RM40s in the basement!

jgubman · « **on:** 22 Nov 2003, 07:26 am »

Well, the 40s are in the basement and hooked up. Been listening to them for about 3 hours now and have some initial impressions.

My basement is a concrete slab w/ concrete walls about 4' giving way to a criple wall and ceiling, both finished w/ 1/4" laminate plywood. There's a tankless water heater, pipes and vent in the front right and a semi-circle staircase in the back right. Dimensions are 13' W x 21' L x 6'3" H. Room does double duty as TV/Home Theater room. Speakers are about 5'9" apart w/ a TV, amps and LRC on a stand btwn them. Listening position is about 9' from the front 3 speakers.

Here's a photo from the sweet spot:

Impressions:
a) They sound GREAT. Fantastic pinpoint imaging, wonderful stage, great presence in the room. The room doesn't seem overpowered at all. There's a wonderful sparkle in cymbals and bells, a piano has a very pleasant tinkle (sounds better than my piano in the other room...) and bass has a nice hit. John Casler said I'd freak out at how good it sounds down here, and he's right.

b) Pot tuning seems a LOT more meaningful than pot tuning the LRC. I was wondering why all it seemed like the sound was coming out of one speaker until I remembered that I'd turned one to 2 and 2:30 per instructions and left one speaker in the factory 12 and 12 settings. Tuned them both to 2 and 2:30 and got my speaker back!

c) They aint easy to move. Took my friend and I an appliance dolly, heavy lifting and about 1/2 hour to get them from the van down the curved staircase and into place. Don't want to think about ever getting them OUT of the room...

d) My speaker cable didn't reach. I had the delete toggle omitted, because I have Tara Labs Prime 1800 biwire cable. The ends strech about 11" but I couldn't make them fit into both binding posts. I currently have both the spades crammed into one binding post and my friend made some jumpers from home depot 12g wire for a temporary solution. Anyone have any suggestions?

e) They really brought out the worst in my equipment/room. Since I moved into our new house and converted the basement, I've heard sibilance in my system. Now even more so. I'm sure it's a room mode and probably my cheapo Outlaw preamp. When my budget recovers some, the preamp will be the first to go. Also, I have a nasty null from about 40hz - 80hz. I know I need to remove more putty (only took out about a small pea from each spkr) and adjust the pots, but I've got a lot more work to do.

Anyway, despite my shortcomings, these speakers sound great. I love them, my wife doesn't seem too upset by them. They don't sound as good as Brian's did in his room, but my room is about 1/2 the size and I didn't really expect them to sound as good as in the LEDE room.

Thanks Brian, thanks John.

More rushed, not so great photos in my gallery:

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/modules.php?set_albumName=album34&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page=1

audiochef · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 07:39 am »

Congradulations jgubman, your room looks smaller than mine. This is no problem though. I think I have the same speaker cables as you, but I have no problem with the biwire. Just let them break in and keep tweaking , they'll get even better with your refining.

jgubman · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 07:54 am »

Yeah, when I ordered the 40s, I thought the tara labs would reach, because I saw your detailed photo of your tara labs reaching in your gallery photo.

Guess my binding posts are a tiny bit further apart? They just *barely* don't reach. If I had another 1/2", they'd fit no problem.

Oh well, nothing's perfect!

audiochef · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 08:02 am »

Your cables will stretch. If your up to it ,you can even slit the rubber a little, I did. Anyways, just enjoy.

Stan

jgubman · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 08:32 am »

Yeah, I'm an idiot. I didn't stop to think for a minute that the Tara Labs has spade/banana terminations that screw in. I replaced one of the spade w/ bananas, and everything's good:

Hope this helps someone in the future.

BrunoB · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 04:14 pm »

Quote from: jgubman

Well, the 40s are in the basement and hooked up. Been listening to them for about 3 hours now and have some initial impressions.

My basement is a concrete slab w/ concrete walls about 4' giving way to a criple wall and ceiling, both finished w/ 1/4" laminate plywood. There's a tankless water heater, pipes and vent in the front right and a semi-circle staircase in the back right. Dimensions are 13' W x 21' L x 6'3" H. Room does double duty as TV/Home Theater room. Speakers are about 5'9" apart w/ a TV, am ...

jgubman,

after looking at the picts, I would put a lot of acoustic foam in this room since the look in a basement is not important . Actually, it will look much better with foam (cozy). First, on the wall behind the speakers, and then on the side wall and on the ceiling. And it would not be very expensive to try ( http://www.foambymail.com's egg crate foam, $40 for 72" x 80" x 2-1/2"). The sound improvement will be substantial.

Bruno

Marbles · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 04:16 pm »

And you didn't ask, but it might help to pull the speakers out another foot or so towards the listening position. Something to play with anyway.

wshuff · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 04:29 pm »

The speakers look nice.

