[Imperial]

Hello enginelovers (I hope at least some audiophiles here also like cars/engines! They do make lovely noise!
This engine is currently being built!

But, How powerful will it be?
I bet there has never been a poll like this ever before on a audiophile forum!!!
The web-zine article: http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/0503hpp_spotts_performance_505_street_engine/index.html

Come on! Make a guess!!! The answer will appear about ca 27'th of june! I don't know the answer myself yet!
See the engine run: http://www.spottsperformance.com/images6/IA2.wmv
Hm... I wonder how much twist it's got? 

Imperial

 

[Bob in St. Louis]

Can't see the engine run 
WMP11 gives me the warning, "Windows Media Player cannot play the file. If the file is located on the Internet, connect to the Internet. If the file is located on a removable storage card, insert the storage card."
Well, no shit. I AM connected to the internet. 

Rant over.

I do like hotrods Imperial. Nothing better than hearing a lope at idle, then a bit of a tap on the throttle, all just before launch at the line.  aa
Many years ago I worked at the local dragstrip. My job was to guide the cars into the waterbox and tell the drivers when it's OK to perform a burnout. pure adrenaline rush standing there. Made my nipples hard.  Few things in life are better than standing a few feet from a thousand or so horsepower.

It's an unrealised hobby for me. Lack of time, money, and space keeps me from building my own streetrod. I have occasional daydreams of building a late 60's General Motors monster with a GM crate 'ZZ' motor in it.....But then reality wakes me up. 
The occasional car show satisfies the bug.

Bob

[mgalusha]

It sounds nice (I did a right click/save on the video link) so that certainly eliminates the won't start option.

Big Pontiac's can certainly produce plenty of torque. I have fond memories of leaning to drive in a '63 Willy's jeep fitted with a very strong 389. The jeep weighed in at 2150lbs and supposedly the motor was just a shade over 500HP. My best friends father was very into hot rods and Pontiac's in particular. You can imagine the performance with that power/weight ratio. I actually got to take my drivers test in that beast in the mid 70's. It was awesome though I babied it so the driving inspector wouldn't crap himself. Just starting it up cause him to decide that buckling up was a good idea.

Is this motor your's Imperial? If so, it should be big fun in whatever you're planning on putting it in.

[Imperial]

Is this motor your's Imperial? If so, it should be big fun in whatever you're planning on putting it in.

No, not my motor  ...
I just like Pontiac V8's Because of the smooth power curve and the torque.. (Almost Buick like you know!!)
But this motor really personified my own wishes regarding setup... So I just had to post it!

The Chevy /Mopar and Ford engines, and the Buick engines for that matter (stage 1 and 2 in particular you know) do get an awful amount of attention! The Pontiac I sort of think is in many way's superior to all of them! We do have classics... (Oldsmobile had the best castings!!!)

The Chevy 409, The Mopar 426 Hemi, The Oldsmobile 425 - The Toronado engine, The Chevy 327, The Ford 289, The Ford "boss 302" and (429 - Which need the oilholes redrilled or it will not perform as intended! Actually melt down!!! )
The 428 Ram Jet Ford engine, the 427 sideolier(Ford FE), The Gurney Westlake Ford Gt-40 Engine, The Olds F-85 350. The AMC 390 (Javelin SST), The Buick 455 Stage 1, I could go on for some time like this...
But all in all, some "buildsheets are just good! The engines really "hit home" ... I like that!
And when you see that a setup/combo looks great, you just have to yell: Vroom Vroom! 
 
Imperial

[lazydays]

Is this motor your's Imperial? If so, it should be big fun in whatever you're planning on putting it in.

No, not my motor  ...
I just like Pontiac V8's Because of the smooth power curve and the torque.. (Almost Buick like you know!!)
But this motor really personified my own wishes regarding setup... So I just had to post it!

The Chevy /Mopar and Ford engines, and the Buick engines for that matter (stage 1 and 2 in particular you know) do get an awful amount of attention! The Pontiac I sort of think is in many way's superior to all of them! We do have classics... (Oldsmobile had the best castings!!!)

