudspeakers is the low frequency response specifications.  It is much more important to understand how the response was achieved rather than what the actually numbers are.  You can tune almost anything for an impressive looking low frequency spec if you simply underdamp the woofer to provide excess output at a very low frequency (a tuned resonance). This will provide good numbers, but really muddy and ill-defined bass.  Essentially you can consider that all output at low frequency that is more than what could be achieved with a low resonant design (Q of 0.5 or thereabouts) actually is just low frequency noise - - not part of the musical performance.  A speaker critically damped with a low frequency rolloff of 45 Hz for example, will sound like it has much more impressive true musical bass response than a significantly underdamped speaker with a specification of 30 Hz.  Its all on how you got the bass, not the actually numbers.

Finally, if even more impressive low frequency performance is absolutely desired, then why not just put the extra funds into a set of Salk HT3s instead of a subwoofer and whatever amplifier and electronic crossover you will need to drive them?  Most so called built in subwoofer "plate amplifiers" simply don't play clean musical bass in the first place.

My strong suggestion, electronics that can reproduce (not produce) clean musical bass from top to bottom, and speakers that can do the same.  Keep it simple.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Whoops, I misunderstood the questions, thought the writer was talking about SongTowers, not SongSurrounds. Please disregard the error.  The info regarding splicing a subwoofer into a main speaker system is still valid though.  Sorry about that.

dlon

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you're suggesting to avoid subs altogether?

audiotom

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I have HT3's in my front 2 channel music room - no sub required

my home theatre room has a fathom 13 sub - I think song towers would be an ideal match to a goot sub in home theatre

fsimms

I tried SongTowers with and without a sub.  I crossed over at 80 Hz.  The sound improved.  Removing the base duties off of the SongTowers cleaned up the midrange.  I was using an expensive Tact 2.2x  to do the crossover and adjust the frequency response.   The Tact also would put in a delay to get the sub and the SongTowers to blend perfectly.   If you can do that then I think the SongTowers II could be a better way to go.  If you can't get a good crossover to the sub then a plain SongTower would be best.

Bob

ArthurDent

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Am interested in the SongSurround1 or 2 with a sub as mains....

Would love to hear comparisons to the Songtower or other monitors you have owned...much appreciated.



icp - can probably have something for you around New Years if that's any help. Song Surround Is on order, hopefully will arrive before Christmas. If you're still in need of some info at that time will post my experiences.  :)

ArthurDent

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icp - don't know if it's still of interest, and apologies for the extended delay in my response, here's my impressions fwiw. Please note these are definetly not offered as any form of technical review or analysis, simply what I heard in the 4 different setups. Sorry, no specific 2 channel setup with sub, only sub in HT, but hopefully info of some value.

System #1: office - Outlaw RR 2150 Receiver 100 wpc/8 ohms, Sony CDP355 changer, Furman 8 outlet powerstrip, spkrs; a) Salk SS I  b) Dahlquist DCM-7

office is a converted 10'x11' bedroom, typical 8' ceiling, lots of 'stuff' around room, 2 computers, plotter, printer, ... . The surrounds were placed on top of the DCM-7s, which are located on short wall with door. Listening distance 3-5'. Tweeters for the DCM-7s are at ear level, the Salks being on top approx 1' above. Spkrs located only about 7" off wall, one in front of an open closet, roughly 5' apart c-c.

impression - while not a really an apples to apples comparison the SS Is sounded great. Voicing pretty much same as the STs, transparent mids & highs, clean tight bass. If anything the high end imaging & sound stage to the the SS Is for clarity & airiness (?). For feeling the bass, as would be expected the DCM-7s win, 8" woofer vs 5 1/4" mid. But the bass response & presence were good.

System #2: Living Rm Tele/Aux Surround system - 12 yr old Yamaha RX-V590 Stereo Surround Receiver 75 wpc/8 ohms, a couple of DVD/VHS recorder/players, Furman 8 outlet powerstrip, spkrs; small MK center, old ratshack Realistic 2 ways for L/R Rear surround, old Velodyne CT-100 sub, front L/R -a) Salk SS I b) Outlaw Bookshelf

living room is open in the middle, seating U'd around the TV, primary listening point approx 13' & 2' off center. Room is 13' w x 16' long, setup is on narrow wall with hall opening on left, large opening adjacent the primary listening seat to left into dining room, no specific room treatments.

impressions - a more realistic a-b comparison, they both use the Seas 5 1/4" mid-woofer, the Outlaw is a silk dome tweeter I believe. While the Outlaws are a nice speaker, with boundary & frequency compensation switches (my '70s Advent Utilities have the freq adjustment), and they are bi-amp-able, I would say the SS Is won this comparison. As before the imaging and soundstage are slightly superior, particularly on the highs, providing more 'air'/open soundstage for lack of a better term. Sound was good for both on movies, and FM Tuner music & a couple of CD music applications. imo they work very well with the noted system particularly as it is a surround not 5.1, 2 channel 'decoding' handled within the receiver, and for small to mid sized rooms are good for all but maybe neighbor shaking volumes.