What kind of center channel speaker stand do you have? I've been considering moving my LRC from its current position on top of my RPTV, angled down, to a stand in front like you have. The only stand that I've seen which looks promising is the Sound Anchors Aerial center channel stand. Is that what you are using?

warnerwh · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 05:32 pm »

Congratulations! They do sound excellent. Once you get the hang of tuning the passive radiator it will bloom to another level. The changes can be subtle and it will actually affect the smoothness and possibly sibilance of upper frequencies. Many people, including myself, have had some trouble here learning the true potential of removing a little putty. It will affect the tonal balance more than you may think. You'll be surprised what a small amount of money into some acoustic foam can do. You can get some fairly inexpensively from: http://www.foamorder.com/products.cgi?cart=b0W0t0n29193142221n6A2c1Z&item=acoustic
They'll cut pieces to any size you like. Be sure to get the thicker stuff and maybe a tube trap to help in the bass. You can make them for much less than buying them. There's even pictures. Go to Jon Risch's web site. If in need of specific information you can email him and he will answer you. Very nice person. Pulling the speakers out farther from your system may help considerably also. Those are the best speakers I've ever heard. Enjoy your new speakers.

ABlakeG · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 05:38 pm »

I have to say that I had my doubts about how good these were going to sound down in Jon's basement, but I was pleasantly suprised with the way they ended up. Based on last night, and with more tweaking and some judicial use of room treatments, I think that they are going to rival any other system that I have ever heard. They are going to have to, because now that I helped him get them down the stairs, they are NEVER coming out.

Blake (the brother-in-law whose feet are visible in one of the pictures)

jgubman · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 05:39 pm »

Thanks for the replys guys.

Yes, on my short list is buying some acoustic foam and tube traps and getting them down there. My wife is a little against putting foam all over the room and would prefer something a little more attractive.
Does anyone have any experience w/ the 8th Nerve stuff? Can it come close to the benefits of foam?

And, yes, I definately plan on toying w/ speaker placement today and tomorrow!

I've got a lot more work to do.

wshuff -- The stand is the Sound Anchor Center Channel Stand (John Casler can help you get them). I bought it originally for my Paradigm Studio CC and it's just a little too small for the LRC. It's held it in place just fine for about 3 months now, doesn't buckle or move when my cat jumps on the speaker! It is a tiny bit wobbly though. I'm thinking of selling it and getting the Studio Center Stand. Looks a little more sturdy:
http://www.soundanchor.com/page68.html

Marbles · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 06:42 pm »

I did replace some foam with 8th Nerve products. 8th Nerve stayed..foam left....

John Casler · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 09:16 pm »

Hi Jon,

Hope you've had a chance to digest the post I sent you this morning.

I didn't realize what a ceiling you have there. Not only is it "low" but it is "shiny". And what does shiny mean? High frequency reflections, that what.

And with no foam to use for a while you need my "sonic director tweak"

Just run around the house and find something to do the "Sonic Director" tweak and get set to "freak out" even more.

I have used all kinds of materials for this tweak, even record albums or laser discs (3-4 of each in their covers placed on top of the speaker with at least 6-7" sticking out over the front of the speaker)

I have recently been playing with this tweak even more and (I'm sorry about how this looks, but......) I have found that a sheet of something solid (like a shelf or plywood or whatever) about 26" x 26" x 1/2" will absolutley "blow you away". Place it so at least 8" sticks out over the front and sides.

It is easy to throw on top of the speaker (can be removed after serious listening) and will block the early reflections, not only in front but will also block the side ceiling reflections.

I placed this tweak on mine this morning and when my 17 year old non-audio (as in dad you're crazy) daughter came into the listneing room and sat down (well out of the sweet spot) she immediatly said "What did you do?", "It sounds so different".

"DIfferent how?" I said, since she has never noticed anything like this before. It sounds "more fuller, you know like bigger". (she really does know how to speak english and use good grammar, but it was Sat Morning)

So, if you can locate anything like that, even if you have to use the record albums you should notice a good improvement. You might even try a few sheets of stiff cardboard.

Also remember to put something "heavy" (10# min) on top to stabilize and reduce vibration.

Also place a blanket or towel temporarily over both the Heater (when it is not in use of course) on the right side, and the Equipment rack on the left side.

And if you can, also put a blanket over the screen when you listen to 2 channel music.

And even without too much treatment, you'll acheive some very dramatic increases.

I'll post you more ideas as I think of them, and get your feed back.

John Casler · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 09:24 pm »

I have already thought of more;

1) part of your sibilance problem is probably caused by early reflections off that ceiling (that shine is a dead give away)

2) And pots set at 2:30 for that room are going to be pretty hot. This will cause you to reduce volume and this will reduce power to the woofers.

Back the pots down to about 12:00 and see if the midbass and bass don't come back up a bit. Remember the pots also affect the balance between the woofers and the mid/highs.

Most of all. have fun.

Tyson · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Nov 2003, 09:30 pm »

I agree, 2:30 is too hot, back them down to at least 12:00. Play them hard for about 2 weeks, then start doing the putty adjustment - no point in doing any PR adjustments until after they've burned in a bit.