The Chevy 409, The Mopar 426 Hemi, The Oldsmobile 425 - The Toronado engine, The Chevy 327, The Ford 289, The Ford "boss 302" and (429 - Which need the oilholes redrilled or it will not perform as intended! Actually melt down!!! )
The 428 Ram Jet Ford engine, the 427 sideolier(Ford FE), The Gurney Westlake Ford Gt-40 Engine, The Olds F-85 350. The AMC 390 (Javelin SST), The Buick 455 Stage 1, I could go on for some time like this...
But all in all, some "buildsheets are just good! The engines really "hit home" ... I like that!
And when you see that a setup/combo looks great, you just have to yell: Vroom Vroom! 
 
Imperial

watched my brother build forty to fifty engines a year for people all over the country, and the one thing I learned fast was the the Buick 455 was the torque monster king.
For shear power nothing beats a race hemi when your thinking of 500 cu. in or less, and still be able to keep it together for longer than five minutes (look at the NHRA race hemi quick 16 running at 8.50's and a 150 + mph). That's with a 3300 lb. care and a 426 cu. in. motor.
    The Ford FE engines need to have a set of exterior oil lines feeding the mains, or you got a five minute motor. You can take a 400 Mopar engine, and use Chevy rods with an offset grind on the crank for 483 cu.in. If you use Indy heads your gonna be looking at 700 hp and still keep it together (use aluminium rods). That engine will also weigh in at about 500 lb. wet! With Pontiac engines you have to watch the crank at the thrust face, unless your lucky enough to have a steel super duty crank from 1962. The tend to break cranks at the spot. Might also add that if your putting that engine in a GTO from the sixties, you'd best beef up the upper control arms or you'll crack the frame at the hinge joint. Sure miss my red 65 GTO! Might add here that the real horse power monster right now is the four banger that the guys are running in open wheel cars right now. It's a NASCAR Mopar engine made into a dry sump four cylinder. Think 1300 hp. at 35 lb. of boost from a turbo (150 cu. in.!!)
gary

[Mike B.]

I didn't see any flow numbers for the heads. I will give a wild guess of 735 Hp. The ultimate naturally aspirated 500 inch push rod motors are built for pro stock and are around 1400 hp.

[Imperial]

I didn't see any flow numbers for the heads. I will give a wild guess of 735 Hp. The ultimate naturally aspirated 500 inch push rod motors are built for pro stock and are around 1400 hp.

Well that is a good question.
This engine is from a car magazine tech article. The answer to the dyno may come soon.
But as to the flownumbers on a Edelbrock "performer" 87cc chamber 215cc runner sized head...
It's a bit dependant on the portmatching and stuff. Let's see here..
There is 4 base versions, and one "pro port" version, that can be hand ported.
I'm not sure which it is on this engine really as the "head" "build up" comes in the next issue. Soon I hope!
It uses high .641 lift with low flow numbers. Comp cams extreme "ramp" high energy cam.
Lobe separation is also a factor here. This is a torque setup as I see it. It ain't gonna make much horsepower with this little flow and that "little" cam on that big displacement! It is gonna make BIG TWIST however!!!
We love torque! Well I do anyway! Some people need to rev! I don't! I want it to "purrrr" 

Imperial

[Imperial]

learned fast was the the Buick 455 was the torque monster king.

Yup, in stock form it should give 510-511 lbs/ft of torque before 3000rpm...
But then it goes down.. it's horrendously strong up to ca 3500rpm.
But you also need more rpm.. if it could keep the torque all the way to 5400rpm... then we would have the best possible engine ever!!! That would be something!

I believe that there is a engine combo that will do almost this!!! It's a Cadillac engine that one can modify to insane driveability!
It's called a "funny nick name" that engine... don't remember.



Imperial

[Bob in St. Louis]

I believe that there is a engine combo that will do almost this!!! It's a Cadillac engine that one can modify to insane driveability!
It's called a "funny nick name" that engine... don't remember.

Hey Imperial, I've seen some guys mod a Cadillac "Northstar" engine make several hundred horsepower, is that it?
By the way, your crankshaft is spinning backwards and has excessive radial runout. 