System #3a: dedicated 2 ch - AVA OmegaStar 250 amp 120 wpc/8 oms, AVA Transcendence 8 Preamp, AVA Ultra DAC 6N1P, Sony CDP changer, optical feed out to Inday switcher/coax to DAC, Furman Pf15i Power Unit, spks; a) Salk Song Tower QWT  b) Salk Surround I

listening area is front half of 14' w x 25' L x 7'-6" H room, seating around 7' in front, conc slab on grade, 2" rigid insulation w/T&G deck on slab, thick pad & carpet (as opposed to other areas which are carpet on wood flr over crawlspace), curtains on the 2 small high windows along the long ext wall, and the medium window behind the setup.

impression - as can be expected given the SS Is are 2/3 speaker-wise of the Towers the sound is very similar. Good imaging, & soundstage, only slightly smaller and a little less bass extension with the SS Is. The SS Is were set on top of the Towers with folded towels between to protect the finish. I would guess that given limited space, and proper crossover setup with a sub the SS Is should serve fine as mains. I heard very little difference to the Towers except what would be expected bass-wise due the cabinet, and 'body-wise' for lack of a better term, given the additional 2 mids. The Towers present bigger because they are.

System #3b: same room/configuration, AVA FetValve 550 220 wpc/8 ohms (?), AVA Utra Preamp 6N1P, AVA Insight DAC, Denon DCM-920 5 disk changer (noisy sucker mechanically, but easier to find/load specific disks. And, no haven't worked up to the various digital tech options as yet. Am still mostly digitally challenged.) The Denon has both coax & digital out, currently running coax direct to Insight DAC.

impressions - mostly refinement in all areas due to the step up in front end. More details, wider, deeper soundstage, smoother sound. Not a particularly good description, but best I can do.

System #4: HT 5.1/incl the 'a' noted 2 channel - add in an OmegaStar 260/3 amp for center/L-R surround, Outlaw 990 Pre-Pro, Outlaw LFM-2 sub, Song Center, Front L/R - Song Towers incoporated via Tape 2 in on T-8, Rear L/R - Song Surround Is.

configuration - Surrounds sit on 2 bookshelves on each side of long wall, one roughly 1' down from ceiling (RR), one about -2" down (LR), approx 3' behind prime listening position. Have a set of the recommended wall brackets, but as yet to figure logistics for install. Tough room to work with as configured & being used.

impressions - as would or should be expected, upon initial balancing via the 990's built-in system everything matches. Tone, timbre, pitch, presence. For my wants and needs I couldn't ask for more, except maybe a slightly larger room that allowed a better arrangement. For a another maybe better put impression check the files for godawgs5 post-visit post, and adjust for the swap from the then rear channels being the Outlaws.

Overall - I say the Song Surround Is could easily be lived with as mains, especially if you add in the sub to extend & flush out the bottom end. But as in all situations a lot will depend on what is wanted and expected. Vs the closest comparable speaker I have the Outlaws, purchased not long before the birth of the ST line, I'd give the SS Is the edge. This based on the more open high end presence. The imaging just seems a little more natural. Both are top rear ported. Price-wise they are close. The Outlaws were $1K in a dark cherry veneer, at their intro offer. As noted they offer some features that may be of benefit depending on your situation. The bi-amp capability may be the most useful, though I haven't tried that yet. I haven't played with the boundary & frequency adjustments that much, just followed their recommendations for the particular location. The SS Is are $900 if memory serves, and haven't seemed to suffer any from the lack of adjustibility.

Comparing them to my 30 yr old re-coned Advent Utilities, no contest. SS Is hands down. Of course they were only $107 ea new. Comparing them to the 20 yr old re-coned woofer Dahlquist DCM-7s, depends. Size & highs goes to the SS Is, overall it's close, though the DCM-7s still sound great, present good imaging, soundstage, and the bass can be really felt.

So that's it. Hopefully late is better than never. As noted there's been lot going on this past winter/spring, and as I try to give some thought to what I write (doesn't always work) I just hadn't had the chance to sit down & put it all together. Offered for what it's worth.   
   




ichillpill

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Arthur,

Thanks so much for the comparisons. Given your comparison's I think I will start out with the Songsurrounds and pair them with my sub. If funds allow I will get the Songtowers and move the SS1s to the rear as Jim Salk had suggested to me a while back. Jim's advice and your  comparisons helped out a lot as it'll save me from diving directly for the songtowers, not that I shouldn't in the first place hehe. I also don't think there are any songtowers nearby (LA area) to audition much less the SS1s. I think there is an HT3 owner nearby but that's way out of my league money wise. 

With the Songtower RT now available, would a SongSurround RT follow suit? Not that I'd use them as surrounds but as mains....

jsalk

With the Songtower RT now available, would a SongSurround RT follow suit? Not that I'd use them as surrounds but as mains....

Well, that idea does come up in conversations once and a while.  But it doesn't make all that much sense to me.  For surround duty, I'm not sure the ribbon would add all that much.  And by the time you add the cost of a pair of ribbons to this design, you should probably be looking at HT1's or some even higher end design.  While the ribbon would certainly sound nice and we certainly would have no objection to doing it upon request, it is probably not something we will pursue until a customer specifically requests it.

- Jim

mchuckp

I didn't see it noted on the Salk website.  Anyone know how low the SongSurround I's and the SongSurround II' go?  Would that be the main sonic difference between the two?  Any chance one could use the SS II as a main without a sub and feel satisfied?