Bob

[Imperial]

I believe that there is a engine combo that will do almost this!!! It's a Cadillac engine that one can modify to insane driveability!
It's called a "funny nick name" that engine... don't remember.

By the way, your crankshaft is spinning backwards and has excessive radial runout. 

Bob

Yeah! I'm trying to whip it into shape... but it's on a backburner and has lost its bearings completely!
I'm about to get really cranky here!!! 

About the Caddilac... I believe they started with a 500cid or bigger engine, punched it out some more.
Then they had a completely new head made for it and a trick setup as well. The story was featured I believe in Hot Rod magazine some years ago. Maybe the article is there.

Imperial

[Bob in St. Louis]

Oh, you're talking about one of those 30 year old 500', or 501's I think they were.
Bob

[Imperial]

Yeah. I think the best block to use was the -71.
Let me scan my bookmarks... just a minute..

Edit: CADILLAC engine from 2005 JEGS engine masters competition.
Bulldog Performance; Indianapolis, IN
Richard Bradshaw
"Our primary business is the manufacturing of cylinder heads, manifolds and blocks. I have been building engines off and on for over 25 years, as well as working closely with many other engine builders during our manufacturing process. Our competition entry will be a 508-cid Cadillac with 4.31 bore x 4.30 stroke, Bulldog heads, Bulldog headers, Bulldog manifold, and Bulldog oil pump. We don't have a dyno in-house, but we plan to do most of our testing on a dyno. We think we'll make in the area of 850 hp and need 1,400 to 1,450 points to win. Remember, it is average, not peak, that wins."

They were called Bulldog performance, I think they are now defunct? Not sure.
But hey, If you have a Caddy with a 472/500, that's the dude to talk to..!
Last I checked the adress was:
BullDog Performance
5602 Elmwood Avenue, #112
Indianapolis, Indiana 46203
(317) 786-9780

You also have http://www.cadillacperformanceparts.com/ in Chattanooga Tennessee. They also sell crate engines! Richard Potter. And they made a Caddy engine so powerfull that they had to change the rule book. http://tinyurl.com/yukk6t


Then you have Torque inc; Ashland Ohio (not Oregon thank you very much...)
John Walker. Also a Caddy V8 builder.
Torque, Inc.
101 East 9th Street
Ashland, Ohio 44805
(419) 651-1802

These boys think that is the 472/500 caddy that is the best engine... I don't know. But what ever!
American V8 is cool! I love it!!!

Just think about it... A 68/69 camaro with a 508 super Caddy... 700lbs/ft and smooth idle...
It will pull ALL the way... and never break, ever! Kinda looks like a good choice...
But will it go down well? I don't know.. 
What are the "boys" gonna say when you pop the hood after beating them at the redlights... ?
"Huh, what kind of mill is that?"
-
Well... it's a caddy!
"What... WHAT????"

 aa




Imperial

[Imperial]

I would like to add...
Regarding American V8 power...
This is my own thinking:
You will have to have a really strong reason to set up the engine to make maximum power above
ca 5200-5400rpm...
(The Original Pontiac Big Block did not like to go above 4500!)
In my view... On a big engine, anything above say 5500rpm is just shortening engine life!
Yeah, you get more power... But shorter life as well!
I like it low revs myself!!! And big displacement!

An exception is the Chrysler 360... a beautiful smallblock! Awesome mill! Fantastic!!! But not powerfull enough for my liking... and much to fond of revving!!!  aa (Which is a bit fun I can admit... )

Edit: The famed Caddy article... http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/0609em_cadillac_performance_parts_engine/

Look at these numbers please...
RPM     TQ       HP
2,600   555.8   275.1
2,800   571.6   304.7
3,000   575.2   328.6
3,200   569.3   346.8
3,400   565.7   366.2
3,600   580.0   397.6
3,800   605.3   437.9
4,000   630.4   480.1
4,200   645.3   516.1
4,400   664.4   556.6
4,600   679.9   595.5
4,800   691.4   631.9
5,000   696.5   663.0
5,200   698.5   691.6 Torque can (should..) theoretically top out at 5,250 rpm... This is mighty close!! Very good build!!!
5,400   696.7   716.3
5,600   689.1   734.8
5,800   677.0   747.7
6,000   669.1   764.4
6,200   656.8   775.3
6,400   639.2   778.9
Awesome!
Look at that powerband! It's automotive art!!!

Imperial

[Bob in St. Louis]

How 'bout rear mounted turbo charging??  aa
http://www.ststurbo.com/

Sound and video clips:
http://www.ststurbo.com/sound_video_clips

Hey what happened Imperial, your crank fell off! 

[Imperial]

How 'bout rear mounted turbo charging??  aa Well I've seen this too, it's more effective than underhood setups... More efficient... Look funny though! If you have fiberglass-hood it would help with keeping temps low, granted.. Fiberglass/Carbon fiber is a super heat insulator you know!
http://www.ststurbo.com/

Sound and video clips:
http://www.ststurbo.com/sound_video_clips

Hey what happened Imperial, your crank fell off!  Reload the page...

[Bob in St. Louis]

Wow, that's a nice power band. YEA BABY!!!

Yup, your cranks spinning again. I thought your engine died!

Bob

[lazydays]

I would like to add...
Regarding American V8 power...
This is my own thinking:
You will have to have a really strong reason to set up the engine to make maximum power above
ca 5200-5400rpm...
(The Original Pontiac Big Block did not like to go above 4500!)
In my view... On a big engine, anything above say 5500rpm is just shortening engine life!
Yeah, you get more power... But shorter life as well!
I like it low revs myself!!! And big displacement!

An exception is the Chrysler 360... a beautiful smallblock! Awesome mill! Fantastic!!! But not powerfull enough for my liking... and much to fond of revving!!!  aa (Which is a bit fun I can admit... )

Edit: The famed Caddy article... http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/0609em_cadillac_performance_parts_engine/

Look at these numbers please...
RPM     TQ       HP
2,600   555.8   275.1
2,800   571.6   304.7
3,000   575.2   328.6
3,200   569.3   346.8
3,400   565.7   366.2
3,600   580.0   397.6
3,800   605.3   437.9
4,000   630.4   480.1
4,200   645.3   516.1
4,400   664.4   556.6
4,600   679.9   595.5
4,800   691.4   631.9
5,000   696.5   663.0
5,200   698.5   691.6 Torque can (should..) theoretically top out at 5,250 rpm... This is mighty close!! Very good build!!!
5,400   696.7   716.3
5,600   689.1   734.8
5,800   677.0   747.7
6,000   669.1   764.4
6,200   656.8   775.3
6,400   639.2   778.9
Awesome!
Look at that powerband! It's automotive art!!!

Imperial

the 360 can be made to make a lot of power if you use the W2 or later heads. But the Indy heads are almost as good for a lot less money. Might toss in here that a P-7 motor with multi carbs will make over 2.25 hp. per cu. in., and stay together.
gary

[Imperial]

Well Gary... This 358 R5P7 makes 800 break-necks... but I'm sure that sounds familiar...



 

Imperial

[James Romeyn]

Yes, lots of torque...more than my ole '63 Bug...maybe!

[lazydays]

Well Gary... This 358 R5P7 makes 800 break-necks... but I'm sure that sounds familiar...



 

Imperial

actually the good heads were banned by NASCAR a couple years ago, but they are still king in the sprint car world. They were getting 850 hp dyno pulls from a 355 engine with the small Holley that NASCAR requires. At the time it was a hundred horsepower more than GM or Ford could do. That four banger I spoke of is made off that same engine, but has the 318 bore and stroke. The head flows as much air as a D-2 or D-3 hemi head from the sixties! That four cylinder engine will bust the 300 mph barrier in a sedan this August when they go back to Bonneville. In 2005, it killed the record on it shake down pass to make sure the car went strait. That was with 20 PSI boost from the turbo, not the 35 PSI it was set up to run with. That same motor in a 32 Ford blasted the old record buy almost 45 mph two years ago, and they said they didn't have the good motor in the car when they made the record run. Hear they are after the unblown record in August with almost 400 horsepower out of 150 cu. in.
gary